Talk:Elon Musk/Archive 21

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Lack of Citation

There isn’t a single citation starting with the paragraphs directly below his signature extending to the early life section. There are several statements that could use citation. WhowinsIwins (talk) 09:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Citations are generally avoided in the lead (see WP:LEADCITE), as the lead should summarise the rest of the article. Anything that's in the lead should be cited later on in the article. — Czello ^(music) 09:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Ideally, the lede is meant to summarise the key points of the content of the article, and the infobox also adheres to the mandate. BarntToust 19:27, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

NPOV Bedrohung der Demokratie und Oligarchie sollte eine größere Gewichtung bekommen

in der aktuellen Version des Artikels bekommt die Beobachtung, dass Elon Musk in seiner Kommunikation memes verwendet eine größere Aufmerksamkeit und priorisierung in der Gliederung des Artikels als die Beobachtung beispielsweise eines Wirtschaftsnobelpreisträgers, dass man ihn als Oligarch und betrogen für die Demokratie sehen kann. ich denke das ist eine unausgewogene Sache und sollte entsprechend mit dem entsprechenden Baustein zu Beginn des Artikels dokumentiert werden, was denkt ihr? Aberlin2 (talk) 16:24, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

uah sorry, I was accidentally in the wrong language version. this comment was meant for the German Wikipedia Aberlin2 (talk) 16:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

How to appropropratly document the perception of Musk as an oligarch in this article ?

I Think I already brought up the topic once before, but I feel due to current events, the Topic needs an update anyway. Maybe my Question could become part of the FAQ, since I guess I might not be the Only one considering Musk as an Oligarch. And their are a lot of International News Article where Musk is considered an Oligarch so why not document this perception in this article? Aberlin2 (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

That seems like it would make an appropriate addition to the section Elon Musk#Public perception. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I removed this from the lead because it wasn't in the body and is pretty serious to level in a BLP. It is not a significant accusation besides a few opinion pieces, so it doesn't even belong in this article. What could be added is mentions of his outsize influence in politics, however that's already mentioned in the final paragraph of the lead. Bill Williams 00:51, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

He seems to meet the Oxford Language Dictionary definition based on recent events ("very rich business leader with a great deal of political influence"), but agreed this is not referenced/corroborated enough with satisfactory sources to be beyond a mention in the Elon Musk#Public perception section Nicnote^{say hello!}_contribs 01:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@Nicnote I think it should mean something for his representation in the article that he is an Oligarch based on the definition.

otherwise the article is not meeting the criteria of neutrality because it would hide this aspect Aberlin2 (talk) 16:38, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Bill Williams that referring Musk as Oligarch in the Lead, would likely be a violation of WP:BLP, due to the negative connotations associted with Oligarchs. Also, most current WP:RS sources do not refer to Musk as an Oligarch, so it would likely violate WP:RS and WP:DUE too. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 09:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I think I should only be mentioned in the article body with relevant context using NPOV language after achieving WP:Consensus, due to its contentious nature in a BLP article. RogerYg (talk) 09:33, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Born in South Africa

On the page about Karl Marx, it says "Karl Marx (German: [kaʁl ˈmaʁks]; 5 May 1818 – 14 March 1883) was a German-born". In the first paragraph of this article, I think it should say "Elon Reeve Musk FRS (/ˈiːlɒn/; born June 28, 1971) is a South African-born businessman known for his." Just because he's a citizen of USA and UK doesn't mean you need to remove the fact he's South Africa guy. Why isn't his birth mentioned in the first paragraph. It could also say "South African-born American" or simply "South African-born." DisneyGuy744 (talk) 23:37, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

See the FAQ at the top. QRep2020 (talk) 06:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

As previosly discussed, per MOS:BLPLEAD , current citizenship "American" should get priority.

Previous consensus is not to include South-African born in the first sentence, but mention it later in the lead. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) RogerYg (talk) 01:18, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

ok DisneyGuy744 (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Somehow, the article short desciption still says South African born businessman, which should be changed to something more appropriate per previous discussions. RogerYg (talk) 09:35, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

THat is not the lead. Slatersteven (talk) 11:39, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

DOGE is a notable aspect - needs to be briefly mentioned in First paragraph

As per WP:LEAD and WP:Firstparagraph, DOGE has emerged as a widely reported notable aspect, and hence deserves mention in the first paragraph of the lead. RogerYg (talk) 01:25, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@RogerYg yes, like the perception of Musk as oligarch which is now at the end of the article Aberlin2 (talk) 16:27, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

When he takes office, yes we can, until then we are not a newspaper. Slatersteven (talk) 16:28, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Update Elon Musk’s Net Worth to $400 Billion

Elon Musk’s Net Worth on December 11, 2024 has reached over $400 Billion this has been reported by Bloomberg, Yahoo finance and NBC News 96.60.168.239 (talk) 17:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

And tomorrow that will change, and next month there will be new news report on his wealth, we are wp:notnews. Slatersteven (talk) 17:39, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Was the term "Musk family" something that existed before Elon Musk?

Was the term "Musk family" something that existed before Elon Musk? I highly doubt it. If I am right that this term didn't exist then the sentence "A member of the wealthy South African Musk family, Musk was born in Pretoria and briefly attended the University of Pretoria before immigrating to Canada at the age of 18" is inappropriate because you can't retroactively apply a term like that to him being born into the Musk family when the term arised with his rise. Alexysun (talk) 23:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

His parents were both notable before his birth... And even if they weren't of course you can retroactively apply a term like that ("X family" is generally the term used to refer to a family in the Western European naming tradition). If you come from that naming tradition it would be perfectly alright to say that "Alexy was born into the Sun family in North Wikiland" even if you're the only notable member of your family. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:00, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back My surname is not Sun. But anyways no you can't because "X family" implies it being a notable family that people know by name. Alexysun (talk) 12:30, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

It does not imply that. It only implies a male head of family with the surname Musk. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:17, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Second. QRep2020 (talk) 18:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Well as the family existed, and as it was called Musk, and as the surname is 100's of years old (dating back to the norman conquest), yes. Slatersteven (talk) 13:02, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

New article

Tornetta v. Musk, et al.

The Last Hungry Cat (talk) 00:49, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@The Last Hungry Cat sorry I don't understand: what does this comment mean? Aberlin2 (talk) 16:41, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that when someone creates a new article, they are supposed to post links to the new article in relevant places, so as to let other editors know about it. I will be more clear the next time that I do this. The Last Hungry Cat (talk) 16:55, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Elon musk political party

Is true that elon must have been "independent party" until 2024 when he officially became Republican. So I think the party should be updated. Thisasia  ^(Talk) 01:24, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

SEC detail in Lead

The lead is already long, and SEC detail seems undue given the scope and length of the lead. Also, it may not be per WP:BLP and WP:NPOV to only mention one sided detail on SEC in the lead. Thanks. In 2018 the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) sued Musk, alleging that he had falsely announced that he had secured funding for a private takeover of Tesla. To settle the case Musk stepped down as the chairman of Tesla and paid a $20 million fine. RogerYg (talk) RogerYg (talk) 15:28, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

A more recent photograph is needed

Musk is one of the most prominent public figures on Earth, and his physical appearance has changed significantly since 2018. A more recent cover image is needed. Here is an adequate option from 2023: The Prime Minister, Shri Narendra Modi meeting Mr. Elon Musk in New York, USA on June 20, 2023 (2) (cropped).jpg

Firecat93 (talk) 05:13, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

@Firecat93 Is this the best option? It would be an ok choice, but it’s fairly low resolution. — HTGS (talk) 23:19, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Here are two possible, high quality alternatives:

2022: USAFA Hosts Elon Musk (Image 1 of 17) (cropped).jpg

2022: Elon Musk Colorado 2022 (cropped2).jpg Firecat93 (talk) 03:41, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

This discussion already occurred at Talk:Elon Musk/Archive 20#RfC: Infobox image. The infobox image will not be changed unless another RfC is held; any attempts to do so now would fall under WP:SNOWBALL. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 03:09, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Here are two possible, high quality alternatives that were not previously available:

2022: USAFA Hosts Elon Musk (Image 1 of 17) (cropped).jpg

2022: Elon Musk Colorado 2022 (cropped2).jpg Firecat93 (talk) 03:41, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

New Cover Photograph

Here are some possible, high quality alternatives:

2022: USAFA Hosts Elon Musk (Image 1 of 17) (cropped).jpg

2022: Elon Musk Colorado 2022 (cropped2).jpg

2023 (Poorer Quality): Elon Musk in 2023 (cropped).jpg

Firecat93 (talk) 03:40, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Nothing from this year? He doesn't look like he did in 2022 anymore Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:27, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Here are two from 2024 (the second can be cropped). Both are not very clear -

Elon Musk - March 28, 2024 (cropped).jpg

Ftninplwuaady5s-18796494.jpg Firecat93 (talk) 07:19, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

That is a shame, I agree that neither of those is clear enough for us to use... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:20, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Shouldn't they delete his video game usage?

It seems like unnecessary trivia. Starlighsky (talk) 12:45, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Slatersteven (talk) 12:55, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

It seems to have gotten signficant coverage so its not trivia whatever your personal opinion of it may be. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:39, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I just want to point out that media coverage as reliable information could be a risk for Wikipedia, especially in law. Large media coverage of a court case is one thing. However, the underlying legal theory about the media event in another thing. Starlighsky (talk) 18:35, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I suspect that this isn't a response to me, but if it is please clarify the relevence. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:15, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I truly only meant it about Wikipedia and media coverage as a sort of weight for notability. It is from my experience in terms of editing court case articles and so on. It is just something where I disagree with the standards on Wikipedia. It truly was not in response to the post, but a rare moment where I could bring up my problem with the Wikipedia standards on law articles. Starlighsky (talk) 00:32, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Oligarch

Isn't whether he's an oligarch nothing more than a point of view? 97.105.197.35 (talk) 22:40, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but if RS say it we repeat it. Slatersteven (talk) 13:39, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Addition to the Lead

I would like to propose adding the following to the lead:

"Due to his considerable influence over American politics, government, media, and industry, Musk has been described as an oligarch." (Or, American oligarch)

This subject is already mentioned in the body. Roman Abramovich is described as an oligarch in the lead as this perception is widespread. With Musk, it is heavily discussed and debated. Therefore, while shouldn't label Musk as an "oligarch", it should still be noted that he has been described in this manner due to his influence over government, politics, media, and industry.

For context, Musk has been described as an oligarch by prominent commentators, academics, and experts, including Nobel-prize winning economist Paul Krugman, former US Secretary of Labor Robert Reich, and Former U.S. National Security Council Official in the Trump administration, Fiona Hill. Firecat93 (talk) 03:30, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Support: To start off the discussion, I (author), support this course of action Firecat93 (talk) 04:08, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, IMO it is due in the body but not in the lead. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:44, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per every comment I have made in every thread about this. Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Founder of Tesla

Elon Musk was one of the founders of Tesla, and that should be mentioned in the article, not that he was just an "early investor". Elon Musk has repeatedly claimed to have come up with the name "Tesla Motors", and the concept. He suggested it to Eberhard as they were both mildly involved(test driving and such) in another EV project called T-Zero. They did not own the rights to the name "Tesla Motors", since a guy called Brad Siewert had already registered it for his own company. While Elon officially didn't join the company before 6 months after Eberhard and Tarpenning had incorporated it, at the time the company was just a shell corp with no employees, no offices, no funding, no IP, no designs, no prototype, just this general idea of commercializing the T-Zero. First thing Elon Musk did after officially joining Tesla was to buy the rights to the name from Brad Siewert. Elon Musk was introduced to the T-Zero car by JB Straubel, who later became Tesla's first Chief Technology Officer. After experiencing the T-Zero, Musk was inspired and wanted to commercialize it, and the AC Propulsion guys(who made the T-Zero) connected him with Eberhard and Tarpenning, as they had the same idea. In Eberhard's lawsuit against Tesla, he wanted to be recognized as one of only two founders of the company(alongside Marc Tarpenning), a claim that was rejected by the judge. The judge struck down Eberhard's claim, and this decision was based on the broader context of Tesla's founding and the contributions of others, including Musk, JB Straubel, and Ian Wright, who were also considered integral to the company's early development. Obviously Eberhard has his own version of events, that are not compatible with Elon Musk's version, and the truth might be somewhere in the middle, but at the end of the day, this was dealt with in court, the court rejected Eberhard's claims, and concluded that Elon Musk was integral to the founding of Tesla... so, it seems only right that Wikipedia accept that there were(legally recognized) 5 founders of Tesla, including Elon Musk. I have not made any changes to the article, but just wanted to put this forward here, so others can evaluate whether to do so. FindTheBalance (talk) 21:49, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Musk was not a founder of Tesla. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:57, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

That's Eberhards narrative. It's easy to find plenty of articles that say the opposite, that Elon Musk was the founder of Tesla.

Here is Elon's perspective:

https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-debunks-tesla-history-fake-news/

Elon Musk came up with the name:

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/why-elon-musk-named-his-electric-car-tesla/

Elon Musk was one of the founders("Musk is also among the founders of Tesla,"):

https://www.reuters.com/article/tesla-suit-idUKN2131161020090921/

And again, the court ruled with Elon Musk, dismissed Eberhards claim that he and Tarpenning were the only founders. That should be the final word in this.

https://www.cnet.com/culture/teslas-musk-gloats-over-eberhard-ruling/

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-cofounder-eberhard-drops-his-lawsuit-against-tesla-musk-2009-8 FindTheBalance (talk) 01:05, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Thanks for sharing these good sources on Court ruling. Article needs to be updated to reflect this information. RogerYg (talk) 09:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

The article body has relevant details, but its not reflected in the Lead yet.

A 2009 lawsuit settlement with Eberhard designated Musk as a Tesla co-founder, along with Tarpenning and two others.

https://www.cnet.com/news/tesla-motors-founders-now-there-are-five/

https://www.fastcompany.com/1367866/tesla-lawsuit-drama-ends-five-company-founders-emerge RogerYg (talk) 09:39, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Added in lead as a separate sentence. "He is considered a co-founder of Tesla motors" with references. Other editors may consider whether to include it along with early investor mention. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 10:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Agree with User talk:Muboshgu. Existing article reflects norms followed on other, closely related Wikipedia articles.

Please do not make sweeping changes to a L5 BLP article without allowing for numerous participants to weigh in. 15:55, 7 December 2024 (UTC) QRep2020 (talk) 15:55, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

The article @Muboshgu linked to is simply repeating the rather misleading narrative that Eberhard promoted, but that claim was, as I pointed out, dismissed by Judge John L. Grandsaert after evaluating all the relevant facts. Even though Eberhard and Tarpenning *registered* the company a few months before Elon officially joined, it's fair to say that the company begun as they all got together, that's when they got funding, that's when they got the rights to the name, that's when they started developing plans, designs and eventually prototypes.

It seems to me that the most correct thing to do is to make a distinction between Eberhard and Tarpenning "incorporating" Tesla, and Eberhard, Tarpenning, Musk, Straubel and Wright being the founders of Tesla. FindTheBalance (talk) 21:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi FindTheBalance (talk), you seem very knowledgeable about this founder issue. Sadly knowledge alone is not valued on Wikipedia, we need good references / articles to back our knowledge.

I tried to briefly add that "Musk is one of the founders of Tesla" in the lead, with decent refernces, but it was taken down, as several editors seem to be against adding that to lead, even though its in the body.

I guess, we need more good references, and more TALK page support to get a fair lead on Tesla. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 19:09, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Also FindTheBalance (talk), probably you should start with Tesla wiki page first, and then try on this page. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 19:11, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I see that you are already working on Tesla page as well. Thanks. 20:35, 18 December 2024 (UTC) RogerYg (talk) 20:35, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Bio inaccuracies

According to Elon musk's biographer, this page has a lot of factual inaccuracies such as him never having received a degree.

See https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/the-truth-about-musk-from-his-biographer Sangaof (talk) 07:12, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, do they say he never received a degree? Slatersteven (talk) 10:40, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Crystal balling

Do we really need a list of posts he might get at some point in the future? Slatersteven (talk) 20:29, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

No, we don't. Not in an article as long as this already is. It's WP:UNDUE. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Why only ‘American’

Musk is introduced as ‘American’ - not South African-Canadian-American. He still has all three citizenships, and that order tracks his life. Why not include all three? Harsimaja (talk) 03:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

See FAQ. Slatersteven (talk) 11:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

no work permit when working for zip2

His lack of work permit when founding zip2 is relevant given his views on open borders, the fact he didn't have US citizenship yet illegally worked for in the US on a student visa should be mentioned. It's mentioned later in the article but if the less mentions zip2, it should mention that his work for zip2 was illegal.

Alternatively the lede should strip any mention of the illegal work.

Sources: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/26/elon-musk-illegal-immigration https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2024/10/26/elon-musk-immigration-status/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2024/10/27/what-elon-musk-working-illegally-says-about-the-immigration-system/ 99.189.97.98 (talk) 03:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Attacks on wikipedia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

obviously it's on going but how he feels about us and other "legacy media" should be added 172.101.136.35 (talk) 04:33, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Why? Slatersteven (talk) 11:38, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

He’s made several tweets bashing Wikipedia, asking people to stop donating to the platform, and accusing it of misinformation

https://www.newsweek.com/elon-musk-takes-aim-wikipedia-fund-raising-editing-political-woke-2005742 KevinTheSeaCucumber (talk) 12:42, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Being discussed above, we do not need another thread on it. Slatersteven (talk) 12:43, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Didn't see that oopsie poopsie

Oki we're good then 172.101.136.35 (talk) 15:11, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dickipedia

Musk's proposal is still valid. So, he says, "Rename Wikipedia to Dickipedia, I'll donate 1bln$". It's a notable news and opinion about Wikipedia that shall be mentioned in his biography. 109.245.199.130 (talk) 07:45, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@109.245.199.130

yes I think it should be Mentioned in context with the other attacks on Wikipedia and DEI. could you please add a reliable source for your claim. Aberlin2 (talk) 11:34, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I'd say this is the only context in which you could mention it. However, if there are no reliable sources for his beef with Wikipedia, and it's not notable enough to have been widely reported, it isn't worth it. One random sentence plonked in the middle of the article about something he tweeted isn't worth it. If we did that for everything he tweeted, we'd never hear the end of it.—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) ({{ping}} me!) 11:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

No, as it tells us nothing about anything. Slatersteven (talk) 11:47, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

It is covered at Views of Elon Musk#Wikipedia Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:42, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back it should be covered in the planned section: attacks on Wikipedia and DEI Aberlin2 (talk) 23:02, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Investment in Bihar India

Bihar 103.170.70.59 (talk) 11:26, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Source? Slatersteven (talk) 11:27, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

@Slatersteven good idea! Dennisforeign205 (talk) 15:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Elon Musk is an American

MOS:CONTEXTBIO provides the following.

"The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was such when they became notable."

It is clear that the context is American, and it is not complex. Remember, Wikipedia is not written for the editors who are experts about Elon Musk, Wikipedia is written for readers who look up about Elon Musk the first time. As such, our goal is to orient the readers, not to prevent edit wars between editors. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

He seems to have Canadian, South African, and US nationality. Slatersteven (talk) 19:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

He is currently permanent resident of the US since 1995 which is the entire time he becomes notable. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Which is irrelevant as we are discussing his nationality, not his residency. Slatersteven (talk) 19:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

"The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable." There is only one - American. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

He is not primarily known for being an American, he is primarily known as a businessman. If you take that away, his being American would, not get him an article. I also more that many sources discus his status as a tri-national. Time for others to chip in. Slatersteven (talk) 19:37, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

He is primarily known as an American businessman, he is not that famous elsewhere. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

We've been through this question countless times on this talk page. MOS:CONTEXTBIO says "should usually", not "must", and the long-standing consensus is that his nationalities should not be included in the opening sentence, as set out in the FAQ above. Rosbif73 (talk) 07:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The point is that the FAQ is wrong in saying his nationalities is complex. As you noted, MOS:CONTEXTBIO simply says that he "should usually" be called American businessman. WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE applies. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Sources seem to indicate that he gave up his Canadian and South African citizenships when he became an American (that would be normal too, its really rare for someone to keep a second citizenship and succesfully naturalize in the US), meaning that he was never a trinational and is currently only a national of one country (USA). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Please produce one that he has, anything else is OR. Slatersteven (talk) 10:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I can't find any that definitively state it one way or another, it seems that Musk is very private with his immigration history and what he says in public is apparently contradictory. I also would note that you're demanding sources but never actually provided any in the first place, what is your source that his status is tri-national? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

We have sources saying that at one time he was at least one of each, this is why we do not say it. We do not know. Slatersteven (talk) 11:09, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

So we do not have sources which discusses his tri-national status? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:56, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Make a list of the most notable South Africans in history and he would be in the top 5 among Mandela, Tutu, de Klerk, and Theron… Trillfendi (talk) 21:27, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

@Kenneth Kho yes agreed! Dennisforeign205 (talk) 15:05, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Musk political career

I wonder why Musk and Vivek political infobox was constantly removed or is DODGE not a govt agency but just an institution? Thisasia  ^(Talk) 07:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps it's too soon? Firecat93 (talk) 08:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Because it isn’t a real government body in any sense of the word. 47.214.192.148 (talk) 03:56, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

It will be added when its formed follosing jan 20. We cant say that Musk co-chairs a government agency, if that government agency doesnt exist yet EarthDude (talk) 16:14, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

new section:attacks on Wikimedia and DEI

since Elon Musk attacked Wikipedia multiple times but auto attacked other projects and business over DEI i think this topic should get a whole section and we got start by collecting sources like the following: https://nypost.com/2024/12/25/business/elon-musk-urges-supporters-not-to-donate-to-wikipedia-over-dei/ Aberlin2 (talk) 23:05, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Stuff like this has no business in the article and referring to it as an "attack" isn't NPOV. Big Thumpus (talk) 00:20, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Simp all you want, but what other term would you use for his constant attacks on Wikipedia?

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1871443771424116954 99.189.97.98 (talk) 03:26, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

We don't have any right to interfere on how anyone or elon think of Wikipedia, everyone is free to talk however they want. This isn't for censoring and irrelevant stuffs won't be added to the articles. Thisasia  ^(Talk) 07:46, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

But isn't simply mentioning the fact that Mr. Musk - who is an very close advisor to President-Elect Donald J. Trump - called for his followers to not donate to "Wokepedia" (as he and LibsOfTikTok have called Wikipedia) until "they [meant as Wikipedia] restore balance to their editing authority"? Gelbphoenix (talk) 14:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

If (and when) RS report this has had some kind of impact, maybe. Slatersteven (talk) 14:47, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Come back and try having this conversation again if Elon's personal opinion results in an obvious, broader movement of people not donating to Wikipedia specifically for the reasons he gives. Until then, this is purely speculative and only serves to cast him in a negative light, and is therefore WP:UNDUE. Big Thumpus (talk) 14:50, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Big Thumpus

no, he really publicly attacked Wikipedia on a public Platform with quite a lot of followers.

see also : Wikipedia:Call a spade a spade

Aberlin2 (talk) 17:11, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

See WP:NYPOST. Atm, this fails WP:PROPORTION and WP:NOTNEWS. That might change at some point, but for now it falls under "He says a lot of stuff, that doesn't mean it has to be in the article." There is more coverage on this like [1], but per WP:DAILYKOS we shouldn't use that either. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:00, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

we really don't need to include every beef that elon musk has with a company or product or celebrity on here. See WP:NOTGOSSIP.

Until he actually does something noteworthy, it is WP:UNDUE. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:27, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Per [2] it's possible donations to WMF increased a little because of Musk's recent comments. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Oligarch

Adding the description of oligarch to Elon Musk would be the best way to describe both the power and influence he has in America. He has surpassed the qualifications and should thusly be categorized as one. NorthCentralKing (talk) 01:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:UNDUE Big Thumpus (talk) 02:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Agree accorsing to merriam- webster dictionary:

-oligarch: a member or supporter of oligarchy.

-oligarchy:

1

government by the few

2

a government in which a small group exercises control especially for corrupt and selfish purposes

also  : a group exercising such control

An oligarchy ruled the nation.

3

an organization under oligarchic control

Millionaires and billionaires can be considered as few in relation with the overall US population. A government entirely or with a majority of them, qualify Renzocht (talk) 03:00, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. It should be mentioned in the lead. Firecat93 (talk) 03:37, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Whilst I think that is a good description for American billionaires, I think it is not politically neutralKevinTheSeaCucumber (talk) 12:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

How is it not politically neutral? NorthCentralKing (talk) 03:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

The oligarch bit in the article

This is the same discussion, same points being made against it being in the lede, are the same as why it shouldn't be in the article. I removed it but have been reverted by someone who has years of almost all their edits related to Elon Musk. http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Elon_Musk&diff=1266022297&oldid=1265987435 Just look at the headlines of the referenced news articles. The bias news media is against him for supporting Trump, so they ignore all the other wealthy people and the media which have been influencing politics in America since forever, and focus on him. They aren't calling the billionaires that donated money to their side or influence news media they own for their point of view, by the term oligarch. And the "real president" nonsense is just a ridiculous narrative with no proof that anyone was dumb enough to believe it was real. Dream Focus 16:42, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

yeah, there's been a massive enshittification of pretty much all forms of journalism online nowadays. Think if you've got concerns about overbearing bias in the news, you should take things to WP:RSNB to have them discussed. BarntToust 16:51, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Its not the same discussion... And its "biased" not "bias" (even when accounting for the litany of errors your argument is stupid) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:54, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

errors of grammar, yet as we know is the indisputable law on the internet, a simple spelling error invalidates one's entire argument. BarntToust 18:24, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Thats why I said that errors aside its a stupid argument, from the first sentence to the last its low quality dribble. There is nothing in there of substance to discuss, if they actually want to make a policy and guideline based argument worthy of serious discussion they are free to do so. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

The statement is properly constructed, features several citations, and the citations come from notable and reliable third-party publications. 09:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC) QRep2020 (talk) 09:09, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I am discussing whether or not that part should be in the article. We don't list every single thing anyone ever said about someone they didn't like, nor is the "real president" nonsense relevant since it didn't catch on, they gave up on it rather quickly. Dream Focus 21:48, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Can somebody reverse this edit?

http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Elon_Musk&diff=prev&oldid=1259789914 It was decided back in June link that this should be removed for several reasons, among them that there's no sources stating the family was wealthy at the time of his birth. Tikaboo (talk) 18:40, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

I recall no such consensus. Slatersteven (talk) 18:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Well the arguments in favour fell apart and nobody contested it... since then has any sources been found stating the Musk family was wealthy when Elon was born? If not it should be removed as unsourced. Tikaboo (talk) 18:56, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

I do not recall that at all, so lets discusses it again, but this time as a formal RFC. Slatersteven (talk) 18:58, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Don't unsourced things simply get removed? Once it's been sourced an RFC might be needed to resolve the quality of the source/other sources contradicting it/whether it's still worth of inclusion in the lead. Tikaboo (talk) 19:03, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 January 2025

Current Line: "A member of the wealthy South African Musk family, Musk was born in Pretoria and briefly attended the University of Pretoria."

Suggested Change: "Elon Musk was born in Pretoria, South Africa, to parents Errol Musk, who was involved in engineering and property development, and Maye Musk, a model and dietitian."

Musk himself has said he was not born into wealth, as has his mother. There have also been a number of articles written backing this up.

I have stopped donating to wiki because of the woke nature of it, and to see this further amplifies my feelings of distrust. Lesleyjohnson (talk) 23:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

not done. There is an open RFC about this topic. Rainsage (talk)

Kekius Maximus/ Elon new Identity

Elon changing his name in X handle to kekius Maximus, does he have any affiliations to the new Kekius Maximus Token and how this should be added in his article page? Thisasia  ^(Talk) 13:57, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

here are different sources across the web

Elon new Identity;

Economictimes.com

Indiatoday.com

elon x handle

New Kekius Maximus crypto token at coinmarketcap.com Thisasia  ^(Talk) 14:21, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

I know that really makes me happy and I’m sorry I messed things up Penny Guest 62.30.156.112 (talk) 23:43, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Source? Slatersteven (talk)

Thank you for adding these, after I asked. Now is this a permanent name change, or just some bit of "look at me ism"? Slatersteven (talk) 14:27, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

We do not need to document his every brain WP:FART. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:31, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes that's right but I taught changes in individuals Identity is very vital to be overlooked. Thisasia  ^(Talk) 17:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Just as @Slatersteven said, is this a permanent change or just something trivial. Thisasia  ^(Talk) 17:02, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Are you arguing with yourself? Slatersteven (talk) 17:10, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

What are you trying to say? Thisasia  ^(Talk) 17:16, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

A display name is not an "identity". – Muboshgu (talk) 17:36, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

But is this different from celebrities stage names? Well I don't have sufficient knowledge of Wikipedia policy, sorry if being too ignorant. Thisasia  ^(Talk) 17:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Doja Cat once changed her name to "fart" and "christmas" on Twitter. Neither of those were encyclopedic, and neither is this. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 17:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

"Adrian Dittman" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Adrian Dittman has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 January 7 § Adrian Dittman until a consensus is reached. ^Falling_Gravity 03:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Nationality

Why is his nationality not mentioned? I feel like it would be pretty easy to say, “South African-born American-Canadian businessman”, as several other language wikis already do. Arcanehornet (talk) 15:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

See threads above and in the archives as to why. Slatersteven (talk) 15:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Edit: Correcting the abbreviation of the SPD

There is a error in this part of the article "[...] Rolf Mützenich, leader of the SDP in the Bundestag [...]" which is found here.

The abbreviation of the Social democratic party of Germany is not "SDP" - It is "SPD" as it is in the existing article (Social Democratic Party of Germany). Gelbphoenix (talk) 15:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Reminder that WP:BLP applies to this article

A Gentle reminder: This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Take extra care to use high-quality sources. Material about living persons should not be added when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism; see more information on sources. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 16:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi Knowledgework69, A gentle reminder of WP:BLP and WP:RS policies, and to avoid contentious claims, where possible. Please note that reference standards are higher per WP:BLP for making potentially libelous claims against a living person, such as Elon Musk. Contentious content and claims from questionable sources may be removed and can be discussed here.

Please note the list of Reliable sources per WP:RS below:

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources

Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 17:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Can we (please) not turn this into a user conduct page, there are places for that, and they are not article talk pages. Slatersteven (talk) 17:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Second. QRep2020 (talk) 14:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

It's a relevant gentle reminder as some claims are being added using Unreliable sources, which may violate WP:BLP and should be addressed on TALK page. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 17:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

That isn't what you did... You don't address a single such claim unless I'm missing something, there are no diffs or links to the page here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:19, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

British Government dispute

@Slatersteven I would like to know why you have removed my edit in the international politics section on the continuance of the current dispute with the British State, all information added was notable, sourced and factual, and is currently being widley covered by all major media outlets in the UK as well as political news outlets globally. I believe it is in the interest of this article that that information be contained. Knowledgework69 (talk) 14:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Its not a dispute, it is him gobbing off. The article is already too large and we really cannot have everything he says added as if its some pronouncement from god. He is not even British, so his impact will be negligible. If it actually has some impact, then it might be included, but not just "ohh look, at Musk". Slatersteven (talk) 14:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

If he was just a business man waffling rubbish I would agree, The argument though for these comments, is musk is soon to be apart of the US Administration as co-chair of DOGE as well as a close companion of the incoming US President and these comments by a US Political figure has the potential to put a strain on the special relationship in the last 30 minutes or so the Lib Dem leader has made a statement calling for the US Ambassador to be summoned to ask why a presumptive nominee of the incoming administration is openly calling for the UK Government to be overthrown, on top of this a US Political Appointee Nominee openly calling for the Prime Minister of a friendly nation to be jailed as well as calling for MPs to be arrested which is on top of him openly supporting a jailed far right activist as a political figure, which he now is, making comments such as these are relevant to his article, as long as his comments are being widely covered by news outlets and being responded to by the highest levels of government, e.g the prime minister making a statement in a press conference I would say they are relevant. Knowledgework69 (talk) 15:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Which is not actually going to be an actual ministry. And the Lib-Dems are not in government. Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Its a presidential commission which, operate in conjunction with the Executive Office of the President while it wont be an executive department like the DoD it is still operated under the authority of the president the main difference is it just doesn't have senate approval, he is still an incoming political figure of the US Executive and is closely associated with President Elect Trump, examples such as musk giving speeches at many campaign rallys as well as him being involved with high level government talks such as him being a principal advisor in the room when President Elect trump called President Zelensky of Ukraine, The Lib Dems aren't in government but are still the third largest party of the United Kingdom and their leader is still a Member of Parliament, but regardless of that his comments are being commented on by senior Government Officials, including the Prime Minister and Ministers, as well as Devolved Government officials. Knowledgework69 (talk) 15:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Is dominating the news cycle not impactful enough? A political party’s survival/dominance wholly rests on its ability to control the narrative and the news cycle, which Musk has been preventing Labour from doing. It’s very naive to say these aren’t impactful Kowal2701 (talk) 19:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

This is trivial gobshiting, and nothing more. So I oppose adding it. When it has a real impact we can, as in it affects a UK election or Anglo-Am4rican relations. Slatersteven (talk) 15:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree that his comments are absurd and ranty but the fact remains he is a US Political figure, who is making comments about matters such as overthrowing a democratically elected government of an allied nation, now that he is a political figure in close proximity to the incoming us president his words as a matter of interest should, if they receive a response from government as these have, be discussed in his article, as it is currently headline news not just in the UK but in a number of outlets around the world which shows clear notability and one common thread between all the media attention is to mention that Musk is a person who will be part of the Second Trump Administration, due to this position not him being a business man is why this is being reported so much, ergo i believe his comments and reaction from the Government are relevant to this article and I believe achieves both WP:N and WP:REL Knowledgework69 (talk) 15:41, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

We don't include everything that political figures say and do, in accordance with WP:NOTNEWS. "Breaking news" sources are considered as primary sources and should be avoided. We should only be including things if they appear in reliable secondary sources which contain analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts. Much of the Politics section of the article could do with being pared back for this very reason. Rosbif73 (talk) 16:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Thats a red herring... Nobody is proposing that we include everything that this figure does or says and given the level of coverage this clearly meets our due weight standard (that is it appears in multiple high quality secondary sources which contain analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

@Slatersteven

Musk's comments today towards the British Government as well as other comments "interfering" on European politics have now been condemned in press conferences by the President of France, Emmanuel Macron as well as by Prime Minister of Norway Jonas Gahr Støre which also joins previous comments made by the Chancellor of Germany's spokesperson in relation to musk's comments and endorsements on the German Federal Election This shows clearly that his comments in relation to European politics are notable and relevant to be included in his article Knowledgework69 (talk) 16:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

And when it actually has an impact we can revisit this. Slatersteven (talk) 16:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with SlaterSteven and Rosbif73 that less can be more. It's undoubtedly of encyclopedic relevance that the world's richest man is making statements on European politics and European governments are responding, but not all of Musk's statements nor all the responses have to be mentioned. I know it's an essay and not policy but WP:NTRUMP is a guideline on another person who regularly makes the news for making crude statements. I think the page Rupert Murdoch is an example of showing in broader strokes how a billionaire has influenced politics around the world.

References

Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree that the page should not be overran with unimportant information, however I do agree the comments made by Musk directly attacking the British Government, and other British and European institutions are of encyclopaedic value, the vast majority of his X "rants" aren't included nor do I think most should be. I agree with @Unknown Temptation that Murdoch's page is a good example of a Billionaires influence in politics, given this I suggest that musk's political views section be made a full section titled Political Activities, with a main article template link to Views of Elon Musk as referenced @Horse Eye's Back by , with the primary text of that section focusing on Political Activates in the United States, but giving each country where musk has had Significant political views or debate be given its own subsection to briefly summarise major examples similarly to Rupert Murdoch page.

I believe it could be structured as such

- - -

Politics and Political Activities

Main Article: Views of Elon Musk

(United States Politics detailed here with necessary subsections as needed, eg maga support, doge etc)

- Political Activity in the United Kingdom

- Political Activity in Germany

- Wider international Political Activity Knowledgework69 (talk) 18:02, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back@Rosbif73@Unknown Temptation@Slatersteven Knowledgework69 (talk) 18:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

You were just provided with articles about it having an impact... Comments are impact. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with @Horse Eye's Back that comments from government are impact Knowledgework69 (talk) 18:05, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

The UK paragraph can definitely be condensed, so it's less "he said this" "then he replied with this" "then he said this". It's worth looking at how sources provide context for the dispute in articles like this BBC one (6 Jan) and this FT one Kowal2701 (talk) 19:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks to @Kowal2701 making me aware of the secondary sources, and in adtion to more found in search I have added a more condensed summary of musk's comments from Sunday-Monday, surrounding the press conference of PM Starmer where he responds to musk which has now been analysed by Sky News's Beth Rigby, on top of this I have added the ITN interview from Sir Ed Davey where he calls for the US Ambassador to be summoned as I agree with Horses Black Eye that comments from the government and leading figures counts as Impact from musks comments on X. Knowledgework69 (talk) 22:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

That's an improvement, I was considering adding the "UK", "Germany" etc. subsections myself so glad someone's done it Kowal2701 (talk) 22:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Comments on comments are not an impact. They're just more comments. Foonix0 (talk) 16:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

If a comment results in another comment than that other comment is part of the impact. Thats not really arguable, its just how the english language works. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

It is indeed arguable. Who died? Who lost money? Who went hungry? Did anyone catch fire? Did someone's heart explode? Did literally anyone experience literally any situational change? If not, then no one has been impacted by either comment. Foonix0 (talk) 19:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

That isn't what the word impacted means. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Only if cherry picking definitions to win arguments via semantics.

There is no "significant or major effect." Foonix0 (talk) 23:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Eliciting a statement from a head of state is a "significant or major effect." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

If the Prime Minister calls a press conference specifically to discuss your comments, then we maybe possibly could say they’re impactful Kowal2701 (talk) 17:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

• Just noting that instead of removing it entirely moving it to Views of Elon Musk would be preffered (thats where we normally cover "gobbing off" which receives signficant coverage) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Second. QRep2020 (talk) 23:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  We also have the recently created Political activities of Elon Musk Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal to Update Elon Musk’s Introduction to Include “Far-Right Political Influencer”

Elon Musk, known for his ventures in technology and business, has engaged in activities aligning with far-right ideologies, despite his denials. Notable instances include:

• Endorsement of Germany’s AfD Party: Musk publicly supported the Alternative for Germany (AfD), a party classified by German intelligence as a suspected extremist organization. He stated that only the AfD can “save” Germany, aligning himself with their nationalist and anti-immigration stance.

• Platform Amplification of Far-Right Figures: Under Musk’s leadership, X (formerly Twitter) has reinstated accounts of individuals known for promoting bigotry, extremism, and misinformation, facilitating the spread of far-right ideologies.

• Dissemination of Far-Right Content: Musk has shared and engaged with content from far-right influencers, contributing to the normalization and dissemination of extremist viewpoints.

These actions demonstrate Musk’s alignment with far-right ideologies, contradicting his public denials.

Proposed Change:

Current Introduction: “…is a businessman known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc. …”

Proposed Introduction: “…is a businessman and far-right political influencer known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc. …”

Rationale:

Wikipedia strives to provide a comprehensive and neutral perspective on public figures. Musk’s endorsements of extremist political parties, amplification of far-right figures, and dissemination of far-right content are significant aspects of his public persona. Gnarledge (talk) 07:31, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Using the term “Far right” is simply an attempt to cast a slur against him. He was a democrat for most of his life and Musk has often been described as libertarian, but also describes himself as "politically moderate". JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Note your wording: Musk was a Democrat and describes himself as politically moderate. However, recent actions speak louder than self-descriptions or past tendencies. His recent endorsements of far-right political parties and amplification of extremist content on X demonstrate a clear shift toward far-right ideologies. Even this Wikipedia page and others acknowledge his movement toward the right wing.

Furthermore, your immediate characterization of this proposal as an 'attempt to cast a slur' lacks substantiation. I have made a concerted effort to provide evidence supporting my claims, including Musk’s specific actions and their alignment with far-right ideologies. This is not polemic but a factual observation backed by reputable sources. Gnarledge (talk) 08:09, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

What he describes himself doesn't really matter per WP:PRIMARY.

However, to the original point – to begin with we need sources that use this wording before we can even start the discussion. — Czello ^(music) 08:31, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

@JamieBrown2011

no, it is not only a slur because it is backed by political theory and documented evidence.

concrete wording can can be discussed.

maybe he is only a far right activist by German standards but not by American standards. Aberlin2 (talk) 15:28, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose putting this in the lede is ridiculous WP: due weight. calling elon musk an "influencer" is bizarre. you can put in the article body somewhere he has endorsed far right parties but thats already been done so whatever NotQualified (talk) 00:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose. JacktheBrown (talk) 13:17, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

@JacktheBrown what is your reason to oppose? Aberlin2 (talk) 15:43, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose and I'm sorry but this just looks like it was directly copied and pasted out of Chat GPT. Big Thumpus (talk) 04:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Big Thumpus

This is a criticism of the other person's writing style and could also be due to the fact that the person is not a native English speaker, but what about the substantive reasons for your rejection? Aberlin2 (talk) 15:47, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Per FMSky's comment below: WP:COMMONSENSE Big Thumpus (talk) 00:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@Big Thumpus WP:COMMONSENSE is not an answer in itself, you need to provide substance, see WP:NOCOMMON FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

The most you could do is "politician", this applies even to the losers of WW2. Kenneth Kho (talk) 06:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Far right or just self-centered? I think his politics are like Trump's, whatever they need to be to get what he wants. No he is not far-right. 16:01, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I love this radical leftist propaganda. 2601:18C:8183:D410:E04D:DD95:1048:461E (talk) 20:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:COMMONSENSE --FMSky (talk) 00:57, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

@Gnarledge I support this change with some restrictions.

of course this article is in General unbalanced but there should be sources to back this claim in the article. And then the sentence could be something like: ... "is described as far-right activist by multiple..."

hth Aberlin2 (talk) 15:40, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. He can say whatever he wants but his actions make it obvious 38.135.42.174 (talk) 20:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Support: not necessarily far-right but the lead section normally starts with the person most known characteristics and being a “troll” and conspiracy theorists plus his supporter for far right and fringe groups should be included. Sure there is a word that sums up that but I can’t remember one now FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

UTC)

Oppose JamieBrown2011 (talk) 06:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

There are many cases of him reposting and agreeing with racist, xenophobic, and transphobic content. Specifically from far-right accounts like End Wokeness, Libs of TikTok, and Laura Loomer, among others. He has also supported many far-right groups and individuals such as the AfD, Tommy Robinson, Nigel Farage, and Donald Trump. Jimmyisawkward (talk) 06:32, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose he's a normie 90's liberal. "Far-right" means racial purity and goose-stepping military worship and answering the JQ and all that nonsense, none of which I've ever heard Musk espouse.103.85.36.186 (talk)

References

Oppose as it's been a while and no sources have been provided. — Czello ^(music) 21:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/08/technology/elon-musk-far-right.html

https://www.msnbc.com/top-stories/latest/elon-musk-europe-politics-elections-rcna186663

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2025/1/6/musk-turns-on-uk-politician-farage-over-jailed-far-right-activist

https://english.elpais.com/international/2025-01-08/eu-faces-triple-threat-from-elon-musk-far-right-activist-owner-of-x-and-trumps-right-hand-man.html

https://apnews.com/article/germany-musk-scholz-election-afd-f621bbb93974c656c9a75b10da4413f0

https://www.economist.com/europe/2025/01/02/elon-musks-praise-for-the-far-right-infuriates-most-of-germany

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2025/01/04/elon-musk-uk-germany-canada-far-right/

https://www.newsweek.com/elon-musk-far-right-germany-england-europe-2008828

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/04/elon-musk-x-trump-far-right

https://apnews.com/article/elon-musk-europe-politics-germany-uk-f50d69d0d192a2d81c95f5d64c6d4acd 184.96.56.37 (talk) 17:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Which of these says he is far-right, rather than just using the words "far-right"? Slatersteven (talk) 17:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

"As Elon Musk Embraces Far Right"

"Elon Musk shifts his far-right influence campaign to Europe"

"EU faces triple threat from Elon Musk: Far-right activist, owner of X and Trump’s right-hand man"

"German leader is more worried about Musk’s backing of a far-right party than his insults"

"Elon Musk’s praise for the far right infuriates most of Germany"

"The X owner and tech billionaire has boosted far-right figures in Britain, Germany and Canada"

"Elon Musk Makes Major Push in Europe to Boost German, British Far-Right"

"He has endorsed the far-right AfD party in Germany and repeatedly hammered at the British Labour party."

"Musk is also friendly with the far-right Italian prime minister Giorgia Meloni."

"Musk’s ideological closeness with rightwing populist parties across the world may prove beneficial to his business interests as those movements continue to win political power."

"Starmer has joined the leaders of France and Germany in responding to a series of hostile posts by Musk backing far-right political parties and attacking leftwing politicians in Europe."

"Musk’s feed on his social network X is dotted with abusive language — labeling politicians “stupid cretin” and “sniveling cowards” — as well as retweets of far-right and anti-immigrant accounts."

"“We’ve seen Musk start to align himself much more obviously with an international movement of the far right,” Chadwick said. ”If you look at the kinds of people who Musk himself is boosting on his platform … he’s increasingly started to assemble a group of different right-wing influencers, many of them with large followings, and presenting their evidence as a basis for his interventions into European politics.”"

"Conservative politicians who have echoed some of Musk’s points of “amplifying what the far right are saying.”"

? 184.96.56.37 (talk) 17:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

SO 2, tops. Slatersteven (talk) 17:39, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Oldham see also

'The comments musk made in relation to "grooming gangs" was not limited to incidents in Oldham, but to incidents in Rotherham and Rochdale also' I added a see also like below to this article because Musk specifically was upset about Philips blocking an investigation into child molestation citing local autonmy despite the council saying they wanted it to be nationally conducted, is the see also valid or should the article be written to reflect this more beforehand (granted, things shouldn't be removed because articles have not yet got around to add info but rather the info being added to satisfy it if it's due weight)

See also: Oldham_Council § Controversy_over_handling_of_child_sexual_exploitation_in_Oldham

NotQualified (talk) 15:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree, that Oldham See also should be added under UK section. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 19:31, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

We're currently editing both articles to make it make sense, it's going to take a while NotQualified (talk) 19:34, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Oldham Council#Controversy over handling of child sexual exploitation in Oldham

Elon Musk#United Kingdom

Jess Phillips#Grooming gang inquiry

Greater_Manchester_Police#GMP_incidents_and_investigations

all four of these sections must be made accurate and in-line with one another. i think this scandal is big enough to warrant its own page but im currently just editing in these four places. NotQualified (talk) 18:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree that "UK Grooming Gangs Controversy" has enough Notability and WP:RS media coverage to justify a Wiki page by itself. I will be happy to contribute to this page. Menawhile, we can work on these four sections. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 22:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 January 2025

South African American buisnessman and Politicain 195.224.114.36 (talk) 14:07, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: See the #FAQ at the top of this page. — Czello ^(music) 14:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Musk was a Canadian citizen at birth

The article currently states that he was a Canadian citizen "from 1989" which I believe is incorrect. Canadian citizenship by descent, which Musk has, is conferred automatically by Canadian law *at birth*. 1989 is just when he applied for his first Canadian passport. But there are plenty of Canadians born in Canada who never apply for a passport at all, this doesn't mean they are not already Canadian citizens! — Preceding unsigned comment added by CuriousPine (talk • contribs) 06:50, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

As I understand it, at the time of his birth citizenship was patrolinical in decent. Slatersteven (talk) 11:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Canadian law was changed to allow matrilineal birthright by the Citizenship Act of 1976

When Musk was born, the Citizenship Act of 1946 applied. Under the 1946 law, citizenship would primarily derive from the fathers and could only be derived from the mother if t

Since Musk's parents were married, and his dad was not a Canadian citizen, Musk did not have birthright citizenship.

- History of Canadian nationality law QuiteBearish (talk) 20:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Change infobox citizenship: "Canadian (from 1989)" to "Canadian" (no year).

The info box says he has been a Canadian since 1989, but that's not how jus sangunis works in Canada. He is a Canadian since birth, since he inherited it from his mother. It doesn't matter what year you fill out the official paperwork. Minuendsubtrahend (talk) 01:39, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. A1Cafel (talk) 04:52, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oligarchy

According to the wikipedia page on Oligarchy, Musk now meets two of the three criteria. These criteria are well cited and widely acknowledged outside of wikipedia also.

Should we apply this principle and edit his description from businessman to American oligarch?

P.S.:- Please keep personal opinions at bay and this discussion as bias free as possible. The goal of this discussion is to establish well cited facts and document them. Wizdinor (talk) 12:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

See RFC above. Slatersteven (talk) 12:08, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Revert discussion

NotQualified, you reverted my edit saying I need to talk on the talk page because it was "written poorly". If you disagree with my edit and the sources I used, please explain your reasoning here. BootsED (talk) 18:48, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

i reverted it because you didnt go to the talk page, not because it was written poorly. it was written poorly because it didnt use proper grammar. NotQualified (talk) 18:55, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

NotQualified, I did use proper grammar? Please explain where in my edit I used improper grammar. Also, see WP:DRNC. BootsED (talk) 19:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

"... called British Prime Minister Keir Starmer an evil tyrant who should be in prison". you forgot to add speech marks, for example NotQualified (talk) 19:23, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

On a point of order, that's a direct quote from the article. It's not being displayed as text in the article, rather as a quote in the citation. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 19:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

There's an open discussion on this already and so far the consensus appears to be that it is inappropriate to refer to Musk as "far right". Big Thumpus (talk) 19:22, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

im aware, i believe this talk page discussion should end. NotQualified (talk) 19:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not calling Elon Musk far right. I am not saying Elon Musk is far right. There is no claim here that Elon Musk is far right. Prior conversations regarding calling Elon Musk a "far-right influencer" related to the lead. The actual quote and provided references, within the body of the article, for those who are curious:

Musk is a vocal supporter of international far-right political parties, activists, and causes. BootsED (talk) 21:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Do we not already have a section here discussing if we can call him far-right? Slatersteven (talk) 11:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

We do - and I agree the discussion has run it's course and we have a consensus. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 13:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Sources

Technocracy

Should Elon's grandfather's role in the Technocracy movement be mentioned? 70.26.26.4 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:45, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you have a source for this? Slatersteven (talk) 11:57, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 January 2025

1) For this statement, "At the age of 18 he immigrated to Canada, acquiring its citizenship through his Canadian-born mother, Maye." We don't actually know if or how he gained citizenship. Canadian citizenship is not automatic even though his mother is Canadian. There is a paperwork requirement. He or his guardian must present documents and apply in order for his identity and his connection to his mother to be verified through the Canadian government for citizenship to be officially granted. It is likely they did this, but the wording should not imply that it's automatic simply because Maye was his mother. I don't know the best way to improve it, but adding one word might help. For example, change "acquiring its citizenship" to "presumably requiring its citizenship"...

2. In the second paragraph beginning "A member of the wealthy..." the sequence of events in the Wiki entry is unclear (and could be misleading). Here is the backstory. Musk's work in CA (1995) and his student work at U.Penn on the opposite coast (purportedly from 1995 to 1997 or thereabouts) oddly appear to be coincident in time.

Musk was involved with GLIN/Zip2 since 1995 but U.Penn documents say that he graduated with two baccalaureates in 1997. U.Penn didn't have distance learning until years later. Musk could not have completed his degrees (from the opposite coast) via correspondence. The U.Penn diplomas shared online (which some have questioned) do say 1997 in Roman numerals but oddly one of them does not list the department (I looked at about 2 dozen U.Penn diplomas and all of them included the department, so it's odd that Musk's does not). He couldn't have started graduate studies at Stanford in 1995 because he hadn't yet finished his baccalaureate at U.Penn (and apparently didn't for two more years). Whether he falsified his application to say he had finished at U.Penn we don't know and I would prefer not to speculate. Musk is listed as a "celebrity" alumnus at U.Penn but doesn't show up in any of several alumni lists for 1997 or 1995. Musk has publicly stated he graduated in 1995 but documents do not support this. So... Musk hasn't shown any documents to confirm that he had finished at U.Penn when he started with GLIN/Zip2 but has claimed that he graduated in 1995. There's no evidence he had a Nonimmigrant Work Visa H-1B and you cannot work off-campus (or for more than 20 hours a week) unless you have a year's attendance at University in good standing, plus a Student Nonimmigrant Visa, plus are actively attending classes. So, Musk's claim that it was a "gray area" does not hold up to scrutiny and Kimbal's claim that they were illegals fits the facts (this is still backstory, I'm not saying this should be explicitly stated in the Wiki, just that the sequence of events needs a few small revisions). There appears to be evidence that Elon was accepted into Stanford but so far no evidence to show that he enrolled or attended classes. As such his Student Nonimmigrant Visa would no longer be valid and by law he would be required to go back to Canada and apply for H-1B via an employer as a sponsor, except he wasn't eligible for H-1B until after 1997 because he did not yet have a bachelor's degree. There's no such thing as transitioning from a Student Visa to an H-1B. They are separate Visa categories and separate application processes.

At the very least the unclear statement should be revised from this, "Musk later transferred to the University of Pennsylvania and received bachelor's degrees in economics and physics." to something like this: "Musk later transferred to the University of Pennsylvania and received bachelor's degrees in economics and physics dated 1997." It needs to be clear to readers that there is overlap in the stated time he was at U.Penn and the time he was on the other coast at GLIN/Zip2 (it's an important point since it stretches credulity that he was working full-time at GLIN while simultaneously completing two degrees on the opposite coast at U.Penn, plus it provides evidence that he may, in fact, have been illegal despite his claims to the contrary). AtozBarrett (talk) 13:49, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

PLease read wp:or we go by what wp:rs say. Slatersteven (talk) 13:51, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, it's late, been up all night, it should be "presumably acquiring its citizenship" (not "requiring"). AtozBarrett (talk) 14:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 January 2025

The Wiki article fails to prominently summarize/capture how Musk is a far-right conspiracy theorist. This is critically important information that can be easily verified and cited. Please include this in the summary statement at the beginning of the article.

Just a couple sources that I quickly found. There are MANY more. https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/19/media/elon-musk-don-lemon-interview-analysis-hnk-intl/index.html https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/how-elon-musk-uses-his-x-social-media-platform-to-amplify-right-wing-views

Here is one from www.congress.gov of all places! https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/115561/documents/HHRG-118-IF16-20230328-SD035.pdf

Please include this information! I am unable to edit the article given the locked-down nature of it, otherwise I'd make the contribution myself.

The current opening paragraph of the article: Elon Reeve Musk (/ˈiːlɒn mʌsk/; born June 28, 1971) is a businessman known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc. He is also known for his ownership of X Corp. (the company that operates the social media platform X, formerly Twitter), and his role in the founding of the Boring Company, xAI, Neuralink, and OpenAI. Musk is the wealthiest individual in the world; as of January 2025, Forbes estimates his net worth to be US$421 billion.[2]

I propose changing it to this following (changes shown in bold): Elon Reeve Musk (/ˈiːlɒn mʌsk/; born June 28, 1971) is a businessman known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc. He is also known for his ownership of X Corp. (the company that operates the social media platform X, formerly Twitter), and his role in the founding of the Boring Company, xAI, Neuralink, and OpenAI. Musk is the wealthiest individual in the world; as of January 2025, Forbes estimates his net worth to be US$421 billion.[2] Musk has gained international attention for using his social media platform, X, to regularly spread inflammatory misinformation as well right-ring conspiracy theories. Misterproject (talk) 00:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Brand new editor today and this is their first contribution to Wikipedia. Glad there is no hint of bias. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

No thanks Big Thumpus (talk) 02:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

See previous discussion http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Talk:Elon_Musk#Proposal_to_Update_Elon_Musk%E2%80%99s_Introduction_to_Include_%E2%80%9CFar-Right_Political_Influencer%E2%80%9D

— Preceding unsigned comment added by FMSky (talk • contribs) 0:34, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

“Shadow Vice President” claims from media

Should we add that some Democrats and media outlets have called him a “shadow vice president” or “shadow vice president” under the Politics section? 2600:100C:A21D:971A:6533:6A3:6518:BBF1 (talk) 23:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

No, we should not. WP:NOTNEWS Big Thumpus (talk) 01:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

NO, more Trivia. Slatersteven (talk) 10:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

NO. Biased media scandalmongering JamieBrown2011 (talk) 10:32, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

It may (or may not) be notable that President-elect Donald Trump responded to these references on Dec. 22, when he said this about Musk: "But no, he's not gonna be president. That I can tell you. And I’m safe. You know why? He can’t be. He wasn’t born in this country." Or maybe that note, if it's worth mentioning anywhere, should go in the separate "Political activities of Elon Musk" article?

Anywhere, here's one story about Trump's comments:

Fact Check: Trump Is Right — Elon Musk Can't Be President. Here's Why NME Frigate (talk) 17:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry: "Anyway" not "Anywhere." NME Frigate (talk) 21:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• It's something to consider eventually, but we should wait and see if there's WP:SUSTAINED coverage, especially once Trump is actually in office. --Aquillion (talk) 21:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Add the pronunciation of "X Æ A-Xii" (one of his child's name)

I cannot edit the article, as I rarely contribute to the English Wikipedia. Could someone with editing permissions please add this sentence to the 'Relationships and children' section (before 'They have received criticism for choosing a name perceived to be impractical and difficult to pronounce.'):

According to Grimes, the name is pronounced [ˈɛkseɪaɪ] (the letter 'X', followed by 'A' and 'I'), while Musk states it is pronounced [ˈɛksˈæʃeɪˈtwɛlv] (the letter 'X', 'Æ' pronounced as 'Ash', followed by 'A-12' as 'A twelve').

Here is my source: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/elon-musk-child-name-grimes-pronounce-x-b2469396.html

Thanks Renardeau.arctique (talk) 23:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 January 2025

On January 20th, 2025 Elon Musk displayed the Nazi salute twice during the United States presidential inauguration telling the world he is a Nazi. 72.69.140.186 (talk) 04:00, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Not done for now: Being discussed further up the page at § Controversial Salute. ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email · global) 04:14, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Musk's role in DOGE

I’m confused about what Musk will lead and what his title will be. Will he head the entire "United States DOGE Service" (formerly the United States Digital Service) or just the "Department of Government Efficiency" (the "U.S. DOGE Service Temporary Organization", a temporary organization within the United States DOGE Service)?

And what will his title be?

• The Executive Order establishing DOGE only mentions a "USDS Administrator."

• The hiring freeze Executive Order mentions an "Administrator of the United States DOGE Service."

• The merit Executive Order mentions an "Administrator of the Department of Government Efficiency."

Max1298 (talk) 13:20, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Number of children

The article in two instances gives the number of Elon Musk's children as either "12" (infobox) or as "at least 12". However, if one goes through the number of his relationships and the offspring stemming from each, I count three with Justine Wilson (one deceaed plus the twins), three with Grimes (though one by "surrogacy") and three Shivon Zilis.

Searching through the archive, I have found [3] that the article used to say ""Musk met his first wife, Canadian author Justine Wilson, while attending Queen's University. They married in 2000 and separated in 2008.[288] Their first child, son Nevada Alexander Musk,[289] died of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) at the age of 10 weeks.[290][291] They share custody of their five surviving children, all sons.[292][293][294]". So they had an additional three children, which indeed brings the number up to twelve. But these children should be mentioned in the article as well. This used to be sourced information that should be restored, with the sources given (in the archive these are only numbers).

However, there is no justification to go beyond the 12 and speculate about "at least 12", if there is even as little as the claim that additional children exist. Note that both instances are sourced with a single article (https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2024-elon-musk-population-collapse-baby-push/), which expressly only mentions the children with Grimes and Shivon Zilis. That's too little to speculate about additional children. Str1977 ^(talk) 15:38, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I just realised that I have not seen that the article speaks of twins and triplets. So the three additional children were included after all. Still, the arguments against speaking of "at least" stands. Hence I have removed these words. Str1977 ^(talk) 15:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Bias regarding Mr. Musk's views

The article states the following --> He has been criticized for making unscientific and misleading statements, including COVID-19 misinformation, affirming antisemitic and transphobic comments, and promoting conspiracy theories.

The statement is biased in that it avers his comments and actions actually are unscientific and misleading. In truth, Mr. Musk and millions of others do not agree with that perspective. It would not be biased to say the he has been criticized for alleged unscientific and misleading statements.

Here is Wikipedia's own policy on points of view.

Wikipedia's policy on a neutral point of view, articles must represent "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias,

47.13.37.229 (talk) 23:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles should reflect what reliable sources have to say on a subject. The fact that "millions" disagree is not relevant. It would be relevant, however, if you can show that some some sources have been given undue weight. best wishes Flat Out (talk) 23:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't get it. How is antisemitism "unscientific"? What scientific claims does it make? Dimadick (talk) 01:20, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Well we would need to see examples, but one might be they are genetically inferior. But I agree general hatred of Jews is not science. Slatersteven (talk) 10:41, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it's a good question, and agree with @Slatersteven's response. I wonder if the grammar of the sentence is a bit confusing? Is it supposed to mean.. "He has been criticized for: making unscientific and misleading statements, including COVID-19 misinformation; affirming antisemitic and transphobic comments; and promoting conspiracy theories."? I think whatever the meaning, a verb is needed before "COVID-19 misinformation", e.g. "spreading" DecFinney (talk) 13:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree that adding "alleged" or some variation would keep this more in line with WP:BLP Big Thumpus (talk) 01:35, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, and there's factually nothing scientific about this. The statement is already neutral EarthDude (talk) 11:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I see no bias in the statement. It says what he has been criticized for, and it is a fact that that criticism has been made. If anything, the statement is mild. In recent days, he has been criticized by numerous world leaders for his overt interference in other countries' political processes. Jeppiz (talk) 14:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

This language was the result of a previous Talk page discussion. If editors take issue with the language, please refer to the arguments therein first. QRep2020 (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The bias in this article is unreal. It actually works as a hit piece. The purpose is to paint Mr. Musk in a negative light using emotionally loaded, and sensationalized verbiage. However some will not see that, as it is a reflection of their own subjective thoughts towards Musk. 2601:18C:8183:D410:8107:B7E4:99B9:A5C5 (talk) 20:59, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

People can claim anything is biased. Saying something is biased doesn't actually mean much at all. Especially on Wikipedia where arguments are centered around policies and guidelines, and not if you feel like something is "biased". Photos of Japan (talk) 04:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

People can claim anything is unbiased. Saying something is unbiased doesn't actually mean much at all. Especially on Wikipedia where arguments are centered around policies and guidelines, and not if you feel like something is "unbiased." See how that works? 2601:18C:8183:D410:8107:B7E4:99B9:A5C5 (talk) 02:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

All writings reflect their authors' biases, and Wikipedia is no exception. Asserting otherwise is misguided. Policies and guidelines are often overlooked to promote consensus. 2601:340:8200:800:51A0:6BE4:9EFC:7B03 (talk) 05:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I can agree there are issues of neutrality in places, I have a Talk discussion open on one such paragraph. I would like evidence for what supporter's consider to be his most positive characteristics/philosophies, and I think examples of evidence might help this discussion be more constructive. If you have any, please share. I agree with the sentiment of other responses - it doesn't matter what we think is biased or what view we have of Musk or guess that millions of people think, any statement needs a robust evidence source - I have been struggling to find that from the positive point of view. DecFinney (talk) 13:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Our job is easy. We don't look for a positive or negative view. We don't make such evaluations. We publish what reliable sources say. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The lead specifically says views are polarised. That means people have positive and negative views of Musk. Since the paragraph only lists criticisms, it is not neutral. It is good editorial practice to represent the range of views. In the kindest judgement this means editors have not come across sources that provide positive viewpoints. I am very happy to assume that, but in this age of algorithm control of search results, the assumption that the sources you come across can be representative does not seem reliable. I would say robust editing involves one to look for a range of resources that represent the apparent range of opinion. DecFinney (talk) 14:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

We always look at a range of sources. But the sources must be reliable. If you look at unreliable sources, you can find many that say the Earth is flat. And 15-20% of millennials believe this. We are not going to add that possibility to satisfy those readers. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree the sources must be reliable. I requested robust evidence. I consider reliability to a component of robustness. DecFinney (talk) 14:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

You can request sources, but evidence is irrelevant because we don't do original research. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Elon_Musk_(Isaacson_book) covers Musk’s transformative first-principles engineering philosophy, hands-on leadership, and customer-focused innovation. It highlights his emphasis on speed, execution, and challenging the status quo, driving ambitious goals like Mars colonization and electric vehicles. Musk's frugality, resilience, relentless work ethic, autodidacticism and appetite for risk allow him to lead across industries. His provocative, direct communication style, creativity, and humor inspire and challenge his teams. 2601:340:8200:800:5821:DB76:CB45:FDA8 (talk) 13:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Most people (if not all of them) think that they alone are good judges of "neutrality". They are also frequently wrong. One single book by an author whose whole personal brand is "biographies of geniuses" does not constitute the a rebuttal to the mountains of less-biased sources that support how the article is currently written. plethoraOfUselessInformation (talk) 22:41, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

• If the highest-quality sources describe his statements as unscientific and misleading, then we have to reflect that statement. Inserting "alleged" or the like would be a violation of WP:WEASEL as well as violating WP:NPOV's requirement to treat unequivocal facts as facts. It's especially important here because many of his positions may be scientifically WP:FRINGE. The fact that some random people on the street might disagree doesn't change things - we decide truth based on the best available sources (which, especially for scientific matters, means ones by academic experts.) This is no different than our articles on, for instance, climate change or vaccines - plenty of people believe in fringe positions on those things, but our articles have to present the scientific consensus as fact. It is not editorial bias to do that - it is accurately summarizing the sources. In fact, it would be editorial bias to look at those sources and then say "well some people might not like this, so let's cram an 'alleged' in front of it that isn't in the sources." The editorial there is vital - it means that we cannot add bias ourselves. The flipside of that is that we're not permitted to censor or downplay a clear consensus among the sources simply because an editor believes it to be biased, since that would be another form of editorial bias on our parts. --Aquillion (talk) 21:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  See The Hill for example. We need a little more of the other side of the 'Polarisation' - or a little less of the negative side.

  "Sen. John Fetterman (D-Pa.) offered praise for tech billionaire Elon Musk and his career on Thursday, while acknowledging they may not always see eye-to-eye on political issues.

  “I admire Mr. Musk. He’s been involved in very important parts of American society: AI, SpaceX and other kinds of things,” Fetterman told reporters on Capitol Hill in an interview Thursday.

  “Yes, he is on a different team, but that doesn’t make me an enemy,” he continued. “I don’t … [am not] automatically going to become a critic.”

  The Pennsylvania Democrat added, “It’s like, ‘Hey, he has made our economy and our nation better.’ And our politics are different, and I don’t agree with some of the things that he might say, but that doesn’t make him, like I said, an enemy.”" Lukewarmbeer (talk) 19:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

We need to describe the Musk that exists today

It's absurd that we still describe him in the first sentence only as a "businessman known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc." That is not what he is best known for today. His political meddling (now also in Europe), his far-right politics, and his promotion of conspiracy theories are what he is best known for today. "A polarizing figure" doesn't adequately summarize how he is viewed today. He has openly promoted fascist and even neo-Nazi politics. We need to have something about far-right politics and conspiracy theories in the first section. --Tataral (talk) 17:20, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

I disagree, he has only been known for that for (what?) a year. Slatersteven (talk) 17:21, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Closer to two. In any event, he is described by many as the effective co-president or shadow president[4] of the United States. He tries to topple governments, supports far-right neo-Nazi parties and politicians in Germany and the United Kingdom, etc., etc. His past life as a businessman known for Tesla is trivial in comparison to the role he now plays in world politics. --Tataral (talk) 17:55, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

And he is a lot older than 4, thus this is really recent thing, and when (and if) he actually topples a government this might change. He is still only a businessman, one who happens to own a social media company used to amplify his voice. Slatersteven (talk) 17:59, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

That is not how he is perceived today, and it is not the standard that Wikipedia follows. --Tataral (talk) 18:17, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

He has not openly promoted fascist or neo-Nazi policies... Some people appear to be living in alternative realities. Ergzay (talk) 21:25, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

You're right, you are apparently living in an alternate reality where he didn't use his ownership of twitter to spread the conspiracy theory that jews are encouraging immigration to exterminate whites, and where he didn't support the far-right AfD party in germany, and where he didn't make a nazi salute twice at Trump's inauguration.

This is why editing the article to come across as "neutral" to his fans is a losing proposition. It is impossible to accurately describe reality while appeasing those who are ideologically opposed to acknowledging it. (See also: the talk page for "Evolution".) plethoraOfUselessInformation (talk) 22:58, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

I have had my say, it is now time for others. Slatersteven (talk) 18:19, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

Following the creation of the presidential commission Department of Government Efficiency which is likely to be in the next couple of days since the inauguration of Donald Trump today, I think it would be prudent to describe musk as "is a businessman and political figure known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc and since 2025 has served as the Commissioner for the Department of Government Efficiency, under the Second Trump Administration.

I feel that this change should only go into place following the creation of this department by executive order. Side note that the title for the head of this department is likely to be Commissioner/ Co-Commissioner or Chairman/ Co-Chairman but title could change. Knowledgework69 (talk) 19:56, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

That's pretty reasonable. Far better than the attacking far-left dribble bias promoted by the original poster of this discussion. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:22, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

as of 20 January 2025 the department of government efficiency has been established by executive order, under the authoirty of the 47th president of the united states. with elon musk being appointed as sole leader of said organisation due to the resignation of Vivek Ramaswamy in order for him to run for governor of the state of Ohio.

Pursuant to this executive order Elon Musk is now a member of the Federal government of the United States as such it should be mentioned in his preamble, in line with other government officials as of this date Elon Musk holds the position of The Administrator of The U.S. DOGE Service Temporary Organization. as such I shall be including my pre mentioned edit, with the correction of his title into Musk's preamble.

@Fyunck(click) @Slatersteven @Tataral Knowledgework69 (talk) 06:01, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 January 2025 (2)

Elon Musk uttered the words 'my heart goes out to you' after his 'supposed' Nazi salute. The article is clearly trying to mislead the reader. No serious news organisation is suggesting it was a Nazi salute. Only Wokepedia. Chrisyking (talk) 18:53, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

No news source? Are you sure about that? drdr150 Yell at me Spy on me 19:02, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

• Rejected As the instructions above clearly say: This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".. Cullen328 (talk) 19:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

  But he is right. It should absolutely have proper context and not be left hanging with conjectured bias. @Chrisyking: needs to write exactly what should be said and where it should be placed in the article. Only then can a request be granted. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

There are MANY news sources describing it as a NAZI salute. Please specify what changes you want to make. Sushidude21! (talk) 01:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Dutch ancestry

There is most likely no Pennsylvania Dutch ancestry. Elon Musk's paternal grandmother had Dutch ancestors (Dutch Free Burghers). Dutch relates to the Netherlands where the majority of white settlers in SA came from. Pennsylvania Dutch on the other hand relates to the German speaking religious group (Dutch here means Deutsch/German) who live mainly in Pennsylvannia and a few other places in the US and Canada. They came from Germany and Switzerland. 2A02:810B:1609:9800:A1DD:B1F9:C50E:1532 (talk) 13:30, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Both could be true, free Dutch through South Africa on the paternal side and Pennsylvania Dutch/Deutsch through America on the maternal side. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

1RR & ECP

In case anyone hasn't noticed, this article is now under WP:1RR and WP:ECP. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. QRep2020 (talk) 04:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Surely Wikipedia Policies and its editors can find a way to distinguish between propaganda and encyclopedic material before it loses all credibility with the general public

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The Elon "Nazi Salute" thing has highlighted the craziness of Wikipedia descending into what functionally becomes an extension of leftist leading media and propaganda. Look at these statistics Mentions of Political Extremism and a call to defund Wikipedia until it can find a way to be an encyclopedia again Defund Wikipedia Would love to hear how this could be achieved on this page when WP:RS are becoming widely known for their bias.

JamieBrown2011 (talk) 08:59, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Our policy, as you may know, is WP:NPOV: which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic, so it is in fact our goal to reflect the (proportionally weighted) "bias" of WP:RSs. If you want to change our policies that isn't going to be done on this page. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 09:21, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

No desire to change the policies. The policies are excellent! Its the implementation of them and the perception amongst the public that is the problem. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 09:57, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

JamieBrown2011, per perception amongst the public, for as long as Wikipedia has existed there have been groups aggrieved by such and such decision (some bigger some smaller) and threatening to not donate because of it (everybody from religious folk to webcommic artists to Alt medicine types). I don't even think that Musk's proclamations are the biggest instance of this. The way to deal with this is to broadly continue enforcing our WP:PAGs constantly and transparently, not capitulating and declaring all WP:RSs that cover Musk critically are less usable. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 11:49, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes but there is a distinct difference between "critical coverage" of a particular figure and outright fabricating narratives to malign them. Big Thumpus (talk) 15:18, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Let us know if you see anyone outright fabricating narratives. In this case, I see reliably sourced coverage going in-depth into the content. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:23, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If you honestly think the WP:RSs in this article can be proven to be fabricating stories (not just being biased), and not retracting/correcting them, take it WP:RSN where their reliability can be re-assessed. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 15:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

If someone examines this particular incident and comes away genuinely believing that Elon "did a Nazi salute", there is no productive conversation to be had about the reliability of sources. Big Thumpus (talk) 15:31, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

If you can't see how reasonable people can watch that video and come away with "that looks like a Nazi salute", then indeed you won't be able to engage in a productive conversation here. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

We basically prioritise factual accuracy over political neutrality Kowal2701 (talk) 10:14, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, roght wingers think left wing vs rhetoric should be covered in a 50:50 ratio, when there is no evidence that's how they are in reality. Some billionaires throwing tantrums and whining doesn't change the fact Wikipedia prioritises a neutral point of view supported by reliable sources over Strict political centrism. If there were more instances of right wing political violence it's no surprise wikipedia reflects that.

Many reputable sources have called Elon's Nazi salute for what it is. In this matter I would argue some people's insistence on covering all pov is holding back the article from being truthful and calling a spade a spade. Squeezdakat (talk) 10:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Time for an RFC, as we can't have 15 threads on this. Slatersteven (talk) 11:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Perhaps Musk — richest man in the world, tech mogul, and government bureaucrat — may have some ulterior motive for labelling any negative coverage of himself 'left-wing propaganda', no? Loytra (talk) 11:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ableism/Discrimination in Article

Did you all forget that Elon musk has autism? He has expressed this publicly. Sometimes atoms happen or actions/words come out in ways they (autistic people) don’t mean. Please do not mention this “nazi salute” in the article. Pointing this out is really just an insult to the autistic community, is ableist, and discriminatory. I guarantee that most people perceiving this as a “Nazi salute” aren’t even Jewish/are atheists looking to defame someone simply because they disagree with him and are upset that their candidate fairly, securely lost the election and wasn’t the one being inaugurated yesterday. “””Not to mention, using Nazism/Adolf Hitler as some silly political insult because YOU’RE mad that your political party/candidate lost and didn’t take control of the presidency and congress is disgusting and downplays the real horrific situation that occurred, a permanent stain and disgrace on world history, as well as the millions of lives lost.””” Shame on those in control of editing this article. Did you all forget that Elon musk has autism? He has expressed this publicly. Sometimes atoms happen or actions/words come out in ways they (autistic people) don’t mean. Please do not mention this “nazi salute” in the article. Pointing this out is really just an insult to the autistic community, is ableist, and discriminatory. I guarantee that most people perceiving this as a “Nazi salute” aren’t even Jewish/are atheists looking to defame someone simply because they disagree with him and are upset that their candidate fairly, securely lost the election and wasn’t the one being inaugurated yesterday. “””Not to mention, using Nazism/Adolf Hitler as some silly political insult because YOU’RE mad that your political party/candidate lost and didn’t take control of the presidency and congress is disgusting and downplays the real horrific situation that occurred, a permanent stain and disgrace on world history, as well as the millions of lives lost.””” Shame on those in control of editing this article. CavDan24 (talk) 03:26, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Fellow autist. I find it more ableist to act like autists are above criticism. Ilovededue (talk) 03:38, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

@CavDan24 We go on what reliable sources say, not the opinion of one person. If you find one that states that the gesture was a result of his autism, thats a different story. GiftedWithThought (talk) 04:07, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Would it be more ableist to mention his autism as context in the lead so it's made clearer to readers? His words and actions have consequences that—for better or for worse—are widely covered in the media, we can't exactly avoid everything he does that receives criticism. I do believe that undue weight is placed on his views in this article, when he is one of the most successful businessmen in the world and that is what his historical significance will bear, but they still can't just be ignored on the basis of any disabilities. The shame should be placed on the media in such a case. MB2437 11:58, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Autism doesn't make people do Nazi salutes. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:55, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Muboshgu, so what makes Musk critic Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez do "Nazi Salutes"[5]? GregKaye 18:20, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't click on random YouTube links or respond to whataboutisms. This is the talk page for Elon Musk. Stay on topic. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:23, 22 January 2025 (UTC)