Talk:Tzath I of Lazica

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Tzath's successor

Cyril Toumanoff's list of the rulers of Colchis places Gubazes II just after Tzath I. The assumption is rather tentative, I guess, but that's what this source says. Cyrille Toumanoff, Manuel de généalogie et de chronologie pour le Caucase chrétien (Arménie, Géorgie, Albanie), Rome, Édition Aquila, 1976, p. 548-549. --Kober^Talk 21:33, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, it probably is tentative, but still... Can you give me the direct reference, i.e. the way it is mentioned, does Toumanoff merely list Gubazes after Tzath or does he explicitly imply that he succeeded immediately after him? What regnal dates does he give? Also, please give me a few days to check up with my own sources. Constantine ✍ 21:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, I don't have that book at hand right now. French Wikipedia cites Toumanoff for its list of Colchian rulers. I would agree my addition was a bit premature, but it is still worthy to be considered once checked up. Regarding Opsites, I do remember Toumanoff published a separate article on him, but currently I have no access to it either. As far as I remember he was not a ruler of Lazica, but only a portion thereof, namely Abasgia.--Kober^Talk 21:59, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All right, I'll take your word for it :). Just let me see what others have to say before re-adding it just to be sure... Constantine ✍ 22:09, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just found Toumanoff's article on Opsites ("How Many Kings Named Opsites?") in A Tribute to John Insley Coddington on the occasion of the fortieth anniversary of the American Society of Genealogists, p. 78 (Association for the Promotion of Scholarship in Genealogy, 1980), which is found on Google Books as a "snippet view" book. On p. 82, Toumanoff gives what he describes as "an improved version" of his genealogical table of the kings of Lazica from the 1976 Manuel de généalogie. Using these "snips" ([1], [2], [3], [4]) I reconstructed the stemma as follows:

All right, I checked the PLRE (and a few other works, but no other recent source seems to have studied the problem), and it does not comment upon Toumanoff's view at all. It merely reproduces the text of Procopius, where the name occurs twice: one the uncle and former king, and another the prefect of eastern Abasgia in 550. Now, the two may well be the same person, but even in this case, given that Procopius is a rather careful and reliable source, it would mean that this Opsites was indeed "king of the Lazi" at some point, and that most probably before Gubazes. From what I have seen, the traditional view in older works is that Gubazes was indeed Tzath's son. I agree to restore the succession as you initially had it (with the question marks), provided we also add to the article an explanation that this represents a tentative reconstruction, and a mention of Opsites as a possible king between the two... Constantine ✍ 08:55, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good point. It would also be great if we could find some direct references to Opsites from Procopius.--Kober^Talk 04:58, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I think I've found it. :) --Kober^Talk 05:02, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]