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RfC: BFDI inclusion in Filmography section

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was include with secondary sourcing (EDIT: or with ABOUTSELF sources if reliable secondary sources cannot be found) per unanimous consensus. ToThAc (talk) 01:52, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Should this article's Filmography section include the web series Battle for Dream Island? Ithinkiplaygames (talk) 19:32, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Additional thoughts: It seems like the exclusion of BFDI from this article's Filmography section has attracted a lot of attention from people who are unfamiliar with the existing standards and policies of Wikipedia—in particular, BFDI fans who already feel that Wikipedia has a substantial bias against the series itself due to the lack of a BFDI article, per the reasons laid out in WP:BFDI. However, I think the question of whether or not to include the series is of legitimate merit, because this is a case where the reasoning of WP:BFDI is not fully sufficient. Even if the series itself has not received enough coverage from reliable secondary sources to merit an entire article, I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that it can still be listed briefly on the articles of the people who worked on it. For example, lots of musicians have albums listed in their "Discography" sections that are themselves too obscure for their own articles.

I'm genuinely on the fence, and I think an RfC will be a good way to stimulate productive discussion on sourcing and make people feel heard about this issue. Ithinkiplaygames (talk) 19:42, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

We have had this discussion a few times before regarding this very subject actually, specifically on the pages for Kevin MacLeod and TomSka. In the case of the latter however, there still seems to be some dispute over whether or not the sources provided are suitable enough to merit its mention on the page, as the only sources available are his credit within the show itself and Twitter/X posts from him confirming his involvement. It should be noted that, to my knowledge, there still isn't any definitive claim from Rosie herself that she starred in a role for this particular episode like Tom has made, along with the fact that she's a far more prominent figure and therefor her page would be under more scrutiny. That is at least how I see it. 47.147.64.38 (talk) 20:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Include. Despite Wikipedia making a point to rely on secondary sources, they are merely preferred, not exclusive. Primary sources such as Rosie O'Donnell's post about Clay voicing Mirror on TikTok (And her added reply about voicing Spool herself) are allowed with caution, especially if an article is not built entirely around them. .weakepideoh (talk) 03:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it should, there is a clear bias against BFDI, there is no consensus on not mentioning BFDI on any page, so it should be added. Also, there is many things Rosie O'Donnell was in that is listed here that DON'T have their own wikipedia pages yet no one seems to complain about those. AmericanAccount704 (talk) 00:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Doing this is like banning making a page about Nashville because you had a bad experience. AmericanAccount704 (talk) 00:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Include only if it can be sourced by secondary sources. Skimming the discussion above, it seems like people are treating Battle for Dream Island (whatever that is) as forbidden as well as some sort of confusion between notability (which BFDI seems not to be) and noteworthiness, which only external secondary sources can determine. Content is not forbidden in Wikipedia as long as it is verifiable. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 01:31, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Include if it can be sourced by secondary sources per Tbhotch. I cannot better his comments. (Summoned by bot). Arguments above about whether WP is/is not biased against BFDI or web series in general are a bit of a waste of time and space. Content needs to be verifiable but whether or not R O'D appeared in this web series, is only tangentially connected to whether the series is notable enough to have an article. Pincrete (talk) 05:09, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Include. While BDFI has consensus on not being notable, that doesn't mean that appearances in them should not be mentioned. Example #1 in WP:FILMOGRAPHY has an unsourced credit to two non-bluelinked television shows. O'Donnell's page also has non-bluelinked entries in her filmography section. An extreme example of this would be Sean Chiplock, who has appeared in several very notable titles, along with several non-notable titles sourced to himself or the credits. As always, better sourcing gives stronger weight to inclusion. SWinxy (talk) 21:50, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Include. BDFI itself doesn't meet notability standards, however it would be best to list the appearance anyway. SpeedrunnerInTraining (talk) 22:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Include — the filmography would be incomplete otherwise. MultPod (talk) 14:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Include. Since Rosie has now confirmed her role in the episode on her TikTok[1] and, as has been mentioned before, non-notable work is often included on these pages if it can be proven that the respective person has indeed been in that work there is now no real reason not to include her credit for voice acting Spool. Obviously though it would be in a section for web series instead of being put in television like previous edits were doing. ZestySourBoy (talk) 04:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Include: A role is a role. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 21:23, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Include. I agree with many of the points mentioned before, mainly that while secondary sources are ideal, they are only preferred, not necessarily required. I am not sure if this helps but I also found a source that may count as a secondary source that applies to this and shows O'Donnell's connection with Battle for Dream Island. "According to O'Donnell, one of the shows Dakota has become enamored with is an animated web series called Battle for Dream Island. "It was a very big hit in 2009 on YouTube. So, imagine me as the mother in 2023 trying to find the T-shirts for her," O'Donnell lamented. "It's not easy!"".^[1] I am not sure if this article helps with this discussion but I figured I would include it in case it did.

Off-topic comment SmittenGalaxy \| talk! 23:55, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What’s the point of not including Battle for Dream Island on Wikipedia. It has enough notability to deserve one and certainly more than other Web Series (for this example: Eddsworld) 184.145.82.233 (talk) 03:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Include, it is listed on O'Donnell's IMDb page, which is a grey area for inclusion as WP:RS, but I'll take it based on notability. Pickalittletalkalittle (talk) 18:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Include. After a lot of thought, I've come to believe it can be included. Readers are our top priority, and a section titled "Filmography" without a verifiable credit would probably mislead them into thinking that the section lists all of them. I think there are some articles with "selected filmograpghy" sections, but the section on this article doesn't take that much space in proportion to the page to justify selecting. Rosie's post reliably confirms the credit, but it should probably be inserted into a new "Web series" sub-section or similar. ObserveOwl (talk) 10:51, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ https://www.etonline.com/rosie-odonnell-on-why-shes-happy-being-single-and-bonding-with-daughter-dakota-exclusive-205270

Include. A ~~reliable and secondary source~~ statement by Rosie herself has been provided (WP:ABOUTSELF people), so I don't see an issue with adding the info to the filmography. WP:BFDI still applies and we should not veer into fancruft territory with this. 💽 🌙Eclipse 💽 🌹 ⚧ (she/they) ^talk/edits 02:33, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rosie O' Donnel Edit Request

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I would like to add information to Rosie O'Donnel's career about her cameo appearance in the web show BFDI. TopHatHorizon (talk) 01:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 04:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Can Rosie's credit as Spool be added now?

It has been 16 days since the "RfC: BFDI inclusion in Filmography section" subject was created and there hasn't been any new takes or opinions for 4 days now. Every single person who has responded to this have agreed to include the credit, with a handful of those includes being include only if we have a non-BFDI source for her credit which we do indeed have.

Since everyone is in agreement that the credit should be added and we have a source that proves that this credit is true that is separate from BFDI itself would it be okay to add this credit now finally?

I will just add the credit if I don't see a response in a week. I don't want this thing stalling out and then being ignored. ZestySourBoy (talk) 05:50, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You should add the credit and citation immediately. I see no reason not to. MultPod (talk) 13:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion must be closed with someone determining the consensus before it's added. You can request a closure at Wikipedia:Closure requests. ObserveOwl (talk) 08:05, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also, there's no rush. ObserveOwl (talk) 09:18, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I'm still learning how Wikipedia works. I just really want to make sure that this whole Rosie-Spool situation isn't ignored and then forgotten about so that we can get that credit on her page, especially with the amount of work I've done trying to prove that the credit should be on that page. ZestySourBoy (talk) 12:16, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

While the Closure requests page is quite the mess and is hard to parse it appears that I may be able to just close it myself due to the fact that we've received plenty of responses on the subject and not a single one says to not include. I'm not sure though, there is this line on the page: "Do not list discussions where consensus is clear. If you feel the need to close them, do it yourself." and at least in my opinion the consensus is very clear: "Include with source".

Please tell me if I'm correct in thinking this because that page you linked is really messy and hard to understand. ZestySourBoy (talk) 12:13, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Closures should ideally be closed by an editor that didn't participate on the discussion. You have !voted to include it, so maybe it shouldn't be closed by you. There are two comments, by Tbhotch and Pincrete, saying that it can be included only with secondary sources, which doesn't apply to official social media posts, so the discussion might not be unanimous. ObserveOwl (talk) 14:27, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Where does that ref say she was on BFDI? All I see is that her daughter likes it, and per WP:PROPORTION, that doesn't seem to merit including. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:41, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's a bit hard to go through Rosie's social media accounts now that they are all currently unavailable, but there's this archived post that says "im super proud to present clays first professional voice over as mirror on #BFDI" on the description. The official jacknjellify account credits Clay as portraying Mirror and "Clay's mom" (Rosie) as Spool; maybe Rosie's post gives more credibility to jacknjellify's cast claims. ObserveOwl (talk) 15:26, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If Rosie O'Donnell's TikTok is what there is, definite fail per WP:SPS and WP:PROPORTION. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ABOUTSELF may apply, but WP:PROPORTION is fair. ObserveOwl (talk) 15:41, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Point on ABOUTSELF. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:48, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Point 1: "The material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim" (Rosie is actively putting focus on Clay and not herself, proof of it not being self serving, and it's not an exceptional claim due to Rosie's myriad of connections to BFDI)

Point 4: "There is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity" (It's a Wayback Machine archive of a TikTok description, it's definitely authentic and even if you didn't trust that searching for the video on Google still also pulls up that description)

Point 5: "The article is not based primarily on such sources" (It's a very brief mention in a list of credits in a filmography section table)

Also I don't think WP:PROPORTION applies whatsoever since this is only a very brief mention as a credit in a filmography section. The topic of that section of her page is "credits of things Rosie has been in" and her being Spool in BFDIA 17 is a credit of a thing she has been in, seems perfectly proportionate to me. ZestySourBoy (talk) 00:43, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In the comments of the referenced TikTok a commenter asks if Spool was her, to which Rosie responded saying that it was.

Annoyingly though, it seems like Rosie's TikTok account has been deleted...

Again though as I've stated in the past the vast majority of all other "Filmography" sections on Wikipedia do not have sources for a lot of the roles listed in them, and a lot of those roles are in pieces of media that don't have Wikipedia pages. So I don't see why Rosie in BFDI can't be credited. At the very least we have confirmed proof of Rosie's daughter Clay having worked on BFDI via the archived video description and the episode credits Clay by name (Clay O'Donnell) and it credits Rosie as "Clay's Mom" and Clay O'Donnell's mother is Rosie O'Donnell so yeah. Plus we have that news article of Rosie speaking about Clay being a fan of BFDI and prior to Rosie's TikTok being deleted there were countless TikTok's from Rosie about BFDI including one talking about making a BFDI documentary, another two about her going to one of the BFDI x II meetups, and two about a visit that Rosie and Clay did to the Jacknjellify house. Even if the TikTok's are gone the proof of all this still exists. Here is an archive of a Google search for "rosie odonnell bfdi" that shows three videos, two of which being about Rosie and Clay's dinner with the JnJ people and the other being Rosie asking people to email her information about BFDI so she can make a documentary.

In case you want more proof of Rosie's connection to BFDI that doesn't rely on her now dead TikTok. Here is a TikTok of a 3rd party confirming Rosie went to the 2023 BFDI x II Meetup, here is someone who works on BFDI mentioning Rosie's TikTok's about BFDI, and here is Clay O'Donnell's YouTube channel where the entire channel is covered in BFDI the channel description describes her love of BFDI the channel banner shows her with two of the official BFDI Four and X plushies, and both currently public videos have her wearing a BFDI hoodie.

Based on all of this it's more than believable that Rosie is in BFDI, and since sourcing and notability clearly isn't required on any other page on Wikipedia when it comes to listing filmographies this should be more then enough for her credit to be added. ZestySourBoy (talk) 00:26, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

why isn't the bfdi credit there

1. There is a request for comment above addressing your concerns (Rosie O'Donnell#RfC: BFDI inclusion in Filmography section)

2. Please, for the love of god, read the FAQ about this. We aren't evil authoritarian figures biased against BFDI, it's just not notable. 💽 🌙Eclipse 💽 🌹 ⚧ (she/they) ^talk/edits 16:46, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

seriously why every single one of the discussions about this end with that it should be there is no reason for it not to be other than Wikipedia being biased. there is a reliable secondary source for it so why seriously Radman the 12th (talk) 18:58, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Radman the 12th: There's an ongoing discussion above here. ObserveOwl (talk) 21:09, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

oh ok Radman the 12th (talk) 21:11, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] ttps://www.etonline.com/rosie-odonnell-on-why-shes-happy-being-single-and-bonding-with-daughter-dakota-exclusive-205270

[1]