User talk:Jack O'Lantern/Archive5

Eric Goldberg (see Felix Nussbaum entry)

It seems you may have naively removed the fact that Eric Goldberg was a Jewish-Canadian artist. This detail is vital to his biography. He was an important member of Montreal's then Jewish school of artists. It would be odd and somewhat counter-intellectual to negate important details like these.

Fanning

Yes, well, you'll find that many southerners are not that simple in ancestry, lol. Michael 05:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, well, if the IMDB said it, it must be true. We should tag her as a multiracial actor because of that (joking). They also allege that she is Scandinavian. Sure... Michael 06:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I doubt you'll find any German Crabtrees. He might be 3/4 Irish and 1/4 German. That could also be seen as significant. He certainly wouldn't strictly classify himself as Irish then...Michael 06:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, did anyone ever put that on Wikipedia? They often copy us. Sometimes, though, they just like to type up whatever on earth they want. "Oh, she looks like she could be part Irish, Greek, and German...Hmmm...Let's throw in a little Seminole to make her seem more exotic..."

The German is probably Walker's maternal grandmother. Michael 06:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, a conversation on what she looks...That sounds reliable...Ha! Michael 06:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, and what is most fishy about IMDB is the fact that you cannot read the forums unless you are signed in, so innocent bystanders would never know what actually goes on. Michael 06:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Is it fixed? Michael 06:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the resemblance is uncanny. Now, someone will probably begin saying it's his twin, and, for that reason, he must be from Germany. Michael 06:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no doubt Padalecki is Polish...His mother's maiden name definitely sounds German. And, thanks-I added the archive tag. It took me about five minutes, as the little box kept coming up, saying something had performed an illegal operation, thus requiring me to get back on the Internet, log back in, etc. Michael 06:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, I highly doubt that there have ever been a tremendous amount of Padaleckis in Texas. And yes, the mother's name does sound Jewish, possibly even of Polish origin, for that matter. Michael 06:52, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully he will say something...Michael 07:13, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, I saw those things on Adams and Bronson. It's crazy. Ukrainian-Polish-Estonian-Every other Eastern European country...There are sources, right? Michael 07:24, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh I presumed you were part Irish based off your username... Michael 07:25, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

LOL, when I first read your username, I thought it was your name. It actually took me a little while to realize the play on words. So, did you end up with a Jewish surname? Some people I know used to think I was "Polish" and nothing more, I suppose since they were only one nationality...I would then have to give the whole list. Michael 07:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the name is a play on words...Making "jack-o'-lantern" into a name... Michael 07:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, well, the comic people obviously made the name a pun. Michael 07:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

That looks kind of...disgusting... Michael 07:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, well...You should be proud she shares some of your ancestry! Michael 07:50, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I actually just did one "Young", "He", "Young", "He" edit, and I'm about to try to integrate the trivia into the article. Thanks. Michael 08:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, hopefully...I first want to address the concerns expressed by the initial reviewer. Michael 08:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Created Endre Johannes Cleven - thx for your help!!

Coupla fixes and too many in-line comments but will tidy up tomorrow. Thanks for your help; and if anything in my bizarre range of expertises/insterests can be of interest (see User:Skookum1 let me know. "Yours in Wiki" Skookum1 09:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Your lack of sources

Maybe I should stalk your edits to make sure you add a source for every single edit you make, because they seem unsubstantiated to me. You know nothing about ethnicity or sociology. Stay in your arena and I will stay in mine, or I will revert any edit you make that doesn't provide a source. Go away! IP Address 20:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

JoJo's ancestries

Hi! I'd just like to know one thing: what's wrong with adding categories on JoJo's page which refer to her ancestries?
200.138.194.254 02:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh certainly, I understand. But when I say "ancestry" I don't actually mean her grandparents or something like that, I mean her descents, like "JoJo is of Polish descent", do you get it? For example, the category "Ecuadorian-Americans" is added on Christina Aguilera's page because she's of Ecuadorian descent. Shoudn't we do the same thing with JoJo?
200.138.194.254 21:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I get it now! Just because she has a grandfather who was born in France it doesn't mean she's a French-American, right? Well, I will look for sources that describe JoJo regarding her descents.
200.138.194.254 21:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

User Conduct RFC for IP Address?

Whaddya think? His or her behavior is *clearly* over the line. --ElKevbo 05:47, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Talk archive number

If anyone clicked your Archive 4 above which opened /Archive3 above, it was misleading. Use your proper link for talk archive number next time. -- ADNghiem501 06:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

That's an awful harsh statement for a simple typo... --ElKevbo 06:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I deserve it. I did it on purpose, I admit it! I just couldn't take the injustice anymore - Archive 3 getting so little exposure. It's my best archive yet! I just had to have as many links to it as possible on this page. BTW, it seems that guy has left, and I am a bit too lazy to report him for 3rr, soo.... Mad Jack 06:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Clarification

Wait, I'm not following. Also "however, this is not the case for the ones you made adjustments to on the actors page, nor should you remove any info cited to a reliable source because you disagree with the judgements that source made" I don't understand what that sentence is referring to. Most of the sources listed there don't look very reliable. So now anybody who's half Jewish is just automatically labelled as Jewish? Sounds a little unfair to the other half. 72.144.191.201 08:25, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Is this established law now? What if they person was half Jewish but didn't practice the religion? (as is the case often) Wouldn't this exclude all of them? Or are they automatically categorized as Jewish now? And there are many sources on the actors list that don't explicitly say "BLANK is jewish". Plus some of the sources are from gag fan sites (e.g. the stuff would be called "JEWS R US"). Its not exactly reliable like an official biography, lets say. I took your advice from the Czech list. My whole dilemma is who to explicitly call a Czech and who not. I think it's already cleared up though, because the only people who are called "Czechs" in their wikipedia pages are included, and I added "source requesters" for those that don't state any nationality (like a few rabbis). Anyway, can you give me a quick overview of who would and who would not count as Jewish according to this new guideline? 72.144.191.201 08:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, sorry to keep questioning, this is a little hard to get use to. Tell me if I'm understanding correctly. The painter Balthus (you might be familiar with his work. eh, maybe I'm just a fan) is Polish-French and supposedly his mother was Jewish. The best source for this is from a nice little biography which states "He elucidates Balthus's mother's long affair with the poet Rainer Maria Rilke; her Jewish ancestry, which Balthus denied" Since there are no sources which explicitly say "Balthus IS Jewish" and he didn't follow the religion. Does that mean he cannot be added to a Jewish list?

Secondly, the whole Elvis dilemma. You don't see the sillyness in concluding that Elvis as Jewish from that source which obviously is just a play on the Jewish law lineage. His great great maternal grandmother (could have been) Jewish says the source. So through Jewish law he would be Jewish. That's why the source says "Elvis is Jewish". But anybody can clearly see that he isn't REALLY Jewish besides some possible ethnic ancestry.

Oh, and lets not rely on sources so much as in the Sara Paxton article. Since when is Irish not European? 72.144.191.201 08:53, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we should put "Irish and other unknown European descent"? It's not a big deal. Plus the article said Paxton's mother didn't speak Spanish. Honestly, how many Mexicans don't know Spanish? I bet her mother was either an immigrant of the child of immigrants. It would help if we knew her surname, but thats just assuming stuff. I don't know what Elvis' religious practice was but I'm assuming that it wasn't Judaism. I still think there should be some note (perhaps a footnote) that mentions that this is only derived from his maternal great grandmother, but whatever. My whole dilemma is really on the reliability of sources. Some places just kinda throw out "XX is Jewish" without really identifying whether the person practiced or had an significant ethnic descent. The Elvis source is kinda a perfect example of what I mean. Are the sources on List of British Jews gonna get a huge renovation now? Lots of work. 72.144.191.201 09:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I noticed the source (the little number). Who could miss it? What I meant to ask was... in those footnotes, could information be put on Jewish ancestry (like in the case of Elvis)? Could I add in that according to that source it is only his great grandmother? You already answered that though, I guess. Still confirm if you can.

Ok, so it looks like the work that has to be done now is mainly on people who have only one Jewish parent (or like a Jewish grandfather w/e). The rule is still a little confusing (or maybe I'm just slow), but essentially we need a source stating the person is Jewish. If we don't have that source, then what can be done?

Like you said about Balthus, its good to take a person's self-identification into account, right?

• If a person follows Judaism, they are Jewish. Correct?
• If a person was born Jewish but CONVERTED, and never looked back on the religion, what are they counted as?

72.144.191.201 09:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It is relatively simple. That's really good. I feel I'm being very annoying, but I still have a few questions. So technically, in those footnotes, can the "Father was not Jewish" or "mother was not Jewish" information be placed for clarification? If no sources are present on a saids Judaism, can he be removed from a list?

And lastly (I promise this is the last question I ask for at least today), how do you feel about www.jinfo.org? It doesn't SAY anyone is jewish - rather it just focuses Judaism purely on the person having a Jewish parent. The site sometimes doesn't list its sources for assuming someone is Jewish, so can that personal webpage list of Jewish people be used as a source for wikipedia? I would say "no" but I want your opinion anyway.

Sometimes problems arise out of the site like in the case of Fritz Kreisler. No outside sources state he is explicitly Jewish (even here, a relative doesn't know: [1]) and he was a devout Catholic for much of his life (his wife, supposedly said to be anti-semitic, denied his Jewish ancestry fervently too). It gets difficult with some people. 72.144.191.201 09:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Yea Sorry I did assume Bynes father was the Jewish parent (mothers surname didn't match), but the rest of what I added was pretty much on target with what it said. I was pretty sure Eli's father wasn't Jewish but if you have a source then obviously I could be wrong. I won't add the footnotes if you don't want but I still feel they are good for clarifying when the person doesn't pratice Judaism. 72.144.191.201 09:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. For when you come back, please leave your answer on my talk page: Can www.jinfo.org be used as the only source to prove someone was Jewish if the site does not provide another source for assuming why the person was Jewish and if no other sources exist on the person's religious affliation? Because if so, it would be like taking a name from another wikipedia-like list. An infinite loop of no sources explicitly stating Judaism. 72.144.191.201 10:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you much for the clarification by the way. 72.144.191.201 10:10, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Brandon Routh section headings

Fair enough about the headings. I just thought that it was rather odd to have only two level-2 headings, one of which is "References"; I hadn't come across that before. — TKD::Talk 21:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. That's an an interesting way of doing it, although I tend to use "Notes" for the inline citations, "References" for the actual sources, and "External links" or "Further reading" for anything not directly used as a reference but germane nonetheless, and within the guidelines of WP:EL. See Red vs Blue for how this looks. Separating Notes from References is useful when different sections of the same thing have to be cited separately. — TKD::Talk 07:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Scarlett Johansson

Sorry, i've no idea what i did the first time - i just got in from work and it's the middle of the night here! Anyway, i've now edited it to how i think it should be, so if you've any problems... BTW her publicist has denied the Dallas rumours according to this: http://www.scarlett-fan.com/ (see 21st july update). Amo 02:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Film screenshots

Film screenshots may only be used to illustrate the movie, not solely to depict the actress in question. It's a subtle but very important difference. I removed the image from Scarlett Johansson. --Yamla 17:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, all uses of a copyrighted image require a detailed and hand-written fair-use justification. See the license text for more information. --Yamla 17:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

You said: "But wouldn't that mean 95% of all actor articles on Wikipedia would have no images? That sounds like an undesirable result"

Actually, Wikipedia policy is to have much fewer images than we currently have. Anyway, even if it produces an undesirable result, that doesn't trump Wikipedia's copyright and fair-use policies. --Yamla 17:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

You said: "Is this picture OK? [2] From the Russian Wikipedia. It says it's a promotional image (which I believe we can use)"

It's hard to tell, I cannot read Russian. Does it have its source identified? It looks like it may be an image from inside a magazine, in which case it may not be used at all. If it is a promotional image, it may be used to illustrate what it is promoting. For example, a promotional image for a movie may be used to illustrate that movie but not solely to depict the person. --Yamla 17:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Billy Zane

Care to come discuss your edits to the Billy Zane page on its talk page? Thanks ka1iban 04:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Paris Hilton

Well, actually, I went down my watchlist first, reverting vandalism and checking on edits that had been made in my absence, and then I added her. Michael 07:25, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Blancha is a weird name...It sounds as if it could be Jewish, or it just may be an oddity. Michael 07:31, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

He may have come from Poland but been of Russian origins...There were quite a few wars and distributions of territories, so the exact location may be in question due to the many changes in boundaries over the years. Michael 07:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to wonder how much Jewish the average person can actually be, in that case. As I told you before, my mother's paternal grandmother was Jewish and she had red hair and green eyes. It makes you wonder how many of the ancestors (certainly not all) were actually Jewish. Obviously, at some point in the past, it became quite diluted... Michael 07:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Northern Italians often do not have the characteristics of southern Italians, who tend to be of darker complexion. The assimilation I was referring to was in the fact that a Polish-Jew may not feel incredibly isolated from the Polish population. Oh, and isn't Michael Vartan something else? I don't know. I've seen too many different sources on him... Michael 08:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I once read that there are only about 4,000 Jews left in Poland-a result of the expulsion and the Holocaust. While the differences between Jews and Gentiles may be greater in Europe, they tend not to be as large in the U.S. Further, if you were to find a 3rd-generation Jewish-American and a 3rd-generation Italian-American, it would not be odd for them to have the same connection to their country of ancestral origin. While Jewish people form a distinct ethnic group, such does not exclude them from the one of the country of which they come from, particularly when their descendants may recognize it as their familial country of origin as an Italian-American may recognize Italy as his or her familial country of origin. Michael 08:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I only know one boy my age that is 100% Italian and one girl who is 75%...I would not doubt that people with partial heritage outnumber those with full. Aside from racial minorities, I honestly don't know if I could name five who fully of one nationality. Where I live in NJ, the most common nationalities are Italian, Polish, German, and Irish. Then, of course, there are others, but those four tend to be the most common. You'd probably be hard pressed to find a person of European descent who was not at least one of those in part. Michael 03:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Awesome sourcing

Hi Jack. You did fantastic sourcing on List of Czech Jews. One thing is you're using a few sources that state "Czech-born" and taking it for "Czech Jew". Czech-born means they were born in the territory of Bohemia or Moravia, while Czech Jew states they were Czech Jews. Someone might be born to missionaries in China, which would make them Chinese-born, but not Chinese. So I moved those people to the talk oage. Out of curiousity, where'd you find the information on Milos Forman? Anyway, awesome work. Oh and I didn't need a source that said Rabbi was Jewish, I needed one that said he was Czech. 72.144.147.65 20:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

That's pretty cool coincidence. "Forman" is both a Protestant and Jewish surname. So this Forman was Protestant but Forman isn't his biological father, right? So, wait, was he raised Jewish or Protestant? 72.144.147.65 21:04, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

If he's half Protestant and didn't practice Judaism, why's he exactly on the list? I don't know exactly how the rule applies to half and half people. Do we know for sure his biological father was even Czech? 72.144.147.65 21:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm still not following. I didn't know "half Jewish" could work for a person anymore. 72.144.147.65 21:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

It would work better if his mother was Jewish, because then via Jewish law he would be. It's odd but if its the rules then alright. 72.144.147.65 21:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

What's the policy on conflicting sources? If one source says a person is Jewish and another Catholic or one stating someone was "Czech" and another someone was "Austrian" as is the case of Viktor Ullmann: [3]. 72.144.147.65 22:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Yea, we already know he's Jewish (well he converted but unless you think we should mention that, its irrelevant), but a "German-Czech" doesn't really confirm that he's anything more than Czech-born. Besides, I think the source was referring to "German" in the ethnic senese rather than national. His nationality was Austrian and I guess you could see Austrians are really Germans in some sort of historical sense. 72.144.147.65 22:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow you're indentations on my talk page are making a nice upside-down pyramid. I don't really think the source for Viktor Ullmann is that weak except that it uses "German" in an ethnic sense, I rather replace it with the source I showed you since it says "Austrian".

What is kinda weak is the argument for Gellner. It says he was born in the Sudetenland, which we all know for History 101 became part of Germany soon afterwards because all its inhabitants were ethnic Germans. His quote "I was somehow instructed to consider myself Czech." kinda shows us in a sarcastic way that he didn't consider himself Czech and was forced to in order to "assimilate" to the fact that it was now Czechoslovakia and not Austrian Empire - if you get my drift. He's on List of Germans and List of German Jews so it's not the concern of moving him there, it's the fact that the source used the word "Czech" meaning more like "Czechoslovakian inhabitant" than a Czech Jew. Still, I'm not so apt to move him yet. 72.144.147.65 22:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I know thats the problem! The source is using Czech in the form of "born in Czechoslovakia." His quote gives away he was forcing a Czech identity onto himself, and his birthplace in the Sudetenland is basically like being born in Berlin back then. Maybe if we can find a source that says explicitly that he saw himself as a German, it could serve as a validation. 72.144.147.65 22:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I can relate. You probably know more about X-Americans being one yourself. Actually - now that I think about it - I'm only assuming you're American. I always forget English wikipedia is for Australians etc too ;) I use to do a lot of work on list of German Americans but this was before it got revitalized. Back then people would add anyone who had a German great grandpa to it. 72.144.147.65 22:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, there are too many lists, but they're not all that bad. I still dislike categories more. I'm surprised there aren't List of German Canadians or List of Ukrainian Canadians yet. Supposedly Canada is much more homogenous in its makeup than US - meaning like most of non-British Canadians were recent enough immigrants to not be so ancestrally mixed-up. 72.144.147.65 22:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Laurence Olivier

I see you've done a lot of actor...no, movie star GAs, and I was wondering if you might just give the Laurence Olivier article the once over, and give me a few ideas as to what I should improve. Thanks, ...._(Complain)^{(Let us to it pell-mell)} 02:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Have adressed your issues. In the next couple of days, I'm going to do a huge expansion drive, hopefully bringing the article closer in reach of FA status. Thanks, ...._(Complain)^{(Let us to it pell-mell)} 04:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Full ethnicity

Well, I think heritage can be a reason for people's obsessions with various people. In our society, you also have certain stereotypes by which some people desire to be with others of certain ethnic backgrounds because of physical appearance, the way in which society may look upon that ethnic group, or the stereotypes equated with that group. For example, when looking for a source for Ace Young's heritage inclusion, I came across numerous fan sites, in which contributors said things such as, "Oh, I'm part German and Irish, too. That's so hot!", "He has Irish eyes!", or "Oh, then that's why he's so gorgeous." Then again, you may look to Paris Hilton's German quote in which she says something to the effect of, "German guys are hot." To be honest, I think that if someone sees that a person is listed as a WASP, that takes something away from exotic appeal due to the fact that until the 20th century, you couldn't get anywhere without being a WASP, and in the political arena, basically all but two Presidents have been WASPS. Michael 05:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course...Certain areas have maintained distinct ethnic commonalities. New York City is a primary source. As I said, Little Italy (both there and also in areas like Hoboken, NJ) contribute to staying within one's ethnicity, usually because of culture and location. The same applies to Jewish people, though the more religious often feel obligated to marry on a basis of religion. Like the prominence of Italians in some areas, Boston and Chicago are well known for their Irish populations.User:Mike 7|Michael]] 05:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the Ace thing is kind of weird...His last name is Young (probably British), and I saw one site with a picture of an old man who was said to be Ace's grandfather (who had the surname of Whitney). Of course, that leaves Ace's paternal grandmother. Since his mother is a Mormon, I would doubt that she is at all German. Have you done an ancestry.com search on him? The non-WASP Presidents I meant were Eisenhower (originally Eisenhauer) and Hoover (originally Huber), since they were of German descent, which usually isn't as closely related to the typical WASP culture. Basically all but three Presidents have been part Scottish-I found that pretty weird. Where did you get the source on Meryl Streep? She's still cited as being Dutch on her father's side. Michael 05:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Paris Hilton is about 1/8 German, to my knowledge, because of her great-grandfather...Is the rest more WASP-oriented? Michael 05:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, then, I'm surprised she didn't also make a statement saying, "I am Norwegian." That's really a weird quote we have from her. "German guys are hot...I am German." I guess whatever was in the middle made it make more sense (hopefully). Michael 05:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd seriously wonder how they could even theorize about ancestry for 3000 years. I'd have difficulty lending that even an ounce of credibility. Michael 05:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

If you go back that far in Paris' case, she's probably 1/16 German. When you go back far enough, people usually stayed within their own ethnic circles. Michael 05:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Where's the "World Connect" link? Michael 05:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Weird...I was on the wrong site...Somehow, I was originally redirected to www.rootweb.com (despite correct spelling), where god knows how many pop-ups randomly popped up when I would go to a different page and the necessary searching capabilities were not available. Michael 05:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC) It doesn't say what his father is, does it? Michael 05:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

So rootsweb.com is predominately WASP-oriented? Michael 06:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

"Jewish American" in "European American" template

My second last edit summary stated "The vast majority of Jewish Americans may b of European heritage, but the ethnonym itself is not. There r non-European Jewish Americans. Also, all other hyphenations r based on a European nationality". Perhaps I should have been more specific.

The vast majority of Jewish Americans (and for that matter, most Jews around the world) are of European heritage, that is true, but the ethnonym "Jewish" (and thus also "Jewish American") does not correspond to any one single Jewish ethnic division (in this case European Jewry). There are non-European Jews, and thus also non-European Jewish Americans. To categorize the Jewish American entity (which harbours non-European Jews) as being a European American category, is biased and POV.

All the other hyphenations in the European American template are based upon nationalities (eg. Italian Americans) or ethnic groups (eg. Basque Americans) which are found only in Europe, and then hyphenated with "-American" when they reside in the United States. Jews are not found only in Europe.

If you wish to maintain the ethnonym "Jewish American" in the European American template, then might I suggest a compromise of adding "Jewish American" to any African American, Asian American, Middle Eastern American, or Hispanic American templates there may be.

Also, do realise that by maintaining "Jewish American" in the "European American" template, it's only a matter of time before we have "Muslim American" added too, because there are "Muslim Americans" of European heritage. Al-Andalus 06:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Chief Justice John G. Roberts' ethnicity

Do you know of a good source to locate such info. One person theorized that his mother is Polish. Her maiden name was Podrasky, though it's probable that she wasn't Jewish due to his religion and the fact that nothing was ever said about this. His father is probably a WASP, I would presume. Nothing came up on rootsweb.com in pertinence to him. Have you seen anything, or can you feasibly locate anything? Michael03:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed...I've wondered about it since I watched the confirmation hearings on TV...It's pretty weird. On his talk page, someone said that his mother is Polish (or of Polish descent), but I don't know. One would think he was just a WASP, but his mother's surname says differently. Michael 04:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

With a last name like Podrasky, I'm surprised the media didn't try to dig anything up. It makes no sense. Michael 04:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

You would have at least expected them to make something up... Michael 05:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes...And Scandinavian due to the fact that he is "distantly related" to Dakota Fanning. Michael 05:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised you even bother with the IMDB considering the fact that scarcely anything on there is accurate. I wouldn't even know where to begin. Michael 05:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to wonder how many times we have blamed the IMDB of plagiarism in cases in which the article writer actually copied the IMDB... Michael 05:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Ummm...About Sophia Bush, I found this on some fan forum, not that it explains much of anything in the slightest bit. [4]

I'd actually never heard of her before... Michael 05:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the name Sophia Anna could promote the Italian thing, but I have no idea...Wait-who's obscure that I edit? Michael 05:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't sound familiar...Maybe it was just some random person I came across and edited (or it might have been a character on a show)? Michael05:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I just moved a pic of Neal from her character's (Casey Novak) page. She's actually one of the stars of Law & Order: SVU. Michael 05:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, there is one...I saw it some time ago. I'll look for it later. Michael 06:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Which message board posting? Michael 06:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh...And Diane Neal (when she originally came on the show as a guest star-the rapist), she and two colleagues viciously raped a male stripper, tying him to a bed and threatening him with a letter opener. Michael 06:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone even know who he is? [[[User:Mike 7|Michael]]06:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Yeah, that's why I edit television actors' articles more frequently than film actors. Michael 06:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. The rest of the time I do god knows what... Michael 06:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe her book says something... Michael 06:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Name

I've known you aren't really a Jack, yet it's been all we have had to call you. I just didn't think it was the same as mine. That's good to know, anyway, so that I needn't think of "Jack O'Lantern" when I think of who ou actually are. Michael 01:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and about John Roberts...The person who posted on the article's talk page that Roberts' mother was Polish just thought she was, despite saying it as a fact. Were it Polish, it would probably end in -ski, like mine. Those that end with -sky are not always Jewish, but sometimes Russian, although it is possible the person has Jewish ancestors. Oh, well...I'm really surprised, though, that no one has said anything about Roberts' heritage. Michael 01:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

That's really weird... Michael 01:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but you would think there would at least be some type of speculation on the Internet, because assuredly not everyone would automatically assume that to be a WASP name. Oh, and when he was speaking Greek...If I recall correctly it was during his opening statement at his confirmation hearing, and he's also referenced it in multiple rulings he's handed down (j/k). Michael 02:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

But that only translates to him being an Irish-American who is not fully Irish. It doesn't really contradict itself. Michael 05:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, well, they'll tack any fact on there someone asks for. One person could submit, "Is Irish, English, Dutch, French, and very Greek," whereas someone else may say, "Is African-American". Both will end up on the page. Michael 05:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

His surname certainly isn't. Michael 05:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Michael 05:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Only if I feel so inclined to be...I'm not listing specifically where in Ireland, since they were from different areas. Michael 05:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I just went back to put the source and you already did. Michael 05:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

And I notice that you have an article up for nomination. Michael 05:19, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I only do greeting if someone has already edited on an article I am on and they have not been greeted/welcomed. Michael 05:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I took your advice, went from your nominee, and somehow ended up there. Michael 05:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe they thought saying "white" would be politically incorrect. In one quote from him, he says something about having soul, even though he's a white boy. Michael 05:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

IMDB doesn't post sexuality or religion? Oh, I heard that in regards to someone's religion once...but sexuality, too? Michael 06:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose that's true... Michael 06:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Ethnic Jew/Ethnic X

It's true that if we go by Jewish ethnicity that people with two Jewish parents are "Jewish" ethnically, but the vast majority of Jews today (and like back then) would never call themselves only "ethnically Jewish". So it's really all about their ancestor's identification with an ethnicity - like Polish Jews would be a good example. For whatever reason they identify with this ethnicity is really unknown - it could be that they had gentile ancestors of that ethnic group in their background or for really any number of reasons. 70.146.75.24 04:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Welcome!

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If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask another fellow member, and we'll be happy to help you. Again, welcome! We look forward to seeing you around! plange 06:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Short Descriptions

By the way, the way you added a short description of each person on List of Czech Jews was really helpful and makes the list look nice and clean. I'm gonna start copying the way you do it, if that's ok ;) 72.144.183.169 14:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and I wanted to share with you something I think would strengthen the "source it" policy. The only drawback I've seen with it is when one "relatively" reliable source makes a misleading claim by calling someone "X" and not mentioning under what circumstances. For example, The Elvis issue is still pressing. The source you having calling him "Jewish" is really somewhat of a tabloid heading "Elvis is Jewish the old fashioned way." It doesn't really claim Elvis IS Jewish, it's just a heading trying to sucker people into reading the circumstances in which, by Jewish law, he would be. With "sources" like that, a lot of people can be misleadingly categorized. Since Elvis didn't practice Judaism and his ancestral line is ridiculously distant, calling him "Jewish" is a little far-out despite there existing a link saying it. I just think that we need to weed out what's a source that's stating a serious fact and what's a source thats somewhat playing with words. Wouldn't you agree? 72.144.183.250 18:53, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Headline is just really an example. But since when have we gone by rabbinical law on wikipedia? I agree, it might be easier to do it that way, but from what I see people with Jewish fathers are still often counted as Jewish. 72.144.183.250 19:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, by most cirumstances that would work fine. It just so happens the Elvis bit is really really pushing the boundaries. 72.144.183.250 19:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and one more thing about sources that say "X is half Jewish." Since we don't put "half Jewish" anymore, how do we list someone if they claim to be "half"? 72.144.183.250 19:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I think we should strive to find sources that explicitly say when someone is half for use as a primary reference. Oh, by the way, I'm gonna merge List of Jewish American actors with List of Jewish actors and actresses because they're pretty much identical. I didn't even realise there were two until now. 72.144.183.250 19:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Look for yourself. The lists are identical. What I mean is that losing the whole "half Jewish" comment thing doesn't seem like a great idea when the person explicitly states they are "half Jewish," so if it is absolutely 100% necessary that we lose it, the smartest thing would be to find a reference that explicitly states "half Jewish" unlike some which just say "Jewish girl from Jersey." 72.144.183.250 19:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well because a lot of places just put "Jewish" regardless of whether the person identifies as half or not. That's why. I put up the merge notice, but I doubt there's going to be on discussion on it. 72.144.183.250 19:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh and the "two conflicting sources" bit we talked about earlier. Instead of just listing the person in both, I think it's somewhat wiser to pair up exactly how many sources say one thing as opposed to another. That way it sorta weeds out the one conflicting one as a misinformed source. i.e. adherents, nndb, and most often written-article sites (like totallyJewish) do this a lot. 72.144.183.250 19:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I know, thats the problems with nndb, adherent, jinfo, totallyjewish, wikimirrors, jewwho, and the infinite amount of nationality/religion sites out there...they don't always list a source. It may seem weird that we need a source from a source, but I'm sure you see it the same way I do.

And the Presbyterian Jewish thing would contradict unless the source explicitly said or implied it was Jewish by ethnicity...which many many sites don't do. By the way, when/if you want to source a big list (whatever kind) contact my help at Usertalk:The Jujugoe. I like making and stylizing the comments. 72.144.183.250 19:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Out of curiousity, what ever happened to the bit about Evan Rachel Wood's father being a Christian and mother a convert or something confusing like that. It's all over the wikimirrors. 72.144.183.250 20:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow. That's a lot of effort put into it. I dunno how long it takes wikimirrors to update. A lot of novice users re-copy bad information. I wish there was a way to ban wikimirrors. Anyway, you didn't really respond to my offer at sourcing. I was thinking maybe whenever you're up for it we do List of Jewish American composers. It's a little messy in my opinion. 72.144.183.250 20:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Great. Well there's no need to hurry it. I'll just inform you if/when I start. 72.144.183.250 21:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Dakota

Particularly the little slogan at the bottom. Michael 18:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: Blocking

I haven't received an e-mail from you, please resend. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 19:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not getting anything. Are you sending to radiokirk(at)fastmail(dot)fm? RadioKirk (u|t|c) 19:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright got that one. While I'm looking this up, have you tried to e-mail Acadamenorth? RadioKirk (u|t|c) 19:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Never mind. No block shows but I've unblocked the IP as collateral damage yet again ;) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 19:53, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

No, probably not :S RadioKirk (u|t|c) 20:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

About.com

Once while sourcing, I saw you actually used them once some time ago. I was quite surprised. Michael 20:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Aside from trivia sites, I don't think anything calls Amurri an Italian-American, as her father is from Italy. Therefore, most sources typically say she is the daughter of Susan Sarandon and Franco Amurri, or, at best, that she is the daughter of Susan Sarandon (who is half Italian) and Italian director Franco Amurri. Because her father is from Italy, few things would probably just say that she is an Italian-American due to the fact that they can be more specific by referencing her parent(s). Michael 20:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember who you sourced with it (it wasn't the genealogy site), but it may have been something from an interview... Michael 20:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Nowhere do they state that they need to be specific about such a matter. Michael 23:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but Ricci is part Italian, nonetheless. You'll notice they also list Lara Flynn Boyle, who's basically in the same situation as Ricci. They acknowledge Italian-Americans as Americans of Italian descent. Ricci is certainly part Italian. Michael 23:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Not if one is using it as a reference to see who is of Italian descent. Michael 23:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

A quick move

Hi Jack. I noticed that if we moved List of Czech Jews to List of Jews from Czechoslovakia we would only have to drop two names Ignaz Moscheles and Franz Kafka, both of who are on the Austrians list anyway. It's a quick solution. 72.144.158.14 01:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Yea, do you think its a good plan? I unfortunately get signed off almost automatically whenever I'm logged in on wikipedia - a cookies issue. I'll see if I can make the movie anyway, its usually delayed. 72.144.158.14 01:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there an issue with Kafka being on the list? I don't see why he can't be. I wasn't sure when he died. 72.144.158.14 01:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I know. I still don't see exactly whats wrong with the way it is. Do you? 72.144.158.14 01:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I would just prefer to leave it the way it is. Does "Czech and Bohemian" mean they have to be both CZECH and BOHEMIAN or CZECH or BOHEMIAN. If it's CZECH and BOHEMIAN then we leave out tons of Moravians/Silesians. If its CZECH or BOHEMIAN then we add a bunch of names that are already on other lists. 72.144.158.14 01:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Megan Ewing

I din't move her back. That wasn't in my edit. Something's obviously having problems. Michael 06:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I only just saw your reversion. I didn't click on it before. Michael 06:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I've had some strange experiences on here. Twice, edits have gone through and shown up in the history, but whatever was stated somehow never actually appear in the article. Michael 06:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I went to the graveyard to wish dead things dead...Actually, one such example is when I added Alexandra Cabot to the Cabot disambig. page, and at first, there was no change to the page. I reinstated the info. in the same spot, and it went through, showing no change to the page as if it had already been there (though, of course, it shows no changes at all [5]). Michael 06:22, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Certainly not an 18 hr. difference! Aside from that, you cannot make edits without making some type of change. If it was already registering as being there, the edit would not have gone through. I don't know...It's just weird. Michael 06:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Even that's not very specific. Michael 06:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

According to IMDb? Michael 07:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd actually never even heard of him. Michael 07:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't watch Lost. I know about a lot of people (not just from TV), but neither Grabeel nor Lilly are ones I know of, though I may have heard Lilly's name before. Michael 07:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Mariano Barbosa

Mariano Barbosa have Italian passport. Matt86hk talk 07:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Noah Fleiss

I'm not sure if this is reputable, but I did find something... (look toward the bottom) http://movies.go.com/movies/review?name=brick_2006&genre=drama&studio=Focus%20Features

-Bri 12:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Lindsay Lohan

Since you had posed the question, I thought I'd mention that I left the marginal entry about Harry Morton intact because there are several pictures of them hand-in-hand. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 15:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Stephen Colbert

The article did include information on Stephen Colbert being Irish. If it is no longer in there that means it was removed as vandalism and no one ever caught it. He should remain in the Irish-American actors category. 75.3.60.23 18:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Have you seen my list of..

Hi there. I was just looking at your most recent page contributions, including Umar Bhatti, and I was just wondering if you would like to help me out.

I have a list of missing cricketers on my User page. Some of these include Canadian cricketers such as Zahid Hussain and George Codrington and the like who have played in tournaments such as the ICC Trophy. I've got most of their names by searching Cricket Archive and the like. Just wondering whether you were interested in looking at them. Thank you. Bobo. 19:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

MadJack said: What do you mean they were missing? Were did they go? :)

When I say missing, they never really have existed in the first place, but they need Wikipedia articles written on them. I will start work as best as I can. Sorry for the confusion. Bobo. 19:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Spacing

As it is now, there are spaces between the end of the name/occupation and the citation for the majority of them after that point. It lacks conformity. Michael03:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Please refer to the bottom of my talk page. A new discussion has erupted. Perhaps you could help to shed some more light onto the topic for this user. Michael04:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

He just redirected WASP to Jew. This is getting ridiculous. Michael 04:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I ended up reporting that user. In regards to the spacing, what I have read has said it must follow the punctuation, and I've seen it applied with both a space and no space, so I don't know if it matters. The page just needs a bit more conformity in regards to that, though. Michael 05:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and Sophia Bush also became a member of the Bush family with that user's edits. Don't worry; it's been reverted. Michael 05:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, in Kennedy's time he was not considered a WASP, but by today's standards (and today's usage), he certainly is. That just goes back and shows you when WASP had a literal definition that no longer applies to the same degree. Michael 05:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

No, no one I know has a Wikipedia account, nor do they know I have one. That made it all the more strange with the statements made by that individual. Michael 05:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

And as for the urban dictionary, that was the first site I saw that backed up the usage on the page. Nonetheless, it expresses the definition as today, and that was my sole aim, as the user seemed to believe I was entirely wrong about needing to report verifiability, though that is, after all, one of the things that Wikipedia is established on. Michael 05:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I saw the archive. Michael 05:28, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I just saw it. Michael 05:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The WASP vandal has returned. Michael 06:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

He doesn't like that one cannot break Wiki policy, addressing it as "bs". You may want to head over there to inform him as to the reason he cannot develop his own definition for WASP. My efforts have failed. Michael 07:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Since the block took effect, he has posted. Michael 07:12, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I would certainly hope not. Michael 07:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Danny O'Rourke

I don't remember anything about him being Irish. His family is fairly well off, his mother is a spanish teachers and his father a businessman. If he was Irish, he never made news of it. Rkevins82 13:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

We went to the same high school. He's brilliant. Tough life.Rkevins82 17:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Unspecified source for Image:Abrooks.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Abrooks.jpg. I notice the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this file yourself, then there needs to be a justification explaining why we have the right to use it on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you did not create the file yourself, then you need to specify where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the file also doesn't have a copyright tag, then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Fair use, use a tag such as {{Non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Nv8200p talk 17:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Hilarie Burton

Hey, I wanted your opinion on something... I rewrote the Hilarie Burin article in an effort to make it look better and to get rid of the trivia section. But, as soon as I updated it, someone reinstated the trivia. Most of it is now within the text of the article. The rest (near the bottom of the article), I maintain, is unencyclopedic and worthless. What should I do? Can I do a deletion vote deal for THAT section? Cuz, I mean, really, is the fact that her nickname is H-Bomb and she is born a week apart from her costar worth mentioning? -Brian1979 (talk · contribs)

YES!, that is IDEAL! I'm so happy to not see any Trivia :-) -Brian1979 (talk · contribs)

Biography Newsletter August 2006

The August 2006 issue of the Biography WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. plange 01:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Unabomber

Yes, he was absolutely psychotic. Michael 08:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Italian-American politicians

This category was previously deleted; please do not recreate it. Postdlf 16:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

To interject here, doesn't that seem a bit odd? We can have Category:Irish-American singers and Category:Italian American actors, but not Category:Italian-American politicians? Michael 21:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Deletion doesn't make sense when you consider the other categories (and how many Italian-American politicians we have listed). Michael 21:59, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

A smile

Æon ^{Insane Ward} has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding {{subst:smile}}, {{subst:smile2}} or {{subst:smile3}} to their talk page with a friendly message. Happy editing!

Æon ^{Insane Ward} 22:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Photos

It has just come to my attention that we have a Category:Irish-American politicians. Granted such, either we should be able to have Category:Italian-American politicians or neither should exist. Michael 01:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

But then what's to prevent an admin. (the one above, for example) from deleting it again? Michael 05:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Then I'm surprised the Category:Italian American actors wasn't deleted, too, since it originally was in that deletion vote. Michael 05:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

So if this were made without a hyphen, that still seems problematic. To most people, it would seem the same. Michael 05:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Then again, it's possible he didn't see it due to the hyphen. If he was looking through AfDs and saw a deleted item was once more blue instead of red, that may have been the impetus for the change. Michael 05:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Michael 05:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The Irish-American politicians still hyphenate. Michael 05:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Done. See it here. Michael 05:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

If we have the list, why this too? Michael 06:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

For the politicians, most of the sources are on the list. You may want to go to the list and make some changes with the categories of the politicians. Michael

And we should pursue that...once we have all of the categories changed. I'm just starting Nevada. There are a lot left. You should do some, too. Michael06:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you do New York to Rhode Island? I did the rest. Michael 06:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Jack Black (actor)

Hello. You seem to edit this article quite a lot, and you might wish to add your name to the {{maintained}} template on the talk page. I have already added mine, but since you edit the article frequently, you might also wish to do so. Thanks and regards, Iolakana|^T 15:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Alex Crockford

Excuse me, how can you think this guy didn't appear in Movie 3? As regular Harry Potter editors know, DON'T trust IMDB. And in any case-next time merge to Minor actors and actresses in Harry Potter. I'm sure you know of a lot of extras that are in the Harry Potter films and have pages as they should have. I've gotten the matieral back and I'm going to merge it with the Minor actors and actresses page. And surley, who do you think played Charlie Weasley if he didn't? Carmelapple 19:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, O.K. But if you go to the IMDB page and you click more cast or whatever it's called don't you see Crockford's name? Carmelapple 19:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

We should add him. Carm;elapple 23:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The ethnicity categories are going mad...

Someone is now making Italian-American women cats. and all. Go here [6]. I'm asking that all the new ones be merged into the old ones. Michael 00:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

You might want to go there and voice your opinion. If someone is "browsing" as the creator of those categories has said, then why do they need gender division? If you're browsing an ethnicity list, then you needn't browse ethnicity lists by gender. Michael02:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Polish-Americans

Well, that's a very interesting factoid. Anyway, in Ace Young, how much do you think should be said in Career? American Idol, of course, has been the largest part of his career, yet the following sections discuss his time on Idol. Michael 05:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

In which section do you think those (external critical analyses) should be placed? Michael 05:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Not much exists from the performances (I guess the reviews were just in news articles which are now gone). All that remains are the sexuality speculation blogs and whatnot. Michael 05:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you see anything else that needs to be changed right now? Also, do you think post-Idol should come before the performances? The performance template is pretty big. Michael 05:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks...And wow - you're now coining verbs, lol? Michael 06:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so he's not, apparently...This is what I found:

"FAITH FACTS Leaving aside the question of which team Ace plays on, there's also the question of which church he worships in, another minor obsession in cyperspace. Posting on aceyoung.net on March 3, someone named Connie assured a previous poster that Ace is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a.k.a. Mormons. She knows, she wrote, because "when he was little, he went to church where I went. He was quiet and well-behaved."

But dad Jay says Ace is not a Mormon -- "He's a nondenominational Christian." He is also, says Jay, "a hard-working, aspiring artist and as nice a guy as you'll ever meet." In fact, "he was a Boy Scout," says Ace's maternal grandfather Mills Whitney, 87, of Newhall, Calif., a small town north of L.A.'s San Fernando Valley." [7]

It's in a forum, but it's a news article that someone posted in a forum; it's nowhere else. Michael 06:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Anything else? Michael 06:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure...Have all the main concerns been met in your opinion? Michael 06:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I edit Katharine McPhee, too, and I agree with you, but the concerns in this one were listed and therefore easier to address. Why don't you write to McPhee's mother? Michael06:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of which, did you ever write to Catherine Crier? Michael 06:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

In person or over the Internet? And is it 50% for her? Michael 06:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Sarah Jessica Parker's article says her mother may have been Jewish? Do they not know? Michael 06:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I found sources for those two things on Ace Young. Michael 06:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, one wouldn't assume someone with the last name "Parker" was Jewish in most cases. Michael 06:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, Black depends...I know one "Black" who's 100% German. Michael 06:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Or it might have been something like "Blach" or "Block". Michael 06:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Which category do you think we should use for Young's religion? Michael 07:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

A category for two?... Michael 07:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

There are no broader categories into which that presently falls? Michael 07:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's for those who "make Christian music". Michael 07:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Mad Jack

Is/Was this you at one time? Michael 07:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

nt? Michael 07:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I see. Is there a reason you needed to change? Michael 07:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, then. Thanks for explaining. Michael 07:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Katharine McPhee

Nowhere is it discussed. When I first saw it posted on the AI forum, I inquired, and no one knew, even though someone had just said it. Michael 03:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I bet it will... Michael 03:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Name

I changed my account name, so I'll revise the edits on your account page so they link to the new one. Michael 05:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

What was Ellen? Michael 09:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Maiden name? Michael 09:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

So you don't know that she's not, then? Michael 09:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Conflict

You and Redvers seem to have a conflict. I have not looked into this situation at all (I have no idea if either side is "right") but I'd like to ask that you both take a step back and cool off for a few hours. If you still have a conflict after that, please feel free to use me as a mediator. On the other hand, you may already have resolved matters sufficiently. --Yamla 22:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not currently investigating the problem so my comments are about a related issue, not the matter at hand. But please consider emailing me if you are unable to edit because of an autoblock. I can remove blocks as I am an admin and would do so for collateral damage (assuming I'm not violating policy). Additionally, have you considered adding a comment at the top of the IP address discussion page indicating that you, a legitimate editor, share this IP address with vandals and so any blocks should be applied only to the anonymous IP and/or only for a short time? I don't know what IP address it is so I don't know if there's a prominent comment there. If you let me know aobut the IP, I'll monitor it. You may not want to do that, however, for privacy reasons. Also, despite how annoying this is, I implore you to remain civil and assume good faith. I will do what I can to help limit the collateral damage from this in the future. You are a valuable editor and I'd hate to lose you over this. Redvers is also a valuable editor, mind you; I'm not taking sides here. --Yamla 22:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

My Keira Knightley edit

Hey, what i was trying to do, was reflect the fact the she has recently finished work on "Atonement". When i tried to save that, it told me that the monstersandcritics.com link that was being used as a source was spam, so i removed it hoping that someone could add a new source for that info. Although, in actualy fact they are not living together so it's a bit of a moot point. I'm going to go back and try and edit the "Atonement" info, but if Wikipedia will let me, i will of course naturally let the monsters and critics source stay. Amo 03:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Non-Denominational Christians

But aren't they basically alternative (i.e. not fitting into other cats.)? Michael 05:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm just cutting down on the personal things...Um, oh yes, your comment. Do you think we should actually make a category if it's just for the miscellaneous? Michael 05:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

But they're Christians without any further specific affiliation. That seems to be a bit controversial to just stick them all together. Michael 05:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I may get to that later. Michael 05:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Channing Tatum

Heheh, sorry about that, but peoplr are always writing random stuff on Tatum's page. Unsourced, I assumed it was BS. Did you see what was written earlier today about his sexuality? I assumed it was BS as well, and wrote about it on the talk page. -FateSmiled&DestinyLaughed 18:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Out of curiousity I did google it, more than once, and haven't been able to come up with anything besides unsourced Wikipedia crap, blogger wishful thinking, and other mess from gossip sites. -FateSmiled&DestinyLaughed 18:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Help: my suspicions over a new vandal

You know the "Jumper" rumour that was added to ScarJo's page? Someone did that over at Mishca Barton too:[8] The posts on the IMDb forums are under different names but both wiki edits wre done by user: 124.177.218.132, so either it's someone being sneaky on IMDb but lazy on Wikipedia, or user 124.177.218.132 is acting in good faith on the IMDb "scoops". Should we leave on a warning message on 124.177.218.132's talk page? Amo 20:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC) Okaaaay, it's just that i'm not very good at these things, and i don't think i'd be able to grapple with anyone intent on widespread vandalism here. Amo 20:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

User page suggestion

I came across your page today, and had the idea that you should display your awards on a separate user subpage. 12.74.43.143 04:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Collateral damage again. I can not stress this enough. User:Acadamenorth simply must be unblocked. As long as he is blocked, half the time I try to edit the "Autoblocked" message re-appears. No, clearing the IP doesn't work. Neither, for the most part, does finding the autoblock and removing it (as User:Yamla has tried to do). The whole autoblocked game has been going on with me since January, first with a batch of anon vandal users, and now this. Enough already. 'Enough'. UNBLOCK Acadamenorth. Mad Jack 07:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Well no autoblocks for that user outstanding at the moment, unblocking the IP directly is a good way to removed autoblocks, so if it recurs post that information (or blocking the IP Anon Only also takes higher precedence than autoblocks and would enable you to edit). --pgk^(talk) 17:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Pete Miser

Thanks for correcting my unfounded assertion that Pete Miser was born in 1956 and again in 1992. Oops! —Serein 08:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Samuel L. Jackson

It looks like this is all I ever talk to you about, but that's alright. Are you helping to get the article to Good Article status? I see on your user page that you have helped put articles on both the Featured and Good article lists. I tried to get this one nominated for good article status, but it needs more citation. I'm assuming you already know that since you have reworked the page recently. As of right now does the page appear as if it can reach good article status, or does it need even more citations. Let me know, I'll try to work this page as much as I can this week to get it to good article status. Also, does it have the potential for Featured Article, or does that require even more clean-up. Let me know, thanks. --Nehrams2020 20:46, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Birth records

How are you able to access people's birth records so easily? I'd like to look up my own. MrBlondNYC 03:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Isabel Lucas

Jack O'Lantern, I was wondering where you found out that: 'Isabel is leaving Home & Away in late October/ early November as her charcter Tasha Andrews was killed off by the cult responsible for getting her pregnant.' I would really like to know where you got that info. Serenacw 09:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

BLP on Talk pages, not Main

Ooops, thanks for the fix. -- Tomlouie | talk 17:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Isabel Lucas

Actually,on the Isabel Lucas page history,it showed yesterday that you were the last person to edit it.I then checked it this morning and the last edit was made by an I.P address.I am still not sure what is going on since according to the page,you were the last edit on August 22.Serenacw 00:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

You know, it wouldn't hurt to do a two-second Google search...

Like with the Marty Schottenheimer article, he has said consistently that he's of German-American descent [9], although it's not in the article, a two-second Google search reveals many sources saying it is. Before reverting, why not try searching first?--Folksong 00:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

John C. Reilly

John C. Reilly has never referred to having a Lithuanian mother. The Guardian interview with him says he does, but he never said anything about it in the interview. 75.2.247.21 04:14, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

There are no other sources that make that claim and he has never referenced it himself. One source is not good enough. 75.2.247.21 03:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Martha Stewart of Polish origin

Of course! Her parents were (are? her mother still lives) Polish immigrants to the US! Read antyhing about Martha's biography, f.e. at her website marthastewart.com :P ;) Her surname 'Stewart' is from her husband. She was born as Kostyra, a Polish girl ;)

Marha Stewart

Oh my God, can't you find something? :P a lazy wikipedian http://www.marthastewart.com/page.jhtml?type=learn-cat&id=cat653&navLevel=4 "Q: What is Martha’s heritage, and where are her parents from? A: Martha is of Polish descent; both her parents’ families emigrated from Poland. Martha’s maiden name is Kostyra (ko-STY-ra)."

Bismillah Khan INCOTW tag

Hello. You made this edit. Can you please explain to me why the tag should be on talk page only. Such a tag is a norm followed by all the COTWs at wikipedia and followed at WP:INCOTW too. I don't see anything particularly wrong about it. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 19:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I was just curious. The tag would remain for only a week, so no problem with it. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 20:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Image:Lsobieski.jpg

Image:Lsobieski.jpg was being used solely to depict Leelee Sobieski, not to provide critical commentary on the film. I orphaned the image. --Yamla 21:21, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Michael Lucas formatting

Hi - you made a change to Michael Lucas (porn star) that I don't understand; I'm just looking for an explanation of what it does. You changed this:

<references />

to this:

<div class="references-small"><references /></div> 

What does this do? I've not seen it on other pages; is this what should be used on every page? Thanks.—Chidom ^talk  01:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. Obviously the "standard" was arrived at by people who don't wear bifocals for regular life and a completely different pair of eyeglasses for computer work...but with any luck, they'll get older, too, and find out what that's like! :-)  —Chidom ^talk  03:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

we've known each other for a while

You might not know who I am, but I feel like I have known you well. I have been an AU for a long time. My IP has changed many times. But you and me have had a lot of interactions. I feel a little bit sad that I know you so well, but you probably don't realize that so many of the anonymous users you dealt with was one person. 75.2.247.21 04:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

ethnicity in first line

It is appropriate to put ethnicity in the first line for people such as Rudolph under Wiki standards, inasmuch as this is of note in her case. She is for example listed in the Wiki list of Black Jews. Please revert. Tx.

--Epeefleche 13:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC) ethnicity in first line It is appropriate to put ethnicity in the first line for people such as Rudolph under Wiki standards, inasmuch as this is of note in her case. She is for example listed in the Wiki list of Black Jews.

I am concerned that you have without addressing this reverted all of my changes.

Please revert to my text.

If you have an issue, raise it through the channels that Wiki has set rather than vandalising all my changes by reverting them without appropriate discussion or adherence to Wiki standards.

As mentioned, Wiki has indicated enthnicity is notable in all of these instances by including them on a list of Black Jews.

Tx.

--Epeefleche 13:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

List of Jews from Czechoslovakia

Hi Jack/Michael, can you move List of Czech, Bohemian, Moravian and Slovak Jews to List of Jews from Czechoslovakia? The sources in place now don't reflect the title as well as they would with the change. Furthermore, I'd like to add a list of Slovak (from Czechoslovakia) Jews. I can't do the move myself for the reasons I explained before, otherwise I'd have to do it from another computer. Also, were you on wikipedia before your first edit under JO'L? I keep on coming across the edits of an old user (don't remember the username off the top of my head) who wrote and edited similarly to you. 72.144.60.142 02:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems like u were taken care of.

nope ... never operated under another name. just got into this recently.

--Epeefleche 08:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

O'Brien

That's a lot. I added it all in. Michael 08:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but sadly, they do not have blogs in which people eagerly inquire about their ethnicities. Michael 08:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course. It is being operated from the bench. Too bad we didn't find anything on that. Michael 08:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

oona king

pls revert. if ever there was an approprate time to list one as a black jew, i think this would be it.

you are overreaching. kindly desist.

tx.--Epeefleche 08:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

User talk:Epeefleche

You may want to keep an eye on this user. Fond of adding "Black Jewish" to a number of articles in the header of the article, which we know is a no-no. Mad Jack 15:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey MadJ, at this point I need eyes in the back of my head with all the users I am trying to keep track of :). Keep up the good work of requiring sources for inclusion of material in this project. Cheers! --Tom 14:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. I agree that the thing to do is to follow wiki guidelines. The rub appears to be what falls into the exception category.

Also, I think that we have an odd situation with the Jews specifically. With other religions, often the religion is distinct from the nation. In other words, there was not protestant, or buddhist, or christian, or hindu nation per se.

And when it comes to nations, we do indicate that in the first line.

With Jews, oddly, they are not just a religion. They are also a nation, dispersed (largely) for a couple of thousand years. Call them the Hebrews, or the people of Israel, or the Jewish nation, or Israelites....

So query whether this special consideration does not call for a special approach.

We have categories, and we try sometimes without much grace to force entities into them, and then apply the rules, but happily Wiki left an exception here and happily we are all bright enough to recognize exceptions and discuss how we might address them.

Thoughts?

--Epeefleche 20:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)--Epeefleche 20:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)--Epeefleche 20:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/User_talk:Epeefleche"

So ... the first question might be, because of the above dispersed nation issue, whether the Jews as a group deserve to be treated as any other nation, and mentioned in the front line.

The argument becomes even stronger, I would think, when someone's bio includes information relating to the fact that they are Jewish. Abraham Joshua Heschel, Sandy Koufax, Hank Greenberg, Oona King, Elie Wiesel, Jackie Mason, Mark Spitz, and Albert Einstein come to mind.

In any event, there is something a mite redundant I think about even mentioning, as to others, born in "new york," for example, and then mentioning that they are american.

More thoughts?

--Epeefleche 01:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

categories for articles only, not user pages

Thank you for pointing that out, Jack. I wasn't aware of that. I've been pasting articles that are marked for deletion into my user space so I can use the information in a future list. I've commented out all the categories in those articles now. Dekkappai 18:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks.

BTW, you may be interested in my above comment.

Have a good weekend.

--Epeefleche 01:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Citing

I know, but when we lose a source that was from a news article, it's only so long before someone deletes the information. Michael 19:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Most of the time, that's really not feasible, considering that many news sites are not based directly off newspapers. Michael 19:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Young

Be careful what you say. When that header shows up when someone searches the Internet, they'll look no further and think that you're calling him a Greek. Michael 05:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You never know. Michael 05:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Italian

It was something I saw that doesn't seem to exist now. Michael 05:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess so. Michael 05:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

COTW tags

Hi. A few days back I had written to you about the INCOTW tag on Bismillah Khan. I came across this interesting discussion on the issue today. Thought you would be interested. - Aksi_great (talk - review me) 14:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Orphaned fair use image (Image:Dunstb.jpg)

This file may be deleted.

Thanks for uploading Image:Dunstb.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently specifies that the image is unlicensed for use on Wikipedia and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful.

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any fair use images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. ResurgamII 21:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Bwahahaha

Okay, it's probably inappropriate to laugh about this, seeing as it's the article about former mayor of Pittsburgh Bob O'Connor, who died last week....

People kept putting the current tag in - your comment about removing it had me laughing out loud. Thanks for making the point. NickBurns 20:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

About "External links" headers

Hello, Jack! I just noticed one of your edits, and thought I'd let you know why I've reverted it. The standard format for "external links" sections is to use the plural "links" in the header, even if there is only one link there. That's because it's a section for (one or more) links, rather than a section for a link, and thus expresses our hope that more will be added. Regards, --Edcolins 06:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Felix Mendelssohn ethnicity

Dear JoL, I noted your change of first line in the Felix Mendelssohn article. Is there a WP convention about this? - I am not aware of it. As Mendelssohn's 'Jewishness' remains a hot item of academic discussion and debate, I think it appropriate to mention his origins here - indeed, it is inappropriate not to mention them. Smerus 12:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Ta, have altered on lines suggested by you.--Smerus 20:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

i.e. 'less awkward'. I hope. I should have written, 'on lines according to WP conventions, of which you informed me'.Smerus 21:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity

Jack, since you are removing references to ethnicity from headers, could you please move them somewhere in the text? Otherwise, the info would be lost. Thank you. Dahn 07:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Jewish reference

Jack, it seems you are removing references to ethnicity from 'headers'. However, the fact that Felix Nussbaum is Jewish (whether you consider this an ethnicity or a religion) is highly relevant, because it is the reason he had to flee and was eventually killed.

I don't see what's so offending about stating that Nussbaum is Jewish, so I reverted. If you can think of a 'less offending' (whatever the offence may be) of saying so (NOT DELETING THIS IMPORTANT PEACE OF INFORMATION), please rewrite.

And if there is a policy about ethnicity in headers, please enlighten me. It seems I'm not the only one who is wondering. Syboor 15:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I found the entry in the Manual of Style. Still, I'm pretty pissed that you just deleted something that was not mentioned anywhere else in the article. Isn't the actual content of the article a lot more important than the organization? If you just discussed things politely I *would* have moved the information, maybe added a bit (about him being religiously Jewish as well as ethnically, but not very strict), maybe clarified that the reason he fleed and was later killed was because he was Jewish, maybe mentioned his most famous painting: a self-portrait with a very prominent Jewish 'David-star'. You don't think Nussbaum is famous for being Jewish? Start a discussion about it, don't delete based on what you *think*. Syboor 18:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree it shouldn't be in the header, I already said I would have moved the information elsewhere if you hadn't pissed me off so much. I'm trying to have a discussion here about your deletion of the information *without* moving it. Or to be bold: I think the old situation (ethnicity in the header) is vastly preferable over the new situation (ethnicity deleted without checking that the information is somewhere else in the article). So what's going to happen to the other few hundred articles? Who is going to check that the information is duplicated elsewhere in the article or that the article (especially the ones mentioning fleeing from Germany or getting killed by nazi's) is still intelligeble? Will you? I'd really like to know, I'm generally concerned about this loss of information, I really want to know what happens next. Syboor 20:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The coup de grâce

I shall never question your logic again. I lay down my sword and you may use it if you wish. MrBlondNYC 09:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

re: Richard Bright (Italian American?)

No, my father neither Italian nor Sicilian, but he sure enjoyed playing them. He was born in Brooklyn, New York, USA. His father, Ernest, was from Brooklyn, whose parents were English. Ernest married Matilda Scott of the famous Scott Clan (from Scotland, but who saw that coming?). He was also part Irish, but I do not know from which side. He was indeed not Italian American, but inherited the dark celtic traits (dark brown hair, tanned skin). He was, however, often cast as Italian gangsters!

Cheers, Jack

(follow up: correct, he was not, good work with the removing)

Jeremy Bright 06:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Jewish ethnicity

I am very uncomfortable with your recent edits removing mention of Jewish ethnicity from articles about individuals whose outlook on the world, in my view, was as much defined by Jewish ethnicity as much anyone's is ever defined by ethnicity or nationality. I'm letting you know, because I have no intention of blindsiding you, that I have brought the issue up at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)#Jewish ethnicity, yet again. I would greatly appreciate if you would come over there and explain what you are up to and why. - Jmabel | Talk 06:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

So as not to make this a chaos, I'll reply to your remarks on my page, but I really think this should be in the more public venue of Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)#Jewish ethnicity, yet again. - Jmabel | Talk 06:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I've replied. And I'm headed for bed, I guess I'll read your response later. - Jmabel | Talk 07:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Jewishness and Judaism

Dear Jack O'Lantern,

see the reply I just posted on the Jewish mathematicians talk page. By the way, I certainly think we ought to have a policy against mentioning, say, whether criminals are "white" or "black" (or "Jewish", for that matter, though I have heard that, at least, gets removed quickly). Otherwise Wikipedia becomes a mirror of any monomaniac's mind. There isn't just reliable and unreliable data, but proper and improper ways of classifying it. Otherwise, we end with Mr. Farrakhan's lists (which, I am sorry to say, are based at least in part on verifiable data.) Bellbird 11:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear J O' Lantern,

thanks for telling me to spend more time working. The debate back in January seems to have been close - but there were many points to be made there that were not made, and one - the possibility of fostering antisemitism - that was made in too shrill a fashion.

I don't think you quite realise that this tag isn't like other tags. I do not think Judaism is a four-letter word. I am delighted that there are many articles in Wikipedia on it. It is just that imposing the tag "Jew" or "Non-Jew" on somebody is an act of violence. This is what the yellow star was about.

It is not that I think being Jewish is terrible. The matter is no different if it is wonderful.

I hope that this fashion will stop at some point. Wikipedia is becoming a chief source of information for many people; to some extent, it sets standards, and does not merely reflect them. A person's biographical page is often the first thing that shows up on them; would you like an extremely rich label to be the first thing that a stranger finds about you? Shall we paint the doors of every person who might be classified as a "Jew" a different colour? Bellbird 16:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Look: the fact that X classifies Y as Z can be stated at a relevant point, when it matters. Thus, if, say, Perelman had got an extra serving of cake (or no cake) for being considered Jewish by the president of the Congo, this fact could be stated at the relevant chronological point in his biography.

Have you seen the proposal I just floated at SlimVirgin's talk page? It is a little far-reaching, but it is clear, and would kill two birds with one stone. Bellbird 16:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is keeping you from nominating all such categories for deletion. Go ahead.

These labels are much stronger than you can imagine. "Greek-American" is a much weaker label than "Greek". Also, have you tried that in Turkey?

The most important thing is this: the act of applying to an individual a label that does violence to his sense of self and the life he has actually lives, yet which he cannot deny, is an unspeakable act of violence. "Greek-American" means nothing save "a person at least one of whose ancestors once lived in Greece". "Jew" means much more - it can mean much more, and be given for just as little - or for even cloudier facts.

Would you like to be labelled, and seen, as Catholic, because one of your ancestors is claimed to be Catholic? What would you do if you could not deny this? Bellbird 16:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There is a crucial difference here. If your mother (or maternal grandmother) was Jewish, you are not just assumed to be Jewish - an assumption which you can falsify. Rather, you are defined as being truly Jewish - not just by Judaism, but by the general public. Remember the hullaboo about Madeleine Albright?

This label is more sensitive than other labels. What we have here is an irreducible binary category that the individual is not allowed to deny. It may completely misrepresent his actual background and his beliefs - and, the way things work, it obliterates them. The individual is firmly associated with historical events that may have occured in a completely different context, and that may escape his understanding.

If you want to nominate other categories, go ahead; I shall vote to delete them. Bellbird 16:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Very well - nominate the other categories. At any rate - it is evident that you are seeing this entire matter from the perspective of the ethnic game that Americans play. Elsewhere, this is seen as a form of falsehood.

What we cannot do is put people against the wall and force them to be "truthful" rather than sincere. We should not make the reader relate to the subject in a way that obliterates his actual background, in its full complexity. This is a label that can do exactly that.

You seem not to understand this. Very well. Bellbird 17:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

This is precisely the problem. If any source's classification can be copied, then we will soak up other people's classifications like sponges. If a list of Jewish slave traders can be verified, should it be included? Bellbird 17:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I once thought as much. I'll direct you to http://jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu/~plarson/smuseum/baj.htm, and let you go on from there. I'd rather not do it myself again.

If you wish, go through the lists of Jewish slave traders yourself, and verify them. The most careful of antisemites (or anti-black people, or your favorite bigot - or your favorite pro-X nationalist, for that matter) will always stick to the facts. They will simply be careful to classify them according to their categories - and categorisations do not admit denials; the conclusions will be drawn automatically by the reader. The only possible critique is a critique of the categories used themselves. Bellbird 17:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course this issue may have to be dealt with in an article. What will happen, though, if a raw list of families that dealt in slaves is put up? Actually, I know - it will be deleted by editors claiming antisemitism. The result will be fine, and the suspected motivation would probably be correct. However, to take such a list down, and keep up all the others, would be sheer hypocresy. If there is a basic intellectual and moral error here at play, there is one in all lists. Bellbird 18:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, I really do not think you know how assimilation and social coalescence work in other countries, and how the very act of cataloguing by origin and "race" can undo them. Are you also aware that matters worked out very differently in the States up to the 1970s - including, and especially, in the progressive discourse? Bellbird 18:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The point is that we are dealing with subjects whose selfs were constructed in a rather different environment - when the current divisive mentality had not yet become all-pervasive.

We shall see when change shall come. Wikipedia is reproducing basic errors of thought that pervade the American media, and, apparently, your own mind, if I may say so. It reproduces them in ways that sharpen them. It will be only so long till the general public recognises its own reflection. The Guardian has already caught up with part of what is going on; of course, it is one of the main perpetrators of the same in the mainstream.

Bellbird 18:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I will take your last statement as a compliment. Just keep one thing in mind: the way matters currently work, Wikipedia will amplify every trend and every monomania. Silence plus noise equals noise. Bellbird 18:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ann Prentiss

I never heard or saw that. I don't see anything that isn't a Wikipedia mirror site that says that, do you? Michael 23:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

That might be best. Michael 23:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Biography Newsletter September 2006

The September 2006 issue of the Biography WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. plange 00:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Definition of Italian-American

From my understanding, this constitutes any American of Italian descent. Prince ia an African-Amercian of rather recent Italian descent (within the last 4 generations), as are many full, half, and quarter breed Italian-Americans of various racial categories regardless of their lingustic and cultural practices.

Alicia Keys

Hi! I'd like to know: why aren't the categories "Irish-Americans" and "Italian-Americans" suitable for her page? It's already been proved that she's of Irish and Italian descent (her mother is Italian-born of Irish descent). And why is the category "People from New York" also wrong? By the way, I don't know if you recognise me, I was 200.138.194.254, and we've already talked about this whole ancestry thing before, but regarding to JoJo. Funk Junkie 20:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

But the fact Alicia has an Irish-Italian mother makes her Irish- and Italian-American, am I right? I mean, her father is Jamaican-born, and you didn't remove "Jamaican-Americans" from her page. Funk Junkie 19:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that even if a person is of Italian descent it doesn't mean he/she is Italian-American? And that the fact a person of Italian descent, who is also of other descents, doesn't make him/her an Italian-American? This whole race thing is really confunsing, I'd like to go deeper into it. Funk Junkie 19:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I think I understand. So maybe the categories "People of Irish descent" and "People of Italian descent" would be more suitable for her page? Funk Junkie 19:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess I got it now. By the way, if Wentworth Miller is English, why is his page included on "American film actors"? Funk Junkie 20:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, right. Well, I think that's it. Thanks a lot! Funk Junkie 20:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd just like to clarify one thing: being of X descent isn't the same as being X-American (or any other nationality)?

Prince: What Rule?

It's not about any rule. If you are refering to those insinuated by the Institution of Racial Accounting, they have wrong for centuries now. They were created and applied out of fear, elitism, imperialism, shame and, subsequently, hatred. The fact is, Prince is of Italian descent, his African/sub-Saharan ancestry and racial/cultural identity do not take away from that fact. Neither does it take away form that fact that Maya, Tom Morello of AudioSlave (Who is half Kenyan and half Italian, but aesthetically can pass as Caucasian, and does so performing with a widley known as 'White' band), Alicia Keys, Salli Richardson, Traci Bingham, Rick Fox, etc... are all Americans of recent/distant sub-Saharan African and recent Italian descent.

As a matter of fact Tom Morello looks as full blooded Italian as any one in the generation produced by the Moorish invasion, and as any modern day Southern Italian.

The rules don't even account for the North African/Moorish ancestry that many Italians and Iberian Europeans have inherited. The rules evoke racism and attempt to cover up the facts; they always have.

However in this case the facts are widely known and celebrated. It's not about race, it's about one's own individual heritage - something you cannot erase.

French-Canadian-Italian-American Madonna, Irish-Italian-American Rosie O'Donnell, and Jewish-Italian-American Joy Behar are considered, and can claim, as such and they aren't even full blooded Italians. All 3 are considered Caucasian/White. No matter the racial categories, the ancestry is there. Take a survey of all of those listed under Category:Italian-Americans, with racial categories aside, you'll find that many are not full blooded Italians, especially among those born in the last 2 generations. And even among the first and second waves that immigrated into America, there was already non-Italian (both distant and recent) ancestry among them. Relir 18:25, 14 September 2006 (EST)

Rick Fox: Your Change

You removed the Italian-Americans category under this page and added him under the Italian American athlete category. How is it ok for Rick Fox to be listed under Italian american athlete and Italian american actor categories, but not be listed under the Italian-Americans category?

Relir 19:19, 14 September 2006 (EST)

Mandy Moore myspace page

Hey I noticed that you removed the link to Mandy's Myspace page. Just wanted to let you know it is her myspace profile, although it was deleted a few days ago it's been fixed. I'm sure I've read somewhere that she has stated on her official website or in an interview somewhere that it is indeed hers. -- Sarz 03:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you should add it back :) I'll see if I can find anything verifying the myspace page to be Mandy's. -- Sarz 11:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Ibid

It means "in the same place" and I find that the deletion was unnecessary and actually detrimental in that information, albeit a small piece of information, was removed from the article that was valid. The use of ibid is common in obituaries to indicate that someone was born and died in the same place; the other common way is to repeat the place of death outright. If you objected to ibid, you could have at least put in Florence, Italy in its place instead of deleting the information outright. -Yupik 11:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Wentworth Miller

I was just about to remove that bit of trivia and go sidetracked. You beat me to it. ;-) -FateSmiled&DestinyLaughed 17:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Raven Riley

I've been watching this page, mainly because of a persistent linkspammer that was targetting it for a while, and have been amused by the longstanding edit war over her ethnicity. Apparently, she may be Italian, Puerto Rican or some other hispanic ethnicity. Apparently, some people think it's very important ;-) Fan-1967 18:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Prince's Italian Ancestry: Noted

"Prince: The Secret Life of America's Sexiest One-Man Band" by, Debby Miller, . Rolling Stone (April 28, 1983): 18-23+.

Full Article

His father, John Nelson, was a musician himself -- a piano player in a jazz band by night, a worker at Honeywell, the electronics company, by day. Nelson is black and Italian; his ex-wife, says Prince of his mother, "is a mixture of a bunch of things." Onstage, the father was called Prince Rogers, and that is what he named his son, Prince Rogers Nelson.

Which would, subsequently, make him Afro-Italian. Relir 15:08, 16 September 2006 (EST)

List of Italian Americans

List of Italian Americans

On this page many of partial ancestry are listed regarless of racial identity. I'm curious if it been officially stated via reputable sources that all listed are indeed considered Italian-American?

Unspecified source for Image:Cmmurray.jpg

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RfA Thanks

Thank you very much for participating in my RFA, which closed successfully today with a result of (50/3/0). If you have any further questions or suggestions, feel free to write me. I hope I will live up to your trust. Michael 01:36, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

List of Italian Americans: Afro-Italian v/s Puerto Rican Italian

Why would Jai Rodriguez be considered, by you, as an Italian-American and not Prince.

Jai Rodriguez is of Puerto Rican (subsequently a product of the Americas) and Italian descent. Puerto Ricans are products of advanced ethnic mixture between Spanish Europeans (many of Moorish Ancestry), African Slaves, and American Native groups (Arawak, Carib, Taino). Prince is of African-American and Italian Ancestries. African-Americans are products of advanced ethnic mixture between various European sub-ethnic groups (both distant and resent). The aesthetic range and ethnic frequency between Puerto Ricans and African-Americans is similar.

Why would Rodriquez qualify as an Italian-American, and not Prince? Seems like you are applying the 'one' drop rule, after all.

Any time you categorize a person under an ethnic group based on a portion of their ethnic heritage you are applying the one drop rule as in the case of Jai Rodriquez. Relir 22:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Prince's Father being called Italian vs. Prince

Did he not inherit his father's genes? Relir 01:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

An edit made to Anne Hathaway (actress)

You wrote here that the Internet Movie Database is not reliable for release dates. Do you know why this is? I've always found it resourceful. Never Mystic (tc) 22:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

That's what I was looking for. Thanks! Never Mystic (tc) 23:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if you have the time, but it'd be useful if we collaborated on Anne Hathaway sometime. If not, thanks anyway! Never Mystic (tc) 22:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I always appreciate the assistance of others. Would you be able to expand the personal life section? You did a great job on Mandy Moore and I believe with some time, Ms. Hathaway will be propelled to her standard. Never Mystic (tc) 20:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Yeah, Hathaway hasn't been known for high-profile relationships (which is a good thing, if you ask me). Perhaps two paragraphs would be a proper minimum, but it depends on what information we come up with. I've done some research too but not much has come up on my end either. Never Mystic (tc) 23:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

It looks like you haven't had much success with information. Thanks for your help, nonetheless! I'll see what I can do about improving it without a lengthy "Personal life" section for the time being. Never Mystic (tc) 21:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks MadJack

That makes things clearer.Jasper23 17:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

"Concede"

You have to understand, I can't possibly "concede" because I was never arguing that Allen should be listed as Jewish in the first place, just that we should follow the sources on this. See, I don't really believe in "discussion" on Wikipedia, just sources. It doesn't matter to me if Allen is listed as Jewish and I have no opinion on whether he should or should not be - what I was trying to say is that we have to let the sources tell us who is Jewish, Scots-Irish-American, etc., because there are a lot of cases out there where editors stick people in 10 X-American categories for every ancestor. So, I brought out all the sources I could find on Allen, and it doesn't look like there is a really reliable source that calls him Jewish, so that should absolutely be removed. Same thing, btw, for Scots-Irish-Americans, because I don't think there is a source for that either, and it seems he's 1/4 of that. So, you should definitely remove both categories until a good source comes up that calls him either Mad Jack 21:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess I was trying to say "concede" in a tongue-in-cheek kind of way, not in a "ha, ha, I win" way, as I found it amusing that both of us independently seemed to give up (You said it might be okay to remove the category name while I said that I guess I would be okay with keeping it). My understanding was that the discussion was (or had at least evolved into) whether to include Allen in the category. Sorry if I misunderstood.

The problem with the category is that it allows for no subtleties. He's either in the category or not. I think this is the kind of thing that warrants discussion on Wikipedia, though maybe not for as long as we have engaged in it. There is so much more information, with more subtleties and details, that can be explained in the text, not in such a black/white fashion as seems to be the case for the categories. I'll get 1 or 2 more opinions, then I'll try to remove the Category:Jewish-American politicians, then maybe you could remove the other (as you seem to have more knowledge on this). The categories should be readded if and only if, as you say, we get reliable sources. Thanks. Ufwuct 21:15, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Vanessa Anne Hudgens

You said: "Hi, I noticed you removed the image of Hudgens' new album from the article. It was used down below under "Career" and placed by the paragraph that talked about the album. I thought that covered fair use? Since it was used directly in the paragraph where it was talked about?"

I don't recall which specific edit you are referring to, but I'm guessing I removed it either because it wasn't being used solely to depict the album (perhaps it was being used to show what Hudgens looks like?) or the image was not provided with a hand-written detailed fair-use rationale justifying its use on that page. --Yamla 22:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Corbin Bleu

It's not openly said on his website but an in interview on Tommy2.net dating back to March 10, 2006, He openly said that he was raised and continues to be in the Christain faith. Quasyboy 1:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Jackie Forster born twice

Oops. And thank you for the correction. Yonmei 19:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Italian Americans

Any recommendations? Michael 21:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

LeoDiCaprio

Some people become so zealous in their efforts to further their agenda that they'll use anything. I notice it again and again. People become unreasonable over the stupidest of things. I just laugh to myself. -FateSmiled&DestinyLaughed 14:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Alexis Stodghill for Deletion

After that huge debate why isn't this vanity page deleted? It was concluded to be deleted at here: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Alexis_Stodghill It's obviously not worth being on here, so why does it remain? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.163.102.238 (talk • contribs) 00:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You mean the red-lettered, deleted article Alexis Stodghill? Is that the article you want deleted? -- Omicronpersei8 (talk) 00:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Jared Padalecki

I just wanted to say what a great job you did cleaning up this article. I personally would like to have seen the name of the role in A Ring of Endless Light retained, but I suppose it's enough that it's in the stub about that tv movie. You've taken an exceptionally messy and redundant actor's article and made it much cleaner and clearer. Well done! Karen | Talk | contribs 22:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Red links

Hi .. I've noticed you occasionally remove red links in your edits ... obviously some red links shouldn't exist because they relate to subjects that will never have their own article, however I think edits such as this one do not fall into that category. I find red links quite useful in providing "to do" lists, and it's always nice to see a new article that one has created immediately linked to by several existing articles. Stumps 11:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Jean Louisa Kelly article

You will need to contribute an image of Jean Louisa Kelly. You cannot take any of the images off of the official website of Jean Louisa Kelly, because it's against the law. --PJ Pete

Overzealousness in reverting ethnic backgrounds...

Dear Jack,

Well, we've clashed in the past and it seems we've clashed again over Bertie Higgins. Instead of reverting my edit "because there's no mention about that in the article," why don't you assume good faith and check before you revert? Here is a source [10] from his official website stating that he is of Irish, German and Portuguese descent.

Judging from your revert patterns, you believe that my edits in regards to ethnic background are invalid until I prove exhaustive evidence to the contrary, while you have the right to revert them without researching the ethnic background of the subjects, examining my edit history and most importantly, assuming good faith? I intend to have no conflicts with you or any other editor here at the project, and if need be, I will be glad to participate in a mediation effort. Sincerely, --Folksong 10:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

Your source does not contradict her Persian heritage thus it doesn’t give you the right to take it out. Take it out again and I will report you for vandalism. Klymen 08:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand. If his grandmother's German and his grandfather's a Persian Jew then his mother would be a Jew with Persian heritage. You're so eager to change this article you don't even stop to think about what you're talking about. Klymen

I don't mind what we have now, It just sounds awkward but if you like it that way you won't hear me complaining. Klymen

Re:Talk Rachel Bilson

This is the bit bugged me as it was unsourced

Her character, Summer Roberts, was initially intended to appear in only a few episodes

How do I know that? But it is minor and I think you'll pass the GA this time

†he Bread 19:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Jennifer_Connelly

There is a discussion of the fair use assertment of an image going on for this page. Your comments on the talk page would be much appreciated. note:This message has been sent to all recent registered editors of the article, less vandal fighters — xaosflux ^Talk 21:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

You are always right.

I'd hate to see when you are wrong. Hasbro 08:37, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Pedantic arguments with you are like territorial pissing. I must find my own tree, or be perpetually attacked by you? Ho-hum. Good bye, good luck...don't bother me again. Hasbro 16:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

See WP:OWN. Have a nice life and don't come by me again. Hasbro 16:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Kirsten Dunst

Lol Well if you have seen Spider-man then I guess you know Kirsten Dunst is still quite an active actress and has constantly appear in tabloids and stuff like that. Maybe you don't like her (I don't like her either), but you can't deny the fact that she is one of the celeb. teenage girlz look up to as aspiring role model.--Bonafide.hustla 03:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

She's playing adult roles doesn't mean teenagers don't idolize her.--Bonafide.hustla 03:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Orphaned fair use image (Image:Lluthor.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Lluthor.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently specifies that the image is unlicensed for use on Wikipedia and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful.

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Hmmm

You said: "Yamla, would you mind re-deleting and protecting Phil of the Future movie, which was already AFD'd [11], as well as remove Halloweentown V: She's A Witch, Twitches 2 and Zenon 4, none of which appear to exist, from List of Disney Channel films? I'm eding to 3rr there or I would have done so myself. Thanks and cheers"

Just did already.  :) --Yamla 23:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The Zodiac

Can you do me a favor and add this film to Robin Tunney's selected filmography? (it's a 2005 film). I'm having a total brain fart moment as to the form... Thanks! -FateSmiled&DestinyLaughed 19:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Serkis

Alright I understand, it is just that his last name Serkis could very well be an Armenian name and due to the Armenian Genocide and the following forced migrations of Armenians, alot of people's last names got mispelled when creating passports, citizenships etc. Hence Serkis could very well be Sarkis, Sarkissian (a very common Armenian last name). Serkis may not be aware of this as many Armenians are not, due to the fact that many's parents wanted to "blend in" with the locals. Anyway I understand your point in those sites being unreliable but due to the high possibility may we put it with a fact disputed tag? Thanks. Fedayee 07:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Alright i'll keep on looking for a reliable source but it will be hard because he may not even know himself for reasons mentioned above. In my opinion, Serkis does not seem like a very British last name anyway. Alright thanks Fedayee 07:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Punkin' Head

I say, Jack, are you keeping your self all in one piece? I hope you don't feel 'all carved up' over things. Happy Halloween. Not having checked, I assume your related articles maintain a spiritedness and inner glow.69.109.163.218 01:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Advice

Shouldn't this be deleted on a non-notable/vanity basis?

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Xavier_Lawlor (I found it while doing dab for Victorian)

-FateSmiled&DestinyLaughed 13:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Red links

Please don't delete red links, unless you're positive they're not worth an article. Red links are used to determine what subjects most need articles, and also when a new article is created it's much harder to go back and recreate links wherever they need to be. —Chowbok 15:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Heh, fair enough. —Chowbok 16:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Kate Hudson

Thanks for spotting that- I didn't think it looked much like Hudson at all! Arniep 01:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Zfhighschool.jpg

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Image:Pgrier.jpg

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• Archive 1
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Re:Talk Rachel Bilson

This is the bit bugged me as it was unsourced

Her character, Summer Roberts, was initially intended to appear in only a few episodes

How do I know that? But it is minor and I think you'll pass the GA this time

†he Bread 19:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Sasha Baron Cohen

All my data comes from being his mother's cousin. I can call his grand mother, Liesel and ask about her husband's parents and grandparents..Maybe I can get one of his uncles to chime in..212.199.119.26 04:56, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

All my data comes from being his mother's cousin. I can call his grand mother, Liesel and ask about her husband's parents and grandparents..Maybe I can get one of his uncles to chime in..212.199.119.26 04:56, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

So, input from the town historian of Ronshausen does not pass until he posts it on the Ronshausen website?? And then it will be post-Wiki and raise doubts?? If a source must be veriafialbe...let someone verify one name...one place or date that a sasha ancestor was in Iran.

I have names of 32 ancestors from his maternal grandmother's side. That is up to the ggggggrand parents. ALL are from Germany. This is mid 18th century. The names are all Ashkenazic...such as Stern, Altmann, Strauss, Eisemann, Kaufmann, Apfel, Lange, Wertheim. Levi is the only name that could go either way, Ashkenazic or Sephardic. And they are dated all the way back to about 1750.

As you say, "Oh well". Facts or sources?...knowledge or a quick line some reporter throws into a minor news report?...What counts??

And if Sashas mother would only post a video interview at YouTube..then we would know the truth.

Sasha's dark skin comes from his maternal grandmothers side. Probably from the Eisemann's (Nice eyebrows too)..and they settled in Mosbach Germany almost three centuries ago. (My mother is sure she is yemenite or gypsy..)

Why is everyone happy enough with the Welsh definition for his father...as if they were in Wales for centuries..which probably is not the case..while for his mothers side it is important to find earlier roots?? ..212.199.119.26

Sorry for botching up this addition..i think i got this in order now. Retrieved from "http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/User_talk:Jack_O%27Lantern"

I assure you it is NOT common knowledge in Israel that he is of Iranian descent-nor is it common knowledge he is of German jewish descent. Few people here know anything about his family. His visits to Israel are pretty much in cognito as far as i know. Don't think he was ever interviewed here. I will google him in Hebrew and see what i come up with.

Cheers! 212.150.13.15 13:56, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow that was quick. His mother's persian "heritage" is a fact though, Everyone in Israel knows of his mother’s Iranian ancestry. I am currently looking for sources that say the same thing without citing wikipedia. I will get back at you on that. Cheers Klymen 05:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

By your logic then any website that mentions his Persian heritage took its information from wikipedia. Do you have any evidence to back up this claim beside saying the wording is similar. Although you maybe right in that some sources take their information from wikipedia. But to say that the guardian, yahoo and whatever else are not reliable sources due to what you speculate as citing wikipedia is not a valid argument. Klymen 05:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I’m going to contact Kirsty Scott (The person who wrote the guardian article). I highly doubt her sources will trace back to wikipedia. Your argument about the guardian taking it’s information from wikipedia (although plausible) is not a valid argument and lacks any solid support and is simply based on your own (and some other people’s) speculations. However you’re right about wikipedia and its effect of circulating wrong information and having them coming back to wikipedia cited from sources that used wikipedia to begin with. But you can’t take things out unless you can prove 100% that the article is citing a wikipedia cited work. Klymen 06:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

That’s the thing. Until you can prove that the cited articles took their information from wikipedia they’re as valid as any other reliable source. Even though you maybe right in that the guardian, yahoo and any other website past August might have used wikipedia as a resource but until that can be proven their validity can not be questioned due to your speculations. I also read the whole German things, please don’t tell me you’re giving that more merit that the guardian. That was written by some guy in the talk pages of the article. Any guy with a computer and a POV can make up stories. I will contact Kirsty Scott and let you know what happens. If she took her information from wikipedia then we can take it out as a source, but until then you can't take it due to speculations.Klymen 06:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying a source (that has been proven to be reliable) can not be thrown out due to what you speculate. Maybe Mrs. Scott saw the Persian thing on wikipedia, researched it and once she was sure it was true she put it on.Klymen 06:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

This guy who claims to have his mother's genealogy- is it the genealogy of his mother or just his mother's father's family? It may well be that the Weissers are Ashkenazi but Baron Cohen's maternal grandmother is of Iranian origin or even Baron Cohen's paternal grandmother? Arniep 20:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced- why is he an expert on the genealogy of Sacha's maternal grandmother if he only knows Sacha's mother's cousin, not one of her siblings? Arniep 20:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

But can you categorically say you checked the yahoo biography before the info was added to Wikipedia (or just after it was added)? From my experience the yahoo bios are quite detailed and accurate, often containing info that is not found on imdb or Wikipedia. Arniep 21:18, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you give example of incorrect information that you have seen in yahoo bios that you think was taken from another source. Like I said, in my experience a lot of the data in yahoo bios has not been availiable elsewhere on the net. Arniep 21:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

How do you know her father's surname wasn't originally Markowitz? Arniep 21:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

So you don't actually have proof her father wasn't originally Markowitz? ;) Arniep 21:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem is you can't remember whether you looked at the Yahoo bio before- that might have been the original source for the Guardian and the person who added the info to WP. Arniep 21:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Eh, you still haven't given me any proof that Yahoo is an unreliable source. Arniep 22:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly- imdb can be edited by any fool- the bios on yahoo can't and are not (they are likely made by some external company as they also appear on another site, can't remember which). Arniep 22:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks like this [12] may be the source of some parts of the bios. Arniep 22:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

OK OK OK OK :-I It looks like this is a right royal cock up. I have done research. The persian info was added by an anon ip Special:Contributions/72.68.157.109 on 15 April 2006 who also vandalised the Eric Stern article ten minutes later:

"Not to be confused with the good looking, sixteen year old, ramaz student and pimp, Eric Stern from Manhattan, New York".

So it's highly unlikely to be reliable - and yes it does look like all these sites got the info from WP :( Arniep 23:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

It's bad PR for Wikipedia. Presumably we better tell the Guardian and Yahoo to correct their info (and that other site). Arniep 00:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

User Klymen is still convinced it's right User_talk:Arniep#Hatcher. I have to say when I look at a pic of Sacha's cousin Simon Sacha is definitely a lot darker and middle east looking. From what I can gather about what we know about his ancestry- we know his mother's parents were Hans Weisser and Leisel Levi, both born in Germany. Leisel was the daughter of Albert Levi and Betty Eisemann (both families being in Germany a number of generations in the towns of Fulda and Mosbach before settling in Frankfurt on the Main). We don't know the parentage of Hans Weisser and we don't really know whether Sacha's father is dark skinned and anything about his ancestry AFAIK. Arniep 11:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear madjack. An edit war is the last thing I want to see happen to this article. I told you before and I’ll tell you again. Your argument might be right but you’re approaching it the wrong way. Just because three editors think something is false it doesn’t make it false. This is a fallacy called appeal to majority (Lets not forget there are people who also want to keep the Persian thing) At this point there is something out there that comes from a reliable source. You and some others have doubts about its factuality. The best thing you guys can do is come up with a reasonable proof that it is taken from wikipedia. Like I said before if you’re going to speculate, I can just as well go ahead and speculate that the writer for the guardian saw it on wikipedia contacted Sacha Baron Cohen’s mother, confirmed it, then she put it on her article. You can not take something off with out proof just because you and some other people ( be it two people or ten people ) think it’s wrong. 23:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

“No article on Wikipedia is required to include any information”. What are you talking about. Wikipedia is meant for information. As long as facts are cited they should be included. There are reliable sources and you’re in no position to decide what’s vital and what is not. Please do not take it out until you have proof that the sources are unreliable. 03:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)~

Jack please email me at wikiarnia AT yahoo DOT co DOT uk as I need you to add pics (I am permablocked so I can't do it). 212.84.98.134 17:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Hatcher

Hey, did you manage to watch the video- if you hadn't got XVid installed you need to download the .exe file at the top here and run it. Arniep 23:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Have you checked the file size is correct (about 349 MB)? If you have and it is you probably need to install the XVid codec- it won't muck up your system if you're worried about that, just run the .exe file on the link above. Arniep 18:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

How are you sure that the Guardian & Yahoo are both wrong about Baron Cohen's mother? He does look a bit Iranian to me. Arniep 18:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Sacha's maternal grandfather's family: I spoke to my Aunt, Sacha's grandmother. Her husband's parents were both Eastern Europian, but he was born in Leipzig. It is her side of the family that has dark skin. The husband's side was very blond and light complexioned. 212.150.13.15 07:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Jack O'Lantern, Thank you for the help on the Anna Eshoo article. This really will help: (no ethnicity in header per WP:MOSBIO)PEACETalkAbout 23:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Please stop vandalizing Cohen article

Please stop vandalizing this article. You are not the grand arbitrator of what is and is and is not a reliable source. And Yahoo Biographies is quite reliable regardless of YOUR POV and baseless speculation. Besides Cohen's Persian background was reported on CNN as well as the G4 program "The Feed" Reverting. --Mehrhad123 Nov 11,2006

Jon Seda

Jack, you're right about the header thing. However, there sure are a lot of articles out there with headers that include African-American, Italian-American and so on and so forth. Take care. Tony the Marine 00:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Image tagging for Image:Jojorv.jpg

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Please stop vandalizing Baron Cohen article

You have made it clear that you are against putting Jewish Iranian in the ancestry section.

Unfortunately you cannot dispute news sources which are considered acceptable by residents of the United States - this constitutes POV which is against Wikipedia rules which I suggest you read.Mehrshad123 01:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I haven't edited the article in over a week! And the issue here is that whether certain sources are or are not reliable, and that information should not be included in the article because of it. It certainly isn't "vandalism". Anyway, Mad Jack 01:39, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Image:Llinney.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Llinney.jpg. I notice the 'image' page specifies that the image is being used under fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first fair use criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed image could reasonably be found or created. If you believe this image is not replaceable, please:

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Sorry

I accidentally reverted one of your edits on Michael Richards when removing linkspam. (→Netscott) 02:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, well there's was one of your edits between the spammer's so I thought yours would be canceled. Apparently Wikipedia's wiki allows for that. Cheers. (→Netscott) 02:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Image:Bsoomekh.jpg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Bsoomekh.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in its not being deleted. Thank you. —— User:ACupOfCoffee@ 06:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC) — User:ACupOfCoffee@ 06:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Jellybeans

You have been awarded these Jelly Beans from -The Doctor- Please, enjoy them.

Here are some Jelly beans for you. I love jelly beans as they have sugar in them and most people love sugar. But on the other hand just receiving somthing from somone else just makes you happy and also just giving this to you makes me happy. I hope to spread the jelly beans all over Wikipedia, so here, you can have this lot. Please enjoy them. (I like the lime ones.)

Editors need a bit of a sugar high too.

An apple a day keeps -The Doctor- away. Or does it! ^{(talk)(contribs)} 02:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Are You Jewish Jack O' Lantern?

You don't have to answer this, but I'm just wondering if your own ethnic-racial and/or religious heritage may be 'skewing' your edits in some respect? Please keep in mind that your own heritage or religion may not allow you to retain a truly "neutral point of view" (NPOV) in regard to certain articles dealing specifically with your heritage/religion or the people associated with it. --Pseudothyrum 01:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Sprouse Page

Hi there! I think its time to update the picture of Dylan and Cole Sprouse on their page. The current picture is outdated. They now have long hair. Please tell me what you think. Happy Thanksgiving! -- Switchfo0t813

Judy Garland

Hi Jack O' - You will remember there were various discussions on 'how Irish was Garland' I beleive that the result was there was enough evidence from a variety of sources to demonstrate that Irish American was the identity that she herself was most comfortable with - relating to this there is an interesting video of a press conference that she gave in 1964 and the interviewer asked her - 'You describe yourself as a tempermental Irish biddy' Garland corrected him and replied "no just an Irish Biddy" this clip is linked on the article.Vono 19:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Judaism

Without getting bogged down in a major debate, my family has known many Jewish people. The Jews that my parents met never said that they had "Jewish" ethnicity. Those people that Judaism was their religion, while they considered ethnicity to be a European heritage, or sometimes a North African heritage.

Jews, like Christians, Buddhists, or other religions, come from many ethnic or racial groups (which is true, there are over two billion Christians, making it impossible for just one ethnic or racial to follow it), not an individual group. There is no such thing as "Christian descent," "Buddhist descent," or any other for that matter. No religion is a race: religion is man-made. That's not a biased view; it's common knowledge that religion is man-made.

Also, I have removed the ethnicity of the Michalka sisters for the moment.

Acalamari 16:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay MadJack (or Jack O'Lantern), I accept that this is Wikipedia, which does everything to tell the truth. However, based on your response, my Jewish friends will be "really happy" to know that they are all a bunch of jokers who don't know what they're talking about. Acalamari 18:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey

Do I know you? Do you play City of Heroes?

Myelin Sheeth 03:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity in header

I notice that in Sam Levene you removed the actor's ethnicity from the header. Is there a rule against putting ethnicity in the header. I hope so, as I think it is annoying to see, for example, Cagney referred to as an "Irish American" actor. --Mantanmoreland 03:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that's what I was hoping.--Mantanmoreland 04:41, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Anyway

Myelin Sheeth 03:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Peter Parker

Jack

Clearly, Rabbi Weinstein's speculations aren't evidence. However, if Patti Cochran says Peter Parker is Jewish, that is good evidence. I'm in two minds whether the site passes WP:RS, but on balance I think it does so will have no objection if you restore Spiderman. Cheers!--Brownlee 12:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry

Hello MadJack/Jack O'Lantern,

I wanted to say sorry for the "Jewish Ethnicity Misunderstanding." My knowledge was wrong. I hope you weren't offended at all. If you are Jewish, sorry. As I said, I was brought up to believe that religion was a choice, that was all. Acalamari 00:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Poles, Polish Americans, Polish Jews

Hi. I'm not sure if you're a frequent editor of List of Polish-Americans, but I need some help explaining why we shouldn't be adding Polish-Americans to List of Poles and Polish-Jewish-Americans to List of Polish Jews. There seems to be this idea that one can define what a list includes arbitrarily. Thanks for any help. Respond if you can on TALK:List of Polish Jews though you don't have to. 141.213.210.40 18:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Samuel L. Jackson

I have been working on this article a lot recently and have put it up for Good Article status but keep getting shot down for problems. I see that you have worked on several articles moved to Good Article status, and I could use some help with the article. I've added the necessary citations, fair use rationales, and then now, am having problems with wittling down information about his recent and upcoming films. Please stop by or give me advice if you can. Thanks in advance. --Nehrams2020 07:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Roger Lowenstein

FYI, since we seem to share the same distaste for overlabeling of ethnicity, note my edits in this article today. Mr. Lowenstein may very well be Jewish or he may not be. --Mantanmoreland 16:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I removed it. That kind of thing annoys me. But you are right, such categories definitely belongs on bios of people who have identified themselves as such, like Allen.--Mantanmoreland 14:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Bynes' relationships

Actually, all of that part of the Amanda Bynes article you just removed was verified by AmandaBynesNOW!.com (and magazines mentioned & cited therein), which unfortunately is offline for the time being. I understand your skepticism, though. Quite frankly, I don't think such trivially short past relationships are even encyclopedic anyway. CaptHayfever 01:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Beck, Downey Jr.

Hi Jack. Any sources that refer to Downey Jr. or Beck as Jewish are likely to be those Jewish-fan-sites that call everyone who has a Jewish ancestor "Jewish" without caring much about how the person identifies or the true extent of the ancestry. Those sites are about as reliable as any other website that's motivated by such aims. Here's an Irish-fan-site calling Downey an "Irish-American" [13] though it appears to only be 1/4th of his true ancestry. There are millions of such pages, and using them as a basis for categorizing someone is insane.

If Beck is being interviewed by a Jewish magazine which does nothing but talk about the Jewish ancestry he adopts from his mother, clearly hes going to say "I'm Jewish and ____" - whatever else he is. This isn't the same thing as Beck being asked on the street: what are you? And him responding "I'm Jewish."

There is a limit established of when a personality's ancestry has any relevance. Ofcourse, we have users floating around who'd like to think of "enter celebrity here" as an Irish actor, or a Jewish actor, or French actor, but that doesn't make it true.

I always thought it was over-doing it with these celebrity article to go so deep into their family's background. It's really just stuff for "fanboys," and seems ultimately silly. But, I wouldn't really think of deleting any of this information because ....well it is cool trivia in a way. However, when we get to categorizing these people based on that ancestry, it goes overboard. If Downey Jr. and Beck were half Jewish, I would be inclined to agree that, ok, they are Jewish Americans. However, any less than that and we open up a can full of opportunities for everyone to jump on the bandwagon and demand categorizations of every pint of blood we can find. "His great-great grandfather was an Inuit? Quick! Put him on list of eskimos and any eskimo categories (if we even have those)!" 141.213.212.16 07:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, the only source I can find of Downey referring to himself as "Jewish" is one where he says he's "half Jewish." We have a Half-Jewish American actors category? 141.213.212.16 07:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

If we can find the true extent of a person's ancestry, like we did with Beck, then there's no reason to pretend like we don't know the true ancestry when some fan-site says "Beck is Jewish." Do you disagree with this? If so, why? 141.213.212.16 07:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Downey is married to a Jewish woman, so it is more likely that he now identifies with whatever Jewish ancestry he has. If he says he's Jewish, then ok, but I definitely wouldn't be taking all the buzz of Beck seriously, especially when his Jewish descent is even more distant than Downey's. 141.213.212.16 08:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing that prevents us from coming to a consensus on what type of standard to use for categorizations. NOT being in a category does not deny that the personality has that ancestry. From what I've seen, it's been 50% that qualifies a category, and I don't think there's been much of a problem with this. In the article itself, we can write whatever is found in a source -- the whole ancestry etc.. Furthermore, the interview with Beck is from a Jewish magazine, JVIBE, and the sole topic of discussion is Beck being Jewish. What can we expect him to be talking about? Jewish Chronicle does the same thing. If it was a Swedish magazine, I guarantee Beck will end up talking about the distant Swedish ancestry he has. All of this shouldn't merit categorizations if his true background is known. 141.213.212.16 08:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

A Category does not determine who is what completely. Lacking a category does not deny a person that heritage. Categories can be assigned by consensus, just as listings can be, because even if that person isn't on the list or isn't in the category, doesn't mean he or she isn't what the category or list includes. We hold third opinions and come to consensus for a reason, because the beauty of wikipedia is that eventually through much discussion a reasonable and healthy conclusion emerges. There is no discussion on whether Downey is Jewish ....we know he is to an extent... but there is discussion on whether a category would suit him.

Halakh Law designates that a person TRADITIONALLY adopts the Jewish religion if that person's mother is Jewish. At the time Beck was born, his mother was not a Jew (religiously). Therefore, he is not Jewish through Jewish Law. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it. Genes are not directed by a man-made Law. 141.213.212.16 08:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think my overall point is that nothing hold us to categorizing people in this manner. Naturally, if a reliable source says Robert Downey Jr is Jewish, then in his article we can put that information. If Downey himself said so, which he did, then we can put that in the article too, along with his true extent. But adding him to the category is in a way under our disgression, because keeping him out is not an argument against what qualifies as Jewish in real life. That argument would be original research. 141.213.212.16 08:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this discussion is worthless or pointless at all. This standard you go by is in no way used by everyone on wikipedia, not even all the experienced users.

"Wikipedia is not an institution that reaches its own independent conclusions on which people are or not "X". We can only report what the sources said."

That's been well-established. After you presented me with a source that says Downey Jr. called himself Jewish, its a differ story, since in this sense he would be a cultural Jew. Nobody is denying Beck as part ethnically Jewish. We're not forming a conclusion on that. We're not forming a conclusion on whether he is a Jew by Law either because the Laws are irrelevant.

"Sure, not putting someone in a category doesn't mean they aren't it, but using that argument I could delete everyone from "Jewish-American actors" who I personally don't consider Jewish."

No you couldn't, because there would be no general consensus for that on the article. If there was, which there would never be, then so be it. A person not being listed as a Jew doesn't change what their article says about them.

"If we have a category, a person can't be kept out of it when there's a source that says they match the category's name."

Where does it state that on wikipedian policy? I don't wish to argue with you but it's if you actually expect there to never be discussion over a biographical note on a person, you're expecting something that will never happen as long as wikipedia exists. 141.213.212.16 08:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Image:Aviatbaldwin.jpg

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