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RfC: Flag?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

As an uninvolved editor, I see a clear consensus for option B. Closing per the CR request. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:22, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

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Which flag(s) should be used in the Syria infobox?

• A: No flag
• B: The Syrian revolutionary flag
• C: The flags of the main factions in control
• D: The Syrian Arab Republic flag

Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 03:01, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Survey

B pour favor LibertarianLibrarian85 (talk) 03:20, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

B Because "De Facto" Syrian has a new goverment Baqotun0023 (talk) 03:22, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

A - Option B is WP:TOOSOON due to a lack of reliable, English-language sources confirming any provisional government or "de facto" flag, Option C is too cluttered and Option D is a non-starter at this point. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 03:37, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

To better put it in PAG terms (since TOOSOON is an essay on article notability), option B does not meet WP:V yet since there is no indication in reliable sources that this is the official flag. Will it in the future? Probably. But we're not a WP:CRYSTAL ball and can't predict the future. I think the best option is to show no flag, and have a prominent link to Flag of Syria which explains the situation for readers who aren't versed enough in PAG (which is okay!) to understand why B is inappropriate right now. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 17:55, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

People here (and outside wiki) fail to realize that there isn't a Syrian state atm. No declaration has been made yet. They might say that the new Syrian transitional government is established but fail to see that there has been a revolutionary govt but without a state since 2017 (see Syrian Salvation Government#Government and politics) Abo Yemen✉ 18:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

A should stay for now till the new govt officially announces that the Syrian revolutionary flag (B) is the new flag Abo Yemen✉ 03:53, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

B alongside the Shahada/Tawhid flag for the reasons stated in #Constitution etc.: all factions are now using the revolutionary flag and it is safe to say that it is the de facto flag of syria. Abo Yemen✉ 14:45, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

A per WP:TOOSOON and WP:NOTNEWS. Also, if we have disputes between B and C, then choosing either of them seems WP:OR. No flag would be the better solution.  — 魔琴 (Zauber Violino) [ talk contribs ] 06:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

B state institutions websites are being adapted to the new revolutionary flag. Cscescu (talk) 14:08, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

B since we need at least something on there to stop confusing people (who are now accusing the article of being biased towards assad/rojava), this is the best solution until an official flag is declared. ⛿ WeaponizingArchitecture | yell at me 15:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

This is your second time participating in the RFC. Delete either this one or the one you forgot to sign Abo Yemen✉ 15:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

My bad, I forgot. ⛿ WeaponizingArchitecture | yell at me 17:11, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

It looks like the government has begun to use this flag alongside a white shahada. Changing my vote to B. ⛿ WeaponizingArchitecture | yell at me 14:09, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

It was B already? Abo Yemen✉ 14:18, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

B - Flag is being used by Syrian embassies around the world and since today in Syrian institutions in Damascus. (https://x.com/descifraguerra/status/1866495965114577221) Elserbio00 (talk) 16:01, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that would be considered WP:original research since we would just be inferring that because Syrian embassies are using it, it is official. We need multiple reliable sources to state that for us to move forward. Penguino35 (talk) 17:03, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

A as anything else requires outdated sources or WP:original research. Penguino35 (talk) 17:06, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

A for now. WP:NOTNEWS. We should wait for widespread diplomatic recognition or reliable sources before we go to B. Abzeronow (talk) 17:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

B per Abo Yemen. Abzeronow (talk) 17:49, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

B along with a caption of "de facto" under the flag. No confirmation of official status yet but there's enough use of it by new government institutions to be able to do so, I would say. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 17:53, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

We can't predict that everything is just going to happen and transition seamlessly, though. This is why we should wait until something official is confirmed. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 18:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Sure, but there is already enough use of the three-star flag in an official capacity (various embassies, the football team, the new PM having the flag behind him in official capacity, etc) that we can definitely say that it is the de facto flag even if not yet official. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 19:59, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• A until flag of new state is announced, obviously. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

B is widely being used in official capacities by the government. Jumper4677 (talk) 20:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

B There are many examples of national flags only existing in a de facto capacity, the most notable example being the Union Jack, which has no official status as the National Flag of the United Kingdom. Are some people here seriously insinuating that the Union Jack should be removed from the UK's Article because it is not "official"? 2204happy (talk) 20:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

B Enough state institutions have used or showed intent to use it, at this point waiting for a constitutional change would be no different than withholding information. ElementLover (talk) 21:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

B Waiting for an official source to formally declare it as the new Syrian flag is a valid concern. However, as pointed out above, it has been used pervasively around official circles, such as in a governmental website, waiting for an official announcement would withhold something obvious. I believe WP:IGNORE may be in order here to improve this article. Aintabli (talk) 23:20, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

B Flags are not always adopted through "official" legislation or announcements, especially after a regime change. Insisting on an unrealistically high standard of proof here would just obscure the facts on the ground. It is quite obvious what the current national flag of Syria is. AquaVacation (talk) 23:53, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

B used by the opposition, de facto rulers of Syria despite no constitution. Add as de facto flag. Beshogur (talk) 23:48, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

B it's the flag of those in power, and Assad's regime is unlikely to return. Bastique ^{☎ call me!} 00:23, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

B as it's the de facto flag of the country post-Assad. Michail (blah) 02:41, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

B with the caption “flag of the Syrian transitional government” to show that this is not a prediction of the official flag but rather a de facto flag used by the country and its new government The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:54, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

This sounds good as long as the flag of Syria page doesn't get updated till we get an official declaration Abo Yemen✉ 06:51, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh and we will have to put the Tawhid flag (basically the same one as the Taliban flag) next to it cus the new govt uses it as seen on pics from the new prime minister here and here and on Jolani's cnn interview Abo Yemen✉ 07:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not the same, it's 2:3 and the design is slightly different. We need to see an unfurled version. Beshogur (talk) 18:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

2:3 is an easy fix. The Tawhid flag has no standard design Abo Yemen✉ 18:42, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

B. More than enough sources now, even if there is no one definitive document defining the flag (as others have said, not all governments even have their flags defined by law, such as the Union Jack). The government is using it as "their flag", even if there's no official document confirming as such. It can be listed as "de facto flag" or some such in the infobox if needed.</MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont />

• A: Until it's clear what the flag of the new government will be. WP:TOOSOON and it would be misleading to have the flag that's not official. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:39, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
• A This is really the only option that's backed by policy. WP:TOOSOON and WP:NOTTHENEWS apply here and editors should exercise more patience when it comes to current breaking news. Nemov (talk) 14:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
• Note that this discussion was linked on the community Discord at roughly 06:00 UTC. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:27, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
• A: We should wait until the situation becomes clearer. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 16:49, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
• B. The Syria article in most other languages uses the Free Syria flag. Zabezt (talk) 17:05, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  Wikidata uses that flag since other Wikipedias tend to follow Wikidata. Abzeronow (talk) 17:51, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

• A: The current situation regarding government is still unclear, and until all of this is sorted out and we see it being used officially, then no flag should be displayed. Cutlass^Ciera 19:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
• B. We're featuring a coat of arms with the new flag, but not the flag itself? Am I the only one to find that situation ridiculous? Besides, the new flag is currently used everywhere in the media to represent Syria. It's the de facto flag of Syria. Khuft (talk) 23:56, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

  The Coat of Arms should be taken down for the same reasons I express above re: the flag. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 03:51, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

  Except that the new coat of arms is now prominently featured on government websites. If that's not an official sanction, I don't know what is. Khuft (talk) 19:51, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

• B. This discussion is completely ridiculous. The flag is everywhere, established (for 13 years!!) and universally accepted by the Opposition forces in Damascus. The whole of Wikipedia's coverage of the Syrian Civil War is wildly pro-Regime (look at how rarely Government abuses are mentioned and how many articles rely on purely openly pro-Assad sources such as al-Masdar), but this filibustering of legitimising the new flag is really something (not to be proud of). Nrg800 (talk) 10:41, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

  should we include the other de facto flag in use as seen in sources from the #Constitution etc. section of the talk? Abo Yemen✉ 10:45, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

  I disagree with using the other flag as well. While the PM may be using it together with the revolutionary flag, it's not being used in any other institutions, eg. embassies. If it becomes more widespread in its use, we can reconsider, but for now, the green-white-black flag is the only one in widespread use. Khuft (talk) 19:50, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

• B We now have a statement that the Kurds are adopting the flag as well.[1] I respect the caution here, but this is the flag of Syria, and whatever official endorsement that some folks are waiting for may never come, as it would seem redundant by those involved.GreatCaesarsGhost 14:17, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
• B - The "Independence Flag" is already being used by the country's legislature, government, ministries, embassies abroad and football association. In the most recent video appearance, the new prime minister appeared with the "independence flag" alone. The flag is already being used in the infobox for Syria in many other languages and by Wikidata. The white religious flag is most likely being used as an additional flag such as the Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander flags in Australia or the Wiphala in Bolivia. Dn9ahx (talk) 15:37, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
• B – It's time to make the change. There's now abundant sourcing of multiple official uses of the new flag. I understand being cautious at first, but we don't need to wait any longer. Wburrow (talk) 15:57, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
• B This flag is now being used by the Syrian parliament, the Syrian transitional government, and Syrian embassies internationally. Skitash (talk) 16:37, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
• B It's even flying off of the Syrian embassy in Russia! --Boris Baran - ✉ 19:38, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
• B Widespread use. Government offices, foreign embassies, official communications. It's time to make the change. ––yeagvr · ✉ 21:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

B - say “de facto” if you must. Yahnatan (talk) 23:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

B - If we're on board with the de facto emblem, the flag seems no different This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 12:41, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

RfC survey closure

Move to Close RfC The consensus is clear, 80% of the latest 25 votes are for using the new flag and only 8 out of the 36 votes in total say it should remain as No Flag. The RfC page says voting should "last until enough comment has been received that consensus is reached, or until it is apparent that it won't be. There is no required minimum or maximum duration". We have both enough comment and enough consensus, especially as mountains more evidence has come out supporting the use of the flag over the past days. The idea that there is a voting period that needs to elapse before any change can be made is wrong. The guidelines explicitly say "editors should not wait for that [period to expire]". Consensus is clear, the widespread and formal use of the flag is clear. This continued filibustering is frankly embarrassing. The current 'solution' is one that 20% of people think is appropriate, and is clearly outdated. Nrg800 (talk) 00:11, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Plus, why would they ever announce a new flag? It's CLEARLY obvious enough to deem it necessary. It'd be extremely redundant. Zabezt (talk) 01:14, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Same reason any country announces a flag, to indicate to other countries and institutions that that particular symbol should be used to represent their state. At some point for example, a country with a new flag will need to transmit that information to the United Nations for use on lists such as this one. CMD (talk) 05:57, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I put it up at Wikipedia:Closure requests, an uninvolved editor should close it soon enough. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 09:45, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Why does an uninvolved editor need to get involved? The result of this RfC seems clear enough already. Zabezt (talk) 17:50, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

That's just how it works. Someone who starts an RfC cannot withdraw it if there have been votes already cast, and someone who's participated cannot WP:SUPERVOTE by closing the discussion a particular way. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:20, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree. We have already come to a conclusion and it is counterproductive wasting everyone's time on one topic AsaQuathern (talk) 02:03, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I would recommend reviewing WP:RFC and learning about the process. Consensus is not determined by counting votes. Nemov (talk) 15:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

This should be closed as way too early and with zero sources.Moxy🍁 03:25, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:RFCBRIEF, the RfC statement should only be the question itself, and shouldn't include sources to make an argument. Given the many attempts at discussing the topic above, with varying levels of organization, having a centralized RfC on the topic isn't "way too early" in my opinion. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 03:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Simply a waste of everyone's time....as shortly we'll actually have a proper answer. Moxy🍁 03:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Right, this requires following our policies, not an RfC. The answer here is A, as there are no sources. However, once we have a source, it'll immediately flip to whatever that source says, likely B, possibly something else. If more sources develop to contest that, which is possible, then that's an entirely new discussion. CMD (talk) 04:20, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't fault Chaotic Enby for trying to consolidate everything above into one RfC. The root issue is impatience of trying to ram through the revolutionary flag which lead to so many threads in the first place. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 04:39, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

As much as I agree that it is the most reasonable, policy-based argument, the fact that people repeatedly ask to change it and that the infobox situation keeps getting reverted means that it is better to have this formally settled. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 07:00, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

The government link posted in the most recent new section [2] seems a potential indicator, although clearly not everything is updated. CMD (talk) 12:05, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Can anyone vectorize that coat of arms? we should be using it once the state is officially established Abo Yemen✉ 12:50, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Vectorizing is easy, even easier is editing File:Coat of arms of Syria (1980–2024).svg which is what they presumably did. Adding a star and changing a color probably doesn't affect copyright status, so it should be okay? CMD (talk) 13:00, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

On the wider question of should we use it, that file still has Syrian Arab Republic written on it, so while it could be the planned CoA moving forward it could also be the very quick work of one webdev who wanted to change one flag. CMD (talk) 13:04, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Interesting, apparently it's a very recent change. Wayback has the two-star CoA on 4 December, then just earlier today there was no file at that location, before the three-star one was uploaded some time between then and now. CMD (talk) 13:08, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

If that is the case then its probably a rushed edit just to remove the bashar flag from the coat of arms Abo Yemen✉ 13:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I went ahead and vectorized the file at Commons:File:Coat of arms of Syria (2024-2024).svg. ⛿ WeaponizingArchitecture | yell at me 20:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I've written a short blurb in the flag section so that people stop adding talk page requests for "why is there no fsa flag" - Should be replaced with the outcome of the RfC when that concludes. ⛿ WeaponizingArchitecture | yell at me 19:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Adoption by AANES

Per this source, the AANES/Rojava have officially adopted the independence flag. They explicitly note they are not the central government, but nonetheless this is an official statement of a national flag, as they also have a regional flag. CMD (talk) 13:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to the infobox

Syria سُورِيَا (Arabic) Sūriyā
De facto co-flags used by the Syrian transitional government De facto coat of arms used by the Syrian transitional government
ISO 3166 code	SY

This is my proposal. Thoughts? Beshogur (talk) 14:49, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Place the revolution flag above as it is the main flag Abo Yemen✉ 15:00, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I did with based on this and this but here is it the opposite. Anyways, doesn't matter. Maybe first flag to the PM means the first. Thoughts about the format? Also other users. Beshogur (talk) 15:02, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

We don't need to prevaricate about de facto, either we are sure it is the flag, or it isn't. CMD (talk) 15:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I prefer the model that I suggested in a discussion below, with the white religious flag being displayed separately.It is evident that the "independence flag" is significantly more widely used by state institutions than the white religious flag, which seems to me mainly being used by the cabinet, and even when used by the cabinet, it is always used in conjunction with the "independence flag". Dn9ahx (talk) 15:50, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, keep the infobox with both flags but put the independence flag first. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 19:10, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I really don't think there are sufficient grounds to claim the white flag is a co official state flag. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 00:10, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Syria سُورِيَا (Arabic) Sūriyā
De facto flag De facto coat of arms
Additional flag used by the Syrian transitional government
ISO 3166 code	SY

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2024

al-Omar Field → al-Omar field fix link. 2003:100:3700:8C00:C12A:B39F:BA6F:4165 (talk) 16:15, 16 December 2024 (UTC) 2003:100:3700:8C00:C12A:B39F:BA6F:4165 (talk) 16:15, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

 Done PianoDan (talk) 21:08, 16 December 2024 (UTC)