Talk:Diane Leather

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A fact from Diane Leather appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 19 December 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Diane Leather was the first woman to run a mile in under five minutes?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/December. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Diane Leather.

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Crisco 1492 talk 02:55, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

... that Diane Leather was the first woman to run a mile in under five minutes?

Source: https://www.athleticsweekly.com/news/mile-legend-diane-leather-dies-1038762/

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Typhoon Thelma (1977)

5x expanded by Oldelpaso (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

Oldelpaso (talk) 22:24, 14 October 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Can we do better than this? If any woman has run the mile in under 5 minutes, someone had to be the first, and the hook doesn't provide any more information. (t · c) buidhe 23:51, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying a world record isn't notable and/or hook worthy? Or are you asking for more context such as a link to Mile run world record progression? I was trying to keep the hook as succinct as possible. Oldelpaso (talk) 02:01, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another issue is that the hook proposed is a "first" hook, which per WP:DYKHOOK usually needs exceptionally strong sourcing given the exceptional claim involved (how are we sure that no other woman before Leather ran a mile in under five minutes?) Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:21, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article includes cites describing her in those terms from the World Athletics website (the organisation that ratifies world records in the discipline, formerly known as the IAAF)[1], the BBC [2], Guardian [3], NYT [4], Washington Post [5] and others. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:37, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I could work in some reference to Roger Bannister in the hook, as his far more well-known first sub-four minute mile occurred the same month and thus they are frequently compared, but I'd rather not. It was how overlooked Leather's achievement was compared to the male equivalent that prompted me to expand the article in the first place! Oldelpaso (talk) 21:55, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

... ALT1 ... that Diane Leather's records for the mile in 1953 and 1954 were labelled "world best" rather than "world record" because the distance was not officially recognised for women until 1967? @Oldelpaso, Narutolovehinata5, and Buidhe: See source here. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 00:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A bit of a late comment, but ALT1 is probably a lot better because it's not a "first" hook and is thus more likely to be accurate. Plus it's also arguably more intriguing than a simple "first" hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:16, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing the hook fact in the quoted source. I didn't see the phrase "World best" at all on the cited page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:31, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Oldelpaso: Please address the above. For the record, I'd truncate ALT1 at "world record".--Laun chba ller 00:58, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are multiple sentences or paragraphs where the sourcing is unclear. Please see the {{citation needed}} tags added. Also, it appears that this article has not yet had a full review. Does any other user commenting here intend to? Flibirigit (talk) 22:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that the nominator has not edited since October 22. This nomination might need adoption if it will succeed. Flibirigit (talk) 12:34, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, with six days elapsed since my "Please address the above" comment, I would have threatened to say "I will close this in 24 hours if there is no progress on this".--Laun chba ller 12:42, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I posted a message at WT:DYK. Let's see if anyone adopts this. I don't have the time to commit to it myself. Flibirigit (talk) 01:38, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found one missing reference, but having trouble with the others. But lets please put to bed this silly idea that we need better sourcing for being the first woman to run a 5 minute mile. It only took a few minutes of searching to find dozens of high quality sources for this fact. There is no reasonable doubt that it's true. And that's from somebody who complains about "first" hooks more than almost anybody. RoySmith (talk) 14:36, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd also discourage User:Launchballer from shutting this down. WP:DYKTIMEOUT gives us the option to do that, but doesn't require it. This seems like an important topic and worth investing more effort. We do need to resolve the remaning citation needed tags and it looks like our best route to doing that is to find somebody with a subscription to Athletics Weekly. I've asked for assistance at WT:WikiProject Athletics. RoySmith (talk) 14:52, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fine by me, however I'm slightly uneasy about ALT0 per WP:FIRSTWOMAN and I'd truncate ALT1 at "world record".--Laun chba ller 15:11, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Just to make this more official, here's a formal review:

Article is long enough.
Article was 5x expanded between 2024-10-08 (3066 prose) and 2024-10-15 (15411 prose)
This has appeared on OTD twice, most recently on May 29, 2023. I'n not a fan of rerunning material, but this does technically meet the requirement of WP:DYKNEW.
Earwig reports no copyright or close paraphrasing issues.
There are 5 "citation needed" tags which need to be resolved before this can be promoted.
ALT0 is verified and interesting and thus approved, pending the resolution of the missing citations.
I reject the WP:FIRSTWOMAN argument. That's valid for many things, but athletic records are always kept separately for men and women.
Oh yeah, QPQ exempt
RoySmith (talk) 15:37, 6 December 2024

I did a QPQ anyway when originally nominating - I have several DYKs but all more than 10 years ago, so they must pre-date this system. Oldelpaso (talk) 11:29, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to the message I left on Oldelpaso's talk page, I sent them an email. Between that and the wikiproject request, I think we've done our due dilgence. So as not to be a total roadblock, how about we give it a week to see if any of those bear fruit, and if nothing happens by then, we can call it a day? RoySmith (talk) 22:03, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds fair, but just to make things clear, the nomination will time out anyway on the 14th, which is a day after one week from December 6. Regardless of what happens, marking the nom for closure on the 13th or 14th if issues remain unaddressed and no one adopts this/the nominator doesn't return seems fair. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:23, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the email. I'm only an occasional visitor, and had assumed this had been and gone. I'll look for cites. All things I remember reading, I just have to figure out where. The London Olympiades one in particular is one that can be found easily in less robust sources, but is implied without the neat explicit phrasing in the better ones I've tried so far. Is it me or has Google gone way downhill in the decade since I was a regular editor? Oldelpaso (talk) 16:25, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for coming back to work on this. I'm not usually a sports fan, but this one caught my eye as something interesting/significant that we should put some extra effort into promoting. RoySmith (talk) 16:39, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The nomination will time out on the 14th, so it seems reasonable that any remaining issues need to be addressed before this. @RoySmith: If Oldelpaso cannot address the concerns on time, will you be willing to address the concerns yourself and adopt the nomination? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:39, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oldelpaso has already fixed some of them. There's two left. Let's just let him do his thing. RoySmith (talk) 14:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean "the nomination will time out on the 14th" Narutolovehinata5? WP:DYKTIMEOUT clearly says "at the discretion of reviewers and promoters". Why would you time out a nomination which does not require much improvement and which the nominator has committed to work on. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:29, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was simply saying that the nom would be two months old on the 14th, I wasn't planning on marking it for closure especially now that it's being worked on. It was more of a reminder than a warning. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:54, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The tagged statements have cites now. If a cite is needed for the alt hook, the WaPo obituary provided as one of the examples of cites for the original hook covers it. Oldelpaso (talk) 11:29, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ALT0 approved, thank you. RoySmith (talk) 13:28, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]