Talk:North Africa/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Definition of North Africa

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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ryanoo and others, why not accept that North Africa can be interpreted in many ways and create an article accordingly? Sudan's inclusion is historic and links to its joint history with Egypt. The US census is only one interpretation that carries no greater weight than many other sources that interpret North Africa in a different way. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:53, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion Roger 8 Roger but Sudan was and is totally different racially, culturally, genetically, historically and in every aspect from Egypt and other North African countries. Egyptians were and are related culturally and genetically ( as proven by peer reviewed DNA studies of ancient remains ) to neighboring Levantines and other Mediterranean North Africans to a lesser extent. If you are talking about the ancient Egyptian occupation of Nubia and Kush kingdoms during some periods, Ancient Egyptians as well occupied all Levant and big parts of Mesopotamia, Libya and Southern Anatolia but that won't make those areas North African countries. Egypt during all the Islamic caliphates was ruled as one mass with Levant but that won't make this area North African and won't make Egypt Levantine country. If you are talking about the Egyptian occupation of Sudan during Mohammad Ali dynasty, Egypt at that time also occupied all Levant, parts of Greece and most of Arabian peninsula http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:States_under_Muhammad_ali%27s_rule.jpg but that definitely won't make those areas North African countries. If you are talking about the link between the very tiny Nubian minority in far southernmost of Modern Egypt and Nubians in Sudan, there are also stronger links between Toubou people and Tuaregs in South Libya and Chad and the same goes for Algeria and Niger and Mali where there is also some historic links but that won't make those countries North African countries. Should we consider Morocco a South European country because it has historic links with Iberian peninsula??!. Sudan which means the land of Blacks in Arabic was the name given by Arabs to all the area which extends from Sudan in the East and includes Chad, Mali,... etc till Senegal in the West. This Sudanese user Mameab1989 / 172.78.99.127 is the one who suggested using the US census definition ad has insulted me before, Sudan isn't included in North Africa by most such as World Bank, US Census, African Union itself, FAO, Population Reference Bureau, WTO and many others. The most commonly accepted definition includes the Mediterranean countries in the northernmost of the continent ( Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco ). This Sudanese user (Mameab1989 / 172.78.99.127) has insulted me before in one of his edit summaries by calling me hating Masri ( Egyptian ) and immature disgusting person and said in another edit summary "the original inhabitants there are Copts in the shores and Nubians to the south of Giza all the way down" which is pure nonsense and shows that he has some Afrocentric agenda which is very offensive to Egyptians. Copts were and are the only natives of both Upper Egypt ( south of Giza all the way down ) and lower Egypt and in fact the vast majority of christian Copts currently live in Upper Egypt. Nubians were and are totally different racially, culturally, genetically, historically and they spoke and still speak totally different language which belongs to totally different language family and are centered in Sudan and in fact they were enemies of Egyptians. Egypt was and is a Mediterranean transcontinental country located in North Africa and West Asia and it is a Middle Eastern country. Unfortunately, the Afro-centrists succeeded in spreading their nonsense among African Americans, many Sudanese and others. Egyptians are really offended by this Afrocentric nonsense and find it quite annoying and ridiculous and I think you would agree with me that cultural appropriation and stealing history and culture from the natives of any country is quite offensive. Thank you Ryanoo (talk) 18:56, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Hello Mr.ryanoo it is me Mameab1989 (talk) 21:16, 11 January 2018 (UTC) First I did not mean to insult you. I was only trying to speak the truth. I have meet a few people like you from Egypt(most people are not like you in Egypt) who try to deny that Nubians are Egyptians and are the original inhabitants of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan. I would like for you first to read these facts with an open mind and accept the truth. First, the culturally, historically connection of Egypt and Sudan are well documented read Charles Bonnet, The Nubian Pharaohs, which he states that the original inhabitants of Egypt are the Nubians who cultivated the first civilization and eventually developed the Egyptian pharaonic civilization. Moreover, you can read mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration?, and Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrationsboth studies outline the racially and genetically connection of Sudan and Egypt, and some of the differences given the fact that almost every major empire rules Northern Egypt to some extent and left their offsprings there, which was not the case in Southern Egypt. Also, when I called you masri I did not mean it as an ethnicity I meant it as someone who lives in Egypt. Ethnically Egypt as a country now is multi-ethnic there is Turks, Albanian, Greek, French, Assyrian, Persian, Albanian, Arab, English, and Italian all are fine people, but are they the original ethnic group of Egypt? No, the only two ethnic groups to Ancient Egyptians are the Nubians and Copts, and the Nubians far more closer to the original ancient Egyptians according to Charles Bonnet and Jean-François Champollion who stated in his work Egypte Ancien that the Egyptians and Nubians are represented in the same manner in tomb paintings and reliefs, further suggesting that: "In the Copts of Egypt, we do not find any of the characteristic features of the ancient Egyptian population. The Copts are the result of crossbreeding with all the nations that successfully dominated Egypt. It is wrong to seek in them the principal features of the old race. Also, if you understand Arabic you can watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEKzcOLl_so. Moreover, I can't believe you just said Muhammed Ali the Albanian is Egypian he is not neither are the Turks who reside in Egypt, and the Turks and Albanian are fine people, but they are not the original Egyptian. In regard to the definition of North Africa here is the definition of the U.S Census, U.N and International Organization for Migration (IOM) which include Sudan in North Africa and for racial category for the U.S Census Sudan is part of North Africa. You can call the U.S Census offfice in DC and check yourself the definition include Sudan. This is the English page so it include Sudan. In the Arab world North Africa only reefers to the Berbers inhabited area. while, Sudan, Egypt, and Libya are included with the Middle East, but this is the English page so the definition we go by is the U.N and U.S Census. Moreover, Djibouti is included in North Africa according to the World Bank. Yet, you do not put it on the page or table of North Africa quite offensive. Also, the term Sudan was not given by the Arabs to the region it was called that during the time of the Ottoman and Muhammad Ali. During the time of the Arab it was known a the Kingdom of Makuria. At the end of the day I love Masr and Sudan and my culture and history. Yes, cultural appropriation and stealing history and culture from the natives of any country is quite offensive so stop trying to remove the Nubians, Beja people, and Nuba from the Ancient history of North Africa, and Egypt in particular. Thank you!

Thank you for your reply Mr. Mameab1989 / 172.78.99.127 but sorry all what you said is pure nonsense as there is no even one word true in what you said, it is very obvious that you have an Afrocentric agenda and Unfortunately for you I am a geneticist. Are you lying to yourself my friend ? :) Anyone ( either Egyptian or not ) knows clearly that what you wrote a pure nonsense which exists only in your imagination and in fact you saved me a lot time by posting these links because you debunked yourself by these links as it obviously contradict all what you said at all, so you did a good job in debunking yourself by yourself :). First of all there are no any Persians , French, ..... etc and all what you mentioned in Egypt, this fairy tale only exists in the imagination of Afrocentrists. By the way there is no any archaeologist or anthropologist or geneticist or Egyptologist called Charles Bonnet, did you just make up that fairly tale?! :). And what you said about Jean-François Champollion is a pure joke as he has NEVER EVER said something like that because simply he was a philologist and linguist who has nothing at all to do with anthropology or archaeology or genealogy ( I love the way you make up stories and believe it and I have to admit that you have a good imagination my friend :) ) and he is the one who deciphered the ancient Egyptian language by using COPTIC language and other related Afro-Asiatic Middle Eastern languages: Aramaic, Syriac, Chaldean and Arabic and he stated that COPTIC language is the purest descendant of the ancient Egyptian language. It is really funny when a Sudanese person is trying to teach me about my country's history, have you ever seen a Congolese teaching an English person about his English history ? :)

The second joke is what you said that Sudan ( which means the Land of Black people in Arabic ) was the name given by Ottomans !!! to your country, the word "Sudan" is an Arabic word not Turkish word my friend :) and you know this very well, Sudan was the name given by Arabs to all the area which extends from Sudan ( land of Black people in Arabic ) in the East till and includes Chad, Mali,... etc till Senegal in the west and you are quite aware of this. The funniest Joke ever is what you said about Copts, in Egypt there are Arabs and Copts and all Egyptians consider Christian Copts https://imgur.com/a/tVTKJ ( the majority of christian Copts live in the South which debunks your nonsense ) the pure descendants of ancient Egyptians and the Coptic language ( the latest stage of the ancient Egyptian language ) the only descendant of ancient Egyptian language , I am a native Egyptian and I have never met an Egyptian in my whole life who consider himself anything from this weird list you mentioned which exists only in your Afrocentric imagination :). ALL Egyptians consider the very tiny Nubian minority ( 0.002 % ) in the very far southernmost of Egypt a diaspora distinct Black Sub-Saharan Sudanese Nilo-Saharan minority from Nubia who happened to have the Egyptian nationality, there are also Nubian minorities in Kenya and Uganda as well as other countries. Nubians are quite aware of this fact and none of them consider himself descendant of ancient Egyptians or such weird nonsense except for very few ones counted on the fingers of one hand only in the last 7 years after being taught this nonsense by Black American Afrocentrists.

The peer reviewed genetic studies show clearly that neither Egyptians or Christian Copts have any Greek or Persian DNA or anything from your weird list DNA. Ancient Egyptians were and still are related culturally, genetically, historically, linguistically,... etc to the neighboring Levantines and other Mediterranean North Africans to a lesser extent. The peer reviewed studies done on Ancient Egyptian mummies shows clearly that ancient Egyptians cluster with Bronze age West Asian Levantines and that modern Egyptians ( the descendants of ancient Egyptians ) in addition to their overwhelmingly Ancient Middle Eastern DNA, some of them have received 0~8% Sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. The DNA samples covers a very huge time frame from the 18th dynasty ( THE GOLDEN ERA of Egypt ) all the way till the Roman era which is around 2000 years !! and what is interesting is that despite the huge time frame, all samples are genetically very homogeneous and show perfect continuity and they have no any Greek , Roman or Persian DNA which means that so-called invasions had no any effect on the genetic pool of ancient Egyptians so what you said is pure nonsense plus Levant and Mesopotamia were invaded much more than Egypt, the cruel Mongols invaded Iraq yet modern Iraqis don’t look Mongolian or have Mongolian DNA. Ancient Egyptians were a head of their time and they successfully as well occupied all Levant, Sudan and big parts of Mesopotamia, Libya and Southern Anatolia.The genetic studies on Modern Egyptians shows clearly that they cluster with their neighboring Levantine populations specially Southern Levantines and Other Mediterranean North African to a lesser extent and that during the last 700 years, few Egyptians have received very minor Sub-Saharan admixture and that during the last 1200 years, few of the other North Africans in the Maghreb have received very minor West African Sub-Saharan admixture. The dental morphology of the Roman-period Egyptian mummies was also compared with that of earlier Egyptian populations, and was found to be much more closely akin to that of ancient and predynastic Egyptians than to Greeks or other European populations which again confirms what I said before that the so-called invasions had no effect on the ancient Egyptian population. First modern man in Egypt was CRO-MAGNON who resemble European Upper Paleolithic age humans going back more than 30000 years and Copts still till today carry his MTDNA U6 as their main Haplogroup. The anthropomorphic and craniometric studies on pre-dynastic Neolithic ancient Egyptians show clearly that ancient Egyptians cluster with ancient populations of Southern Levant. Genetic studies on modern Egyptians shows clearly that they cluster with Southern Levantines such as Palestinians and Jordanians.

The most notable anthropologists: Loring Brace, David P. Tracer, Lucia Allen Yaroch, John Robb, Kari Brandt, A. Russell Nelson have said "The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania " and they also said "We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well". Ancient Egyptians considered Nubians Black Sub-Saharan Africans who have totally distinct culture and spoke and still speak totally different language belonging to totally different language family ( Nilo-Saharan ) like the languages of Nuba people and other Sub-Saharan Africans, Nubians still practice till today pure Sub-Saharan customs such as tribal scarification https://imgur.com/a/TDVYW. Any Egyptian will find this Afrocentric nonsense quite ridiculous and can been debunked in one sentence as Ancient Egyptians spoke the Egyptian language which belongs to the Egyptian branch the Afro-Asiatic language family and Coptic is the latest stage of it while Nubians spoke and still speak Nubian language which belongs to the Nilo-Saharan language family, it is like the difference between English and Congolese language. Moreover, Ancient Egyptians considered Nubians their enemies and they depicted them sometimes as slaves and war captives and they were depicted in the Egyptian art in TOTALLY distinct and different way from the way Egyptians depicted themselves and in fact ancient Egyptians used very offensive racial and other slurs in describing them on the walls of temples. Secondly you debunked yourself by the links which you posted as it shows very clearly that Sudanese were and are totally different genetically and ethnically from Egyptians, the first study which is a mtDNA DNA study simply shows that there is Egyptian Eurasian incline and Egypt is the source of it which resulted in a minor Caucasoid Eurasian admixture in Sudanese people ( this comes from the fact that Sudan was occupied by Egypt in ancient and recent times some periods and the very recent Arab and Coptic migrations to Sudan in the last 200 years and this is the case in all other Sahel African countries bordering North African countries like Chad, Mali, etc who have also got some minor Caucasoid admixture because of other North African Maghreb migration to this area ) and that there is a Black Sub-Saharan Sudanese incline which resulted in a very tiny Black admixture in few Southern Egyptians ( This is because of trans-Saharan slave trade and Black immigrants to Egypt in the last 700 years ) and this is the case in all other North African countries where there is West African incline which resulted in very tiny Black admixture Maghrebi North Africans due to the trans-Saharan and recent Sub-Saharan migrations. A person who is 80% Black + 20% German is more related to a full German person than a person who is a 100% Black to the same full German person but the 80% + 20% German is still much more related to the 100% Black person. Sudanese and other fellow Sahel Africans have minor Caucasoid Component because of North African Caucasoid migration but, they are still so more much related to Sub-Saharan Africans than to North Africans and Middle Easterners. Sahel African area which extends from Sudan in the East and includes Chad, Mali, ... etc till Senegal in the West have been always the transition area between North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa proper, Sudanese were always and still are similar culturally, racially, genetically,.. etc related to their fellow Sub-Saharan Sahel Africans and Horn Africans to a lesser extent. And the second study debunks it self by itself :) and I doubt that you have read a word in it, in fact I was planning to include this study in my reply but you have saved me time by posting it :) Thank you my friend!, the study simply shows the genome-wide data of all ethnic groups in Sudan and Horn Africans compared to Middle Eastern and North African populations genetic cluster of ( Palestinians, Egyptians, Druze, Bedouins, Mozabites ) and the difference is clear is very clear as hell, I will suggest that you wear your glasses and look at the genome-wide data of your own supposed evidence :) and even with out all this, the distinction is very clear for everyone :), Sudanese people obviously look much more similar to Sub-Saharans like neighboring Sahel Africans and others.

Returning again to the topic of ancient Egyptians, All ancient historians differentiated very well between Egyptians and Sudanese Nubians. Herodotus called the ancient Egyptians "Melanchores" which means ruddy skin which is the same word used by Homeros to describe Odysseus in the Odysee, of course you are not suggesting that Odysseus was Black :), are you ? In addition to that Herodotus said the ancient Egyptians are identical to the "Colchians" because like them they have ruddy skin and wavy/curly hair, guess who were the Colchians and where do they live now ? https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Georgia/@42.2331599,38.8822074,6z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x40440cd7e64f626b:0x4f907964122d4ac2 Caucasian Georgia, those are the Colchians, so good luck trying to prove Colchians were Black people somehow :) Herodotus in fact proved that the Egyptians were not black. Herodotus said in his book the Histories describing Nubians (pg. 92) “Ethiopians inhabit the country immediately above Elephantine, and one half of the island; the other half is inhabited by Egyptians. If Herodotus had meant to describe Egyptians as black Nubians, he’d have called them "Athiopes" which means burnt Black faces as he and all ancient authors called Nubians, Kushites and all Black people in general (Ethiopians) "Aithiopes" while they called Egyptians "Aegyptus" And since no Black Negroid ancient remains have ever been found in The Caucasus (Colchis) this should be a big hint to you Sherlock :) Herodotus as well in the same book ( pg.139-140 ) called the Kushites "Ethiopians" and referred to their capital city of Meroe. Manilius said in Astronomica 4.724 describing Ethiopians (Nubians and Kushites), Indians and Egyptians “The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone”. Arrian said in his book Indica 6.9“The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically”. Strabo said in his book Geography 15.1.13 “As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians”. Hippocrates recorded that Egyptians looked like the Scythians (Persians/Iranians) with the same ruddy complexion Xenpohanes said in (Hesoid, works and says, 527-8) “Black people resided not in Egypt but in a far land, by the fountain of the sun” and he said about lower Nubians who lived who was living near the Nubian/Egyptian borders "It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not. Now the inhabitants of the marches ( Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians".

I really find it quite amusing how amusing how Afro-centrists are trying to appropriate and black-wash Ancient Egypt by photo-shopping ( Afro-shopping ) pictures and publishing fake and wrong information. Ancient Egyptians were simply olive skinned Caucasoids of ancient Middle Eastern genetic stock as has been proven by genetics, archaeology, anthropology, art and other countless evidences. Egyptian art during some periods was stylized, symbolic and not realistic, it is just art and it is common to find different depictions with different colors for the same person. Colors used are also not realistic, but are often used specifically to denote things like gender or group affinity just like Roman or Greek art which showed sometimes Greeks or Romans in dark pigmentation although in reality they weren’t dark. By using Roman or Greek art like those pictures https://www.pinterest.com/pin/386324474270255809 https://www.pinterest.com/pin/406238828864982154/ , https://www.pinterest.com/pin/548383692098469068/ I can mislead others ( like what Afrocentrists do ) and prove that Ancient Romans or Greeks were dark or black although they definitely weren’t. This is how Ancient Egyptians depicted European Minoan Greeks https://imgur.com/a/qGOvQ . In Ancient Egyptian art, Colors used to depict Egyptians were used are to denote things like gender or group affinity Egyptian males for example were drawn red which refers to the fertile land, while all women in classic Egyptian art are yellow or white. Also compare the size of the fingers and eyes to the body. Funny enough, some other nationalities had their own color and didn't have this gender-color division that Egyptians have in their art while some others had it like Roman Etruscans https://www.pinterest.com/pin/399413060675367161/ All the ancient Egyptian mummies were classified as Caucasoid and some mummies even have red and blonde hair. All Egyptian mummies were classified as Caucasoid and have straight or wavy hair except one mummy which is of The Nubian Fan Bearer Maiherpri which has totally different different and distinct features as well as woolly hair which shows clearly the clear distiniction between Nubians and Egyptians. Nubians are quite proud of their culture and they are totally aware that you are totally distinct culturally, racially , ... etc from ancient Egyptian and they don't embarrass themselves by trying to link themselves to people whom they were and are totally different from. I wonder why one of them would like to be link to ancient Egyptians who described them sometimes in very offensive ways as the inscription of the Egyptian Prince Amenim, which is carved into the stone in the doorway of his cliff-tomb in Benihasin, describes the lands of Black Nubians and Kush as "vile." It reads as follows: "I passed Kush sailing southward,... then his majesty returned in safety having overthrown his enemies in KUSH THE VILE." or this inscription of The first Semneh stela recounting the subjugation of Nubia by Sesostris III reads as follows: "Southern boundary, made in the year 8, under the majesty of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Sesostris III,… in order to prevent that any Black Nubian should cross it, by water or by land, with a ship, or any herds of the Black Nubians; except a Nubian who shall come to do trading in Iken, or with a commission. Every good thing shall be done with them but without allowing a ship of the Blacks to pass by Heh, going down stream, forever" and there are many other inscriptions which are way much more offensive so I preferred not to mention it it. I think anyone tries to link himself to a someones who described his people in this way is obviously having self-hate problems.

Regarding the definition of North Africa by US Census which you are the one suggested using it, Come on my friend !, are you still lying to yourself ??. Sudan isn't included in North Africa by US Census and I have added the citations which shows this very clearly and you are quite aware of this fact and I am ready to provide tons of more citations if you want. Sudan was and still is totally different racially, culturally, genetically, historically and in every aspect from all North African countries plus even geographically Sudan isn't located in North Africa. It is common sense my friend, North Africa from the name itself means the countries which is located in the North and Sudan is clearly not located in Northern part of the African continent. Sudan is like Chad, Mali, Niger which all share northern borders with North African countries like Libya and Algeria. North Africa is simply the Mediterranean countries which is located in the Northernmost of the continent, Sudan isn't even considered part of North Africa politically by most such as World Bank By the way,Bank, US Census, African Union itself, FAO, Population Reference Bureau, WTO and I can list tons of other world organizations if you want and in fact I am pretty sure that you are aware of this fact. By the way, Mohammed Ali was an Egyptian of Albanian origin who has led the Egyptian army to occupy Sudan ( which didn't welcome Egyptians at all and Sudanese people till today celebrate their independence day from Egypt), all Levant, most of Arabian peninsula and parts of Greece. He is just like Napoleon Bonaparte who was French of Italian Corsican origin and has led the French army and had many victories all over all the Mediterranean and the World or such as Queen Elizabeth of England who is of German origins, Mohammed Ali didn't invade Egypt, he was an Egyptian of Albanian origin who came to power by Egyptian people and the Egyptian Naqib of Ashraf Omar Makram who put him in power and actually Mohammed Ali refused in the beginning then he accepted after Omar Makram insisted and in fact he was one of the biggest enemies of the Ottomans and he was about to occupy the capital of the Ottoman Empire without the eventual intervention of Great Britain and European countries.

The most hilarious thing is the last sentence of your paragraph which itself is a pure example of history and cultural appropriation, just like the rest of your paragraph :). You want me to include Nuba people who live in far southern part of Republic of Sudan who has nothing to do racially, culturally or even geographically with North Africa, Come on my friend !! a West African Nigerian have better chance passing in North Africa ( even geographically ) than a Nuba person :). Bejas have nothing to do with North Africa as the vast majority of Bejas are Cushitic people who speak Cushitic language related to East Africans and the vast majority of Bejas live in Eritrea, Sudan, Ethiopia and they are a very tiny minority ( few thousands ) in Hala'ib Triangle which is occupied and administered by Egypt and claimed by Sudan and your media is attacking Egypt 24/7 for occupying it :). Your Sudanese media is attacking Egypt 24/7 as well as on internet since long time ago ( just like when you has insulted me before :) ) and you are here trying to link yourself and appropriate history of Egyptians and other North Africans whom you were and are totally different from in every aspect :). Love yourself my friend and your brothers in Sudan, South Sudan and other Sahel African countries. Why are ignoring your fellow people in Southern, Eastern, Central and Western parts of your country where the vast majority of your people live and capital is located, why are you ignoring fellow closely related Sahel Africans?!!, the Sudanese media is always complaining about the neglecting and racism of all Arab world in MENA area against Sudan and saying that Sudanese people should strength their relationships with their fellow Sub-Saharan Africans where Sudan shares ethnic and cultural ties, while on the contrary some Sudanese are racist towards their fellow Sudanese people which resulted in many unreasonable civil wars between the same Sudanese people. Nubians were and are totally different racially, culturally, linguistically, historically,..etc from all North Africans, Nubians are a Nilo-Saharan people who spoke and still speak Nilo-Saharan language related to Toubou people in Chad and far southernmost of Libya as well as Kunama people and other Nilo-Saharans, Nubians were and are centered in Sudan where the vast majority of them live and they are very tiny Nubian minority in far southernmost of Egypt ( 0.002 % ), there are also Nubian minorities in Kenya and Uganda. Moreover, are you lying to yourself again?? Sudan isn't included in the definition of Middle East in either the English page or Arabic page or any other Wikipedia pages in any other language, I would suggest that you make a Wikipedia page in Nubian language and list Sudan in the Middle East if that will make you feel better my friend :). Finally, Wikipedia is clearly not the right place for spreading Afrocentric nonsense and cultural appropriation but, you can freely spread this nonsense on the Afrocentric sites and forums if that will make you feel better :). My 35 references are listed in below in the references section in sequence from 5-39. Thank you Ryanoo (talk) 08:51, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

TL;DR. For me, North Africa is the Maghreb, including Western Sahara, and Egypt. Egypt also falls in The Middle East. The discussion above will get nowhere. -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 18:45, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Hello Ryanoo and everyone, I hope that with this discussion we can come to consensus not arguing with no results. Also, I am not trying to push a Afrocentric view that Egypt or Sudan was like the west and central Africans Negroid who were brought to America as slaves. Also, I am not excluding the fact that there was and still is people who have some negroid futures in Egypt and Sudan, but they do not look like most west or central Africans even though they have some negroid futures. Moreover, I want to clarify the distinction between skin color and Race. Race as defined by the U.S Census has minimally to do with skin color and more to do with Geography, history, and lineage. For example, you can have someone from the MENA region who is clearly dark brown or black in skin color, and he or she would be considered white by the U.S Census. Also, you can have someone who is clearly fair skin, but would be considered racially Black because he or she descends from slaves (with this statement I'm not trying to look down upon people from west or central Africa, nor the slaves or descendants of slaves in America, I'm just clarifying the definition for everyone). So in term of the Racial classification of white by the U.S Census it is defined as anyone who descend from the original people of Europe, Middle East, and North Africa, keeping with the U.S Census definition Sudan is in North Africa, as well as, Mauritanian and Western Sahara. here for you the wiki page to see http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/North_Africans_in_the_United_States. If you read the study in regard to the migration it shows that there has been a migration between what is considered Egypt now and what is considered Sudan since ancient times. Also, keep in mind the Sudan including South Sudan is part of both Sub-Sahara Africa (South Sudan) and North Africa(Northern Sudan) so some studies for ageing population and such will include it with Sub-Sahara Africa or North Africa Just depend on the author of the study and what they want to do. Here is the full quote of Herodotus in his book The Histories“For the fact is as I soon came to realise myself, and then heard from others later, that the Colchians are obviously Egyptian. When the notion occurred to me, I asked both the Colchians and the Egyptians about it, and found that the Colchians had better recall of the Egyptians than the Egyptians did of them. Some Egyptians said that they thought the Colchians originated with Sesostris’ army, but I myself guessed their Egyptian origin not only because the Colchians are dark-skinned and curly-haired (which does not count for much by itself , because these features are common in others too) but more importantly because Colchians, Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only peoples in the world who practise circumcision and who have always done so.Mameab1989 (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

You will find translations where ‘black skinned and woolly haired’ are used, but the term melanchroes, which was translated to mean black in some versions, was used to describe any skin tone from bronzed to black, and through usage translates as ‘dark’. As is seen in this piece of text from Homer’s Odyssey.

With this, Athena touched him [Odysseus] with her golden wand. A well-washed cloak and a tunic she first of all cast about his breast, and she increased his stature and his youthful bloom. Once more he grew dark of color [melanchroiês], and his cheeks filled out, and dark grew the beard about his chin.Mameab1989 (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Xenpohanes (Hesoid, works and says, 527-8) the men of Egypt are mostly brown and black with a skinny desiccated look. The best description of the most common Egyptians skin tone complexion I think we can all agree upon is the one given to us by Prophet Muhammed(PBUH) in his description of Moses(PBUH) in-which He(PBUH) said, "وَرَأَيْتُ مُوسَى أَسْحَمَ آدَم “I saw Musa (Moses) and he was a black-skinned man.”Mameab1989 (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC) Musnad Imam Ahmed Hadith # 3365. Here is a reference if you can read Arabic https://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=104555 أَمَّا مُوسَى فَرَجُلٌ آدَمُ جَعْد “As for Musa/Moses, he is a black-skinned man with very curly hair.” If Moses(PBUH), had a skin color or physical futures different than egyptians indicated he was part of the children of Israel Pharaoh would have killed him. Mameab1989 (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

In-regard to the person who said, "Egyptian art during some periods was stylized, symbolic and not realistic", you can take that approach to some art work, but the majority of Egyptian art is very realistic take for example this https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Egyptian_races.jpg, the painting display the pheno-typical color and physical characteristic of Libyan, Nuba, a Syrian, and an Egyptian. The picture classifying these people hold true till this day for the most part.

To the person who said Muhammed Ali is Egyptian here http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt read it for your self he was full blooded Albanian from Korçë, Albania.

Egyptian is not an ethnicity people, it just indicate that you are a person living in the land at that time. For example, when you go to Morocco you call the person Moroccan, Algeria you call the person Algerian, Saudi Arabia you call the person Saudi, and you go to Egypt you call the person Egyptian. Does that indicate ethnicity Nooooo the guy in Morocco could be Arab, Berber, or Sahrawi. Mameab1989 (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

You have to realize that Nubian is not a one term fit all. there is a difference between Nubian's in central Sudan where Kush developed and Nubian's in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan before the 3rd cataract. They are all Nubians but there was differences with Nubians below the 3rd cataract( Central Sudan) had some Negroid futures than Caucasoid, while the Nubians from the 3rd cataract and up had more Caucasoid futures than Negroid. Similar to the differences between Arab tribes at the end they are all still Arabs. Also, Weather it is Ancient time or now, whenever a new neighboring state develop there is always some bad language exchanged between both sides. Look at the language that is exchanged sometime between Morocco and Algeria, or Mexico and the U.S now, or Egypt and Sudan, or Ukraine and Russia, do you expect for a new state to develop and work to occur without name calling? even your own cousin if they piss you off you would tell them off. Kush and Egypt are no different. As Nubian we are very proud of our Ethnicity and history and we see our self as the people who build the ancient Civilization of Nubia and the pharaonic civilization. Ethnically we are Nubian and we are very proud of it and we make it clear to you and other people and studies have shown it that we played a major role in developing both civilizations. Nationally Some of us are citizens of Egyptian, Sudanese, or other countries. So Egyptian as a Nationality and not Ethnicity apply to some of us. Personally I carry Arab and Nubian blood and Proud of both of them, and happy. As far as the person saying that Nubian are not a large portion of Egypt take your car and drive through Luxor and Aswan. Also, you find a Nubian minority in Tanzania, Kenya, and Uganda because the kingdom of Makuria once included all those territory and many Muslim Nubian traveled to these land and settled to spread the religion. Mameab1989 (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mameab1989 (talk • contribs) 03:48, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply Mr.Mameab1989/172.78.99.127. Again you are still continuing lying to yourself but this time with a straight face :) , in fact there is no even one word true in what you said and I have debunked all this nonsense in my previous reply but It seems that you didn't read it or that you act like you didn't read it :). The term "melanchroes" means ruddy and wavy hair and it is the same word Homeros used to to describe Odysseus in the Odysee, of course you are not suggesting that Odysseus was Black :), are you ? In addition to that Herodotus said the ancient Egyptians are identical to the "Colchians" because like them they have ruddy skin and wavy/curly hair, guess who were the Colchians and where do they live now ? https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Georgia/@42.2331599,38.8822074,6z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x40440cd7e64f626b:0x4f907964122d4ac2 Caucasian Georgia, those are the Colchians, so good luck trying to prove Colchians were Black people somehow :) Herodotus in fact proved that the Egyptians were not black. Herodotus said in his book the Histories describing Nubians (pg. 92) “Ethiopians inhabit the country immediately above Elephantine, and one half of the island; the other half is inhabited by Egyptians. If Herodotus had meant to describe Egyptians as black Nubians, he’d have called them "Athiopes" which means burnt Black faces as he and all ancient authors called Nubians, Kushites and all Black people in general (Ethiopians) "Aithiopes" while they called Egyptians "Aegyptus" And since no Black Negroid ancient remains have ever been found in The Caucasus (Colchis) this should be a big hint to you Sherlock :). Xenpohanes didn't say what you said at all, again you are lying to yourself :), It seems that you enjoy that but unfortunately for you spreading Afrocentric nonsense isn't allowed in Wikipedia. In fact Xenpohanes differiated very well between Egyptians and Blacks ( Nubians and Kushites ), Xenpohanessaid in (Hesoid, works and says, 527-8) “Black people resided not in Egypt but in a far land, by the fountain of the sun” and he said about lower Nubians who lived who was living near the Nubian/Egyptian borders "It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not. Now the inhabitants of the marches ( Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians". All ancient historians differentiated very well between Egyptians and Blacks ( Nubians and Kushites ) as I have mentioned in my previous reply and you are quite aware of this fact :). And what you said about the best description is the funniest lie ever of all what you said :) I like they way you make up fake stories and believe it :). Prophet Mohammed here didn't say anything about Egyptians and you know this very well, he is talking about prophet Moses who was an Israelite Hebrew, What does this have to do with Egyptians ????!! I have never seen someone lying with a straight face like this!!!, It seems that you are now saying that ancient Hebrews were Black my Afro-centrist friend LOL, next time you will say that Vikings were Black :). In fact prophet Mohammed (PBUH) used the same word to describe Jesus as well as many Noble Arabs tribes, are you suggesting that Jesus and Arabs were Black ??!! :) The word "أدم" in this narration “أَمَّا مُوسَى فَرَجُلٌ آدَمُ", which is said to describe Prophet Moses who was an Israelite Hebrew doesn't mean that prophet Moses was Black, the word " أدم " means red or dark not Black. Moreover, This is a just narration which was attributed to prophet Mohamed (PBUH) but he might not have said it. . Moreover, you said look at the language which exchange between Egypt and Sudan!!!, which exchange are you talking about?!! again you are lying to yourself with a straight face. Sudanese Nubians spoke and still speak Nubian language which belongs to the Nilo-Saharan language family which is totally different from Afro-Asiatic Middle Eastern languages like ancient Egyptian language or Arabic, it is like the different between English and Congolese.

Regarding the link of picture which you called four races, the Egyptian is depicted in a totally different way and with totally different features from the Black Nubian which debunks your nonsense and by the way the picture you posted isn't the original picture. This is another picture where Egyptian and Levantine men are depicted with same color and features while the Nubians is depicted in totally different way and with totally different features https://imgur.com/a/dobv4. Moreover, the depiction of Egyptian in the picture which you referred to is heavily stylized, as I have mentioned Egyptian males were drawn red which refers to the fertile land, while all women in classic Egyptian art are yellow or white so if the same pictures was for women, the Egyptian woman would be depicted in white. It is just art and it is common to find different depictions with different colors for the same person. Colors used are also not realistic, but are often used specifically to denote things like gender or group affinity just like Greek Minoans or Roman Etruscans, are you suggesting that Greek Minaonas and Roman Etruscans are BLack?!!!. Roman or Greek art showed sometimes Greeks or Romans in dark pigmentation although in reality they weren’t dark. By using Roman or Greek art like those pictures https://www.pinterest.com/pin/386324474270255809 https://www.pinterest.com/pin/406238828864982154/ , https://www.pinterest.com/pin/548383692098469068/ I can mislead others ( like what Afrocentrists do ) and prove that Ancient Romans or Greeks were dark or black although they definitely weren’t. This is how Ancient Egyptians depicted European Minoan Greeks https://imgur.com/a/qGOvQ . In Ancient Egyptian art, Colors used to depict Egyptians were used are to denote things like gender or group affinity Egyptian males for example were drawn red which refers to the fertile land, while all women in classic Egyptian art are yellow or white. Also compare the size of the fingers and eyes to the body. Funny enough, some other nationalities had their own color and didn't have this gender-color division that Egyptians have in their art while some others had it like Roman Etruscans https://www.pinterest.com/pin/399413060675367161/ All the ancient Egyptian mummies were classified as Caucasoid and some mummies even have red and blonde hair. All Egyptian mummies were classified as Caucasoid and have straight or wavy hair except one mummy which is of The Nubian Fan Bearer Maiherpri which has totally different different and distinct features as well as woolly hair which shows clearly the clear distiniction between Nubians and Egyptians.

DNA has put an end to your Afrocentric dreams :). The peer reviewed studies done on Ancient Egyptian mummies shows clearly that ancient Egyptians cluster with Bronze age West Asian Levantines and that modern Egyptians ( the descendants of ancient Egyptians ) in addition to their overwhelmingly Ancient Middle Eastern DNA, some of them have received 0~8% Sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. The DNA samples covers a very huge time frame from the 18th dynasty ( THE GOLDEN ERA of Egypt ) all the way till the Roman era which is around 2000 years !! and what is interesting is that despite the huge time frame, all samples are genetically very homogeneous and show perfect continuity and they have no any Greek , Roman or Persian DNA which means that so-called invasions had no any effect on the genetic pool of ancient Egyptians plus Levant and Mesopotamia were invaded much more than Egypt, the cruel Mongols invaded Iraq yet modern Iraqis don’t look Mongolian or have Mongolian DNA.

Regarding Mohammad Ali, It seems that you haven't read one word from what I said about him. As I mentioned before Mohammed Ali was an Egyptian of Albanian origin who has led the Egyptian army to occupy Sudan ( which didn't welcome Egyptians at all and Sudanese people till today celebrate their independence day from Egypt), all Levant, most of Arabian peninsula and parts of Greece. He is just like Napoleon Bonaparte who was French of Italian Corsican origin and has led the French army and had many victories all over all the Mediterranean and the World or such as Queen Elizabeth of England who is of German origins, Mohammed Ali didn't invade Egypt, he was an Egyptian of Albanian origin who came to power by Egyptian people and the Egyptian Naqib of Ashraf Omar Makram who put him in power and actually Mohammed Ali refused in the beginning then he accepted after Omar Makram insisted and in fact he was one of the biggest enemies of the Ottomans and he was about to occupy the capital of the Ottoman Empire without the eventual intervention of Great Britain and European countries.

Regarding the definition of North Africa by US Census which you are the one suggested using it, Come on my friend !, again you still lying to yourself with a straight face ??. Sudan isn't included in North Africa at all by US Census and I have added the citations which shows this very clearly and you are quite aware of this fact and I am ready to provide tons of more citations if you want. Sudan was and still is totally different racially, culturally, genetically, historically and in every aspect from all North African countries plus even geographically Sudan isn't located in North Africa. It is common sense my friend, North Africa from the name itself means the countries which is located in the North and Sudan is clearly not located in Northern part of the African continent. Sudan is like Chad, Mali, Niger which all share northern borders with North African countries like Libya and Algeria. North Africa is simply the Mediterranean countries which is located in the Northernmost of the continent, Sudan isn't even considered part of North Africa politically by most such as World Bank By the way,Bank, US Census, African Union itself, FAO, Population Reference Bureau, WTO and I can list tons of other world organizations if you want and in fact I am pretty sure that you are aware of this fact.

Nubians were and are Sudanese Black Sub-Saharan Africans who have spoke and still speak language belonging to totally different language family ( Nilo-Saharan ) like the languages of Nuba people and other Sub-Saharan Africans, Nubians still practice till today pure Sub-Saharan customs such as tribal scarification https://imgur.com/a/TDVYW.Again . Again love yourself, your Sudanese people and your Sub-Saharan brothers and stop trying to associate yourself with people whom you were and are totally different from in every aspect. As I said before, Wikipedia is clearly not the right place for spreading Afrocentric nonsense and cultural appropriation but, you can freely spread this nonsense on the Afrocentric sites and forums if that will make you feel better :). Thank you.Ryanoo (talk) 08:35, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Ryanoo you clearly haven't read the paper in-regard to migration or my post. If you want to take the approach that the art is symbolic you can do that, but you have to apply across the board that all the pictures you brought about the color of Greeks, Nubian, and Levant are symbolic as well. Ancient Egyptian art, like Greeks and Romans have some work which is symbolic while other are very accurate and realistic. Also, there are very dark brown to light brown Greeks, Italian, and Spaniards. Read Giuseppe Sergi book The Mediterranean Race (1901). Mameab1989 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC) The painting I posted is accurate here is another one https://i.ytimg.com/vi/rkp4I7SESeY/hqdefault.jpg, and here battle of megiddo https://i.ytimg.com/vi/FOq4hY7B1nM/maxresdefault.jpg is this also, symbolic to you?

Sudan including both North and South Sudan have part in North Africa(North Sudan) and part in Sub-Sahara Africa(South Sudan), so some studies include it in North Africa, and other in Sub-Sahara Africa and I recognize that. As far as the U.S Census goes Sudan is part of MENA. The link you gave is for the Summary meeting to propose a new racial Category in the Census in 2020 for Arabs as MENA region instead of white nothing in it is binding.Mameab1989 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, In term of color there was and still is many Arabs who are Black in skin color, dark brown, and red read the description of Ali(RA) the Nephew of the Prophet(PBUH), or Uthman(RA), or Umar(RA). Uthman(RA), and Ali(RA) were black in skin color similar to Bilal(RA). The Arabs would call the people with skin complexion like the Romans, Greeks, and Persian as Abhat(Pale) read the description of Ibn Abbas(RA) of the Romans, and the other companions. Mameab1989 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

The narration given are Authentic Narration of Prophet Muhammed(PBUH), which has no falsehood. So there is no he may or he may not have said it. Every historian, Anthropologist, geneticist, you, or anyone on this earth could lie, but the Prophet(PBUH) never lies, and his words are the absolute truth period. His words are an authentic Narration, and all the Muslim World old and new agree that those words are authentic and spoken by Prophet Muhammed(PBUH). You can lie to yourself and think everything is symbolic, but go ask any scholar and they would tell you that this is an Authentic Hadith and is taken literally. Also, that the skin complexion, and physical traits of Moses(PBUH) are true. Mameab1989 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC) I would believe the Prophet(PBUH) over my mother, father, all the scholars of this world, and all the people of this earth from the time of Adam(PBUH) till the day of Judgement. Mameab1989 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC) All these description is from ahl al-sunnah wa al-jammah and all are Authentic.

I mention Moses(PBUH) because Pharaoh and his wife adopted him as a son, and Pharaoh at the time was killing all the male children of banu Israel because he saw a dream that a man would rise from the children of Israel who would destroy his rule. So if Moses(PBUH) had any physical futures or skin color that would indicate he was a child of the children of Israel Pharaoh would have killed him. Thus, you see the close physical relationship in skin complexion and hair texture of the Children of Israel and Ancient Egyptians. Mameab1989 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Also, Just to point out your own bias the World bank definition include Djibouti and Malta in North Africa why are you not adding them as part of North Africa? You have an agenda and a bias that is glaring. Mameab1989 (talk) 18:59, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Regarding this page

Irrelevant, but why is all this text magenta? PrussianOwl (talk) 20:46, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Fixed. Don't know what caused it, but I archived the post where it started, and viola. (a large violin) -Roxy, in the middle. wooF 05:52, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 6 November 2018

I want the current version to be reverted to the previous version [1]. The user Itaren was disruptively editing the page and was refusing to engage in the talk page, and finally after he did and I refuted his claims he refused to continue the discussion on the talk page and came to attack and threaten me on my page. Later, he disruptively edited the page again after he refused to continue the discussion on the talk page and reach a consensus, then he quickly requested for page protection which that his edits are not neutral and are of bad faith!!. Ironically, I have requested protecting the page before him and my request was refused for this reason [2]. This user has made fake propaganda from nothing. He didn't include any sources which shows that Sahel African countries are part of North Africa and his sources has nothing at all to do with what he claims. Almost all the world organizations such as the World Bank, US Census, African Union itself, FAO, Population Reference Bureau, WTO and I can list tons of other world organizations if you want consider North Africa to be only the Mediterranean countries located in the extreme northernmost of the continent. Moreover, he turned the page from North Africa page to Sahel Africa, ho deleted so much information very related to the topic and added so much irrelevant information!!! He simply turned the page from North Africa to Sahel Africa!!!. Ryanoo (talk) 23:01, 6 November 2018 (UTC) Ryanoo (talk) 23:01, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

This request is neither uncontroversial or supported by consensus. so no. -Roxy, the Prod. wooF 23:19, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

So was the last disruptive edit of this user after refusing to engage in the talk page uncontroversial or supported by consensus?, in fact he literally just escaped from the discussion and avoided engaging in the talk page and then he quickly asked for page protection!, is such behavior OK and accepted?. And regarding "controversality", the article is about North Africa not African Sahel which has its own page, should I go to the page of Southern Europe and add Norway?? May I understand what do you mean by controversial?? How can a geographic location become controversial?? North Africa simply means the Northern part of Africa which Sahel countries are obviously not located in. Should I go to the page of East Asia and add Turkey?? and say it is controversial and request page protection?. Almost all the world organizations such as the World Bank, US Census, African Union itself, FAO, Population Reference Bureau, WTO and I can list tons of other world organizations as mentioned in the sources if you want consider North Africa to be only the Mediterranean countries located in the extreme northernmost of the continent. So I don't know what you exactly mean by "controversial"?. Side note: I am a 35 years old aracheogenetist and academic lecturer in the University, I am not a teenager, so please use more decent language while talking with me ( I don't mean your reply here ) like what I am doing with you, I am not a vandal or sock puppet, I am just a scientific person who hates scientific dishonesty and misleading others, I might react harsh with scientific dishonest people, but that's because I respect science and myself. I am here for editing as a volunteer, you are n't my manager or something. I really think that registering on Wikipedia should be by using Identification card to avoid vandalism and sock puppeting which will save the community here a great deal of time wasted in fighting sock puppeting and vandalism and will also give more credibility. Moreover, I don't mind at all leaving Wikipedia if they don't want good users, it is OK :). Anyway, I plan with other scientists from around the globe to create an encyclopedia in the future and who knows it could be more famous than Wikipedia one day, it is crazy but there is nothing impossible. Thank you and sorry for any inconvenience :). Ryanoo (talk) 00:21, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:19, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

July 2021

With regard to these four succesive edits:

• The majority is berber and arab speaking berber. Arabs are a minority[3] This contradicts what RS say and cannot be taken seriously.
• There is no second official language. Your edit makes it look as though Berber is the only official language in Algeria and Morocco.
• For the Banu Hilal[4]: 1) you cannot replace a reliable source with a thesis. 2) The Banu Hilal were not stopped by the Almohads (by that time they already had settled in the plains of the Central Maghreb and Ifriqiya). 3) They didn't rebel again in 1153 (your dates are incorrect). 4) This article is not about them, nor is it about the Banu Sulaym, so there is no need to create a content fork since we're linking to the concerned articles. M.Bitton (talk) 00:01, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

The person editing this is confusing Western Asia with the "Middle East" and thinks the "Middle East" is the correct opposite equivalence to "North Africa".

The accurate and correct opposite equivalence to "North Africa" is not the "Middle East" but it is Western Asia, as the Middle East includes Egypt, a country in North Africa. The Middle East is a geopolitical region that is not based on continental boundaries or lines(it is not confined to one single continent. It is on the intersection of, and extends to, Africa, Asia and Europe), while West Asia and North Africa are purely determined by continental boundaries(countries on the Western part of the Asian continent and countries on the Northern part of the African continent). Please understand the difference between the two before editing. If you want to use a term that is an opposite equivalence to the Middle East, then it is the "Maghreb" region, which this article is not about. This article is strictly about the top part of the African continent, and not about geopolitical regions like the Maghreb or the Middle East. This common misconception needs to end. P.S. The person editing this article Roxy the dog just admitted that he's never heard of the term "West Asia" before. Somebody please get some educated people here and lock the North Africa article. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 05:55, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

It's true. I had never heard the term West Asia before today. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 17:14, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Then why are you editing on here? West Asia has an article here on Wikipedia, you can check it out. Then Check out the Middle East article and understand the difference. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

I am editing to correct your errors, as the common term for the area you are referring to is the middle east. Middle East has an article here on Wikipedia, you can check it out. Then Check out the West Asia article and understand the difference-Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 17:24, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

No you need some education. When you have sentences such as this.. "Arabs from the Middle East swept across the region in a wave of Muslim conquest. These peoples formed a single population in many areas, as Berbers and Egyptians merged into Arabic and Muslim culture." then you begin to have a conflict of information when it comes to Egypt. Don't you see the contradiction? We are talking about continental locations, not geopolitical regions such as the Middle East. The Middle East and West Asia are not synonymous. While the Majority of the Middle East is situated in West Asia, it still does not make up the entirety of the Middle East. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 17:45, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

I find you to be very rude and ignorant. Middle East is the correct term. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 17:58, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

No because the Middle East extends beyond the Asian continent. How can this be so hard for you to understand? It includes Egypt in North Africa and Turkey which is a Eurasian nation. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 18:00, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

• 1) The article has been edited by a number of people and not just one person. 2) Given that there is no "accurate and correct" definition of North Africa, there is no point in looking for its "accurate and correct" opposite. 3) Since your edit has been reverted multiple times, I suggest you stop edit warring, refrain from making personal attacks and instead seek consensus for your change. M.Bitton (talk) 18:03, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  True, there is no completely accurate definition for North Africa, it can be a set of countries that are viewed as being on the top part of the African continent, which in this case, could also be interpreted in many different ways. But when we invoke terms that are not continental based(Middle East) alongside continental terminologies(North Africa), we begin to run into informational conflicts, specifically regarding those regions. The term "Middle East" is not the Middle of a specific continent. It refers to the Middle of the East in relation to Western Europe's proximity(which bred terms such as Near East, Middle East and Far East) in other words, they are terms to designate the nations from a West European directional perspective. While the term "North Africa" is obviously referring to the top part of the African continent, regardless of which countries you consider being on the top. We all agree that North Africa is within the African continent, right? Well the Middle East is not confined to one single continent. It amazes me that you allow a person that never heard of the term "West Asia" to be involved in editing articles regarding this subject. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 18:19, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  What amazes me most is the fact that you keep making personal attacks, despite being asked (nicely) to refrain from doing so. M.Bitton (talk) 22:34, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  I did not initiate the attacks. I was called "Ignorant" by a person who doesn't know what West Asia is. This has to be reported. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 22:38, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  You initiated the attack (here's the diff to prove it) and you continue making personal attacks despite being asked not to. I agree, it has to be reported by Roxy the dog. M.Bitton (talk) 22:48, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  No, the proof is actually within the edits and I quote..."Idiocy reverted". You can check the notes of each edit by Roxy. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 22:52, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Māori translation

A Māori language translation of this page has been made and needs to be linked: http://mi.wiki.x.io/wiki/%C4%80wherika-ki-te-raki?venotify=created Thomas Norren (talk) 08:44, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

done Thomas Norren (talk) 21:59, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

March 2023

@Beetrooot: your edit summary is clearly misleading: you pretended to be adding content when in fact, you changed and removed content without a valid reason. Worse still, you introduced a factual error. Please discuss your changes per BRD and refrain from edit warring. M.Bitton (talk) 18:32, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

First, you could use a more civil manner, sir. Tone down your language please, I am not here for a fight. The use of terms such as "misleading" should not be used lightly, presuming malice on people you do not know. I added multiple official documents and secondary sources to my edits, both in Arabic and French. Including from the official journal of the kingdom of Morocco, as well as other Wikipedia pages. Instead of attacking up front. Pin pointing the errors, if any, would have been the preferred way to go, this way we all advance, instead of undoing my edits without justification. Unless you insist in holding the truth. In fact, you having Wikipedia badges means in no way you are the sole upholder of the ultimate truth. Otherwise, the issue is clear: the death of community encyclopedias. Beetrooot (talk) 18:42, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not presuming anything, and talking of respect: you reverted my edit without even bothering to leave an edit summary, so I wouldn't go there if I were you. Anyway, I'm not bothered about what you added as much by what you changed and removed.

1. you removed "The largest ethnic groups in North Africa are Arabs, Berbers are considered the second largest ethnicity in north Africa in the west and the Arabs are a majority also in the east approaching the Middle East".
2. you changed "Tamazight as a second official language in Algeria and Morocco" to "Tamazight as a co-official language in Morocco and a national language in Algeria".

Care to explain why? M.Bitton (talk) 18:50, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Because those are facts. The fact of you asking is very telling. You have no knowledge about the subject. Otherwise you’d have read (if you can read Arabic which I doubt) the official journal of the Kingdom of Morocco Number 2.19.810 officially signed the 23 septembre 2019 instating the official status of Tamazight as an official (not national) language of Morocco. Enacting in fact the amendments of the Moroccan constitution dating of march 2011 announced by the King Mohammed IV. Beetrooot (talk) 18:57, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Since you're clearly avoiding to address the issue, my guess is that you just can't explain your changes. M.Bitton (talk) 19:01, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I just did! Am I talking to a bot or a wall. What is this?! Beetrooot (talk) 19:05, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Nope, you didn't explain why you removed the content. M.Bitton (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

The quote "Berbers are considered the second largest ethnicity in north Africa" Is highly, highly controversial!

Considered by who? What is the source? I actually removed a controversial non factual statement and replaced it by a more nuanced and sourced one. I can not comprehend? This is amazing! FR! Beetrooot (talk) 19:17, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

As for Algeria, the gouvernement uses the loosely defined term "national" to avoid recognition of Tamazight as an official language due to the Nationalistic tendencies of the regime. By removing this edit you (either intentionally or unintentionally - I would lean to the latter) contributing to the oppression of a whole cultural group of people. You could also read the linked Wikipedia pages to find out the first statement was factual. No need to go further. Beetrooot (talk) 19:03, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

But I guess facts do not matter anymore. sad. Beetrooot (talk) 19:07, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

What you said about Algeria is factually incorrect. No further comment necessary. M.Bitton (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Sir, my edit was not about Algeria. It was about Morocco. What is so difficult to comprehend? Beetrooot (talk) 19:19, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

You edited Algeria and even tried to explain why, so don't try to wiggle out of this. Your statement about Algeria is factually incorrect and that's that. M.Bitton (talk) 19:23, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

"Wiggle" ?! What is this language? Behave your self, sir!

Wikipedia used to be better than this! Sad. Beetrooot (talk) 19:32, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I think that what you have a hard time comprehending is that an "Official language" DOES NOT have the same meaning as "National language". The older statement is LITERALLY legally NON FACTUAL! And I gave an official document proving it! The fact that Tamazight is 'national' in Algeria was left unchanged! What is it so difficult to understand!? Beetrooot (talk) 19:36, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think, I know that your statement about Algeria is factually incorrect. The fact that you seem to think that others are ignorant makes the matter worse. M.Bitton (talk) 19:37, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Then give me one, just one single official source stating that Tamazight is 'Official' in Algeria! Go ahead! Just one? And please, sir, do not make it an ego thing, stay civil. I am not here for a fight. But facts are facts. Hope other people would read this. Really! Beetrooot (talk) 19:44, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I sure can, but when I do will you apologise for making such an asinine assertion (especially after what you said about me)? M.Bitton (talk) 19:50, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Sir, you really seem to make it an ego thing, don’t you? Here is the relevant part of Algerian constitution:

Chapter I - Algeria

Article 1 [Democracy, Republic] Algeria is a People's Democratic Republic. It is one and indivisible.

Article 2 [State Religion] Islam is the religion of the State.

Article 3 [Language] Arabic is the national and official language.

Article 3 (2002 amendment) Tamazight is also a national language.

Source: wikimeida http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Algeria#Chapter_I_-_Algeria

What do you think? Beetrooot (talk) 19:56, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Either you don't know how to use Goole or you're simply too embarrassed to admit your mistake (especially after what you said about me). That's what I think! Either way, this is my last comment. M.Bitton (talk) 20:02, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Sir, I do not want to make it about egos, but you called me 'misleading' and other things, even though I addressed you respectfully and with civility, since the first reply. I think you should be more respectful towards others and respect differences in opinion and above all, facts! You can cancel my edits and lower the level of public knowledge, but facts and truth are above your Wiki badges. You should know better. Sad! The readers deserve better. Beetrooot (talk) 20:20, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Moreover, Tamazight is not 'Official' in Algeria, it is 'National'. The older statement was not factual for Algeria as well! I actually corrected it! Beetrooot (talk) 19:40, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

That's factually incorrect! I suggest you familiarize yourself with the subject before embarrassing yourself further. I'm done wasting my time here. M.Bitton (talk) 19:45, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Reading your comments, the only conclusion I can have is that you are not familiar with the subject of North African geography or culture. Not in the least. Sad. I Hope the readers would find a better source of information. Beetrooot (talk) 18:48, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

North Africa Definition PoV War - Article Mess needs substantial revert/cleanup

The Edit War apparently starting some time in 2017 has rendered this article an utter mess.

1. Map: now shows Morocco, excludes Western Saharan territory, which is highly unstandard. Regardless of territorial views, the Western Saharan territory is typically included in North Africa. Equally the Northern Sudan is usually included and here is excluded. I gather from reading this page due to non-encyclopaedic racialist reasoning. I will put back in the Jan 2017 map which is encyclaedic and shows both core and 'wider' territory that is frequently but not always included in North Africa as a geographic term in the ordinary English usage.
2. False citation claims for example it is asserted in the first paragraph that US Census bureau defines North African. In fact the cited US Census documentation asserts no specific 'North African' definition at all. The linked / cited documents dating from 2006 to 2015 cite a general category of variously named "Near Eastern and North African" or "Middle Eastern and North African" ethnicities / populations including countries but assert no specific definition of the Region itself, only the broader conceptual geographic region of Middle-East [aka Near East] and North Africa. The claim in the text that North Africa is actually defined in these cites is simply false. It is implied, but with no definitional precision and certainly is not a strong source for a geographic region (insofar as the US Census is ... well the American bureau for its internal population, not an international agency.
3. Idiosyncratic Non Encyclopaedic definitions / Inclusions: It is typically the case that Wikipedia seeks not to assert de novo idiosyncratic definitions. The addition of for example the Italian islands is strange and bizzare. I have literally in 25 years of professional work in the MENA region never seen anyone include the Italian islands as part of North Africa. Unless there is some source Ex Wikipedia supporting this, they should be removed. Equally the inclusion of the Canary Islands is entirely unsupported - the citations given contain zero support for the inclusion. The US Census Bureau makes no mention of the Canaries as North Africa and the link to a graphic on the UN geographic regions is apparently mistakenly using non-colouration as a basis. The actual Wiki article on the UN regions for Africa shows clearly the country definition (supported by proper citation and found directly on https://unstats.un.org/unsd/methodology/m49/ under geographic regions definition.
4. Contradictory and incoherent country list: The country listing doubles up for example the Western Sahara and SADR - the same bloody territory - that is excluded incoherently on the map. It includes of course as noted above the strange assertion on the Canaries, the Italian islands, etc. which has no support in general usage of the term and is a de novo definition being created on wikipedia (presumably based on geological basis, but that does not figure in the geographic usage which is geo-political.

As ten years ago I participated in a prior bit of madness by a rather similar banned sockpuppet Mariam83, I will proceed to editing now. --collounsbury (talk) 11:34, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

• On the topic of the Canary Islands, one has to be a very special kind of blind to ignore geographical and topological data that asserts the observable fact that they're part of the African continent, African plate, and the North Africa region. No matter what the learned Collounsbury states about the UN regions for Africa, had they actually visited the website on https://unstats.un.org/unsd/methodology/m49/ (as they themselves suggest), they'd realise that the list of countries that form part of North Africa according to the UN for statistical purposes is a geopolitical list that cannot include the Canary islands since they're part of Spain. Heck, that list doesn't mention the Canary Islands as a country or area belonging to any world region because they simply aren't a country! The list also omits Ceuta and Melilla from the North Africa region (in fact, they don't appear on the list as part of any UN region whatsoever) because they're not sovereign nations (they're also Spanish). And yet, nobody in their right mind would contend that this means Ceuta and Melilla are not geographically part of North Africa, since they're actually located on mainland Africa.

But hey, what do I know, this is just another example of how Wikipedia favours the editor's own views rather than scientifically observable and accepted facts. The contradiction between Collounsbury's claims and the Wikipedia Africa page speaks volumes about the encyclopedic quality of Wikipedia as a whole. 5.148.51.52 (talk) 02:03, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. Western Sahara is sometimes included in West Africa. Ceuta, Melilla, the Plazas de soberanía, and the Autonomous Regions of Portugal are parts of North Africa, but the Canary Islands are a part of West Africa. A few Italian offshore islands (Pantelleria and the Pelagie Islands) are also geographically parts of North Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 02:29, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Sudan?

Is it really an unadulterated fact that Sudan is part of North Africa? Shouldn't that be in the Sub-Saharan Africa article? 41.245.142.30 (talk) 14:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, socks of Mariam83 pop up every few months to say the same thing. --Kralizec! (talk) 01:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Quite apart from that remark, do you not feel that if multiple people are bringing this up, that there may not be something valid in it without merely saying "Yeah..." ? If one looks at the geography/climate/fauna/flora/culture of Sudan we see that it has far more in common with say Chad or Uganda than Morocco or Tunisia. Likewise the population is far more like that of a Sub-Saharan nation than a Southern Mediterranean one. Having read the archives, from what I understand, it is only because the official position of the USA that "Sudan is in North Africa" that it is included here. Meanwhile actual North Africans feel otherwise(as was made clear, sometimes with vulgarity), and the satellite images, fauna, flora etc etc would suggest that Sudan is NOT North Africa. So the question then becomes...Is wikipedia merely a projection of US propaganda, or is it an independent and unbiased factual resource? 41.245.142.30 (talk) 11:13, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

• Sudan is part of the Northeast África(with Etiópia, Somaliland, etc...) and not North África(populations Berbero-Semitics). Northeast África(Sudan, Etiopia, Somalia, etc...) is majority Etiopoid/Camitic/afro-arab populations in the etno-historic factors. Only North/Northeast Sudan is North Africa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.13.252.107 (talk) 18:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The UN document [5] is the basis of the article and there Sudan is Nort Afrika.--Stone (talk) 11:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• the UN is a corruptive organization, not have legitimity..sudan is sahel.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.64.33.193 (talk) 20:44, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Sudan is not classed as being in North Africa by the people of North Africa. Mrmisr (talk) 09:14, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

This is the sa e problem as your belief that the tern Nile Valley excludes Sudan despite the sources. We go by what reliable sources say, not editors' opinions. Doug Weller talk 19:39, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

This has been questioned too much, and I believe it should be in the Sub-Saharan Africa article. 2.5 Bobux (talk) 15:53, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• Comment It appears that the UN Statistics Division is the only principle source that includes Sudan in its North Africa definition. It is not included in the definition of the African Union, the World Bank or the Encyclopedia Britannica. This issue should probably be re-addressed. Iskandar 323 (talk) 08:29, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 02:36, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Sudan not is North Africa

Sudan is Northeast Africa(Subsaharian Africa of the Northeast). North Africa are the North-Berbero-Semitic peoples("caucasoids"), and Sudanese people not is Berbero-Semitic(Sudan is a Afro-Arab country and not a caucasoid nation). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.71.79.94 (talk) 21:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• The climate of the major parts of Sudan not is North African(yellow in the map); the climate of Central Africa in the major parts of Sudan it´s here: http://br.weather.com/maps/regioesdomundo/intlhemisferico/index_large.html

I understand what you are saying but sudan is still lumped in with north african countries ,i dont consider sudan as north african either because sudanese are black and sudan is a sub saharan african country, but its not what we think now is it,it's what reliable sources say--Wikiscribe (talk) 19:32, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

First, the colour of Sudanese or their 'racial' make up has fuck all to do with whether Sudan is "North African" - there are black, 'Negroid' Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisians of unquestionable North Africaness (and in the instance of the Maghreb, genetic and archaeological suggestions that some of these populations are not related to the slave trade, but predate antiquity). The identification of the populations of North Africa by linguistic filiation says fuck all about their race - "caucasoid nation" is meaningless 19th century claptrap.

Second, climate is not a defining factor in geographical regions as such. The Maghreb, a clear part of North Africa, to take an example, has multiple climate zones - one can not in fact speak of a "North African" climate - there are climates that cover North Africa, in the plural. Sudan, like Mauretania and in fact any of the Sahara straddling countries, presents ambiguities. Sudan is both partially Saharo-North African AND sub-Saharan. More than one thing. Such categories are merely analytical ones of convenience and not things that exist as platonic ideals. Get over it. (collounsbury (talk) 18:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC))

• Sudan in dark green??? Sudan is light green in the map with Mauritania(Mauritania too have DNA of the North Africa and not is Dark green in the map, because Sudan is diferentt of Mauritania?? why??

QI prove of Sudan not is North african:

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:IQ_by_Country.png

North Africa = Dark purple(middle QI) and Sudan/Subsaarian Africa = light purple(small QI)!! This is a neurological prove!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.8.174.61 (talk) 04:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

• Demografic/etnic prove: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Demography_of_Sudan#Ethnic_groups

Ethnic groups black 52%, Arab 39%, Beja 6%, foreigners 2%, other 1%

Sudan is a subsaarian country(52%) and not a north african/arab/berber country(39%)!!! Sudan is Sahel(transition) with Mauritania!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.8.174.61 (talk) 05:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. The very name "Sudan" is a giveaway as to what region it belongs to. 41.245.185.66 (talk) 12:05, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Many people think that Caucasnoid and White are interchangeable but it is actually a misconception. Caucasnoid, Mongoliod, and Negroid are actual races. Black and White are just colors depending on how much melanin a person has in their body and are misconceptions of the definition of race. The native North African were said to have dark skin, but were Caucasians. The why European thought that they were White because when they examine skull it was Causcasnoid skull. There is also the melanin dose test on the ancient skeltons to see how much radiate off of their body. Also just because the majority of people who live in Sudan are black does not mean all of them are and the classification of a person being black differs in varies countries—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.4.83.173 70.144.7.15 (talk) 21:29, 29 August 2009 (UTC)(talk) 03:15, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

The UN document [6] is the basis of the article and there Sudan is Nort Afrika.--Stone (talk) 11:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• the UN is a corruptive organization..!this classification not is scientific; it´s a pseudoscience of obscure interests.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.114.192.174 (talk) 11:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

This whole thread only employs scientific racism as fact to “disprove” a GEOGRAPHICAL region. I have a hard time believing any of you are North African, if so, you are very Westernized. I am Maghrebi. It only takes a quick survey of any academic journal on geography to politics in order to discern Sudan as Northern. In fact, a basic understanding of history (Berlin Conference of the 1800s) would show you that today’s Egypt and Sudan were one. Additionally, there are geological and epigraphic samples to look at if you were genuinely interested. Quit dragging 4chan discussions into what should be an encyclopedic reference for the generally curious. You will realize that English Wiki, unlike others, is the only one with this questionable mapping of North Africa. Itaren (talk) 01:11, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

• Comment It is. The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 02:37, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Sudan is Sahel and not North Africa

• And the South Sudan is Central Africa..!!

The UN document [7] is the basis of the article and there Sudan is Nort Afrika.--Stone (talk) 11:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

While, the UN document may be the basis, the climate, geography, fauna, flora etc show Sudan having far more in common with Sub-Saharan Africa(where people do not speak ebonics) than with North Africa. In addition while the Northern part of Sudan is technically in the Sahara region, the largest population clusterings are in the tropical South of the country. That so many people regard Sudan as NOT being part of North Africa can not be dismissed with one UN document. Likewise, while it is not acceptable wikipedia evidence, I have friends who come from Algeria who most certainly do not consider Sudanese to be "like them". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.179.120 (talk) 10:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, said UN document has a broad "East Africa" designation, in which both Ethiopia and Somalia on the one hand, and Zimbabwe and Zambia on the other are lumped into this category. Does anyone honestly believe that Somalia and Zimbabwe share any similarities despite both being on the continent of Africa? EVERYTHING about these two states is different, linguistically, biologically, geographically, climate, fauna, flora, etc etc etc. This is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that Zimbabwe is in east Africa! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.179.120 (talk) 10:22, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. South Sudan is a part of East Africa, it is a member state of the East African Community. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 02:42, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Western Sahara Case and Flag

Western Sahara is a territory and not a country. It's actually administered by the kingdom of Morocco. The presence of Western Sahara in the table is definitely justified if the term TERRITORY is associated to Western Sahara. The flag associated to Western Sahara is presented here as if Western Sahara is a sovereign country while it's not according to the UN. The flag put beside Western Sahara is the flag of the separatist faction Polisario Front claiming independence of the Western Sahara and backed in Tindouf south Algeria. My proposal is to mention "Western Sahara territory" without flag. That's exactly what the UNHCR is mentioning in its official website.--Moroccansahraoui (talk) 09:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Western Sahara is a disputed territory. Listing Western Sahara without a flag complies with the WP:NPOV policy. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 02:48, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Sudan proof?

Is anyone having reliable proof that Sudan is North Africa, and not in Sub-Saharan Africa, or else it should be removed. Yes. 41.245.148.16 (talk) 15:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

The UN document [8] is the basis of the article and there Sudan is Nort Afrika.--Stone (talk) 11:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 02:54, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

South Sudan

Is South Sudan actually part of North Africa? Sudan was/is listed as North Africa, but surely not South Sudan? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.117.234 (talk) 16:25, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. South Sudan is a part of East Africa, it is a member state of the East African Community. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:00, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

South Sudan

Today South Sudan separated from Sudan and became a sovereign state. The map should be updated to include the border between Sudan and South Sudan. Thanks. Vis-a-visconti (talk) 23:52, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Is South Sudan part of North Africa? It is not in the sources, I know technically it is, but politically, culturally, etc it is most def not.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 08:28, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree but the U.N has decided to put it in North Africa region, which doesn't make sens. Tachfin (talk) 16:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

South Sudan is now a part of East Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:01, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Sudan and Mauritania

Sudan and Mauritania are Sahel, NOT North Africa! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.186.16.212 (talk) 10:59, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. Mauritania is a part of West Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:02, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

South Sudan

While Sudan is definitely part of North Africa, I don't think South Sudan can be, geographically or politically, considered in North Africa. I've removed this from the article. 203.206.101.76 (talk) 09:16, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

• Sudan is Sahel, not North Africa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.158.153.203 (talk) 12:07, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. South Sudan is a part of East Africa, it is a member state of the East African Community. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:04, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

sudan 2

sudan not is north africa; sudan is sahel..UN is a corruptive organization and ilegitime - pseudoscientific..only north sudan and northeast is north africa; central, south, southwest sudan is northeast of central africa.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.114.192.174 (talk) 11:07, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

and mauritania is north africa..northern tchad, northern mali, northern niger, etc.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.114.192.174 (talk) 11:09, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment The Sudan is a part of North Africa, as per the United Nations geoscheme. However, other sources also include the Sudan in East Africa and/or sub-Saharan Africa. Mauritania is a part of West Africa. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:05, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Spain

Should the Spanish areas geographically in North Africa, next to Morocco, like Ceuta, be added to the article? Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 02:45, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• Yes, they should. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Land and Water Area (Include Western Sahara)

• Main article: Exclusive economic zone

This list includes dependent territories within their sovereign states (including uninhabited territories), but does not include claims on Antarctica. EEZ+TIA is exclusive economic zone (EEZ) plus total internal area (TIA) which includes land and internal waters.

Rank	Country	Area	EEZ	Shelf	EEZ+TIA
1	Algeria	2,381,740	126,353	9,985	2,508,094
2	Libya	1,759,540	351,589	64,763	2,111,129
3	Egypt	1,001,450	263,451	61,591	1,265,451
4	Morocco	710,850	575,230	115,157	1,287,780
5	Tunisia	163,610	101,857	67,126	265,467
Total		6,018,890	1,418,480	318,622	7,437,921

• Comment Western Sahara shouldn't be inlcuded as a part of Morocco. Only Morocco and the United States recognise Western Sahara as a part of Morocco. 203.46.37.2 (talk) 03:10, 29 July 2023 (UTC)