Talk:South Slavic languages

Inaccurate map

The first map shown in the Southeast Slavic Languages paragraph is completely false and I think this needs to be addressed. Lmagoutas (talk) 14:30, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

@Lmagoutas care to elaborate details and help fix it? -Vipz (talk) 15:57, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

It shows almost the entire region of Florina and Northern pella of Greece as majority Slavic speakers which is completely unfounded. Lmagoutas (talk) 17:17, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree that it is inaccurate from a present-day perspective, but this can be elaborated on in the map itself. VMORO

As also stated by me in the revert: The user who created the map should look into marking the map on the territories of Greece, Turkey and Romania with dots, to indicate historical or scattered distribution. For example, Banat Bulgarian is actually spoken by a handful of villages covering an enormous territory. I will also note this on the talk page. VMORO

@VMORO: this old discussion was about a different map (the one in South Slavic languages#Southeast Slavic languages); please start a new section for the currently disputed one in the infobox. Also, sign your comments with four tildes ~~~~ so that they have timestamps and people can reply to them more easily. Thank you. –Vipz (talk) 12:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip about the four tildes. VMORO 13:13, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

VMORO firstly I'd like to preface WP:AGF and WP:NATIONALIST (see "Anti-nationalist" section). I have no where, absolutly no where mentioned any other map, you are putting words in my mouth. It's a fact that Macedonian and Bulgarian have vastly different dialectal classifications, even disregarding dialects outside of N.Macedonia.

The source listed by the creator of the map for Macedonian and Bulgarian is a map by the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences - which also maintains a fringe-POV view that the internationally-recognized Macedonian language, recogonized by effectivly all foreign sources, does not exist i.e is a "language norm" of Bulgarian.

Judging by your comment here and here, we can agree that this map is inaccurate. Hence it should be removed, until it is corrected, which also includes my concerns above. Best regards. Kluche (talk) 12:46, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Macedonian dialects

Wonderfully, then would you please take down the POV map of the Macedonian Academy that presents all Slavic dialects on the territory of the geographic region of Macedonia as dialects of the Macedonian language from all pages where it is posted? For the map, see below. This is a clear violation of the NPOV rules as practically no international source since Friedman considers them Macedonian. As you can see, Bulgarian maps of the Bulgarian dialects cover only Bulgarian territory. The map should be corrected to include only the territory of the Republic of Macedonia as well as Slavic dialects in Greece that have indisputably been classified as Macedonian. Right? Thanks. VMORO VMORO 13:13, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

I'll like to preface (not implicate) with WP:PASSIVE.

To me this resembles WP:OTHERCONTENT. Furthermore the map you've linked is created by a reputable member of the community and almost exclusivly sourced by foreign-language (i.e not Macedonian, BCSM or Bulgarian) sources. Best regards. Kluche (talk) 13:17, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, it does not correspond to reality, nor to modern opinion. I can make a map that is exclusively sourced by foreign-language material from the early 20th century - and from entirely reputable sources - that represents all dialects in Macedonia as Bulgarian. Would you agree to that? As for the reputability, please :). VMORO 13:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Opinions evolve, wouldn't you agree? And would you stop quoting several Wikipedia policies in every post you make? I don't want to be uncivil, but it seems like you use Wikipedia policies as a shield - which certainly must be an infraction of one of Wikipedia's policies itself :) VMORO 13:35, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Opinions do evolve, and it is the current academic opinion that Macedonian is a language of it's own, with a different classification from the one portrayed in the current version of the map.

I am not sheilding myself or anyone elss with the quotation of Wikipedia policies - I am making you, and other readers aware of the current discussion and it's compliance with said policies. Kluche (talk) 14:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

This is exactly what you are doing. There is not a single argument you have made that is to the point or resembles something like a normal discussion between two people - perhaps from opposite sides - but who want to reach consensus and agreement. No one else writes in this way, and there is a reason for that - they want to reach consensus, whereas you want to push your nationlist agenda by using Wikipedia policies as a shield. VMORO 14:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

VMORO this whole thing is not about this map. The dispute in this talkpage is not about the map which you have presented. I am citing Wikipedia policies in guidelines as it is the reccomeneded thing for talking points to be backed up i.e comply with said policies and guidelines, per WP:TALK. Kluche (talk) 14:42, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

No, you are citing Wikipedia policies to muddy the water and confuse people. And damn I am gonna find what rule you are breaking by doing this. As for the dispute in question, it is me who has suggested a practical resolution to the dispute (see below). You, on the other hand, as well as all your tag team mates from North Macedonia, have not said a single word and not left a single comment. Why is that, you think? I can see a clear pattern of Wikipedia:Disruptive editing and Refusal to Get to the Point. These were subject to Uw-disruptive2 and ANI notices, as per Wikipedia policies, right? VMORO 14:59, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

VMORO you have continuously been accusing me of being a nationalist, and I view that quite counter-productive, as well as probably violating WP:NATIONALIST (as I've previously pointed out). You've also accused me of tag teaming, which is again completly false and counter-productive. As for "refusing to get to the point" - you quite literally went with WP:OTHERCONTENT. As we've been rapidly going back and forth in this discussion, I haven't had the time to read your proposal properly. I've left a comment on it here. Kluche (talk) 17:23, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Again, the map is reputably sourced by RS, and the argument is generally resembeling WP:OTHERCONTENT. Furthermore, to my knowledge the map does not have the intention to portray the geographical distribution of the Macedonian language in the early 20th century. But again, this is off-topic or out of scope. Kluche (talk) 14:26, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

This is a nationalistic map that portrays the opinion of the MANU. The source is probably Victor Friedman or Horace Lunt, who have received funding from the Macedonian and Yugoslav government. The map does not portray the current opinion of international linguistics, which puts an emphasis on ethnic and linguistic identity. Nationalistic maps are POV and have no place on Wikipedia. VMORO 14:30, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Again, this discussion is off topic, as I've stated multiple times, backed up by Wikipedia policies. Regards. Kluche (talk) 14:35, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, "Wikipedia policies". Right. VMORO 14:36, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

And please stop nationalistic agenda concealed behind "Wikipedia policies".

VMORO 14:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

VMORO, please read up on WP:ACCUSE Gurther (talk) 18:29, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Negotiations with the Map-Maker!

I have taken the liberty to put the talk with.... what was your name again, map genius... in a new section, and to colour my comments in a different colour. I am as blind as a bat and it helps me orient. But if you have anything against that, do let me know. VMORO 16:39, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I'm so sorry that I sparked such a big debate and I deeply apologize if I offended anyone. I know the least about Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects. I chose this map as the base because it was the most detailed map I could find on the Internet, and I can't read Cyrillic, so I did not bother checking the details. I also searched for maps of "Macedonian dialects", but I found maps like this and this, which looked to me to be just outtakes of the map I took for my source. Now I have made an edit before noticing these comments, and now I guess it is still wrong…

No, you should not apologise, th map was great, but because of nationalim, we need to tweak so that everyone is happy. VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Could you please provide pictures or links of the maps, by which you think it is the most appropriate to then draw the map? Or at least answer the following questions (names are referring to this map, which is currently the base for both Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects). Any comment from User:Kluche?

That is a difficult question, considering that Torlakian is generally defined as a Serbian set of dialects. This would make the Macedonian and Bulgarian ones also Serbian ones, and I do not exect anyone to be happy about that. I think that you can keep the colours and territories the same, shading from a hue that is more transitional to Bul/Mac then to true Torlak dialects (Timok-Luznica) and then to Prizren-Timok that should shade into the neighbouring Serbian Kosovo-Resava. Yet, if you can manage at the same to keep all three within a common group of dialects, that will be wonderful. I think you have practically done that.VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Is the whole area of what is marked as крайни северозападни говори also Torlakian? Should I include горански говор as Torlakian? Should that enclave in Bulgaria on this map also be pictured as Torlakian (around Valchedram; there were no signs of it on this map I used)

Gorani should be included in the Bulgaro-Macedonian group, as this is where it is placed. But again - input from User:Kluche? I believe the three-way dychotomy works fine. All transitional Dialects in BG and NM shade towards the neighbouring BG/NM dialects.

I have seen Valchedram only in a couple of isoglosses, so you'd better leave it out. VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Should Torlakian be classified by Bulgarian or Serbian classification? And I guess only those exclaves in this map should be marked as Torlakian in Kosovo…

In order not to start another Balkan War, please classidy Torlak as in between, but slightly more on the Serbian side. Do I make sense? I feel half crazy when I say all this. Basically, because it is spoken by Serbs, then it is a Serbian dialect. However, because it has clear characteristic of Eastern Balkan Slavic, it is considered transitional between Western and Eastrn. Did I make any sense at all? VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Should the border between Macedonian and Bulgarian follow the border exactly or go along those borders that are already marked/those that will be present on the provided maps?

Which borders are marked? Go along the state border as defined by sociolinguists. VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Are the dialects in "eastern part of Greek Macedonia" referring to the eastern dialects marked in red on the original map? Because I never had the intention of classifying those as western nor as Macedonian.

Yup.VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I would like to keep the map as straightforward as possible, so I would like to diplomatically avoid the transitional nature of some dialects by not running the text over them and painting them of some transitional color. It may be detailed on the Wikimedia page (I am planning to make a legend). Note that most readers probably would not be that educated about dialectology, the relationship between the languages or the features of those dialects. Is that OK with you?

The only place where this is of importance is the Torlak dialects (as they are transitional between Eastern and Western Slavic) VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

For the same reason I am not a fan of making dotted lines for parts where the minority speaks a Slavic language. It would take a lot more research to figure out in which parts it is actually the minority and then we also have minorities of speakers of one Slavic language in the territory when another Slavic language is spoken by the majority and I believe it would only make the map messier. If I included any parts that languages are not spoken anymore, then please point that out.

I can provide you with ethnic maps of Bulgaria, North Macedonia, Serbia, Kosovo and Montenegro. Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia are N/A here. However, if you feel that this will burden too much, we leave it as is.

Could you provide me also the maps of Bulgarian (or any other language in the continuum if it's missing) spoken in other countries? I have read about it being spoken in more areas in Romania, Turkey, Moldavia and Ukraine, but I never found detailed maps, nor the sub-classification of them as which dialect/dialect group they belong to.

You can use these two, even though it says they are from the last century (https://www.quora.com/Why-do-many-Bulgarians-live-in-Southern-Moldova-and-Eastern-Romania and https://www.pinterest.com/pin/32299322319560120/). Or this one - but if you disregard all splodges in Wallachia, North Dobrudja and the enormous splodge in Banat. As for classificafication, I am linguisit, but I am getting lost there. The easiest approach would be to call them transitional between Moesian and Balkan.

This is the latest map from Serbia (see below:). As the border between Sb and Bg is getting very jagged, you can use theb pre-1919 border. And they are on the Bulgarian side of Torlak.

Serbian languages

In Romania, realistically, there is only one village, Dudeștii Vechi, that speaks Bulgarian at the moment. I think you could perhaps enalrge the area to make it more noticeable, but I question the need to add several dots for villages with 10% Bulgarians.

In Turkey, hmm.... Well, either use dotted map for past distribution or one of these for present (https://www.facebook.com/bulgariamaps/photos/a.114459070454122/164809755419053/)> However, I don't believe the language is well-preserved, whatever the Turkish authorities say, and since Pomaks in Turkey are from everywhere, there is no way to mark dialects.

However, In Greece, for the Pomak areas, use Rhodopean dialects (the last map should work out).

The Christian Slavic dialects will be another major problem. This is a map that I personally trust: (https://i.redd.it/qyicrwy2ci121.png). Only dark red signifies use of language, the rest are hellenified former Patriarchists with passive knowledge of the language. However, the in area of Florina, it goes a bit over the top. Again User:Kluche, opinions?

But please do reduce the area of Bulgarian in Asia Minor and west of Constantioniple a bit (quite a bit actually). It is a bit too much to claim so much terriritory for around 20 villages each. VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

This map also excluded some islands on the Danube. As far as I know, they are uninhabited and part of Bulgaria. Is it OK if I fill them in because now it looks a bit weird…

Go for it. VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Also, when all this is sorted out, I would be delighted if the speakers of other languages would be willing to translate all those terms into their language, so I can make the same map in other languages.

Not sure what you mean here, but I would absolulely do my best to help you :). VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I will be open to all your suggestions. Garygo golob (talk) 18:03, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I have one specific suggestion, and it is regarding the Balkan dialects. The Sub-Balkan ones practically appear as Moesian. If you cannot identify a separate shade, you can marked them down as "Balkan" with a clear conscience. The difference between them and the internal differences between any other subgroups are practically negligible. (Trust me, I'v studied it). You can also add the Varna sub-dialect to them, as I don't know how you will manage a mixed Thracian/Balkan/Moeasian. And Balkan has gained accendence there long ago.

I also have a suggestion regarding the Moesian dialects, as they have pretty much disappeared under the influence of the Balkan ones. For example, look at an older take at dialectal division (including only dialects spoken in Bulgaria):

Bulgarian dialects

Do you see that the northwesternmost part of Bulgaria is identified as Balkan? This is part of a methodological issue, as the older map also included newer settlements, where the new map (that you used) has exclusively used settlements that have not changed their population in 200 years or so. And such settlements in northeastern Bulgaria are simply missing. I leave it to you to decide what you are going to use. For northeastern Bulgaria, I would personally recommend the older map. (but no mixed areas in Burgas, Targovishte , if we start counding mixed area at the moment, the whole country will be mixed. So, I am sorry for going full logoreia on you, but I am really happy that you wil take on the redesign of the map. Thanks a lot!!!! VMORO 16:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

@VMORO: I feel like you've complicated this discussion by replying section-by-section... –Vipz (talk) 16:46, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

This is only because it is way easier for me, honestly. And since we are trying to make the same edits at the moment, I will just let you be, organise and reorganise, okay? VMORO 16:50, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Garygo golob, nobody but me seems to have any desire to comment, so you can go ahead — at your own leisure and naturally. The only thing I can remember from the North Macedonian side is the insistence that their dialects be divided according to their own classification — and that should be Northern (which coincide with Bulgaro-Macedonian Torlak), Western and Southern/Eastern. If someone wants to correct me, pls do. VMORO 22:05, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

@Garygo golob, @VMORO, @Kluche: are we looking forward to any progress regarding this? It's been almost two months since the above message. –Vipz (talk) 11:04, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

@VMORO, Kluche, and Vipz: I have updated the map. If there are any additional issues, please list them below. Garygo golob (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the very, very, very late reply, I have been taking a bit of a leave from Wikipedia. The map is wonderful and the best thing that can be done with so many disgruntled, nationalistic POVs. Please post it everywhere, if not, I will do it myself later.

VMORO 14:23, 10 October 2023 (UTC)