Talk:North Africa/Archive 3

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Archive 3

Defining North Africa and adding relevant information

The creation of this discussion is directed at user @Ryanoo: who consistently reverted this article back to its former poorly sourced state over a mapping dispute. User @Ryanoo also said the information I added to the page (academic journals, published books and academic webpages) were “totally wrong” without countering my information with edits of equally verifiable sourcing.

The map I added was the orthographic map that is in common use throughout Wikipedia’s available languages. In dark green, the mao features Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco and the Western Sahara. In lime green (to signify the Sahel) Mauritania, Mali, Niger and Chad are featured. As the article formerly conceded before Ryanoo’s biased changes (cited a government website of the United States, an online dictionary) there are contentions around what defines North Africa.

I fail to see how a map that features the Sahel in a different colour with countries that are apart of the Maghreb (Mauritania) and were once apart of Egypt, sharing the same bio climatic aridity (Sudan) violates the statement.

In good faith, I added reasons why the Sahel were vital to how Arab geographers like Abdelrahman es Saadi, Ibn Khaldun, Ibn Battuta and 19th century explorers mapped the region as they did: trans-Saharan trade routes, Islam and Ottoman expansionism. Previous versions of the article will show that I did note a difference between North Africa and the Sahel. Additionally, I cited an academic journal to explain why North Africa is associated by some with West Asia. The article once said that it was “culturally” the same as well as other things without saying that “MENA/WANA” are geopolitical regions.

I am trying to facilitate a civil discussion about the content of this page so both myself and Ryanoo can move forward and that English proficient Wikipedia users can benefit from a well sourced article.

Edit:

I'm editing this page again because I am new to Wikipedia and didn't know I needed to sign the post and how to format my references.

References are the following:

Itaren (talk) 05:44, 3 November 2018 (UTC) Itaren (talk) 06:13, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Would editors please note that it is not wikipedia's role to define North Africa, but to report what reliable sources say. I don't believe there is one correct answer, and there is certainly no higher authority on the subject to turn to. -Roxy, in the middle. wooF 06:25, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you @Roxy the dog: ! In my defence, I added to the Wikipedia article what a reliable source had to say (An atlas of the Sahara-Sahel source) about the issue. I thought the quotation was vital to the article. User Ryanoo did not contribute in a way that was civil, reliable or verifiable to the article. This isn't meant to be a jab at them, but, is simply what my impression was during our disagreement over the page. Not everyone you disagree with is a sockpuppet! Itaren (talk) 06:13, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

@Itaren First of all, you didn't include any sources which shows that Sahel African countries are part of North Africa and your sources has nothing at all to do with what you claim. Secondly, Neither North Africans nor anyone on this planet nor Sahel African themselves considers Sahel to be part of North Africa, you are simply just desperately trying to push some biased nonsense which exists only in your imagination!!!. Sahel is clearly not located in North Africa, It is geographically a transition zone between North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa and the people living there are totally different from North Africans in every aspect and Sahel Africans themselves are quite aware of this fact. North Africa is clear as the name itself, It is simply the countries located in the northernmost of the African continent, It isn't the whole African continent!!! Ryanoo (talk) 13:56, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Almost all the world organizations such as the World Bank, US Census, African Union itself, FAO, Population Reference Bureau, WTO and I can list tons of other world organizations if you want consider North Africa to be only the Mediterranean countries located in the extreme northernmost of the continent and I have never came across any organization which consider Sahel as part of North Africa!! and If you did, so please provide your sources. Thirdly, you turned the page from North Africa page to Sahel Africa, You deleted so much information very related to the topic and added so much irrelevant information, It seems that you have mistaken the North Africa page for African Sahel!!!! Ryanoo (talk) 13:59, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Moreover, Sudan was never one country with Egypt, neither do Chad with Libya nor Mali with Algeria, the aforementioned countries were just occupied by North African countries during some periods of time, they were mere colonies and the local Sahel didn't welcome the North African colonizers at all such as Sudan which still celebrates their independence day from Egypt till today. Britain have occupied many countries, but that won't make those countries part of Britain or make the people there British. For instance there is mutual historical influence between Morocco and Spain but that won't make Spain a North African country or vice versa. Should we consider Morocco a South European country because it has historic links with the Iberian peninsula??!. If you feel that there is a North African influence on the Sahel African which had been colonized during some periods by North Africans, then the right place to talk about this is African Sahel page. Ryanoo (talk) 13:43, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

My References:

13:43, 3 November 2018 (UTC)Ryanoo (talk)

You seem to be very angry about this topic @Ryanoo:. I would like to remind you that the AU, WTO and so on see the world through geopolitical regions and not those that are true to geographic accuracy alone. My sources prove me plenty enough, you simply bothered not to read them -- that much is abundantly clear. If you did, you wouldn't have said something as objectively false as Sudan not being a part of Egypt during the classical period of imperialism. Again, please research the Berlin conference. You can also consult multiple academic journals. I would also like to, since we are in part discussing colonization, direct you to read up on Spanish North Africa, Mauritania and the Western Sahara were its former territories. That one is self-evident. As I said in the editing history of the article, I added a section on the Sahel because trading with countries located between the Sahara and the Sahel were instrumental in how Arab geographers and 19th century European scholars mapped out the area hence influencing how we see North Africa today. States located in the Sahel have also been exhaustively talked about on this talk page, that should tell you that it is important enough to at least mention in the article. I also never once said that there was any sort of population replacement in North Africa. You are putting words into my mouth to stir up some sort of impassioned response from me on this topic because you are frustrated that no academic source can attest to your claims.

The reason why I removed such a significant portion of the first part of the article was because it was unsourced. I really feel like I'm continuing to repeat myself with you. I am not changing the page from a North African one to a Sahelian one. No, we should not consider Sahel apart of North Africa -- if you read my article in earnest you would have seen that I wrote: "The distinction between North Africa, the Sahel and the rest of the continent is as follows:" and added the quotation from "An atlas of the Sahara-Sahel : geography, economics and security" which was published in a journal. All I did was add verifiable references crucial to understanding the borders of what is "North Africa" in the form of states that are conducive with the bio-climactic and historical information readable from my sources. If this idea is too outlandish for you to be based in fact, you might have to assess your own biases that may be preventing you from engaging in a good-faith discussion. As I informed you, I intend on letting Wikipedia's Administrators know about all this so they can determine what is permissible in the article per Wiki's rules. If they decide my information is credible, I may as that they protect the page as I'm not sure about how you might react given your past insults directed at me.

Itaren (talk) 14:38, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

@Itaren LOL you are clearly the angry one here, you are angry that you even don't know even what you talking about:). Again you are talking pure nonsense, It seems that you didn't bother to read even one word from your sources which neither has anything AT ALL to do with your claims nor the topic of the page!!!, as I said before you just trying to push some very biased nonsense which exists only in your imagination by making fake propaganda, again it is North Africa page not African Sahel. Now after I refuted your claims, you are trying to insult, attack me personally and threaten me as expected :). Ryanoo (talk) 15:39, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately for you I am Egyptian and I know my country and region history very well, It seems that you really know nothing at all of what you are talking about. Berlin conference resulted in forcing Mohammed Ali of Egypt to give up his colonies in the Arabian Peninsula, Levant, Crete and Greece and just keep the colonies of Palestinian Gaza, part of Libya and Sudan. Sudan was a mere colony which was invaded by Egyptians in 1820, go research the Egyptian conquest of Sudan (1820–1824). The Egyptian army during that era occupied all Levant, parts of Greece, most of Arabian peninsula, Sudan ( which didn't welcome Egyptians at all and made many revolutions) and was was about to occupy the capital of the Ottoman Empire without the eventual intervention of Great Britain and European countries ( Berlin Conference which forced Mohammed Ali of Egypt to give up most of the colonies) but that wouldn't make any of the countries Egyptian or part of Egypt during that era. As for your reference to geography, I am really speechless :) I would like you to bring the world map and check which countries are located in the northernmost of the African continent :), it is simple as that, in fact every sentence you say contradict the other :). Again, If you feel that there is North African influence on the Sahel African which had been colonized during some periods by North Africans, then the right place to talk about this is African Sahel page not here. Anyway, I am going to file a sock-puppetry report against you today and the decision is entirely up to Wikipedia administration, In fact I was planning to report you for sock-puppetry yesterday, but unfortunately, I didn't have time. Ryanoo (talk) 15:16, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

2

Nothing about your Egyptian heritage @Ryanoo: is unfortunate for me. I'm Mauritanian, however, I did not bring it up as it is irrelevant to the Wikipedia article itself. See? I withheld a personal / empirical "fact," this is how discussion and the construction of articles should go. I'm not afraid of investigation, as I have nothing at all to hide about my activity. I stand by my past comments on the article edits and here in the "talk" section. You, however, were warned by myself and @Roxy the dog: to refrain from insults, misusing wikipedia's rules around vandalism and what you claim to be sock puppetry. I may not be knowledgable enough about all of Wikipedia's fine print but even I am aware that sources must be verifiable and it's not enough to ramble on about information you cannot back up credibly. Since you don't have the intention of remaining civil with me, I refuse to engage in anymore conversation with you on this topic.

Edit: I'm open to discussing this with any one else interested! I really enjoy good faith historical and geographic discussion. As for the above user Ryanoo's claim that the Sahel was "colonized" by North Africa (poor use of the term colonization as it refers particularly to the economic exploitation of peripheral lands for the benefit of a typically more "developed" economy, when the relationship I outlined was trade partnership) -- it's unsubstantiated which you can see in my references yourself. I'm also not trying to detract from the "North Africa" topic as this user accused but explaining who, when, and how the bounds of North Africa were created which so happen to coincide with the Sahel (multiple dynasties, trade routes, cultural exchange, ethnic groups, Ottoman occupation). North Africa on wiki seems to be contentious but we are here to voice our verifiable points and meet each other halfway for the benefit of English Wiki users worldwide. If anyone wants to work on a well sourced map from a blank page (remove Chad and Niger from the orthographic map) that would also be welcome :)

Itaren (talk) 17:05, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. Western Sahara is sometimes included in West Africa. Ceuta, Melilla, the Plazas de soberanía, and the Autonomous Regions of Portugal are parts of North Africa, but the Canary Islands are a part of West Africa. A few Italian offshore islands (Pantelleria and the Pelagie Islands) are also geographically parts of North Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:12, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Request for comment - inclusion of Sudan

There is currently a lack of consensus as to which countries the geographical descriptor of North Africa should include. This region is messy, with the Maghreb, Northwestern Africa, Northeastern Africa and Middle East regional groupings all overlapping. One question that has been discussed extensively on this page in various forms, but lingered unresolved for decades, is whether to include Sudan. At present, the principle source that includes Sudan in its definition of North Africa is the UN Statistics Division, which uses the UN geo-scheme as its basis. However, the African Union, World Bank, Encylopedia Britannica sources and others exclude it. Sudan is also included as part of Northeastern Africa and the Sahel group of countries, and, in some sources, as part of East Africa. Again, it is principally the UN Statistics Division that excludes it from East Africa. Should Sudan be included in North Africa? Please comment below. Iskandar 323 (talk) 13:30, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment So you are looking for a be all end all definition to North Africa but the sources do not offer it. they instead offer contradictory opinions that either include Sudan or don't. However this is Wikipedia. It's not our place to decide whether Sudan is in North Africa or not. But that's what you are looking for. We would be creating original research to do so.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:25, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment @Serialjoepsycho: Ah, well perhaps I could have phrased the proposition slightly better. I suppose the question could also be outlined as: should Sudan be considered as part of North Africa in terms of the working definition of this page? I.e.: Should Sudan be discussed in detail on this page? OR, should it be noted at the top of the page that Sudan is included in some but not most definitions, and then proceed on that basis? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The point of my above comments is what do the sources say? You mention that some include Sudan. Without some major overriding justification there's no reason to exclude.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:53, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment (summoned by the bot): if reliable sources differ on whether Sudan is part of North Africa, our article should reflect this. For example, the lead can mention that some sources include Sudan but others don't. The map can use different shades to distinguish countries that are included according to different sources, as we do in other articles such as Southern Africa. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 19:58, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
• CommentI agree with Mx. Granger and -Serialjoepsycho- if reliable sources differ on whether Sudan is part of North Africa, we shouldn't be making a judgement, our article should reflect this differing viewpoints. Deathlibrarian (talk) 10:10, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

So yeah that's pretty much what I said.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:39, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment, again. sigh. We already include what various reliable sources say, and note that some sources differ. I personally do not believe that the article requires any surgery, or rebuilding, as our job is not to define, but to report what reliable sources say. Read the rest of this page to see this same discussion happening time and time again. (and me saying the same thing) -Roxy the sceptical dog. wooF 15:52, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. The Sudan shouldn't be excluded in this article. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:14, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Mauritania should be added on the map (green colour).

Mauritania is not on the map? 2A02:27B0:4B04:8870:CCF8:2A17:F843:E004 (talk) 21:41, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment It shouldn't. Mauritania is always a part of West Africa. Western Sahara is sometimes included in West Africa too. Mauritania is a part of the Arab world though. The Arab world also includes the Comoros, Djibouti, and Somalia etc.

The Sudan should be added on the map. It is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:19, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

First sentence redundancy

The current first sentence reads, North Africa, or Northern Africa, is a region encompassing the northern portion of the African continent.

This form is against guidance of MOS:REDUNDANCY,

Use the first sentence of the article to provide relevant information that is not already given by the title of the article [...] If the article's title does not lend itself to being used easily and naturally in the first sentence, the wording should not be distorted in an effort to include it. Instead, simply describe the subject in normal English, avoiding unnecessary redundancy.

Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:54, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

What do you suggest? M.Bitton (talk) 22:10, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

I think including the Sahara desert would be more helpful because it provides the reader a widely known point of reference. Also, it is common to use the term Subsaharan Africa. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:18, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

That's not an improvement. The Sahara is just a region in North Africa, it doesn't define it. M.Bitton (talk) 22:26, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

It certainly is an improvement. I think it is self evident that North Africa or Northern Africa is a region and I have no idea how it is helpful saying that Norhern Africa encompasses the northern portion of the African continent. I mean, what other portion would it encompass, the southern region? Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 00:52, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

It's obviously not that self-evident (given its use in the dictionaries). M.Bitton (talk) 09:41, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

A reference is called for. Besides, dictionaries are infamous for many times using redundancies and circular definitions. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 18:36, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary#The dictionary definition trap,

A good definition is not circular, a synonym or a near synonym, overly broad or narrow, ambiguous, figurative, or obscure. When a descriptive title is self-explanatory, such as history of Malta, a definition may not be needed. See also fallacies of definition.

Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 18:46, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

The dictionaries were mentioned in a specific context (to prove that the claim that it's "self-evident" is not a fact). The latest policy that you cited doesn't apply in this instance as there is no singular accepted definition for the region. You don't need to convince me that the lead sentence may or may not need changing as I don't mind either way (that's why I asked you to suggest something), but if it needs changing, then it cannot be with something worse.

Unfortunately, what you're proposing is WP:OR and misleading, but worst of all, it contradicts the common definitions that are stated in the lead. M.Bitton (talk) 15:14, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

We just think very differently and disagree with each other. But interesting. You think that North Africa doesn't contain the Sahara desert? Do you think saying that "North Africa, or Northern Africa, is a region that contains the Sahara Desert." is original research? Do you think the Sahara is not in North Africa? Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 21:14, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

It's not about what I think. Although there is no singular accepted definition for the region, most RS describe North Africa in terms of the countries that it contains. M.Bitton (talk) 10:36, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a proposal to mirror said definitions in terms of the countries it contains? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:55, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

It's already there, starting with The most common definition ... M.Bitton (talk) 23:26, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Are you proposing it to be in the first sentence? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 23:33, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I think that the current lead is fine as it introduces the reader to the region's location as well as the fact that there is no singular accepted definition for it. M.Bitton (talk) 23:37, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Ok, it is fine we disagree. It simply means it is time to request more input from other editors. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 23:49, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Pinging @JacobTheRox, Thebiguglyalien, and Novem Linguae: for consensus. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:14, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@Thinker78: why did you ping those editors in particular? M.Bitton (talk) 21:21, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton Because they are members of the WikiProject Lead Improvement Team. Not forum shopping. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:30, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@Thinker78: That's not how we seek consensus. If you want input from the community, then you don't cherry pick who to ping and who to leave out. You can either ping all of them (though, in this case, since you're a member of that project, I'm not sure that's appropriate), ping all those that have contributed to this article recently, advertise the discussion in the relevant boards or start a RfC. M.Bitton (talk) 21:34, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I am familiar with the dispute resolution process. I pinged them per WP:CONTENTDISPUTE, "if you cannot resolve the dispute through discussion with the other editor, you may request participation from uninvolved, interested editors to build consensus for your changes". They are not involved and I haven't even had much interaction with them if any, if that's your concern. I randomly pinged them, I didn't cherry picked them. I have just posted a request of input in the wikiproject page. Assume good faith. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:46, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

They are involved since you're all members of the same project. It's about doing things properly (faith has nothing to do with it). In any case, I suggest we start a RfC to put this to bed once and for all. Suggestions on what it should include are welcome. M.Bitton (talk) 21:49, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Involved in the context of consensus means being involved in the discussion. Another thing would be canvassing editors favorable to one opinion. being in the same Wikiproject doesn't mean people there share one's opinions, as you may be aware. In fact, discussions often form in wikiprojects with various points of view.

If you want to make an RfC I suggest making a simple question of A vs B versions.

Version A: North Africa, or Northern Africa, is a region encompassing the northern portion of the African continent.

Version B: North Africa, or Northern Africa, is a region that contains the Sahara Desert.

Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:32, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I started a RfC with the options that you suggested. M.Bitton (talk) 23:01, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't recommend pinging folks for something like this since it looks too much like canvassing. Leaving a message on a WikiProject talk page is fine though and is probably the best way to do it. Like you did at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lead Improvement Team#Input requested first sentence North Africa. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I understand your point. Problem is that in small wikiprojects the situation might be that no one is watching the talk page. Then activity dies down. Pinging in my opinion is another way of reactivating the project. Not that I ping to often to irritate members too... Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 03:22, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry I haven't been well. Currently the lede is ridiculous. It is currently "Northern Africa is the North of Africa". This is clearly against redundany policy. For example, the lede of human digestive system is not "The human digestive system is the system of digestion in humans". I think it should be "While there is no common consensus on the specific geographical location of northern Africa, it is sometimes defined as stretching from the Atlantic shores of Mauritania in the west, to Egypt's Suez Canal in the east." or similar. Remember that the lede of an article doesn't have to start with the article name. JacobTheRox (talk) 09:04, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

One issue is that redundant is often misunderstood as a synonym of repetitive, but they're not identical. The difference is subtle but important, and since I've gone into more detail about it at the Rfc, I won't repeat that here. What I will say, is that I agree with you that it's essential to determine if the term is well-defined or not; if is is, one could simply list the countries or geographical features that correspond to agreed-upon usage. If it's not well-defined, as your example suggests, then one could sketch out the majority viewpoint (if there is one) and some of the alternatives. Some good articles to look at for ideas are Eastern Europe and Mitteleuropa. (There's also Central Europe, but I'm not too crazy about the lead sentence there, which leaves me feeling I haven't learned at thing.) Maybe an even better example might be Northern Europe, which has a matching adjective, similar vague definition, and (imho) is similarly often avoided in favor of other, more well-known alternatives. Mathglot (talk) 04:45, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Mauritania

The article includes Mauritania, but the map does not. Previous discussions seem divided. Senorangel (talk) 01:17, 4 October 2023 (UTC)