User talk:John Hill/Archive 7

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Bactrian names

Hello John,

I would greatly appreciate if you could provide me with a transcriptions of the names of places and figures, names of languages, of the Kushan Empire, in sources such as the Rabatak inscriptions etc, from the original Bactrian form, or perhaps point to some source that contains such a list. Also, from what language(s) are derived the forms, Kanishka and Kushan?

Abubakr Khalidi (talk) 08:26, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi Abubakr,

Here are some references which I found useful and which, hopefully, will be of interest to you -

• Fussman (1998): “L’inscription de Rabatak et l’origine de l’ère saka.” Gérard Fussman. Journal Asiatique286.2 (1998), pp. 571-651. (in French)
• Mac Dowall (2002): “The Rabatak Inscription and the nameless Kushan king.” David W. Mac Dowell. In: Cairo to Kabul: Afghan and Islamic Studies presented to Ralph Pinder-Wilson. Edited by Warwick Ball and Leonard Harrow. Melisende, London, 2002, pp. 163-169.
• Sims-Williams and Cribb (1995/6): “A New Bactrian Inscription of Kanishka the Great.” Nicholas Sims-Williams & Joe Cribb. Silk Road Art and Archaeology 4 (1996), pp. 75-142.
• Sims-Williams (1997): “New Findings in Ancient Afghanistan – the Bactrian documents discovered from the Northern Hindu-Kush.” A lecture given by Nicholas Sims-Williams in Tokyo in 1997. Downloaded 16/4/02 from: http://www.gengo.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~hkum/bactrian.html
• Sims-Williams (1998): “Further notes on the Bactrian inscription of Rabatak, with an Appendix on the names of Kujula Kadphises and Vima Taktu in Chinese.” Nicholas Sims-Williams. Proceedings of the Third European Conference of Iranian Studies Part 1: Old and Middle Iranian Studies. Edited by Nicholas Sims-Williams. Wiesbaden. 1998, pp. 79-93.
• Sims-Williams (2000): “The Iranian Inscriptions of Shatial.” Nicholas Sims-Williams. Indologica Taurinensia, Volume XXIII-XXIV. Edizioni A.I.T., Torina. 1997-98 [2000], pp. 524-541.
• Sims-Williams (2002): “Ancient Afghanistan and its invaders: Linguistic evidence from the Bactrian documents and inscriptions.” Nicholas Sims-Williams. In: IILP, Proceedings of the British Academy, 116, 225-242.
• Sims-Williams (undated): “Bactrian Language.” N. Sims-Williams. In: Encyclopaedia Iranica, pp. 344-349. Downloaded 20/4/07 from: http://www.iranica.com/articlenavigation/index.html.

Unfortunately, no one knows for sure what language the names Kanishka and Kushan came from, although there has been much speculation. The Chinese used Guishuang for Kushan but, beyond that I am unable to say much - at least so far. All best wishes, John Hill (talk) 09:09, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Upsetting People

Hi Fellow editor, on a recent edit summary you deleted some material because you feared it woul "upset" some people. I would like to remind you that as editors we should WP:Be Bold. Unless it is degrading, insulting, defemating or libelous, we should not be scared to include information that merely "upsets" people. I say this because I have been the target of abuse from editors because they deem that their particular group has a certain status. If there is anything you learn about Indians, it is that almost all of them believe themselves to be Kshatriya, and they get upset when you do not agree. I think we should fight these hang ups (my own group is included in this btw). Any views? Thanks--Sikh-History 14:06, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi! I am so glad you wrote on this contentious subject - one that has been troubling me for years. In principle I agree with you totally. On the matter of caste, though - I have found through long and bitter arguments (as I am sure you would be aware) that any mention of caste is likely to stir up reams of heated debate that never seems to get anywhere and is just a great waste of time and energy (two things I am running short of).

Also, I believe that the caste system is gradually breaking down and I try not to contribute to people digging their heels in over caste issues. Additionally, I think that saying whether a caste is a caste of peasants, warriors or "royals" is, fortunately, becoming increasing irrelevant in the modern world as we find people of all castes (and casteless people as well) taking up and working in roles completely unthinkable just a few decades ago. This, I believe is an extremely positive development, and one which may allow India to be a much fairer and happier society and allow millions to lead far more fulfilling lives. Certainly Jats are found working in practically every possible occupation these days. So, to refer to them as a "peasant caste" is becoming not only more and more irrelevant, but actually serves mostly to cause division and bad feeling. Perhaps a way around this would be to put things in the past tense. For example, it might be possible in the article to say (without, hopefully, starting another bitter feud) that Jats were previously considered to belong to a peasant caste. I would very much appreciate your thoughts on all this. Many thanks for bringing it up. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 22:30, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

PS. About the use of Encyclopedia Britannica: As it is, like WP, a secondary source, it should be used with great caution - especially on contentious issues. Furthermore, aa it is in competition with WP, I prefer not to use it as a source unless others are not available. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 23:11, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Burma

Hello Master John! How are you. If you want the reason of my absence email me and I'll let you now. Yes we now have templates for most townships of Burma thanks to the "Great Fork" (User:Plastikspork). The plan is to use google maps and identify settlements which look of note and to use google book search to find info on them like Kutkai, Shwenyaungbin, Gwebin etc. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 23:05, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Newfoundland Beothuk

Hi John;

I would be very interestedin anything you may have found with regard to descendants of the Beothuk in Newfoundland. It has always been bantered around in my family that there has to be a native bloodline from my fathers mother. (white surname from twillingate). however no actual information has been found. about 15 years ago someone had contacted my grandmother was contacted by someone researching the Beothuk about a child between a Beothuk and a person with surname Wite in twillingate. How my grandmother was "offended" by this and the name of the person doing the research has been lost. I have been told a number of times that I have definite physical traits of native canadian (american) people.

If you would like to discuss this further It would be great to hear from you

Ed Boone 72.139.17.201 (talk) 15:14, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

The Bathysphere

Hi John,

If you’ve been following my progress on the William Beebe article, you’ll know that I’ve been adding information about Beebe’s life in chronological order, and I’m now at the point in his life right before the beginning of his bathysphere dives. I’ve encountered a potential difficulty related to this. There is probably about as much source material describing Beebe’s bathysphere dives as there is about the rest of his life combined, and if I go into as much detail about this as the source material does, the section about his bathysphere dives is going to completely overwhelm the rest of the article. It’ll also probably make the article too long. However, a lot of this information is definitely notable and still deserves to be included on Wikipedia.

What I’m thinking of doing is expanding the Bathysphere (vessel) article to provide a detailed account of this, and then only providing a link and a shorter summary in the Beebe article. If I do this, though, I’ll want to write the detailed account for the Bathysphere article before I write the summary for the Beebe article, because I think it’ll be easier for me to do things in that order. So this would mean having to stop working on the Beebe article for as long as it takes me to make my expansion of the Bathysphere article. Is it all right with you if I temporarily leave the Beebe article in its current half-finished state while I do this? --Captain Occam (talk) 10:43, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Chinese townships

Hello Master John! Fab work as normal on the Xinijiang townships. I did create a List of township-level divisions of Xinjiang which needs filling out like List of township-level divisions of Anhui.Eventually it would be nice to have articles on every township level division in China and templates for every prefecture like Template:Anqing!♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:51, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Aw, you're too kind. Thanks friend. Lovely to see you writing good articles on places in Xinjiang!!♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:58, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Categories for discussion nomination of Category:Filipina poets

Category:Filipina poets, which you created, has been nominated for discussion. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. ukexpat (talk) 16:18, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your review of Ivy Alvarez for DYK

Hi John! Thank you so much for reviewing my biography of Ivy Alvarez for DYK, and for saying nice things about it. Have a wonderful day!--DracoEssentialis (talk) 22:07, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Hello, John Hill. You have new messages at DracoEssentialis's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Two unrelated things

So I responded to your comment about the James R. Whelan DYK, which hopefully you can address. But also on a totally unrelated note (I realized I can just combine the two of these, I originally didn't notice it was your nom) I found a grammatical problem at your nomination for Joseph Lennox Pawan, but proposed a solution that's hopefully acceptable. Thanks!--Yaksar (let's chat) 00:26, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

• Well thank you! It's much appreciated, and your nom was definitely an interesting article to read. Is there any other issue that needs to be dealt with on the Whelan DYK, or is it possible that could be approved now? Thanks again! --Yaksar (let's chat) 05:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Muziris

Your comments on the talk page of Muziris really interested me. I am a Life Member of Kerala Council for Historical Research (KCHR) Friend’s Forum. KCHR is now busy with the Muziris Heritage Project and the excavations there.

I am planning to update the article after visiting the site in the near future. In the meanwhile I shall try to edit this article basing on the papers that I have received from KCHR. I am not sure whether Wikipedia will accept them as reliable sources.

The ancient name of this port was MuciriPattanam. So I think the article, Pattanam, be merged with this article Muziris.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 09:06, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Jat or Jatt tribes/clans of India

HI JOHN, COULD YOU A RECOMMEND A GOOD HISTORY BOOK ON THE JATT TRIBES/CLANS OF PAKISTAN/INDIA? I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

THANK YOU — Preceding unsigned comment added by B91FEG (talk • contribs) 18:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi! thanks for your note. As you must know if you have been keeping an eye on the Jat people and other Jat-related articles in the WP, the origins and history of the Jats is one of the most fiercely contested and argued about subjects in the Wikipedia. This is probably due to many factors including the fact that it is not certain that people who call themselves Jats (or Jatts) today all originated from the same group; the fact that they are divided into three major religious groups, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims; that it is not really clear as to whether they should be considered an ethnic "tribe" or a caste (or many castes) or just as a community of people who consider themselves to be Jats; that many sources claim they were originally herdsmen or peasants but, several hundred years ago some became rulers in various states in India and so were referred to by themselves and the British conquerors as a "Royal" "race" or "caste"; that they have been ridiculed and put down by other groups of people and castes and, therefor,e some have tried to create a glorious history to counteract this abuse; that some have claimed divine descent (particularly from Krishna) and have made claims that this is "historical fact"; that others have claimed that they are the only "pure Aryans"; that some claim they are descended from Scythians, Huns and other tribes which invaded India, while others claim they originally left India only to return as one or the other of these tribes; that some claim they are closely related to the Gypsies of Europe and the subcontinent while others strongly deny this, etc., etc., etc. Because of all these conflicting claims and arguments (often held with the fervor one usually associates with fanatics) it is almost impossible to present any generally agreed upon history, and whatever position one takes one will be attacked by others with conflicting views. I myself have been threatened with physical violence several times for presenting what I thought were fairly balanced and non-controversial and well-refernced assertions. Additionally, many of the so-called "hisotries" of the Jats are clearly very one-sided and often seem quite fanatical or fantastic to non-Jat readers, frequently making all sorts of unsupported (or very poorly supported) and dubious claims.

So, to try to answer your question - no, I don't know of any history of Jats/Jatts that I could recommend as reliable. The one I have found most plausible and reasoned is: Forming an Identity: A Social History of the Jats. (1999). Nonica Datta and published by Oxford University Press, ISBN 019564719-X. But, I must warn you that, when I referred to this book and gave it as a reference on various pages on Wikipedia I was fiercely attacked and abused by people claiming it was terribly biased.

Sorry to be so negative, but the history of the Jats does seem to me to be such a touchy subject that almost anything written about it is sure to enrage one group or another. But, best wishes, and I do hope you may be able to help heal wounds and work towards a genearally agreed and well-backed history for this large and influential and very diverse group/caste/race/clan/community, or whatever you like to call it. My own personal experiences with my Jat friends throughout my life has been wonderfully enriching and I have great admiration for the vast majority of Jats - but I must warn you that there are certainly some very angry and mean Jat fanatics out there. With all best wishes, John Hill (talk) 02:26, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

A question about the William Beebe article

Hi John,

I’m sorry I haven’t had time to work on this article lately. I’m not finished with it yet, but I’ve recently become involved in another arbitration case, which has kept me occupied on Wikipedia for the past few weeks. I also see that you’ve added David Snow’s Birds in Our Life to the article’s reference section, so I’m assuming that this book contains some useful information about Beebe, and I’ve purchased a copy of it in order to use it as a source. It’s being shipped from England, though, and I live in the United States, so I’ll have to wait a while for it.

Anyway, there’s something I’ve been wanting to ask you about this article for whenever I get back to it. One of the sources that I’m using, Robert Welker’s biography, has some information that I think I’ll want to include related to A. E. Hill, Beebe’s physician during the last few years of his life. What I’d like to know is, is A. E. Hill the same person whom you’ve labeled as “Ted Hill” in the photographs that you’ve uploaded? If so, I think the labels on the photographs should be changed to call Dr. Hill the same thing that he’s called in the source material. I’m assuming that Ted Hill and A. E. Hill probably are the same person, but I’d like to make sure of that before changing the labels. --Captain Occam (talk) 17:42, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Hello, John Hill. You have new messages at Captain Occam's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Welcome John!

Hope you are well? ‡ Himalayan ‡ ^ΨMonastery 14:00, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Wording of "autonomous areas" at Tibet

Sorry, but I will interpret your addition of quotes, especially "so-called", to the term in that article as your own personal analysis, and possibly subtle unnecessary POV (not pushing though). Also, where did you go to if you spent more than 30 continuous days in China? I rarely hear of American tourists (?) spending in excess of even 21 days in that land. --HXL's Roundtable and Record 00:55, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

• I understand your point but "autonomous" in English means "independent". The Wiktionary defines "autonomous" as: "1.Self-governing. Governing independently," and for synonyms gives "(governing independently): sovereign, self-governing". See: [1]
• No region within the PRC, the UK, USA, Canada, Australia, India, etc., etc., can truly be considered "autonomous" as they come under the "central" or "federal" government. "Provinces," "states," "territories," etc., usually have some local government powers, but they cannot govern independently or be considered "sovereign" or "autonomous" states.
• I have been several times to China and together those trips add up to well over a month. Hope this answers your queries, Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 05:00, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Dubious source

Hi John, As the resident Jade Gate scholar, I wanted to ask your opinion about a Chinese publication. Both Chinese Buddhism and Silk Road transmission of Buddhism similarly claim that Qin Shihuang banned Buddhist temples, citing a recent article by Han Wei. This long-discredited interpretation, apparently first proposed by Fujita Toyohachi 藤田丰八, phonetically reads "Buddha" for the auxiliary verb bude 不得 "must not" in the Shiji's 禁不得祠, "It was forbidden to offer sacrifices to the Morning Star" (tr. Watson p. 53 [cribbed through Google Books]). I found this but can't find any English articles that dispute this bude=Buddha interpretation. Do you know of any reliable sources? Keahapana (talk) 01:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi again! What could possibly have induced people to believe that Qin Shihuang banned Buddhist temples? It seems so very unlikely there was any significant Buddhist influence in China at the time. Sorry, but all I can find is negative information. Perhaps the most convincing (for me) was that the 7-volume Grand Ricci Chinese to French dictionary, which was written by Jesuits and has every conceivable term relating to religions in it, gives only the usual interpretations for 不得. If they had ever ccome across even one example of it being used to indicate the Buddha they would surely have included it. I also went through old typewritten notes by Fr. Yves Raguin, S. J., on early religions in China, who for 40 years was head of the dictionary project (he died before it was completed), and found nary a mention of 不得. The same goes for several other references I checked. Apologies, though, for not finding any conclusive evidence. Good luck with it all. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 07:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for checking. You're right to expect that the Grand Ricci would enter every known Chinese transcription of "Buddha". I'll post a discussion question on Silk Road transmission of Buddhism and see what happens. Cheers, Keahapana (talk) 02:24, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Clarification

Hi John,

I apologize if some of the edits came across as offensive or intrusive. Most of the time, my edits are just meant to serve as tweaks or minor attempts to make a passage or subject slightly easier to read for everyone. Especially in some historical areas. When certain pages are linked, I like to see similar usage of common dating and era noting. Thus, one some subjects that are heavily linked or have a cross-relationship I sometimes will make the switch as others have mentioned to me (much like myself) they do not like seeing the differences. That is my purpose for some of the changes you noticed apparently.

Much respect, ~L — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lonewulf44 (talk • contribs) 20:15, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks so much - now I understand why you were doing the edits. Actually, this problem of whether to use the Common Era (BCE and CE) or the Christian Era (BC and AD) - in which the actual dates are the same - has apparently been a rather contentious one on WP. The decision was that either could be used, and that the system first used after an article was created should take preference. The problem with this ruling is that it often takes a lot of time searching through the history of the article to discover which was used first - especially if the first dates were not added for some time after the article was created.
• I must apologise too. I must have seemed quite rude myself, reversing your edits as I did. It is just that there are some editors who seem to feel all Common Era dates should be changed back to the Christian Era equivalents as a matter of course. I have had people doing to articles I have just created and even changing the eras in quotes (which never should be done), so I am a bit sensitive about it.
• My own position is that the Christian Era - even according to most Christian scholars - is not accurate in terms of when Jesus was born anyway, and people of other religions (or no religion) are often uncomfortable using abbreviations which mean "before Christ" (BC) or "in the year of our Lord" (AD). So I prefer to use the more neutral abbreviations, BCE and CE respectively. It seems to me that if we insist on BC and AD, we will have people wanting to use the Indian Saka Era, the Muslim Era, the Buddhist Era, etc., instead of the Christian (or Common) era, which would cause huge confusion as the dates would all be different. But, this is just my personal view. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 22:36, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks.

I wasn't expecting to receive a barnstar for my work on the William Beebe article until I'd finished working on it, which I haven't yet. But thanks: this will definitely help motivate me to do the additional work it'll require to finish it. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:29, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Portals

Hi, I reverted your addition of the portal over at the dodo article, but for some reason it saved before I could write why in the edit summary, but I wanted to say that the portal is already in the article, though at the bottom, and that putting them so far up messes up the layout, so put them in the see also section or ref section instead. FunkMonk (talk) 06:44, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi! I wondered what was happening when I was trying to add the portal tag! Thank you very much for your good advice. I will try to follow it. Cheers and best wishes, John Hill (talk) 07:56, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

You're welcome! FunkMonk (talk) 10:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I have replied ...

... on Talk:Ganges. Look forward to your feedback. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Tectocoris diophthalmus

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I am just in the process of creating the article - please give me a chance to edit it. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 02:01, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Funny you should say that as I've been feeling less productive of late! Of course I have been creating the evil lairs of the late Osama bin Laden, Osama bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad and Osama bin Laden's house in Khartoum though! Have a great trip my friend, I saw you wildlife articles and photos, great job!♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:37, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Dr. John Hill. It is a along time since I got a message from you after your India trip. Yes, Dr. B and me are enjoying writing a DYK a day or even more. It is fun. I hope I can continue as long as I work on some thing (some business) or the other (wikipedia) and keep myself busy and not worry about my age.--Nvvchar. 11:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Qur'an article

I was glad to see your recent comments on the Qur'an article. Please enter your vote in the poll that is being conducted for a return to the long-standing spelling. Best wishes, Abdullajh (talk) 04:22, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

How does it look?

I think I’m finished making major changes to the William Beebe article at this point. I may still clean up the references some more, and I’m also going to try to get it up to GA status eventually, but at this point I’d appreciate you letting me know if you have any suggestions about it in terms of overall content. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:01, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Your recent edits to the Beebe article broke some of the references. When you’re using the same citation more than once, you have to make sure you refer to the citation by the same name wherever you cite it; otherwise it generates an error. I’ve fixed that problem now, but please try to be careful about it in the future.

If you’re looking for anything else you can do to improve this article, one other thing that Bgwhite is helping me with is converting the citations to use the harvnb template. He’s already done this for the Gould, Cullen and Berra books, but it still needs to be done for Welker’s, Matsen’s and Rudder’s. You can look at the format of the citations where he’s done this already to get an idea of what it should be for the others. Are you interested in helping with that? --Captain Occam (talk) 20:51, 31 May 2011 (UTC)~

Sorry about broken references and I apologise for any inconvenience. Also, unfortunately, I won't be able to help with the template - I am only here in Vancouver, Canada for another few days (to celebrate my mother's 97th) - so I will be really busy with family matters. Then, next Monday we leave for 5 weeks travel in China. I do hope it goes well and smoothly, though. I am worried others may find the article a bit long but, other than this, I think the article is ready to submit for consideration for GA status and I send you all best wishes for that. I have had great fun showing the article to some of my family here who had met Beebe and they were all thrilled to see it. Thanks again for the hard work you have put into it - it is much appreciated. John Hill (talk) 01:41, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Why are you archiving my Talk page - and why doesn't the archive you have created show up on it?

I just noticed that User:MiszaBot III has archived material from my Talk page twice and there is no record left on my Talk page to show where the correspondence has been placed. Would you please explain to me why this has been done and how people can access these archives? Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 03:07, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Apparently you did it, back in April. The bot has been moving sections to /Archive 1. To maintain consistency with your other archive pages, you could move that to /Archive 7, change the bot accordingly (i.e. set |counter = 7), and add the link to your archive box.

—WWoods (talk) 07:08, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks so much for explaining what happened with my archives. I must be getting really forgetful in my old age! I have no memory of doing this and, apparently, I made a mess of it. :( Unfortunately, I can't deal with it all right away as I leave for China this morning - will get to it as soon as I can. I really appreciate your help and patience. Best wishes, John Hill (talk) 14:51, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

... so I did that. —WWoods (talk) 15:07, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Tibetan naming conventions

A while back, I posted a new proposal for Tibetan naming conventions, i.e. conventions that can be used to determine the most appropriate titles for articles related to the Tibetan region. This came out of discussions about article titles on Talk:Qamdo and Talk:Lhoka (Shannan) Prefecture. I hope that discussions on the proposal's talk page will lead to consensus in favour of making these conventions official, but so far only a few editors have left comments. If you would be interested in taking a look at the proposed naming conventions and giving your opinion, I would definitely appreciate it. Thanks—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 20:54, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Why are you archiving my Talk page - and why doesn't the archive you have created show up on it?

I just noticed that User:MiszaBot III has archived material from my Talk page twice and there is no record left on my Talk page to show where the correspondence has been placed. Would you please explain to me why this has been done and how people can access these archives? Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 03:07, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Apparently you did it, back in April. The bot has been moving sections to /Archive 1. To maintain consistency with your other archive pages, you could move that to /Archive 7, change the bot accordingly (i.e. set |counter = 7), and add the link to your archive box.

—WWoods (talk) 07:08, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks so much for explaining what happened with my archives. I must be getting really forgetful in my old age! I have no memory of doing this and, apparently, I made a mess of it. :( Unfortunately, I can't deal with it all right away as I leave for China this morning - will get to it as soon as I can. I really appreciate your help and patience. Best wishes, John Hill (talk) 14:51, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

... so I did that. —WWoods (talk) 15:07, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Article Muziris

It seems that the quality of the article Muziris is below standards.

Pls contribute to make it good? (Rameez pp (talk) 13:19, 30 June 2011 (UTC))

Insciption & Article Muziris

About the Tamil inscription: File:Roman_Tamil_Inscription_Muziris_BC_345.png, looks fake to me. More study is required on this Inscription.

About the article: There are so many discrepencies in this article. There is another article Pattanam with the same contents. I am planning to update one of them and merge them or delete one of them. Am I correct?Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:30, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Reply to Questions re Muziris

Thanks to Users Rameez and Neduvelilmathew for your comments about the Muziris and Pattanam articles above. Apologies for my late reply. I have been travelling for the past couple of months - often with no, or very limited, internet access. I am in Luoyang, China at the moment and, unfortunately, cannot get any of the images in these articles to download, so it is impossible for me to make any worthwhile comments on things such as whether one of the images might be a fake at least until after I return home about the middle of this month. Also, I am by no means an expert on such matters and am not qualified to give an opinion as to whether an image might be fake.

Is there any chance that there might be other WP editors with expert knowledge in this field? Perhaps we could start by contacting whoever originally posted the image and asking them details on its provenance, etc? User:Neduvelilmathew - would you be able to follow up on this?

As to whether the articles on Muziris and Pattanam should be combined - I think it might be best to first improve the article on ancient Muziris (correct mistakes and discrepancies, provide more references, and makes some decision about the questionable image), and then transfer it into a sedction on the history of Pattanam (with appropriate intenal links, of course). What do you two think of such a proposal?

I will be happy to try to help with this process later in the month after I get settled at home and have a decent broadband link and access to my books and papers. Please remind me if you don't hear from me for a while - I am getting quite forgetful as I age. :)

All best wishes to you both and thank you for bringing these issues to my attention. I do think it is important to have a really accurate and consistent article on this key article. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 10:50, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi John Hill,

About the image: Roman_Tamil_Inscription_Muziris_BC_345. Found on a tomb excavated in the Muziris Project. I have started following this up. The Director of the Muziris Project is not aware of this discovery. However this is now under further investigaion.

About the two articles Muziris and Pattanam:, On second thoughts I feel that it is too early to combine these two articles. It is not yet officially declared that Pattanam is definitely the ancient port of Muziris. Till that takes place, let us consider these two as two separate places.

I have started editing these two articles. But it will take some time because I need concrete proof for what I write. Your suggestions and corrections will be much appreciated. Let us join together and move forward.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:13, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your immediate comments. Let's make it "the best". Rameez pp (talk) 11:54, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I look forward to contributing - but will have to wait until after I return home on the 15th before I can do much. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 00:59, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Could Rhapta have been in modern-day Mozambique?

John Hill - I am copying this into your personal Talk-File because it does not look as if people visit the Periplus ... Talk-File all that often. Regards, David McNaughton; E-mail: DLMcN@yahoo.com

---

Could Rhapta have been in modern-day Mozambique?

Does anyone have access to a copy of the "Periplus"? - either in the original Greek or in translation?

Carl Peters implies that it states that Rhapta lay, not at the mouth of its river, but some distance upstream, adding that this requirement would fit Quelimane quite well. But is he quoting the "Periplus" correctly?

Incidentally, remembering the successful Phoenician circumnavigation of Africa in 600 BC, it is by no means impossible that subsequent travellers would have ventured as far as the mouth of the Zambesi (or even beyond) - at the time when the "Periplus" was being compiled. I used to work in the Zimbabwean Meteorological Office, and can confirm that alternations in the coastal wind pattern did facilitate two-way journeys there.

---

--DLMcN (talk) 18:03, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Reply

Dear David: Please note (See my "Reply to Questions re Muziris" above) that I am travelling at the moment and having trouble getting decent internet access, and won't be able to access my books and notes until after I return home later this month. I have three different English translations of the Periplus at home - of which, perhaps the most trustworthy one is that by Lionel Casson (based on an ealier one) which contains detailed notes as well as the Greek original. I will compare the accounts of Raphta after I get home and report back.

That said, perhaps you could start by checking out William H. Schoff's translation which has been digitalised and is online at: [2].

I think your supposition that other travellers, after the original Phoenician circumnavigation of Africa c. 600 BCE, probably sailed down the east coast of Africa is almost beyond question. There is evidence for this in both Western Classical and Chinese literature. I can give you more details on this if you wish, after I return home. Please remind me, though for, as I mentioned above, I am getting very forgetful (and also I will be very busy and distracted after I return). All best wishes, John Hill (talk) 11:11, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks, John, for your helpful reply.

My interest stems from my involvement in the controversy surrounding Ancient Zimbabwe (and its principal monument Great Zimbabwe) ... i.e., I am wondering if knowledge of the gold riches there, might actually date back a couple of thousand years. The earliest known reference to gold deposits in that (approximate) area is, I think, by Cosmas Indicopleustes of Alexandria in the sixth century AD--DLMcN (talk) 18:40, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

From your message in my Talk-File -

"If there was any gold being shipped from there it was probably going to Muza in southwestern Arabia (and they could well have not have wanted the Romans to know this and kept the knowledge hidden. However, this is pure speculation on my part. I am sorry not to be able to supply you with anything more definite. If you do manage to turn something up, please do let me know... All best wishes, John Hill (talk) 01:20, 4 July 2011 (UTC)"

Thanks John ... Indeed, as I state in my essay at http://www.dlmcn.com/anczimb.html - M. Horton alludes to a deliberate policy of keeping secret that southeast African gold-source, citing the Yemeni writer Al-Hamdani of 942 AD; see 'The Swahili corridor' in Scientific American 257 (September 1987), pp. 76-84. It is by no means impossible that early explorers always made a point of testing the effluent at the mouths of rivers, to see whether they contained gold. Had they done that, the Zambesi and Sabi (= "Save") rivers would both have given positive indications.--DLMcN (talk) 05:50, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Zesan 澤散/ Azania

Hi again! Thanks for your interesting article which I have downloaded and will read more carefully as soon as I can find time. Please see the draft notes for my translation of the 3rd century Chinese historical text, the Weilüe, Section 15, and the linked footnotes 15.1 and 15.2, for some of what I have been able to deduce about 澤 散 'Zesan' = Azania. This draft version (I intend to publish the whole as a book later) is available on the Silk Road Seattle website at: [[3]]. However, I am in the process of revising all these notes - so please don't quote me without checking first. Hope it is of some interest. Best wishes, John Hill (talk) 06:27, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Tibetan naming conventions

A while back, I posted a new proposal for Tibetan naming conventions, i.e. conventions that can be used to determine the most appropriate titles for articles related to the Tibetan region. This came out of discussions about article titles on Talk:Qamdo and Talk:Lhoka (Shannan) Prefecture. I hope that discussions on the proposal's talk page will lead to consensus in favour of making these conventions official, but so far only a few editors have left comments. If you would be interested in taking a look at the proposed naming conventions and giving your opinion, I would definitely appreciate it. Thanks—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 20:54, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

your anti-india rantings

sorry my western friend but your knowledge is really low when it comes to ancient india.First the topic, the estimated population of 50-60 million of mauryan empire is the minimum estimate and its higher estimate is over 100million people which i will add soon, and second thing world population in 200BC is assumed to be 150million whereas mauryan empire was at peak in 260-250BC and has population around 60million which easily means over 1/3rd population and second thing if you want to contradict this statement then i will delete the claim on archaemenid empire page which states that its population of 50million out of 110million in 480BC means 45% of world population. So plz use your brain and not go with your crook western world mentality as you know how indians routed greeks from india,pakistan,afghan,iran.ROONEYGIBBS6 (talk) 04:51, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Please calm down, Rooney

I don't usually repond to personal attacks - but I think I should clarify some issues here about the population estimates that ROONEYGIBBS6 is making above. First, almost all the figures (except the 57-58 million figures from the Chinese census of 2 CE) are not facts, they are simply estimates or "assumptions", nothing more. Moreover, these estimates (or, preferably, "guesstimates") have been made by different people at different times and cannot be relied on for accuracy. What we need to know is what these estimates are based on.

I don't believe it is possible to make an accurate estimate of the population of the Mauryan empire at its height, much less estimate the total population of the world at that time. If your figures are to be believed, and there were only 150 million people in the whole world c. 250 BCE and the Mauryan Empire had about 60 million, and assuming the Chinese Empire had roughly the same number, that only leaves 30 million people in all of the rest of Asia (Japan, Sri Lanka, SE Asia, Korea, etc.), the Middle East, Persia, Europe, Africa, and the Americas, etc. Do you really feel this is credible? Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 06:22, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

He's been blocked as a sock. Dougweller (talk) 16:35, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism

No, you didn't do any. I just noticed that you manually warned Gamesjoseph46 about it. In the future, you can use templates to do this: for example, a first offender like this would recieve {{uw-vandalism1}}. I reccomend you install Twinkle. It makes just about everything easier. Quinxorin (talk) 06:17, 10 July 2011 (UTC) Quinxorin (talk) 06:17, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Animal sleep

Hi there, I noticed you used

Holland, Jennifer S. (2011). "40 Winks?". National Geographic. 220 (1). {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

as a reference on a lot of pages. However, in some cases (Little brown bat) you've simply copy pasted directly from the article and in other cases (Chimpanzee) the information you added is not in the reference. Please consider using references otherwise. --Fama Clamosa (talk) 10:36, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi! I am sorry, but we seem to have a disagreement here. First, in the case of the article on chimpanzees I made a brief reference to Holland's article and then I inserted two short quotes from her article which were clearly marked as quotes, as I thought she had made two particular points very well - better, in fact, than I could paraphrase them. I don't see this as "copy-pasting". In fact, the Wikipedia makes it quite clear that short quotes of copyrighted material ARE allowable: "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. Copyrighted text must be attributed and clearly marked as a quote. Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited even if correctly cited." Please see: [4]. However, as it seems to you to be copy pasted, and as I have maybe quoted too much copyrighted material (how much is too much?), I will reinsert only one of the short quotes.

As to your second claim that the information I inserted into the article on chimpanzees is not in her article - this is clearly wrong. It is indeed in her article - have another look. In fact, you have only reformated the reference, leaving the information I inserted intact, exactly as I gave it. Please check carefully before accusing others of doing the wrong thing. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 11:39, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I understand your points, and I actually regret reverting you. But...

1. Short quotes are appropriate in many contexts and me reverting you here was perhaps exaggerated; your contributions were clearly not blatant copyvios. However, personally I use quotes just like you do regularly, but together with a larger part of of my own prose. A good rule here is perhaps "write more than you copy", and to me that's the lower limit.
2. In the cite above there is a link to the online version of the article you used as a reference. On that page "chimpanzees" arn't even mentioned. What I did was (I) reformat the ref and (II) add a {{not in citation}} template.

--Fama Clamosa (talk) 12:35, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. There's not much point in quotes without context and an explanation of who said them, etc. It's best only to use them when they can express something better than normal encyclopaedic prose. —innotata 13:56, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Reply to Fama Clamosa and Innotata

I have taken on board, as a general rule, your comments about the length of quotes compared to other text and appreciate your thoughtful replies, but:

1. Changing a reference to some online version without careful checking is just not an option as is clear in this case where the on-line version has been greatly abbreviated. Now, I will have to go back to the articles and reverse the changes you have made to the references. I originally made them to the magazine article, and not the on-line version.
2. I do wonder if the problem with the length of quotes should have anything to do with how much other text is written, or whether it is really just a matter of how much copyrighted text may be quoted without infringing the law? It seems to me we have a very grey area here - one open to personal interpretation as it is very difficult to quantify exactly how much can be quoted.
3. In future, if you have some questions about work that I have done, would you please just drop me a short email first so we can work out an amicable solution? Thanks, John Hill (talk) 22:54, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Makes sense what you say about references, if it's so. But quotes like that you added at chipmunk are of no use without some encyclopedic prose discussing the topic. And actually, quoting copyrighted works is not about how much; it's about the nature of the usage. Does a quote add something to the work it's included in? is the question to ask. (See here.) And here the work is an encyclopedia. —innotata 15:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

You beat me to it!

Bugger, you beat me to it - heh, there are loads of these around Sydney at the moment. Say, I'd be very interested in flora photos you take around Cooktown. My main interest is Banksias and there are some Banksia robur up thataway...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:21, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi there - never mind, never mind - it's good to meet you! I only take snapshots these day, and am a total dilletante in botany, but will try to oblige. Most of my local flower photo are from our home and include things like Cooktown orchids, various lillies, and the like - no banksias yet - but that is just laziness. Will se if I can get a photo of Banksia robur for you. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 09:31, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I will find out where they are up near you and let you know. Also, any snaps of anything in flower or any animal is great - you're so far off the beaten track that there's bugger all photos from up your way. The main aussie photographers are from Vic and Tassie...Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:08, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, Cooktown Botanic Gardens looks interesting. Any photos of Banksia dentata, Banksia aquilonia and/or Banksia robur would be great to get, especially of flowerheads in bud, fully open and also the old flower spikes with follicles on them. Dentata and robur I am also interested in the trunk, especially the trunk base in the case of the latter species, and I will try to ring the Bot GArdens to see if they are the local population of robur - actually anything in flower would be great to add to the 'pedia really :) - there is a population of Banksia robur just north of Cooktown but I haven't a record of where it is as yet....will keep you posted :) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:09, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

PS: Banksias are often in flower in autumn/winter...Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:09, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi again! Good to hear from you. I was just thinking maybe you should write to our friend Sandra LLoyd,who is the passionate Curator of the Cooktown Botanic Gardens - she would probably be of more help than I could be. She is a botanist and an excellent photographer and I am sure she would be happy to help you. Here is her email address; sandylloyd@activ8.net.au or at work at: botanic.gardens@cook.qld.gov.au. Do write to her and feel free to say I suggested you contact her. Best of luck with it all. John Hill (talk) 21:53, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

PS: Been talking with Sandra - nice lady and very helpful :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:50, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Greetings

How is my great friend John? Sorry I'd forgotten about you the last month or two!! Where are you and what is up? On another trip?♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:30, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Good to hear from you again! I have been noticing your amazing contributions to WP on such an immense range of arcane subjects - you have been producing so many great and needed articles, I have been filled with awe and admiration! I myself have only been doing minimal WP work since I returned from my trip - mostly because I am working as hard as I can to revise and update my book, Through the Jade Gate to Rome, which is due to be republished in Singapore and I have set myself a deadline to get it all off to them by the end of this month if possible. Then they want to publish my next two books as well - so I have a lot on my plate. Also, I am really finding it hard to do more than a few hours a day - the old back is gradually getting worse and I am bedridden much of the time. At least it is not a fatal condition! It has cheered me up no end to hear from you. I send you warmest greetings from sunny Queensland and hope you are having fun and adventures and are truly happy. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 10:49, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Great to hear from you John, thankd for your kind words. Sorry to hear about your back. Maybe get a laptop and edit in bed!! I know I've done that although it is difficult to edit on a laptop and gives you a neckache after a while anyway!! I jsut remembered I was asked to create all of the Ganden Tripas. I've just started a few like Chökyi Gyeltshen. If you have further info on any of them feel free to add to them. That Tibetan resource centre is great. Spotted some missing writers and such too.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:00, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi again. Yes, that is how I have been working for the past couple of years - with a laptop in bed. I just can't sit for long at a desk anymore. Will try to add to the Ganden Tripas when I can find time and if I can ferret some useful info out of my collection of books on Tibetan subjects. All best wishes, John.

Reply to User Innotata

Hi again. I am not sure why you feel that the information I added to the article on chipmunks about their long sleep period (about 15 hours per day) and the quote: "Those mammals that nap in hiding, like bats or rodents, tend to have longer, deeper snoozes than those on constant alert", do not add something to an encyclopedia article such as Wikipedia's. I would disagree with you - it seems to me both interesting and informative - but I guess we can agree to disagree on this. In any case, I have reordered the text so that the addition I have made is more in context. You will notice that it now immediately follows a paragraph discussing how chipmunks are important prey for various mammals and birds as well as well as themselves preying on birds' eggs and nestlings. I do think the whole reads better now - so I thank you for bringing it to my attention once again. Best wishes, John Hill (talk) 23:53, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The quote is still not in encyclopedic style. This doesn't constitute any proper explanation of the subject, and you most likely also need to say who was saying the quote, and assess if this is really needed: is it important aspect, or an important perspective? Doesn't look like it. —innotata 01:25, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately, it looks like we are going to keep on disagreeing. I am not sure what you mean by "encyclopedic style" when referring to two short sentences in an encyclopdeia entry. And I do think it is an interesting and important point to be made in an article on chipmunks - it helps one to understand a fair bit about their behaviour and lifestyle that would be missed out in the article if it was not there - but you obviously don't agree with me on this point. As to who was responsible for the quote, I think this is quite clear as it stands - it is quoted from the article itself and I give the author, the name of the article, and the journal in the reference (unfortunately, no page number is given in the original magazine). So, I am leaving it as is. If you still think it should be removed, please seek advice with other editors or WP administrators first. I am happy to take impartial advice and want to avoid an edit war or any other waste of time. I am sure you have better things to do with your time - I certainly do. Yours, John Hill (talk) 06:15, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Look, I don't know why I'm going on about encyclopedic style: this doesn't look like any style to me. When you make a quote in a text, it should be explained a bit, probably included in a sentence. That bit of the article is a bunch of badly written and connected bits and makes little sense; this quote seems rather unnecessary since the point could easily be made without quoting, and as a journalistic piece the article quoted does not represent an important perspective or something of depth. As Fama Clamosa pointed out, this and many quotes are likely copyright violations as they stand, so this shouldn't be ignored. Can you please either add a proper discussion any topics you add quotes from, or let them be removed? —innotata 14:45, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

As it seems we are not able to agree I have written an email to amember of the WP Mediation Cabal asking for their honest opinion. I will be guided by their advice. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 22:25, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

OK. I don't think that's needed, and if you want to ask somewhere that probably isn't where, but if that's what you like I'll see what reply you get. —innotata 01:31, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Have you heard anything? I really don't think that's the way to ask for this sort of third party comment, looking at the page; would you mind if I asked at a relevant project discussion page? —innotata 22:13, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

No, I haven't heard anything back. I would be pleased if you could get some more discussion about all this. I am sorry I can't do much following up at the moment - my 97 year old mother has just been put in hospital and I am very busy. But, I would be grateful if you would let me know what comes out of the discussions, and I am quite willing to abide with third party consensus. Perhaps someone else could rewrite the info so it is more palatable? Whatever. . . . John Hill (talk) 22:19, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for bugging you about this issue now then. Would you mind if I just rewrote the articles, reducing or removing the quotations but keeping the information? —innotata 19:25, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Never mind, I'll just ask. One of my problems was that I couldn't find anywhere really appropriate to ask, given that this concerns both copyright and style. I'll post at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content. —innotata 19:28, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that - I will be most interested to hear what they say. John Hill (talk) 21:42, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Here's the thread: Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 52/Archives/ 40#Acceptable quoting. It's been archived now, and only two people commented, but both agreed with me. —innotata 21:31, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I accept the verdict and will try to tidy everything up - i.e. paraphrase the information. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 22:36, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

View_of_Kashgar_1868

Hello John Hill,

This may seem to be a bit usual but I am interested the the etching/print titled View_of_Kasgar_1868. I am a book jacket designer working for Bloomsbury Publishers in NY and am designing a cover for a novel that takes place in Kashgar right around that time period. It has been nearly impossible for me to find representations of Kashgar that might work. But this print seems ideal, for my purposes I would need a high resolution file (300dpi @ 7 wide) and the one you have uploaded is too small. I need to find either the original print or the book/publisher of the print. can you help me out with this?98.14.229.130 (talk) 23:54, 14 September 2011 (UTC)pratchford

Hi! I scanned this lovely illustration from a 1984 reprint by Oxford University Press (ISBN: 0 19 583830 0) of the book Visits to High Tartary, Yârkand, and Kâshghar (Formerly Chinese Tartary): And Return Journey over the Karakoram Pass by Robert Shaw which was first published by John Murray, London in 1871. It was opposite page 365 and is not a bad reproduction.

As it has been long out of copyright and still is of interest, the book has been republished numerous times but I assume that the illustrations have lost detail in the copying process. If you are in a place with good libraries you may be able to find an original copy to see if the original illustration would be of sufficient quality for your purposes. Failing that, all I can really suggest is to check copies of the various reprints to see which has the best reproduction. You can find several reprints on Amazon.com and one you can even check some of the pages on line. They also have a couple of copies of the original edition available but they are horribly expensive. One other possibility which just occurred to me would be to contact the bookstores selling the original edition and offer to pay them to make a good copy of the illustration. Good luck with it. Do let me know how you go with it. Cheers John Hill (talk) 00:18, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Thomas Edward Gordon's: Roof of the World (1876) may not be a bad source of images either... Gordon was a decent painter, and has some nice illustrations in the book. See also into commons:Category:Yarkand - Yarkand was a major center of Yaqub Beg's state, as I understand, maybe more important than Kashgar City proper. Some images of the period may also be reprinted in Kim Ho-dong's Holy War in China: The Muslim Rebellion and State in Chinese Central Asia, 1864-1877 (2004). His book has a comprehensive bibliography, so if his book has pictures (I don't remember), he was in a good position to choose interesting ones. -- Vmenkov (talk) 01:34, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your excellent suggestions. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 22:45, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Your edits are under discussion

This is a courtesy notice that I have brought certain of your edits under discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#User:John Hill. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:44, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this matter to my attention. I have replied on your Talk page as well as at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#User:John Hill. Please let me know if you have any further concerns. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 22:43, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The Qiang people = The Tibetans!

I wrote about it before: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Talk:History_of_Tibet/Archive_2#The_History_of_the_Qiang_people

I'll look at the sources now... & I'll write the page-numbers... Böri (talk) 15:30, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

The relationship between the Qiang and the Tibetans

Dear Böri: Thank you for leaving the note on my page about the Qiang. Questions about the relationship between some of the Qiang tribes and modern Tibetans keep being raised. There is certainly an ethnic relationship between the Qiang and the Tibetans, but modern Tibetans are descended from a mixture of many tribes, so it is not accurate to say that Tibetans were originally Qiang. One can only say that many Tibetans are probably partly descended from various Qiang tribes and there were about 150 different Qiang tribes known during the Han dynasty who may well have varied considerably in their ethnic makeup from each other. I referred to this very briefly in my 2009 book, Through the Jade Gate to Rome on page 141:

"The Qiang are often referred to as ‘Tibetans,’ which is misleading. Qiang appear in the literature many centuries before a ‘Tibetan’ state had emerged and, while many Tibetans are indeed descended from Qiang tribes, they were only one of many peoples who contributed to the genetic and cultural inheritance of modern Tibetans".

I hope this is of some help to you.

Best wishes, John Hill (talk) 21:42, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply... but you are also saying: "There is certainly an ethnic relationship between the Qiang and the Tibetans" & "...while many Tibetans are indeed descended from Qiang tribes"

There is nothing about the Qiang tribes in the History of Tibet (- Wiki) article! Can't we say that they were Proto-Tibetans? My sources (Eberhard, Gumilev, the footnotes of The Book of Han, etc.) say: The Qiang people were the Tibetans. And they say: the Qiang people were the allies of the Xiongnu people.

& in that article there is nothing about Tibet-Burma, Tibet-Bhutan connections... Where did the Tibeto-Burman languages come from then?

& no mention of Former Qin (351-394), Later Qin (384-417) (Can't we say that they were Qiang-Chinese states?); Later Liang (386-403)(Di-Chinese state), Western Xia (Xi Xia / Tangut), Tuyuhun Kingdom (Xianbei + Tibetan state) Weren't they the Tibetans? -Here I'm talking about "the Greater Tibet" (Tibet and parts of Sichuan, Qinghai, Gansu, Yunnan) Who were living in these lands during the Qin Dynasty?

& I want to learn your opinions about the Quanrong people and Di (ethnic group)... (Weren't they the Proto-Tibetans?)

Tibet : Is it a Turkic name? "Tüpüt" (Old Turkic) = Tibet, "töpü"(Old Turkic) = hill, "tepe" (Turkish) = hill ; so Tüpüt = "the land of mountains"?

Wiki says: "Tibet" names in European languages are loanwords from Arabic طيبة، توبات (Ṭībat or Tūbātt), itself deriving from Turkic Töbäd "The Heights" (plural of töbän) / Is it true?

& I want to say the History of Tibet did NOT begin in the 7th century! Regards, Böri (talk) 13:55, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

...................................

Dear Böri: Thank you for your comments. Sorry I have taken a while to reply but I have not been well.

Now, about the Qiang - yes, of course, there should be something about them in the history of Tibet article but I cannot agree with calling them "Proto-Tibetans'. Using this term would imply that they were the main ancestors of modern Tibetans. Tibet first came together as a state when Songtsen Gampo united a number of tribes around the Yarlung Valley and the region of modern Lhasa - and there is no evidence that I know of to show that they were at all related to the numerous Qiang tribes who stretched across the Changthang plains to the far north and the region around Koko Nur in the east and stretching well into what we may call (for want of a better term) "Greater China." Some of these tribes became absorbed into the Tibetan world, some into the Chinese, but there are (according to the Wiki article) still about 200,000 people mainly in Sichuan Province who identify themselves as Qiang and speak Qiang languages. The Quanrong were, apparently, a branch of the Qiang.

Calling the Qiang people "proto-Tibetans" would be a bit like calling Maltese people "proto-Australians." There are, according to things I have read, more people of Maltese descent in Australia than in Malta. In a sense, any group that adds to the gene pool of a people might be considered "proto-" members of that group, but the term is usually reserved for the main group involved. One doesn't think of the French or the Vikings or the Italians as "proto-English" although they all contributed to the modern gene-pool in England (which modern DNA studies seem to reveal is mostly Celtic). In this sense one might be able to legitimately refer to the Celtic/Gaulish tribes as proto-English, prot.-Irish, proto-Scots, proto-Welsh, proto-Bretons, and so on.

The situation regarding the Di people is somewhat similar to that of the Qiang, although fewer people have survived as a separate entity into modern times than with the Qiang. They seem, with the possible exception of the Boma ('White Horse') Di, to have been assimilated into the Tibetan and Chinese populations.

About the name of Tibet - most scholars I know think it is derived from "Böd" which is, apparently, what the first Tibetans called themselves - and that name may well be closely related to Bön - the early Tibetan religion. I doubt very much that it was originally from a Turkic language. If, indeed, the western name 'Tibet' came through Turkic languages via Arabic - one might ask whether the Turkic name was not an attempt to transcribe whatever name the Tibetans used for themselves (i.e. probably Böd - of some variant of it).

The "history" of a place or people is usually taken to mean the story of the people or place since written records began. And this definition would place the beginning of Tibetan history in the 7th century. However, you are quite right if what you mean is that to say the "Tibetans" did not just appear out of nowhere in 7th century - we all have lineages going back at least 100,000 years as "modern" humans, and just recently through DNA studies and careful archaeological work we are beginning to unravel some of the outlines of this unwritten "history." For example, one can say that the Aboriginal people of Australia technically have a history which only stretches backk a couple of hundred years to settlement of the continent by Europeans, who brought writing. However, their "oral histories" have been shown to contain information stretching back thousands of years and their artwork and other archaeological remain, plus information gleaned from DNA, etc., has taken this "history" back to 70 to 100,000 years ago - if not longer.

Again, about the Qiang - I don't read the Chinese sources to say that the Qiang were the Tibetans - they are mostly dealt with separately. And it should not be claimed that the Qiang were not the allies of the Xiongnu - some tribes were at certain times - some tribes were also allies of the Chinese at certain times - and some tribes supported neither. Hope this is of some help. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 23:50, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you!

It's nice to talk to you about the History of Tibet. This site tells more about the Qiang people: http://www.imperialchina.org/Tibetan.html Böri (talk) 10:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Image Alignment Issue

Hi John, I kindly request you to please align the following image that you've uploaded in the article titled Shani

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:Shani_Deva_statue_on_road_Dharamsahla_to_Chandigarh.jpg

Thank you for your valuable contributions. Indpros (talk) 08:04, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

And thanks to you for pointing this out to me. I have requested that it be rotated and they reckon an automated service should do this within a day or two. Cheers and best wishes, John Hill (talk) 04:47, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

New entry

Hi John, Would you please look at Internet Water Army? It came together easily and I keep finding more references. Any help would be appreciated. Cheers, Keahapana (talk) 03:29, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the article to me. It is interesting and well written. Unfortunately, I have nothing I can add to it at the moment. I have heard of this sort of misuse of the internet by various sources including the Chinese government - but I have no real knowledge of anything of the sort other than the well-known censorship problems. All best wishes for the holiday season and throughout the new year. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 04:53, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Yes, all best wishes to you too. Cheers, Keahapana (talk) 02:01, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

File permission problem with File:Greenhall Crawford 1956.jpg

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Hi

Hi! Hw are you? :-)-Ravi_{My Tea Kadai} 16:32, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

RFC

About your recent RFC, where did you get the "numerous accusations of serious political interference and censorship on both sides of this debate" from? The discussion on the main article's talk page seemed to be civil, and people who disagreed on the dedicated controversies article seemed to uniformly agree about the necessity of a merger. Shrigley (talk) 23:04, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

What I was referring to was all about comments made on the main pages and talk pages of both articles. I do not wish to enter any of the many controversies about the Confucius Institutes - I will leave that to those who obviously know far more than I do about it all. But, when people make accusations of spying, corruption, unduly influencing academic institutions, and the like, whether in a civil manner or not - I think it is time to ask for "neutral" informed people to examine the whole matter (including the few comments I have made) and try to decide what is "fair and balanced comment" and how best to handle these persistent controversies. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 01:28, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Sima Xin

Hi, this is regarding the recent edits you made on Sima Xin (see here). I don't quite understand the following line you added:

Hanshu says that, after his death, the King of Han had Xiang Yu's head suspended on a pole in the market-place of Yueyang, his previous capital, because he had traitorously gone over to Xiang Yu after surrendering to Gaozu in Sept. 206.

Who traitorously gone over to Xiang Yu after surrendering to Gaozu in September 206? Please help to clarify. Thanks. Lonelydarksky (暗無天日) _{contact me (聯絡)} 13:53, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks so much for spotting this mistake and reporting it to me. I am very pleased you discovered it. I have just rechecked Dubs and corrected the entry so that it now reads:

Hanshu says that, after his death, the King of Han had Xima Xin's head suspended on a pole in the market-place of Yueyang, his previous capital, because he had traitorously gone over to Xiang Yu after surrendering to Gaozu in Sept. 206.

I hope that this answers your question. Thanks again, Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 22:19, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying. I've made some fixes. Lonelydarksky (暗無天日) _{contact me (聯絡)} 02:22, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Good work - it reads better now. Thanks, John Hill (talk) 03:56, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi

Hi! Hope you find these interesting - South-East Asia campaign of Rajendra Chola I, 7aum Arivu and Tamil bell.-Ravi_{My Tea Kadai} 18:11, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I had a glance at the article and it does seem interesting. Thanks for that! Well, I have a book titled "History of the Tamils from the earliest times upto 600 AD" by P. T. Srinivasa Iyengar in Chennai (I, now, reside in Bangalore). I'll try to get it next week. Meanwhile, there is a soft copy on Google Books. Check out [5]. However, the books is old and was published in 1928. I do not know any new publications on the subject though I'll give a try.-Ravi_{My Tea Kadai} 15:59, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Check out Chapter 3: Foreign Trade in Early Times, Chapter VII and Chapter X from the book-Ravi_{My Tea Kadai} 16:05, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Incomplete DYK nomination

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DYK for White Horse Pagoda, Dunhuang

The DYK project (nominate) 00:22, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

File permission problem with File:Frederick St. & Marine Square 1890s.jpg

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File permission problem with File:Port of Spain Harbour 1890s.jpg

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Reply re file permissions

Dear Editors: Just a quick note to let you know that I am unable at the moment to follow up on these images of Trinidad from the 1890s. I remember both illustrations used to be in schoolbooks I used as a child in Port-of-Spain in the 1950s. As far as I remember I copied them from one of the old books I have on Trinidad from my father's collection which are now all packed in boxes. I am not sure now whether these books are out of copyright or not but they obviously were copied from earlier sources - the images would have been taken from very early reproductions and probably were not under copyright when they were copied. Unfortunately I am not well - mostly bedridden and unable to start unpacking boxes to check them out. So, please do whatever is the right thing to do under WP guidelines - but maybe you could keep them on hand in case I am able to find the book they are in later and, if all is OK, we could activate them again? It seems a shame to remove them from the Wp as they really are of interest. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 03:54, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Xainza County

The DYK project (nominate) 08:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your edits, you also deserve credit!♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:47, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Aw poor you, sounds painful. Yeah it would drive me crackers being in bed all the time! Thanks for your article on the reserve! Sometime I'm planning on creating a lot of articles on missing lakes of which Tibet has zillions of!♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:12, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Hey Amdo County. Pagnag seems unlikely. Google maps shows a town called Amdo. Is this the same one? Should I move Pagnag to Amdo Town? IU'm confident it is Amdo Town. Can you add to Amdo Town? Also do you have anything on Cona Lake? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:27, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

HI John, who are you feeling? Can you add to Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche? I spotted in in the new pages.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:12, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Meetup in North Queensland

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File permission problem with File:Rakaposhi 2.jpg

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Reply

Dear Sir or Madam:

I uploaded the photo File:Rakaposhi 2.jpg back in 2005 after getting permission from the photographer, Dr. Volker Thewalt. A copy of his email to me giving permission to use his photo is on the Talk page for this photo (see http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File_talk:Rakaposhi_2.jpg ).

I don't understand what the problem is or why it has come up after so many years. Anyway, he certainly gave his permission as you can easily see. If you feel it is important you may still be able to contact him at: volker@thewalt.de - but I can't see why you would need to - he was very explicit in his letter that he was happy about it being used.

Yours sincerely,

John Hill

Viking Ship Photo off coast of Newfoundland

Hello John. I saw the Viking ship photo that you uploaded and was interested in knowing more about the recreation of the Viking landing at L'Anse aux Meadows in the year 2000. Mentions taken by Joyce Hill, who appears to be your sister? Kind regards,

216.251.112.134 (talk) 14:10, 14 June 2012 (UTC) Sean Shannon Toronto, Ontario

Reply Dear Sean: Yes, indeed, my sister took the photo. If you would like to know more about it do send me any questions to: wynhill2@bigpond.net.au and I will forward them on to my sister. I have been to L'Anse aux Meadows but some years before the landing. Cheers and best wishes, John Hill (talk) 03:04, 15 June 2012 (UTC)