Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Venezuela/Archive 6

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This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Venezuela. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

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AN/I

A topic ban on Venezuelan politics against me has been proposed in the WP:AN/I.

Given my activity and participation in the WikiProject, I'm leaving this notification to any member that is interested in reading or participating. --Jamez42 (talk) 02:55, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

@Jamez42: It's really difficult for me to see how this could be interpreted as anything other than WP:CANVASSING. I think you should delete it. — cmonghost 👻 (talk) 04:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

@Cmonghost: There are 29 members in the WikiProject. It would be canvassing it I posted a message individually in each one of the users talk pages (see WP:APPNOTE). Besides, I disclosed my intention to leave this notification in the AN/I for more transparency. Deleting this wouldn't achieve anything in any case, since the message remains in the edit history. --Jamez42 (talk) 04:09, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

@Jamez42: Per WP:CANVASSING, scale is not the only factor (and 29 individuals is actually a rather small number). The audience you post to also matters, and this is a partisan audience, given that it is a relatively small WikiProject in which you are an active participant. In the notice, you also explicitly state "Given my activity and participation in the WikiProject", heavily implying that you want people to go there and defend you in order to allow you to continue to participate in the project.

Deleting or striking the notice would not remove it from the history, but it would indicate that you regret posting it. — cmonghost 👻 (talk) 04:26, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't have anything to do, I cited the number to illustrate that not every member of the WikiProject would share my position, ~~including yourself~~. --Jamez42 (talk) 04:29, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm not a member of the WikiProject. If you don't see a problem with the posting, then leave it up; I won't reply further here. But I certainly don't think it's appropriate. If you're going to post a notice everywhere that's relevant (which I think is weird, to be clear, given that this is about your individual edit behaviour), you should also post to the talk pages of United States involvement in regime change and United States involvement in regime change in Latin America, the articles that are most related to the discussion. — cmonghost 👻 (talk) 04:39, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

I suscribe to what Kingsif said, I could swear that you were already were a member. Striken down. I'll leave a notification in the respective articles. --Jamez42 (talk) 05:30, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

@Cmonghost: Yeah, I don't think this is canvassing. Jamez is an active member of WP Venezuela, a topic ban against something Venezuela-related has been proposed, how is that not relevant to discussion here? Kingsif (talk) 04:24, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

@Kingsif: I clarified in my response to Jamez above. — cmonghost 👻 (talk) 04:26, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

@Cmonghost: Fair enough - I hope you don't see my comments at the ANI as being influenced by this message, though - I gave my honest view on the situation after being made aware of it. I'm also surprised you're not a member of the WikiProject, but I assume you must have reasons; if it's because you think there would be anything hostile towards opposing views, I promise there isn't. Kingsif (talk) 04:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

2020 Protests

Guaidó apparently called for more protests, with a minor one held yesterday (?). Maybe it is too soon to say, but in the case a large prostests wave breaksout, should we make a 2020 Venezuelan protests article or should we expand the 2019 article? I would prefer the former, just to continue with the tradition of having a protests article per year. What do you think?--MaoGo (talk) 11:40, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

As far as I know there also was a student march on 7 January, and there will probably be more. However, I have to say that I quite dislike the idea of protests articles about each year, since each wave of protests has way more intensity than other years and can be distinguished with reports of the Observatory of Social Conflictivity and Foro Penal, as well as per notability and WP:NOTNEWS, and I think it would be much preferrable to create a timeline article. --Jamez42 (talk) 12:33, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

We can start a 2020 protests article timeline as soon as a major protests wave breaksout.--MaoGo (talk) 13:42, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Map request

The International Contact Group on Venezuela needs a map (showing its members). Anybody here is interested?--MaoGo (talk) 12:35, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Social protests

This is something that I've been wondering about for some months now, but at the very least would like to leave a comment about it here. There are protests daily in Venezuela that don't get international coverage or political attention just because they are socially motivated, but are equally important in the broad picture of the crisis. Public workers and teachers demanding better wages, health workers on strike until conditions improve, cancer and terminal patients protesting for medicines, neighbors demonstrating because of water or electricity cuts. 2018 had more protests than 2017 according to the Venezuelan Observatory of Social Conflictivity, even though it wasn't one of the "political" protetests wave. This is something really extensive and if it is decided to make a mention about it, I would suggest to quote a briefing by a NGO, such as the Observatory as I mentioned before. --Jamez42 (talk) 23:14, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

We sadly can work only with what reaches mainstream, sadly hundreds of protests of last year and before where completely abandoned by foreign media (mostly because foreign news agencies only cover Caracas and Maracaibo). An article on these kind of protests could be created but I wonder if we be able to find the right sources. With respect to the Venezuelan observatory of conflicts numbers, some of it could go into the Crisis of Venezuela article.--MaoGo (talk) 12:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Ah, no worries, there are plenty of local sources that report on these and I believe they can be added to articles and still have due weight. For the time being I wanted to share these thoughts. --Jamez42 (talk) 15:19, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

WP VEN RfC on reliability of various NGOs

The WP:VENRS lists a lot of NGOs but gives no indication as to whether the WikiProject deems them reliable or not, or to some extent. To be informative, I'd like to request views on these, and we could start with the first three: Acceso a la Justicia, Centro de Justicia y Paz, and Ecoanalítica.

Pinging all active project members, and will leave a note on the VENRS talk page. @Alex Coiro, AchedDamiman, AVM, Decltype, Monni95, Wilfredor, Hahc21, AntonioMartin, and Leanex77: @Oscar, ZiaLater, Dainshku, Yv1hx, Gabrielsanz, OliverDF, Jamez42, BiggestSataniaFanboy89, and Vami IV: @Naturista2018, Coffee312, Enmanuel, MetricSupporter89, MaoGo, Cyfraw, Viva Nicolás, Bradford, Vercelas, and Mrofeserf: Kingsif (talk) 01:30, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

I removed the reliability column because at first I consider there is virtually no difference between the reliability of the NGOs, which I deem to be reliable. To give a little bit more of insight: Acceso a la Justicia analyses the rule of law in Venezuela, including the documentation of persecution against deputies, irregularities in the Supreme Tribunal of Justice and breach of electoral law; Centro de Justicia y Paz usually analyses the human rights situation and was one of the NGOs that monitored the 2018 presidential election, and Ecoanalítica releases weekly reports about Venezuela's economy, monitors inflation independently and analyses other economic factors overall. If it is more helpful, reliability can be included in the "Scope/Extra information" without a binary factor, explaining the NGOs history. --Jamez42 (talk) 09:50, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Would it hurt if we split the relevant sources from the NGOS? Aside from a few of those, I cannot tell how important or reliable those groups are. I may tell which are mostly cited in the news (national and foreign) but I would not know how measure the reliability for most. If Jamez42, can provide sources when contested, I guess we may keep the moment, but I honestly wonder if it would hurt the reliability and utility of WP:VENRS in the future.--MaoGo (talk) 10:04, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

You mean disposing of them or creating another page? Either way I think it would be alright, the important thing is to have a guide on how to reference articles and to assess reliability. --Jamez42 (talk) 17:01, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Ecoanalítica is a private firm which is ultimately due to its clients. Since there are a lot of others institutions without a conflict of interest of this type (economic research) it migh be better to remove it from that list. Oscar_. (talk) 23:30, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Removing for the time being. I will restore it if the reliability column comes again. --Jamez42 (talk) 23:58, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Addy Valero

Deputy Addy Valero died today of cancer. She was reportedly one of the deputies that was attempted to be bribed. I want to translate the article from Spanish for Women in Red (Addy Valero), but I don't think I will do it today. I wanted to leave the comment here in case anyone was interested in translating it before. --Jamez42 (talk) 23:58, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

History section in Economy of Venezuela

I just raised my concerns on how long the history section has become in Economy of Venezuela, can somebody check it out? The discussion is here:Talk:Economy of Venezuela#History section is long--MaoGo (talk) 15:00, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Chagas disease FAR

I have nominated Chagas disease for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:44, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Responses of the Venezuelan crisis: Uruguay

Can somebody update (or verify) Uruguay's color in the Responses to the Venezuelan presidential crisis map? It is definitely no longer red. --MaoGo (talk) 12:25, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

@MaoGo:

Done, I have changed the color from red to light blue. I believe we can be confident in this position based on pre-inauguration declarations and the talk page discussion. This can be changed later to blue or other color if it is not the most accurate description. --Jamez42 (talk) 01:17, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Coronavirus in Venezuela

Coronavirus is already in Venezuela (Reuters), I hope we can write an article on it as it was done for other countries.--MaoGo (talk) 16:07, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

I started the article, I'm hoping to continue updating it in the following hours. --Jamez42 (talk) 16:17, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Petro as crypto

Before proceeding with a move request, I would like some of your opinions on Talk:Petro (cryptocurrency)#Is the Petro a cryptocurrency?. I asked also in the Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Cryptocurrency. I think the article is misnamed and leads to confusion.--ReyHahn (talk) 12:09, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

The 50,000 Destubbing Challenge

Hola a todos,

The summer focus of Wikipedia:The 50,000 Destubbing Challenge is about to start, and from 11 May there will be a focus on the Caribbean, including Venezuelan islands of the Federal Dependencies of Venezuela and Nueva Esparta. Working on stubs here would help meet a Wikipedia target!

Kingsif (talk) 15:33, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

COVID-19 in Venezuela

COVID-19 pandemic in Venezuela needs help. While graphs and tables can be updated easily, we are lacking much information. Mainly about government response like economic measures on industries and companies. We also need some sections on lack of transparency, treatments and medicines used and disinformation.--ReyHahn (talk) 06:42, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Here's a section including information that should be included. --Jamez42 (talk) 12:54, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Efecto Cocuyo down?

I tried to read an EC article, but the browser said it couldn't find the database, and when looking at website scanners, apparently EC is down. Does anybody know why? @Jamez42, ReyHahn, and ZiaLater: Kingsif (talk) 21:28, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kingsif: Might be experiencing issues due to the power outages.----ZiaLater (talk) 21:32, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kingsif: Efecto Cocuyo access problems are happening more frequently in the last couple days, but it usually doesn't last long.--ReyHahn (talk) 22:38, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Lockdown deadline

The last article we have about it, said that the lockdown in Venezuela should have lasted until 11 May, but I see nothing in today's news. Is the lockdown over and if not do we have any updates that I might have missed?--ReyHahn (talk) 23:31, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Well apparently it'll last up to 13 May, but even that isn't clear [1]--ReyHahn (talk) 00:19, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Venezuela is not a "mixed market" economy, as asserted in the Economy of Venezuela page

The article on Economy of Venezuela begins: "The economy of Venezuela is a market-based mixed economy based largely on the petroleum and manufacturing sectors."

Although the assertion cites a State Department backgrounder which is rather vague about the country's economics, even it refers to more evidence that it is a socialist economy than a "mixed market" one. I will address this first. The first evidence for this is given in the section U.S.-VENEZUELA RELATIONS, which includes the following:

″Venezuela’s recent presidents, the late Hugo Chavez (1999-2013) and Nicolas Maduro (2013-present), have defined themselves in part through their opposition to the United States, regularly criticizing the U.S. government, its policies, and its relations with Latin America. President Maduro has also continued his predecessor’s policies, notably what the Venezuelan government refers to as "21st Century Socialism," which is characterized by an outsized role for the executive, extensive state intervention in the economy, and efforts to expand Venezuelan economic and political influence among nations in Latin America and the Caribbean.″

These are traditional Soviet-style policies based upon Marxist-Leninist theory interpreted through the Cold War division between "capitalist" and "communist" countries (opposition to the US, powerful executive, extensive intervention in the economy, expansion of its system to other countries); and, as indicated, the government calls its own system (21st Century) Socialism. The State Department article goes on later to spell out some of the socialist interventions into the economy, which again are consistent with a socialist, not a "mixed market" economy. The "state intervention in the economy" includes:

″expropriations, macroeconomic distortions, physical insecurity, corruption, and a volatile regulatory framework make Venezuela a challenging climate for U.S. and multinational companies. A complex foreign exchange regime and restricted access to dollars have prevented firms from repatriating their earnings out of Venezuela and importing industrial inputs and finished goods into Venezuela. Extremely limited access to dollars, price controls, and rigid labor regulations have compelled many U.S. and multinational firms to reduce or shut down their Venezuelan operations.″

These may not amount to completely planned economy, but they do add up to something much closer to Soviet-style socialism than to a mixed market economy. Although "corruption, and a volatile regulatory framework" may be interpreted in different ways, depending upon the system's constitution, who holds the power over the regulations (Party, State, or private interests such as lobbyists or businesses), who interprets their actions as corrupt (and why) rather than exercise of power over those regulations (again, the constitution and laws in question are relevant to this issue).

But this State Department article does not focus on the economic system of governance, but rather the bilateral relationship between Venezuela and the United States - it is not a good source for answring this question.

Although there is a strong case to be made that, one way or another, Venezuela might fall to the Resource Curse, the change in the economic system certainly contributed to the Crisis in Venezuela and came from one wing of the left "represented by Chavez and his party PSUV, self-defined as Marxist-Leninist, openly associated with Fidel Castro."^[1]

All around the world, this move to socialism was celebrated by left-leaning and Marxist thought leaders. Many of these same thought leaders deflect from the idea that it is a socialist country today, but at its inception, they celebrated the new experiment with this economic system. For example, ″On Venezuela, what you’re likelier to read is that the crisis is the product of corruption, cronyism, populism, authoritarianism, resource-dependency, U.S. sanctions and trickery, even the residues of capitalism itself. ... Curiously, that’s not how the Venezuelan regime’s admirers used to speak of “21st century socialism,” as it was dubbed by Hugo Chávez. The late Venezuelan president, said Britain’s Jeremy Corbyn, “showed us there is a different and a better way of doing things. It’s called socialism, it’s called social justice, and it’s something that Venezuela has made a big step toward.” Noam Chomsky was similarly enthusiastic when he praised Chávez in 2009. “What’s so exciting about at last visiting Venezuela,” the linguist said, is that “I can see how a better world is being created and can speak to the person who’s inspired it.”″^[2]

It can be argued that the Crisis was caused by socialist policies: everything from shortages to the rampant corruption emerged as a result of the policies of the new system introduced by Chávez.

″Many in the media have blamed Venezuela’s worsening humanitarian crisis on corruption, mismanagement, falling oil prices, or U.S sanctions—anything but the rise of socialism in what was once the wealthiest country in South America. Yet corruption and mismanagement were the direct result of increased government control of the economy—socialism—and in reality, lower oil prices and U.S. sanctions have little to do with the crisis. Instead, the mass starvation and exodus faced by Venezuelans are the natural consequence of the socialist policies implemented by dictators Hugo Chavez and Nicolas Maduro.″^[3]

There are indeed similarities and past precedents to look to for support for this position. As throughout the Cold War, this has been a disputed topic, with others blaming currency mismanagement, the price of oil, sanctions, and other factors - although even in that story, price controls and subsidies (which were extreme and apparently rooted in Marxist-Leninist ideology) play a key role:

″Many businesses and individuals were also willing to pay a premium to circumvent controls, either to avoid bureaucratic trade barriers or to safeguard the value of their capital, and a currency black market sprang up to cater for this demand. Where black-market dollars became part of the cost structure of basic goods, the profit margin between the cost of production and state-controlled prices narrowed or disappeared entirely, causing further damage to local production. Beyond undermining local businesses, these policies also created opportunities and incentives for corruption, which grew in attractiveness in step with economic distortions, creating a vicious cycle.″^[4]

Although the cause of the crisis may be in some dispute, the idea that Venezuela has a "mixed market" economy should not be disputed but recognized as outright false. It should be labeled as socialism of some sort, particularly as the government itself celebrates it as "21st Century Socialism" and the significant policy sea-change was based around the ideology of Marxism-Leninism. Economi3 (talk) 14:25, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

References

^ "Debunking a Myth: Hugo Chavez & Venezuelan Socialism". LSE. 18 May 2018. Retrieved 19 May 2020.
^ "Yes, Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe". The New York Times. 25 January 2019. Retrieved 19 May 2020.
^ "How Socialism Destroyed Venezuela". Manhattan Institute for Policy Research. 21 March 2019. Retrieved 19 May 2020.
^ "Is socialism to blame for Venezuela's never-ending crisis?". Al Jazeera. 31 May 2018. Retrieved 19 May 2020.

@Economi3: WP:SOFIXIT Kingsif (talk) 17:40, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Caracas article

I just did a lot of clean-up on Caracas, and I previously expanded the history. However, there's still some missing citations I'm struggling with. There might also be some gaps in coverage. As the capital, it should be one of the best articles and so if anyone knows anything that should be added, please work on it! Kingsif (talk) 21:59, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kingsif: I'll try to give it a look later, many thanks :) --Jamez42 (talk) 01:10, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Donors Conference

Is this conference notable enough to create an article about it or include related content to existing ones? [2][3][4][5] --Jamez42 (talk) 01:14, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Discussions in United States involvement in regime change in Latin America

Talks have restarted on Talk:United States involvement in regime change in Latin America on the inclusion of Venezuela. Comments are welcome.--ReyHahn (talk) 21:15, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

SCMP: Fidel Castro's part

Where does this go?

Leng, Sidney (9 May 2019). "Fidel Castro's part in shaping China's economic link with Venezuela revealed by former bank governor". South China Morning Post. Retrieved 9 May 2019.

Guaicaipuro

Guaicaipuro, for another character that appears in the currency bills, its article has no sources!--ReyHahn (talk) 12:41, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

About that Iran oil article

I just saw that this was created 2020 Iran gasoline export to Venezuela, which would be fine if it was created under the perspective of Iran and US tensions, but I think it completely misses the perspective on Venezuela, an article on the gasoline shortages would have been more appropriate.--ReyHahn (talk) 09:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@ReyHahn: At first glance that seems to be the case, per WP:NOTNEWS I'm not sure that the article has notability on its own. I would recommend a merge with the bilateral relations or the sanctions article, but I agree on the need to create an article on fuel shortages. --Jamez42 (talk) 09:36, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreed a merge with Iran-Venezuela article or a change of title could help.--ReyHahn (talk) 09:48, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Emptying the AN?

@Jamez42, ReyHahn, and MaoGo: Do you know what CNN is talking about in this article? And if it actually changes anything? Foreign governments seem to responding, but don't really say what they're unhappy about. Kingsif (talk) 09:13, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

The foreign press on Venezuela since COVID-19 has been reduced. But a sudden boost on the subject seems to be caused by the controversies with the 2020 Venezuelan parliamentary election (more info in the Spanish version). How are the pandemic and the recent controversies related? it is unclear to me.--ReyHahn (talk) 09:24, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

ReyHahn has explained it quite well. The Supreme Tribunal has decided to name a new Electoral Council, as well as the directive of both Justice First and Democratic Action. The Attorney General has requested to dessignate Popular Will as a terrorist organization as well, and these are three of the four main opposition parties in Venezuela. The article is arguing that this has been done while the international community is distracted by the pandemic. --Jamez42 (talk) 17:03, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

First women deputies in Venezuela

I'm trying to identify the first women deputies in Venezuela, who were elected in 1946. However, almost every source I find has a different number or list of names.

The Inter-Parliamentary Union (which has not proved to be a terribly reliable source for other countries) states there were 12 women elected, which is collaborated by this source and this source. However, the two have four differences in their lists. This source claims 15, this one lists 16 and this one lists 17 (and there are still differences between the 16 and 17)... Is anyone able to identify which one is correct (or, if none of them are, one that is)? Cheers, Number 5 7 16:24, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Crime in Venezuela and bias

A user raised his concerns on Talk:Crime in Venezuela of bias and has performed several edits. I suggest somebody from this project should look into it.--ReyHahn (talk) 23:15, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Assessment

Is there a way to recover the assessment section of this project? Maybe with the help of a bot or something. Knowing what content is lacking in quality is a great way to coordinate future workshops, --Oscar_. (talk) 14:27, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

There used to be a bot that produced automatic reports. It either went defunct or stopped being run. It worked for all WikiProjects. Kingsif (talk) 16:52, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

What are you working on

All the pages that I follow on this project are mostly dead (even articles on politics), are you working on something right now? Also, who is still active on this project?--ReyHahn (talk) 17:22, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm mostly watching pages for any contentious edits, also working on art and architecture. Kingsif (talk) 18:00, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Is Template:VENAClassnomination still being used?

It doesn't appear to be, given that Category:A-Class Venezuela articles is empty. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:00, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Not for a while, but it could still be used to get some articles into that category. Kingsif (talk) 20:14, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Operation Gideon and Miami Herald

Can somebody check if these edits are in accordance with the source [6], apparently a coverage of Miami Herald has revealed further information about Operation Gideon, but I fail to see what this changes exactly.--ReyHahn (talk) 10:54, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

El Hatillo Municipality FAR

I have nominated El Hatillo Municipality for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Lele Pons

Talk:Lele Pons#Ownership SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:06, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Juan Guaidó and 2021

Hello Project members: @NoonIcarus, SandyGeorgia, Kingsif, Valenciagayagenda1555, CoryGlee, Alexismata7, Cyfraw, Bradford, Oscar ., Wilfredor, AntonioMartin, Leanex77, Dainshku, Vami IV, Naturista2018, Enmanuel, MetricSupporter89, and Bradford: Due to Reuters article announcing that the EU does not longer recognize Juan Guaidó as acting president [7], there are many discussions in articles related to the Venezuelan presidential crisis on how to proceed, is the crisis still on? Should we wait?. Specifically see Venezuelan_presidential_crisis#End_date. Further comment is needed from this Project to see how this problem should be handled. And if the consensus is that it is not over, further eyes are needed to watch related articles from political editing. (For those that do not wish to receive pings like this, unsubscribe from the project member list).--ReyHahn (talk) 08:22, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

We should wait the reaction from other regional countries first. There are countries like the US and Canada supporting him. --cyrfaw (talk) 10:43, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Given that other nations still do, the crisis is undoubtedly ongoing. The EU not recognizing Guaidó also isn't as effectual as it would have been even last week - Venezuela's gold reserves are held in Britain, which left the EU on Jan 1, and supposedly still recognizes Guaidó. It's easy to remove the EU from recognition lists. Kingsif (talk) 11:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

EU still does not recognize Maduro nor the new Parliament.--ReyHahn (talk) 11:49, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

One party state?

Should Venezuela be included in the list of one-party states? I do not know how it is exactly defined (and with Guaido and all it is actually more complicated), but if we focus on Maduro's administration, all state powers are de facto fully dominated by the same political coalition. What do you think?--ReyHahn (talk) 11:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I think not. Kingsif (talk) 15:57, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

XfD relisted: Category:Heroines of the Venezuelan War of Independence

Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 February 6 Kingsif (talk) 08:13, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Petro (cryptocurrency)#Requested move 27 March 2021

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Petro (cryptocurrency)#Requested move 27 March 2021 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 11:26, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Request of comment: Disputed presidency

A new discussion about the label "disputed" related to the presidential crisis has been opened here Talk:President of Venezuela#Should we stop claiming the status of the Venezuelan presidency is "disputed"?.--ReyHahn (talk) 07:33, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Olympic history

After my expansion of several early Olympic articles, and work on the just-passed Games ... and people mixing facts at Venezuela at the Olympics ... I noticed that this article is bare-bones. It doesn't need to be USA/GB level, but look at Colombia's! I hope to expand the article, first with a history section, and would love collaboration (specifically ping @NoonIcarus:, who I see has been contributing on Olympics articles) - so I started a draft space, but of course we can edit the article directly! Kingsif (talk) 18:04, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Enabling Act (Venezuela)

Anyone here interested in creating or translating the Ley habilitante, for the History of Venezuela (1999–present) article? Mhatopzz (talk) 11:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I created a gist of the article - Enabling law in Venezuela. Shari Garland (talk) 03:10, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

VENRS

@Kingsif: After the recent discussions on WP:VENRS, I thought we could continue the conversation here. We can ask the current members regarding their position on the issue, as well as update the entries. I'm concerned that there hasn't been much activity lately and some of the users are currently inactive, but it might be a good opportunity to restart coordination in the Wikiproject. Let me know if you wish to think about the phrasing of the RfC before proceeding. Regards! --NoonIcarus (talk) 13:35, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

At the time I updated said list, starting a section for inactive members (users that have not edited in any topic for over a year). I'll ping the remaining active members to answer to this @Alex Coiro, AVM, Decltype, Monni95, Wilfredor, AntonioMartin, Oscar ., Dainshku, Yv1hx, OliverDF, NoonIcarus, BiggestSataniaFangirl89, Vami IV, Naturista2018, Kingsif, TheCanadianAndNewYorker, ReyHahn, Cyfraw, Viva Nicolás, Bradford, Hasley, CoryGlee, Alexismata7, Drkatiebrown, Dunutubble, and Shari Garland: While there might not be a definitive question at hand currently and there can be an open overall discussion, I think it's safe to start asking the following: Regarding the current list of reliable sources of the WikiProject (WP:VENRS), is there any entry that needs to be added, modified, removed or else? I'm open to any feedback; best wishes! --NoonIcarus (talk) 21:58, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Commenting to say, "message received", but I have nothing further to add. If you think you can get the ball rolling on coordinating this project, though, I'll be glad to assist. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 02:16, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Feedback - the list of reputable sources is helpful. Shari Garland (talk) 03:10, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I am a bit distant from the Venezuelan topics at the moment but I would be glad to give my feedback in any discussion relating the project. --ReyHahn (talk) 09:58, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

None of the contentious material should even be added to Wikipedia. Non-contentious material might need two or three unrelated sources before it can be considered verifiable. It doesn't even matter if one of the sources listed as reputable publishes something if no other source publishes same information independently. Monni (talk) 14:21, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

What are these "arguments"!?
None of the contentious material should even be added to Wikipedia. - are you really trying to claim that nothing at all that can be disputed should be included on Wikipedia? Oh boy, do I have some articles for you to PROD then.
Non-contentious material might need two or three unrelated sources before it can be considered verifiable. It doesn't even matter if one of the sources listed as reputable publishes something if no other source publishes same information independently. - so absolutely everything, completely non-contentious, reported by an amazing source, needs another good source, completely separately to the first, to also report the information for it to be permitted in your world?
Geez, we take sourcing seriously at Wikipedia but your standards are far too exclusionary. Barely anything would ever be written about if those were actual rules. Kingsif (talk) 01:58, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Article naming (not)

Seen this mess ? Next Venezuelan presidential election SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:00, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: I can see background information that could be trimmed and potential original research. Is there anything else we could look into? --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:19, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

The article name seems wonky, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:41, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Righto. I see there also exist the Next Falkland Islands general election and Next Guyanese general election articles. Do you have a title in mind? --NoonIcarus (talk) 09:21, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

No, up to my eyeballs in work here and real life issues, haven't had time, which is why I put it here :0 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:13, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

The article title is standard for elections of unknown dates. However, if the election is scheduled for 2024 (presidential elections are usually scheduled, unlike parliamentary ones), then it can be moved to 2024 Venezuelan presidential election. Number 5 7 16:37, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Venezuelan YuYu

Does anybody know about this Venezuelan Yuyu? Should we keep it? It does not have any reliable references. It is implying a strong relation between María Lionza myth and African Voodoo (which is maybe partially true) but the terms used in Venezuelan Yuyu are somewhat very speculative compared to what I have found in the references for the article of María Lionza. Specifically "Yuyu" and the African deities. See my comments on the talk of the article.--ReyHahn (talk) 06:03, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Moved to draft space. Done --ReyHahn (talk) 11:17, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

(Somewhat) new foreign minister, templates need updating

See here. I don't know how to find the source of the sidebar seen here. Little help? InedibleHulk (talk) 17:00, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

@InedibleHulk: Which sidebar? This one? Kingsif (talk) 10:12, 7 February 2023 (UTC) Wow that really needs updating. Kingsif (talk) 10:15, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, the bottom part, particularly. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:53, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Review of Simón Bolívar at GAN underway, expect FAC soon

Countrymen~! I have news. After a year of labor, Simón Bolívar is finally undergoing a review at GAN on its road to FAC. At either process (or preferably both) I would appreciate eyes, ears, and commentary. I am aiming to at least be in the process of FAC by 24 July 2023, if not to have TFA by then. 17 December 2023 is my fallback goal, and more likely. I look forward to whatever assistance or guidance anybody watching this page can offer or spare. –♠Vamí _IV†♠ 22:53, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 22:20, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

RfC: VENRS

An RfC about WikiProject Venezuela/Reliable and unreliable sources has been started. NoonIcarus (talk) 14:02, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Operation Gideon (2020) move request relist

The current request to move the Operation Gideon (2020) article to 2020 Venezuelan coup d'état attempt has been relisted. NoonIcarus (talk) 11:19, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Sun parakeet#Requested move 27 June 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sun parakeet#Requested move 27 June 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. UtherSRG (talk) 11:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at International sanctions during the Venezuelan crisis

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:International sanctions during the Venezuelan crisis#Requested move 29 June_2023 that may be of interest for the members of this WikiProject.--ReyHahn (talk) 17:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Paid editor

Be on the lookout for edits from now banned user:FoCuSandLeArN (way too many edits to individually examine). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:34, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Operation Gideon (2020)#Requested move 19 July 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Operation Gideon (2020)#Requested move 19 July 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 06:27, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Operation Gideon (2020)#2020 Venezuelan coup attempt round III

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Operation Gideon (2020)#2020 Venezuelan coup attempt round III regarding changing the name from Operation Gideon to 2020 Venezuelan coup attempt that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ReyHahn (talk) 08:58, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

More Women in Venezuela

I just rediscovered Women in Venezuela, I just cleaned it up and saw that there were no examples of women in science. So I added some and enlarged the examples sections to allow for more. It would be great if you could contribute with more examples from other fields like fashion, sports, human sciences or whatever field that you think is missing and that we can have some good examples. Of course a few mentions per field is enough. ReyHahn (talk) 23:16, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

@ReyHahn: Taking a look at it, I'm surprised too that there weren't examples of women in science, although it was only later that I noticed that each section only included a few examples. Yulimar Rojas definitely should be included in sports, I'll try to come to it later having other articles as examples. --NoonIcarus (talk) 15:37, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

I added a few sections, although I noticed how vastly different each country article is Argentina, Chile, Colombia, United States. The current structure can remain, while anyone is free to make any needed changes. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:42, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Great additions. As for the structure, I noticed that too. I will leave a comment on the WP:LAT but I do not expect much activity or coordination from that Wikiproject. Onto another topic, something should be written about Miss Venezuela/Miss Universe, it has clearly a large influence in Venezuela both positive and negative, but we must be careful on what we write about it.--ReyHahn (talk) 18:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

In es:Venezuela there is a good example of what could be added to article on Venezuela beauty peagants. I will use it as an example for now (but I will look for English sources first).--ReyHahn (talk) 21:54, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I did my part in there four years ago (when the article made me barf). No mention of Irene Saez or Maria Corina Machado in politics ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:51, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

If one can write a clearly notable description for both of them, then go on. But if no, it opens the door a large list of women in politics.--ReyHahn (talk) 01:36, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Oof, you're definitely right. I have added them, along with Mercedes Carvajal de Arocha. I think Ismenia Villalba and Ixora Rojas Paz, who were the first presidential candidate and president of the Chamber of Deputies, respectively, but I'm keeping the section with three individuals for the moment. Please let me know if the descriptions are alright, along with @ReyHahn:. --NoonIcarus (talk) 11:45, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder that the ratio of Venezuelan beauty pageant contestants to All Other Venezuelan women was (and likely still is) atrocious. Kingsif (talk) 12:20, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Article request: Sergio Vergara

Would anyone have time to stub up an article on Sergio Vergara (whatever became of Marrero)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:29, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: I have just translated Vergara's article from Spanish (Sergio Vergara (politician)), although admittedly it particularly neeeds some fixes, including in referencing and updates. --NoonIcarus (talk) 11:44, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Do you have access to the information that he was arrested and imprisoned ala Marrero? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:05, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Any time :) It seems that Vergara was indicted on charges after the 2019 uprising.[8] Some sources mention that Vergara was arrested the same day as Marrero[9] (maybe briefly?), but what seems to be clear is that his home was raided and that his bodyguard, Luis Páez, effectively was detained.[10] --NoonIcarus (talk) 10:49, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Women in Green's 5th Edit-a-thon

Hello WikiProject Venezuela:

WikiProject Women in Green is holding a month-long Good Article Edit-a-thon event in October 2023!

Running from October 1 to 31, 2023, WikiProject Women in Green (WiG) is hosting a Good Article (GA) edit-a-thon event with the theme Around the World in 31 Days! All experience levels welcome. Never worked on a GA project before? We'll teach you how to get started. Or maybe you're an old hand at GAs – we'd love to have you involved! Participants are invited to work on nominating and/or reviewing GA submissions related to women and women's works (e.g., books, films) during the event period. We hope to collectively cover article subjects from at least 31 countries (or broader international articles) by month's end. GA resources and one-on-one support will be provided by experienced GA editors, and participants will have the opportunity to earn a special WiG barnstar for their efforts.

We hope to see you there!

Grnrchst (talk) 13:55, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Article request: Wilmer Azuaje

NoonIcarus, do you have time for one more ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:53, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Hi! Gladly, already

Done There are some few tweaks I want to do, but I'll probably leave them for tomorrow, when I'm planning to remove the tag. --NoonIcarus (talk) 23:20, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you ever so muchly ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:47, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Anytime 😊 I have just added more recent information and his report regarding Operation Gideon. DeepL Translate is a tool that I discovered recently and I use along with Wikipedia's translation function, I'm sure it can be useful for reviewing sources in foreign languages too. If I'm not mistaken, Azuaje also submitted a similar report of El Junquito raid. However, I wanted to note that being a translation from the Spanish article, it also has the same issues, including having outdated information. There is currently a gap between 2010 and 2017 or 2019. I'll leave this info here for future editors too. --NoonIcarus (talk) 19:52, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Expansion and update needed: Franklin Durán

Very dated, Franklin Durán. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I was completely oblivious that Durán was involved in the maletinazo scandal. To be honest I think it's unlikely that I'll update the article soon, but I'll come back in case I find anything. --NoonIcarus (talk) 19:58, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Leocenis Garcia

Leocenis Garcia just "came across my desk", and looks to be kind of a mess, but I'm heading out for the evening and busy for days, in case anyone can have a look. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:33, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: To provide some context, the version in Spanish had a lot of promotional recreations before it was finally salted. I think that Leocenis is definitely a notable person that needs an article: he's the founder of a former newspaper (6to Poder), founded a political party that achieved representation in the National Assembly, has been detained several times and has been a political candidate. However, promotional editing and possibly conflicts of interest have definitely been an issue and needs more oversight from the community. --NoonIcarus (talk) 23:29, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I did a bit of cleanup, but no time for source checking, and it's still a wreck. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I notified the creator of the article about this discussion ([11]). --NoonIcarus (talk) 15:38, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Dear @NoonIcarus thanks you for the invitation! as a new user and since this is my new article I could make mistakes and I respect any decisions you made. I wrote the article as just an encyclopedic contribution and do not have any intensions towards it! You guys are experienced editors and so I will learn from your actions and edits on it forward! Thanks again for inviting me here! And I enjoy looking any suggestions and Ideas that raised here and for Ideas that will be raised in the future! Worldviewfrom (talk) 17:05, 9 September 2023 (UTC) — Worldviewfrom (talk · contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of Eyoab (talk · contribs).

@Worldviewfrom: I forgot to respond to this, sorry. One of my main concerns was due to promotional edits in the Spanish Wikipedia about Leocenis García. --NoonIcarus (talk) 09:26, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't know what's going on at that article, but don't have much interest in continuing cleanup. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:48, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Gone, created by a sock. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

PS, NoonIcarus if you are concerned to write his article, I saved the valid sources offline. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Many thanks, Sandy. I probably won't do it in the near future, but I will add that per WP:TNT now it should be easier to start the article over that meets Wikipedia's policies. --NoonIcarus (talk) 09:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Eyes on BLPs, Interpol red alert

BLP noticeboard alert. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

With all we have seen going on and with the next Venezuelan presidential election coming up I predict (and I hope I am wrong) that a large number of English Wikipedia articles on Venezuela are going to be filled of undue edits or removals. We had this kind of activity in 2019. If history repeats itself, in a year or less after the elections, editing the articles will become less tense. I will try to take note of the articles where the largest changes are happening. We will need to reevaluate them in the future. I suggest to focus on keeping an eye on WP:BLP and upcoming ITN events.--ReyHahn (talk) 22:23, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

That's correct, we can keep track for future edits. --NoonIcarus (talk) 07:45, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Venezuelanalysis RfC

There is a new RfC on Venezuelanalysis in the noticeboard Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: Venezuelanalysis ReyHahn (talk) 18:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. --NoonIcarus (talk) 20:05, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Statute Governing the Transition to Democracy

The Statute Governing the Transition to Democracy was tagged for speedy deletion as spam (admin rejected). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:57, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Correo del Orinoco (Orinoco Tribune) RfC

There is a new RfC on Correo del Orinoco in the RSN: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: Correo del Orinoco (Orinoco Tribune). --NoonIcarus (talk) 12:49, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Was this RfC closed?--ReyHahn (talk) 08:32, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

@ReyHahn: I just found out that it was archived (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 417#RfC: Correo del Orinoco (Orinoco Tribune)), maybe automatically. It does not have a closing statement. --NoonIcarus (talk) 09:14, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Because it was not set up with an RFC tag or with a donotarchive ... I have unarchived it and added the donotarchive, but look at the top of every other RFC in edit mode to see what should have been done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:55, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Seems like the same happened to PanAm Post, see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_418.--ReyHahn (talk) 13:32, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

United States involvement in regime change in Latin America has an RFC

United States involvement in regime change in Latin America has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. WMrapids (talk) 18:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

El Politigato AFD

Re-listed for the third time at AFD, needs more feedback: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/El Politigato. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Nos quieren muertos

A Leopoldo López biography, Nos quieren muertos (ISBN 9788467071009), was recently released. I understand that includes information of recent events such as the 2019 Venezuelan uprising attempt, and it would be a good biographical material, in case anybody can find it. Kind regards, NoonIcarus (talk) 10:20, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I purchased it, but I'm none too thrilled that the chapters don't have titles, only numbers, so one can't easily locate certain topics or dates; it looks like I'll have to read the whole book, cover to cover-- which I'll wait to do until I'm traveling and wasting time in the car or on a plane. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of books, although it has come up on multiple articles, the fact that book sources need page numbers or chapters has not been registered and books are still being added without them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:30, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah, that's excellent. Please let us know what you think of it.

I agree that both quotes and pages should be used in references to help with verification, as this has also been an issue in other articles. --NoonIcarus (talk) 13:37, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

So far, it's pretty lightweight reading ... my initial impression, subject to change, is that it won't be very useful other than to support Lopez's viewpoints. But again, because the chapters don't have titles, I can't hone in easily on any one topic to study in depth. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Not long ago I noticed that the bookstore across my street was selling it, so I bought a copy. I probably won't be reading it any time soon, but I really look forward for it. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:00, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Colectivo (Venezuela)

A current discussion is taking place regarding the neutrality of the article Colectivo (Venezuela). Feel free to take a look and participate!--WMrapids (talk) 20:48, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

New article

... at Venezuelan opposition. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:53, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

And Guarimba as well. It has the same issues as with other edits. I have tried fixing them, but they were reverted. I will try being more specific in the talk page later. --NoonIcarus (talk) 22:41, 17 November 2023 (UTC)