Talk:Zeng Laishun

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Crisco 1492 talk 17:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

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Zeng, c. 1880s

• ... that Zeng Laishun (pictured) was the first Chinese person to attend college in the United States?

• Source: Rhoads, Edward J. M. (2011) Stepping Forth into the World: The Chinese Educational Mission to the United States, 1872–81. Pg. 3

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Checheyigen

Moved to mainspace by Generalissima (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 87 past nominations.

Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 21:33, 28 October 2024 (UTC).

• I didn't know he was the first - this is definitely cool and DYK worthy! Blervis (talk) 04:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
  • @Blervis: If this is a review, make sure to follow the steps at Wikipedia:Did you know/Reviewer instructions; check the source (if possible), and make sure the article fits the DYK criteria. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 04:56, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment to the reviewer: given that this is a "first" hook, and a pretty exceptional one at that, please be sure to check if the sources adequately support the claim, and see if counterexamples can be found. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:14, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: Since Blervis looks like a pretty new reviewer, and this is a hook with higher sourcing standards than usual, should I put this up for second opinion? I think that might be a good idea. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 04:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

We can have a second opinion from an experienced editor, who at the same time could try teaching Blervis the ropes. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:36, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 05:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• Thinking about it, given how exceptional the claim is and how difficult it seems to verify it and ensure it isn't inaccurate, I would suggest proposing different angles. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:27, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

This article is long enough and new enough (moved to mainspace on the day of nomination, and subsequently promoted to GA). It is well sourced, neutral and with no copyvio problems. The image file is in the public domain (original ca. 1880s). The hook is very sourced: Rhoades (2011, p3) says 'Though not well known, Zeng Laishun was the first Chinese to attend an American college', and had previously reported this in an article 2005, where he presented the evidence for this statement. The hook stands up as it is, and works well. It is properly sourced in the article too. Good to go! Chaiten1 (talk) 15:13, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Generalissima, per WP:DYKDEFINITE, are there any more sources that certify the hook fact, or is it just the one author? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I'll just switch the hook; it's one of those situations where no one else contradicts Rhoads on this, but I can only find Rhoads or people citing him saying it directly. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 17:42, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

ALT1: ...that Qing dynasty official Zeng Laishun (pictured) attended the second inauguration of Ulysses S. Grant?

Rhoads, Edward J. M. (2005). "In The Shadow Of Yung Wing: Zeng Laishun and the Chinese Educational Mission to the United States". Pacific Historical Review. 74 (1): 19–58. doi:10.1525/phr.2005.74.1.19. JSTOR 10.1525/phr.2005.74.1.19. (pp. 40–42)

Chaiten1, can you review the new hook? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:19, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

ALT1 looks good to me. The hook is interesting, and the cited source checks out. The hook is in the article, and cited appropriately. In Rhodes article, the fact of Zeng's attendance is based on two contemporary newspaper reports - so it is verified. Chaiten1 (talk) 21:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Zeng Laishun/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Generalissima (talk · contribs) 06:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 03:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Comments

• ...from eastern Guangdong... Specify that Guangdong is in southern China.
  • Fixed. - G
• Both worked as vegetable farmers... Who? (In the previous sentence Zeng is mentioned.)
  • Fixed. - G
• ...mostly of Chinese-Malay ancestry Do we know why?
• They were forbidden from speaking Malay... Do we know why?
  • Sadly doesn't say for either of these. -G
• After Zeng's departure, church records reported only five Chinese Christians in Singapore. Is this necessary? If yes, consider mentioning it in a footnote after his departure for the US is mentioned in the following section.)
  • I think it's good context, but moved. - G
• ....previously stationed in Guangzhou... Specify that Guangdong is in southern China.
  • Added. - G

• • I did not find.

• He instead returned to China with Williams and his wife... Perhaps "William's wife"?
  • Fixed. - G
• ...aboard the Samuel Russell... Delete.
  • Fixed. - G
• Zeng arrived in Hong Kong... Specify Hong Kong's position in this time.
  • Fixed. - G
• Delink Guangzhou and Thomas Hanbury when they are mentioned for the second time.
  • Guangzhou is only linked once in the lede and once in the body; delinked Hanbury's second apperance though.

• • I delinked the third mention of Guangzhou.

• Introduce (shortly) J. Dryer Ball.
  • Fixed (and realized I had made a typo of his name).
• He was enrolled in Chinese study for two years. Consider mentiong here that he became familiar with a range of Chinese dialects and languages (which is mentioned in section Chinese Educational Mission), or alternatively in that section the relevant sentence could be modified: " In addition to his knowledge of English, Zeng was had become familiar with a range of Chinese dialects and languages across the coast of south China..."
  • Fixed, ty. - G
• At Ningbo... Is this necessary? If yes, specialise that it is in eastern China.
  • Fixed. - G
• She was described by an 1850 report as "Indo-Chinese" heritage Not "as of "Indo-Chinese" heritage"?
• , with partial Chinese ancestry Delete (this is what "Indo-Chinese" heritage implies).
  • Fixed these. - G
• A link to Union Church? If link does not exist, introduce it.
  • Added. - G
• ...a girl's missionary school... Why not "girls' missionary school"?
  • Fixed. - G
• Zeng briefly moved to Bangkok in 1857 for business purposes. Consider mentioning that Bangkok is in Thailand, or that he left China for Bangkok.
  • Fixed. - G

• In August 1856, Zeng was introduced to fellow convert Yung Wing, who had also attended college in the United States. Alongside two other missionaries, they boated up the Yangtze in the autumn of 1860 to visit Tianjing (renamed from Nanjing during the rebellion), the capital of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. They met with Shield King Hong Rengan in an attempt to ascertain the beliefs of the Taiping rebels and their likelihood of success. After a two month journey, they returned to Shanghai unimpressed with the movement. Quite out of context without further details on the rebellion, the kingdom and the king.
• Introduce Zuo Zongtang, Zeng Guofan, Li Hongzhang, Samuel Wells Williams, Li Hongzhang.
• ...was granted the courtesy name... By whom?
• ...the two came up... Who?
  • Clarified. - G
• Introduce the Zongli Yamen.
  • Added. - G
• ... aboard the Pacific Mail steamer Costa Rica... After brief stops in Nagasaki and Kobe, they arrived in Yokohama, and transferred to the larger SS Great Republic ... lodging at the Occidental Hotel, ... aboard the SS Java Delete.
• Zeng himself reconnected with his former teachers; he wrote to his former teachers Ira Tracy, Joseph Travelli, and Edward North,... Rephrase for simplification.
  • Fixed. - G
• Following the 1842 Treaty of Nanking... Perhaps "Following the 1842 Treaty of Nanking closing the Second Opium War, ..."?
  • Fixed. - G
• Link Tongzhi Emperor.
  • Linked. - G
• Be consistent when mentioning short numbers: "7 other Chinese and western dignitaries" and "12 students" vs "ten days".
  • Fixed. - G
• ...by both the Cuban colonial government... Both? A link to Cuban colonial government?
  • Sadly a red-link at the moment, but linked. - G

• • I created a redirect page. Borsoka (talk) 01:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Borsoka (talk) 04:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• ...was a Chinese interpreter, businessman, and educator. Chinese? (His mother was Malay, and he was born in Singapure.)
  • I figured that since I explain his family background and birthplace in the next sentence, Chinese is okay considering he spent most of his life and career in China and he worked for the Chinese government.
• In 1866, Zeng was hired as an English instructor... By whom? (The lede does not make it clear that he taught in China.)
  • Clarified. - G
• Introduce Chen Lanbin in the lede.
  • Clarified. - G
• ...his colleague Yung Wing... Whose?
  • Clarified. - G
• "Chief Private English Secretary" (lede) or Chief Private English Secretary (main text)? Borsoka (talk) 02:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Fixed. - G

Image review

• File:Zeng Laishun, c. 1880s (cropped).jpg: US PD tag is needed.
  • Added. - G
• File:Hamilton College engraving 1847.jpg: US PD tag is needed.
  • Added. - G
• File:Yung Wing Harper's Weekly sketch 1878.tif: I think a PD tag is needed (for countries other than the USA) Borsoka (talk)
  • Nah cause it was published in the US. - G

Source review Please double check all references because I think:

• Reference 9 does not verify the statements starting with At Hamilton, Zeng studied the....
• Reference 17 does not verify the statements starting with In August 1856, Zeng was introduced to fellow convert.... Borsoka (talk)
  • @Borsoka: Fixed the reference 9 issue, I can't tell what's wrong with 17? Seems like everything checks out there to me. 17:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
    • I cannot check it now because access to this article was closed at JSTOR. I trust your words because otherwise the article is exemplarily cited. I think there is only one pending issue to be addressed: the paragraph about the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, Shield King Hong Rengan and a mystic rebellion is absolutely unclear. Borsoka (talk) 01:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

      @Borsoka: Apologies, forgot about this! Rewrote the taiping section. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 04:24, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

      • All my concerns are addressed. Thank you for this thoroughly researched, exceptionally well written, interesting article. Borsoka (talk) 02:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Comment

Decent and interesting page. I copyedited a bit and added some notes. I didn't add a template for it but I'd also suggest rewriting the Family section to briefly introduce the various children instead of throwing their occupations in the mix, as you did with Annie and Lena. Willie, for instance, is mentioned once in the prior section ("... and took his son Willie to visit Hamilton College...") and then thrown into the Family section ("Willie served as an interpreter for the United States consular court in Shanghai."), which can be rather confusing. There's also an abundance of semicolons, a number of which could be replaced by other punctuation to make the sentences flow smoother. Good job overall ! 2A0D:6FC7:510:9975:578:5634:1232:5476 (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2024 (UTC)