Talk:Kurds/Archive 13

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Academic source

In general, the most reliable sources are: peer-reviewed journals; books published by university presses;

Please do not remove academic sources. Robert D. Biggs is a history professor at University of Chicago and the book itself is published by a university press. Iranic (talk) 06:32, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but exactly what does he say? The link [1]is just a snippet and it is clear that there is a caveat that might be relavant and thus we would need to add. Anyone adding something needs to have read more of the source than just a snippet. Unless we can find out what the caveat is and decide if it needs to be added, I don't think this source belongs here. On a minor point, citations should provide page numbers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 07:07, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

He says: "ethnically the Kurds are an Iranian people" so it really doesn't matter what he said after that. We have a clear sentence and quoted his exact words. Iranic (talk) 07:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it matters. I've taken this to WP:RSN#Can we use a Google books snippet as a source when a caveat is visible?. Using snippets like this is bad research. Dougweller (talk) 09:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Although I am not agree but I've removed itIranic (talk) 16:23, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

We need to qualify the statement that they are an Iranian people

The discussion so far at WP:RSN confirms my concerns about the snipped, but another issue has arisen - what does 'Iranian people' mean and does this need qualifying in any way. The Kurdish National Movement: Its Origins and Development, By Wadie Jwaideh says "they are by no means a purely Iranian people." Ethnic Groups of Africa and the Middle East: An Encyclopedia, By John A. Shoup says "an Iranian people by language, the Kurdish people are ethnically diverse due to intermarriage with other ethnic groups..." And Historical dictionary of Iraq By Edmund Ghareeb, Beth Dougherty discusses other possible origins concluding they are of mixed origins. Dougweller (talk) 10:33, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll get back to you as soon as I find a copy of that book but for now The Encyclopedia of Islam is a reliable source. ethnic identity is based on language not marriage or anything else. Iranic (talk) 17:23, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually that's not true as one of my sources says, but even if it were, we'd have to make it clear in the article. Dougweller (talk) 05:33, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Iranian peoples or Iranic peoples is no different of a theory than Germanic peoples or Slavic peoples or Turkic peoples... it is a ethno-linguistic term/grouping used by academics. By the most common academic definition, Kurds are classified as an Iranic people, just as Azeris are classified as a Turkic people, and Bulgarians are classified as a Slavic people. (despite their mixed genetic origins, cultural traits, intermarriages etc, which in the case of Azeris, is far more complex than the Kurds) See here:

• R.N Frye, "IRAN v. PEOPLES OF IRAN" in Encycloapedia Iranica. "In the following discussion of “Iranian peoples,” the term “Iranian” may be understood in two ways. It is, first of all, a linguistic classification, intended to designate any society which inherited or adopted, and transmitted, an Iranian language. The set of Iranian-speaking peoples is thus considered a kind of unity, in spite of their distinct lineage identities plus all the factors which may have further differentiated any one group’s sense of self."

Kurds fiting this category is put here:

• Bois, Th.; Minorsky, V.; Bois, Th.; Bois, Th.; MacKenzie, D.N.; Bois, Th. "Kurds, Kurdistan." Encyclopaedia of Islam. Edited by: P. Bearman , Th. Bianquis , C.E. Bosworth , E. van Donzel and W.P. Heinrichs. Brill, 2009. Brill Online. <http://www.brillonline.nl/subscriber/entry?entry=islam_COM-0544> Excerpt 1:"The Kurds, an Iranian people of the Near East, live at the junction of more or less laicised Turkey. Excerpt 2:"We thus find that about the period of the Arab conquest a single ethnic term Kurd (plur. Akrād ) was beginning to be applied to an amalgamation of Iranian or iranicised tribes. Among the latter, some were autochthonous (the Ḳardū; the Tmorik̲h̲/Ṭamurāyē in the district of which Alḳī = Elk was the capital; the Χοθα̑ίται [= al-Ḵh̲uwayt̲h̲iyya] in the canton of Ḵh̲oyt of Sāsūn, the Orṭāyē [= al-Arṭān] in the bend of the Euphrates); some were Semites (cf. the popular genealogies of the Kurd tribes) and some probably Armenian (it is said that the Mamakān tribe is of Mamikonian origin). " Excerpt 4: "In the 20th century, the existence of an Iranian non-Kurdish element among the Kurds has been definitely established (the Gūrān-Zāzā group)."
• G. Asatrian, Prolegomena to the Study of the Kurds, Iran and the Caucasus, Vol.13, pp.1-58, 2009: "The ancient history of the Kurds, as in case of many other Iranian ethnic groups (Baluchis, etc.), can be reconstructed but in a very tentative and abstract form"
• Michael G. Morony, "Iraq After the Muslim Conquest", Gorgias Press LLC, 2005. pg 265: "Kurds were only small ethnic group native to Iraq. As with the Persians, their presence along the northeastern edge of Iraq was merely an extension of their presence in Western Iran. All of the non-Persian, tribal, pastoral, Iranian groups in the foothills and the mountains of the Zagros range along the eastern fringes of Iraq were called Kurd at that time
• E. J. van Donzel, "Islamic desk reference ", BRILL, 1994. ISBN-9004097384. pg 222: "Kurds/Kurdistan: the Kurds are an Iranian people who live mainly at the junction of more or less laicised Turkey, Shi'i Iran Arab Sunni Iraq and North Syria and the former Soviet Transcaucasia. Several dynasties, such as the Marwanids of Diyarbakir, the Ayyubids, the Shaddadis and possibly the Safawids, as well as prominent personalities, were of Kurdish origin
• RUSSELL, JR 1990 « Pre-Christian Armenian Religion*, dans Aufstieg und Nieder- gang der Romischen Welt, II, 18.4, p. 2679-2692, Berlin-New York, 1990., pg 2691: "A study of the pre-Islamic religion of the Kurds, an Iranian people who inhabited southern parts of Armenia from ancient times to present, has yet to be written"[2]
• John Limbert, The Origins and Appearance of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran, Iranian Studies, Vol.1, No.2, Spring 1968, pp.41-51. p.41: "In these last areas, the historic road from Baghdad to Hamadan and beyond divides the Kurds from their Iranian cousins, the Lurs." Kurdo777 (talk) 21:59, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you indeed for these valuable sources. I'm still waiting for my copy of 'Discoveries' to arrive.Iranic (talk) 02:04, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I didn't have time to cite them one by one in the article yesterday. I see that you've already done that, so thanks for that. Kurdo777 (talk) 21:45, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

kurds are not iranic !

why don't you let us to show our own sources ?? our genetic is quite different im a kurdish guy from iran & im wondering why do you keep trying to assimilate our people i never liked your language when i was at school you were making us to read & exam your stupid poems & books &.... is it fair?? i mean we are not persian & we never gone be & you never gone assimilate us — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.100.177.9 (talk) 07:02, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

This is not a place to conduct your political campaigns, however firmly believed and however valid. Instead of making assertions please cite sources. Wikipedia does not care about truth, it only cares about verifiable facts. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 08:43, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

propaganda

it says that kurds are estimated 30 to 38 million, but that is pankurdism. for example they are big difference between Sorani and Kurmanji and which using different scripts. why you don't put then Turks, Gagauz, Meskhetian Turks, Azerbaijani, Turkmens and Turkish Cypriot together and call them "Turkish people"? mh.. yea just wondering. the problem is the kurdish militant ideology which postulates a pan-kurdic identity marred by kurdish nationalism. 88.64.182.125 (talk) 16:04, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

The numbers seem to have what we call reliable sources, see WP:RS. If you have different numbers with resources that are at least reliable, bring them here. Dougweller (talk) 17:08, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

you are actually talking about kurdic people, which is a collection of ethnic groups like Sorani, Kurmanji and Kermashani. they are speaking different languages and they are just connected particularly by belonging to the same language family. but the discussion of the question of ethnic kurdish groups has been marred by kurdish nationalism which postulates a pan-kurdic identity. 88.64.182.125 (talk) 17:42, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

All these groups you're talking about refer to themselves as Kurds. They might speak a (slightly) different language but that is completely irrelevant to their ethnicity. ~ Zirguezi 22:20, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

This groups refer themselves as Kurd to claim national territory called "Kurdistan". lol. The Kurdic People have a kurdish identity, but no ‘kurdish’ ethnicity, culture, or language. It is influenced by pan-nationalism ideas, to implied a large territory. some examples: the kurdic groups under the ottoman rule are ethnical and culturally different then in Iranian Kurdistan. even the little Kurdish Regional Government have developed two faction with there own identity. (because of regionally-patriotic reasons it's called since 2005 as "Kurdistan Regional Government") And Kurdic people (inclusive Zazaki) in Turkey feel culturally like Anatolian with the main city Diyarbakir. And they also vote for Erdogan. And alot of them have were born to a Turkish mother, for example Abdullah Öcalan. 88.64.182.125 (talk) 23:54, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

No. They refer to themselves as Kurds because that's what they are. They claim the area of Kurdistan because they think it belongs to them. Also it's a pretty bold statement to say that there is no Kurdish language, culture and ethnicity when we have entire sourced articles about it. I understand you point. Which is that ethnically different groups are united under the name of "Kurd", but I that it's partly wrong and already described in this article. If you do insist on pressing your argument please cite a few sources so we can have a factual discussion ~ Zirguezi 08:41, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

All this is effected by the nazigerman propaganda. And that's not my words.. Kurdic people see themselves as Aryan. In this they proceeded so far as to invent relics of the "old Kurdish" religion to Zardusht. but today it's evolved to a pan-kurdic ideology. and you are supporting this modern pan ideology by title "kurdish" language, ethnicity or culture. this pan-kurdism never exist in history. I understand the point. Which is that this people share a kurdish identity, but they don't share the same language, ethnicity or culture. read literature. I can't actually find the sources, but in few days i will put it here. ~ 88.64.182.125 (talk) 01:25, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm looking forward to your sources cause thats a lot of claims you're making ~ Zirguezi 08:37, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Some of the arguments are relatively right , but we can't invent words here in Wikipedia : I mean the comparison between Turkish - Turkic groups and Kurdish - Kurdic groups is reasonable , but the term Kurdic is not famous and can't be used here Neologism is prohibited in Wikipedia . The term Kurd is an umbrella which include many different groups , and yes it has modern political motives : but what can we do in Wikipedia ? --Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:06, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Kurdic people can be considered a subgroup of Iranic people , but it seems in all Western middle East , the border between all Iranic language people has vanished and they are called Kurd : as an example the Daylimate Zazaiki in Turkey are considered Kurds as well as Fyil's in Iraq ( that can be considered a group of Lurs alternatively ) and so on : over all that is a matter of ethnic identity rather than Genetics or lingual topics . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:41, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I am not native english speaker but translated by me: "Before the reconstruction of the history of Kurdish nationalism is therefore usually set the first deconstruction of nationalist myths. In this context I would like to say that only the very term "Kurdish people" in that it is the category of "nation" implicitly requires the study of the development of Kurdish society until the 20th Century has facilitated more than hindered. Because this term covers just those with access nationalizing its heterogeneity, which represents my opinion, something essential to the Kurdish society. German Text by Guenter Max Behrendt. 88.64.182.125 (talk) 08:38, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I can't find any English version of his book and this is pretty badly translated. From what I understand he calls for the term "Kurdish people" to be further defined and explored, because at the time of writing the term was only used to refer to nationalistic Kurds. However I think these days the terms Kurdish people or Kurds for that matter have a more general definition and cover pretty much every Kurd, regardless of their nationalistic properties. ~ Zirguezi 09:23, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Because of Globalization I share your view. But people should understand the heterogeneity of Kurdish society, instead of begin arrogant. The author says that the pan-nationalism concept of Kurdish people is only a reaction of turkish, armenian and nazigerman nationalism. Kurdish People, also known as Kurds are a panethnicity population. 07:51, 6 May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.64.185.104 (talk)

Edit request on 29 April 2012

On the Kurdish page, full first reference needs to be given to "Reynolds" in the explanation of who the Kurdish people are.

DCReports (talk) 15:59, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. — Bility (talk) 21:58, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Saddam Hussein

Why is there nothing mentioned about Saddam Hussein's persecution of these people in Iraq? This is clearly a significant gap in the discussion of this ethnicity. If I were a better historian I would assume the responsibility. Perhaps I need to become a relevant historian?Soderstromk (talk) 04:36, 3 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Soderstromk (talk • contribs) 00:21, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Population numbers

Sorry but which sources say the number is at least 19 million?? Both CIA and Konda say it is about 14. million. I am just trying to understand otherwise i think someone is as usual trying to exagerrate the number of the kurdish population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.53.193.75 (talk) 18:58, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

If no one objects in the coming days I'll update the numbers as most of them seem to be off. For example it says that the population in Turkey is between 14 and 19.5 million whereas both sources says it's at least 19 million so I don't know where the 14 million comes from. Also a lot of the sources have been updated and don't reflect the number mentioned in this article. ~ Zirguezi 11:12, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

That would be great. We have a problem with editors, mainly IPs, coming along and changing figures, often changing sourced figures, with no explanation. Sometimes it's just plain number vandalism, sometimes it seems to be pov. Dougweller (talk) 12:28, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Research shows that the Kurdish population in Turkey

According to research by the population of Turkey Konda' '2007 ': Based on the 73,000,000 population. Turkey TURKSTAT Official population: 70,500,000 people

According to the survey participants' ------ 'According to a native Konda' ----- 'According to the estimation KONDA many children

Kurdish-Zaza population: 9.02% (7,600,000) ------- 13.4% (9,782,000) -------- 15.6% (11,445,000)

Proportion of the population TURKSTAT: 6,359,000 --- 9,447,000 --- 10,998,000 people

'Native Konda research'

Kurdish: 11.97%, Zaza: 1.01

' 'American Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) According to estimates from 2011 Turkey Population: 78,785,548 people (Turkey TURKSTAT official population: 73,722,988 people)

Kurdish-Zaza population: 16-18% (12,592,000-14,166,000) ---- TurkStat official population proportion of persons: (11,792,000-13,266,000) people

' 'Native Republic of Turkey State Institute of Statistics Census:

1927 Census of population: 13,629,000 people - 8.69% of the Kurdish-speaking population konuşuan --- Kurdish population: 1,184,000 people

1950 Census of population: 20,947,000 people - 9.88% of the Kurdish-speaking population --- Kurdish-speaking population: 2,070,000 people

1965 Census of population: 31,391,000 people - 8.98% of the Kurdish-speaking population --- Kurdish-speaking population: 2,817,000 people

' 'Data From Ethnologue Languages ​​of the World organization in the U.S., PA Andrews compared to 2001' '; Turkey's ethnic origins:

86.21 percent of Turkey

8:36 percent of the Kurdish

2:14 percent of Caucasian

1.63 percent of the Arab

Zaza 0:53 percent

Laz 0:02 percent

Other 1 percent

' '2011 Consensus research company, the results of his research throughout Turkey' ':

Turkey's population is 73,722,988, 57,089,942 who say Turk, Kurd 8,693,293 Member

' 'Research on the National Security Council the 2000 survey:

The Turkish population: 50-55 million

Kurdish-zaza Population: 12,600,000 - 10,000,000 + (note stated that 2.5 million people kurdish)

' 'The EU Eurobarometer Survey of 2005: was still reported as the main language of the Turkish Kurds into the area and found to be 93 percent of the remaining 7 percent of the population were exceeded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.5.26.74 (talk) 21:32, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Erroneous image caption

After the description of the image File:Kurds and Catholic.jpg, which is currently shown in the section "Origins", today was changed on Commons, I found that here it still carries the old caption "Two Kurds with a Catholic priest." It is highly unlikely that the person in the middle is a catholic priest. It is far more likely that it is an orthodox priest. --Túrelio (talk) 07:41, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Changed it ~ Zirguezi 17:18, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Why isn't there any terrorism reference?

Kurds are killing people in the middle east as a hitman of eastern powers. I call people to realize Kurdish terrorist acts. Some day this may come to your homelands too. I offer to add a paragraph that Kurds are known as terrorists where they live. Any Kurdish settled place suffer terrorism today.--Whatislife (talk) 07:40, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Kurds are not terrorists. There are Kurdish individuals who are terrorists. Note the distinction. And terrorism is mentioned in the article. --JorisvS (talk) 08:01, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Are all Irish IRA members...?Your comments are more than offencive.....When I read such, I realise how true the comment is....No friends but the mountains....Should have been removed years ago? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.27.38.233 (talk) 21:29, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Western Turkey

120930 opening paragraph "The Kurds number about 30 million, the majority living in West Asia, with significant Kurdish diaspora communities in the cities of western Turkey..." The Turkey part should be SouthEast Turkey (esp the region adjacent to modern NE Syria and N Iraq). Western Turkey/Anatolia would be the the coast along the Aegean Sea, not an area heavily populated by Kurds. Bhug (talk) 19:02, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

That part of the sentence refers to the diaspora which refers to Kurds living outside the of "Kurdistan" area. I think Istanbul and a few other cities in west Turkey have pretty big population of Kurds ~ Zirguezi 08:00, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Kurdish nude error

Kurdish population countries in the region research and exaggerated ethnic structure of the population

Turkey, Konda Kurdish and zaz 15% , Cia ethnic population of Turkey and the Kurdish zaza 16-18%,zaza Kurdish population in other studies, and 10-16%

Iraq's, ethnic structure 15-17% of the Kurdish population of

Iran, of the Kurdish population in 6-8%

Syria, the Kurdish 6-9% of the population may be true

research and scientific data are actual population,population ratios should be revised — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.160.210.119 (talk) 17:40, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Famous Kurdish People Pictures

Hi,

You only added Leyla Zana, Barzani, Saladin, etc. There are many world-known Kurds in the world. For example; why don't you add Widad Akrawi?

Here is her photo :http://www.flickr.com/photos/29325846@N07/4730059503/in/photostream

On the other hand Belçim Bilgin Erdoğan is a talented Kurdish actress who went to Cannes. I mean, there are few examples about Kurds in Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.174.135.253 (talk) 21:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I made that banner and TBH I just added the most famous Kurds that I knew off. If we can get a consensus on show I can make a new one ~ Zirguezi 23:24, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Iranic people?

Kurdish people are different from iranic people you can't just say that 50 million people are iranic it's wrong different culture and traditions mind as well change the article name to Iranian people

Iranic in the sense that they speak an Iranic language, have Iranic traditions, belonged to (and some still do) Iranic religions (Yezidism, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism), are genetically closer to their Iranic neighbours than to their other neighbours (Arabs, Turks), and most identify with this identity. If you, however, feel that there are scholars and/or academics out there that believe that Kurds are not Iranic, feel free to mention them here and we'll be able to continue this discussion.

Regards, --Hvakshahtrah (talk) 17:21, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Other religions

Jews and Christians who lived among the Kurds were not Kurds and shouldn't be counted as such. Hexagram is a very popular figure in Islamic art (see Commons:Category:Hexagrams in Islam), I doubt this one has anything to do with "Kurdish Jews".--Rafy talk 19:59, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Do you have any sources for this?. It's a bit strange to claim that Jews and Christians living among Kurds aren't Kurds. Especially considering the fact that Jewish Kurds and Christian Kurds are very common in Iraqi Kurdistan ~ Zirguezi 19:14, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

This is a very basic fact for anyone with minimum knowledge of the region. Every single scholarly work on minorities in Kurdistan speak of Jews and Christians as two distinct ethnoreligious communities.

This source describes the Kurds as "mostly Sunni, and the rest Shi'ite" living among other minorities such as Muslim Turks and Arabs and various Christian and Jewish sects. another one also describes Jews and Christians in Kurdistan as "religious, ethnic and cultural minorities".

Let's also not forget that all censuses in the region count Jews, Christians and Kurds as three distinct ethnoreligious groups.--Rafy talk 20:40, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

So, you are going to take Kurdish Christians to AfD? Seriously? And Kurdish Jews? Get those deleted first and then come back here. Dougweller (talk) 21:35, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Both those articles seem to have a fair amount of WP:RS. I note that recent conversion to Christianity amongst the Kurds has been a feature. Does a Kurd cease to be a Kurd on conversion? Also, why can there be British Jews, Italian Jews, Arab Jews etc etc but not Kurdish Jews? DeCausa (talk) 22:17, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Both of those articles suffer some major flows. While there is no doubt that some medieval western travellers and distant Christians called the mountain Nestorians "Kurds" as did Marco Polo and that one dubious "Coptic source", Kurd back then merely meant nomad regardless of ethnic origin. An example of this is evident in the way Arabs were dubbed "Kurds of Suristan" by Persians. I will take this issue to that article.

Kurdish Jews is a name used to denote Jews who lived among Kurds, they were also called "Assyrian Jews" by the way. Just as Persian Jews, Turkish Jews, Arab Jews, are not ethnically Persian, Turkish or Arab, Kurdish Jews are not ethnically Kurdish.

Of course there is no doubt that there are many modern converts to Christianity and less to Judaism among the Kurds who still retain their ethnic identity, they just shouldn't be confused with historical Jewish and Christian communities there which pre-date the Kurds.--Rafy talk 00:44, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I take it that no one would object if I replaced this section with what the Encyclopaedia of Islam had to say on the subject.--Rafy talk 04:10, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

You might get an informed response if you tell us what it says or if possible give us a link. Dougweller (talk) 11:25, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Especially if you are replacing the current text. As that is sourced I'm assuming you're only talking about adding material, however.— Preceding unsigned comment added by DeCausa (talk • contribs) 14:54, 3 January 2013

The EOI vol.5 pp.474-475 clearly states that Christianity flourished in Kurdistan until the the Mongol invasions, it also says that the ancestors of the Kurds could have followed the Sassanian official religion before turning to Islam.

By the way the only reference here given to Kurdish Jews deals with the Jews in Kurdistan, more relevant to Kurdistan than here imo.--Rafy talk 14:56, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Isvady says "The Talmud holds that Jewish deportees were settled in Kurdistan 2800 years ago by the Assyrian king Shalmaneser ... As indicated in the Talmud, the Jews eventually were given permission by the rabbinic authorities to convert local Kurds." [3]. Dougweller (talk) 16:38, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Izady the expert of pre-history of the ME, Babylonian Judaism, Syriac Christianity, Anatolian languages, is a very dubious source. You can find countless complaints about his claims everywhere.

If you can access JSTOR you my want to check some reviewed papers on the subject of Jewish Adiabene like this and this. Needless to say, they don't support Izady's claims.--Rafy talk

Ancient Fathers of Kurds

Lullubis are not fathers of Kurds-also the Crytiians are a tribe, not race-. I read almast all encylopedias about Kurds and only Wikipedia claims that Lullubis are one of the fathers of Kurds. Lullubis are fathers of Lurs and they lived in the today's Luristan area. Encylopedia Americana, Soviet enclopedia, Collier's encylopedi, encylopedia Britannica...Non of them mentions Lullubis in the article about Kurds. There is only one source about that and because of that you don't tend to delete this information. But I can show you many sources that claims Kurds are Arabs or fathers of Kurds are Turks. So what now? If I add them and show sources for them, you don't delete them? Kurds are simply Medo-Gutians. But you claim that almost all of ancient people of Middle East are Kurds. Arabs claims that Kurds are Arabs and you can find many sources about it. Turks claims that Kurds are Turks and you can find many sources about it. Even Hungarians claims that Kurds are Magyars and you can find many sources about it. For example, Turkish author Ali Tayyar Önder wrote in his book that Kurds, Circassians, Bosnians, most of ancient Middle Easterns are Turks. So what now? If I add these bullshites and show you "sources" about it-Ali Tayyar's books- you accept it? I mean there are so many "sources" about everything. My advice to you, if a "source" that doesn't written by a Kurdologist, do not accept it. I want to correct this page but I cannot. Please help... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.174.135.194 (talk) 11:26, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Crytiians were a tribe, not a racial group. And Lullubi region is today's Lorestan. Just look this map: http://www.azerbaijans.com/content_364_tr.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.174.135.194 (talk) 11:51, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 27 February 2013

Some population figures at this source "http://www.institutkurde.org/en/kurdorama/" is not included at that page. I want to edit , and add some missing figures. For example population figures in Italy and Norway etc. Thank you ...

U.yilmaz (talk) 15:16, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please make your request in a "change X to Y" format. Without your indicating the exact figures you want to add, and where you want to add them, it's hard to evaulate your proposal. Rivertorch (talk) 18:05, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 28 February 2013

Please add 25.000 Kurds in Denmark. Thank You.

http://www.olestig.dk/tyrkiet/index.html

U.yilmaz (talk) 19:19, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Could you please provide the exact URL that states there are 25.000 Kurds in Denmark? GoingBatty (talk) 15:07, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Done - referenced http://www.olestig.dk/sprog/kurdisk.html -GoingBatty (talk) 15:13, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 March 2013

Related ethinic Group Balouch)

Askani321 (talk) 14:13, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 14:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Pictures

Why aren't there any pictures of famous Kurds above the infobox? I would change that, but I don't have the rights. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saupoet (talk • contribs) 13:21, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

there is picture you can use it Kurdish People.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baran Azad (talk • contribs) 17:38, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

AFAIK the image was deleted due to some copyright issues. You can try placing individual pictures as in this template to avoid this issue in the future.--Kathovo talk 12:49, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Kurds in Lebanon

The guy who removed the text and claimed there are no Kurds in Lebanon and Israel, can explain what is this BBC report about? Roboskiye (talk) 22:07, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Because Mhallamis are not ethnic Kurds, the article in Wikipedia itself took much of its content from the now redirect Muslim Assyrians, There is no denying that some Mhallamis identify as Kurds as others prefer Arabs or Kurds, afaik most simply call themselves Mhallamis. Same goes for those Jews whom language is called Kurdit in modern Israeli Hebrew although it is actually Aramaic and has nothing to do with Kurdish, hence the confusion.--Kathovo talk 12:45, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm talking about Kurds, who speak Kurdish, identify themselves as Kurds and number about 100 000 in a tiny country called Lebanon. Roboskiye (talk) 00:25, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the content of that Persian BBC article is but I can assure you that there are no other substantial "Kurdish" communities in Lebanon other than those Mhallamis.--Kathovo talk 11:06, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 April 2013

As you can see according to reference (7 ^ a b c d e f g h i j k The cultural situation of the Kurds, A report by Lord Russell-Johnston, Council of Europe, July 2006.) Kurdish people in Great Britain are only 90,000, which is completely an accurate surveying because it has been conducted in 2006. if we look at the recent surveying which was conducted in 2009, it shows that the Kurdish community in great Britain are approximately 200,000. please see the reference below "Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies" (2009), Workplace Problems Among Kurdish Workers in London: Experiences of an ‘Invisible’ Community and the Role of Community Organisations as Support Networks, retrieved 15 April 2012.

please correct this.

Ari

Goran85 (talk) 09:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Collage created - can someone copy-paste it to the article?

I created a collage of famous Kurds:

|image =

|caption = Notable Kurds:
Dlawer Ala'Aldeen • Saladin • Sharaf Khan Bidlisi Abdullah Öcalan

Can someone add it to the article? I can't edit! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.99.144.141 (talk) 09:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Not a Muslim community

While a large percentage of Kurds are Muslim, to be in another religion or convert to another religion does not remove someone from being a Kurd. We learn in the article of "recent Kurdish [Christian] converts", a resurgence of Zoroastrianis, and the Yazidi. The Kurds are clearly not homogenous religiously, and are not really a religious community, but an ethnic group wtih multiple religious communities inside it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:21, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Freeboy25 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

ABOUT FAMOUS KURDS

Can anybody add Al-Jazari - Mustafa Barzani - Abdullah Ocalan - Şivan Perwer - Feleknas Uca In to notable table. I can not edit it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freeboy25 (talk • contribs) 21:30, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

This seems to be a reasonable request, although I have no idea where we draw the line on adding people to the infobox. One specific reservation: Al-Jazari's article says he was "Arab or Kurdish". If you can provide a completely neutral, independent, reliable source that says he was Kurdish, I'd be fine with it. Otherwise, I wish you'd pick someone else to avoid bringing ethnic or tension to the article. Rivertorch (talk) 05:41, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for answer. I cant provide completely Al Jazari's nation. But we can add Eren Derdiyok instead of Al Jazari — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freeboy25 (talk • contribs) 08:56, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

 Done. No one has registered an objection, so I've added them. I'm glad to see there's a woman in the bunch. Rivertorch (talk) 20:14, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

thank you so much :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freeboy25 (talk • contribs) 20:38, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. Please sign your talk page posts either by clicking the signature icon above the edit window or by typing four tildes (like this: ~~~~). Rivertorch (talk) 21:33, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Abdullah Öcalan is the head of a terrorist organization. It seems offensive to include him. Cavann (talk) 22:17, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I wondered if anyone would notice that. The way I chose to look at it, these are images of notable people and he's a notable person. I certainly have no objection to replacing him with someone else, although I'm not sure that "offensive to include him" is an rationale that hews to policy or guideline. Rivertorch (talk) 05:46, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

What about Yasar Kemal, Yilmaz Güney or Luigi Colani (who himself stated that he is of Kurdish ancestry)?

Edit request on 19 May 2013

Hi, can you add a picture of Abdullah Öcalan amoung other kurds in the Headline "kurds", because he is a famous kurdish leader for the kurds. He is the founder of PKK organisation and is also famous worldwide.

Ultraqs (talk) 06:35, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Rivertorch (talk) 09:29, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Shaushka's edits

@Shaushka, i told you several times, please stop your POV-push. If you have sources, show us. Otherwise dont deform articles/categories.--Gomada (talk) 12:44, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Ismail I not a Kurdish

There is picture of him in Kurdish famous people but he is a Turkish leader of Safevi and you can read his "diwan" if you know the Turkish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.182.64.239 (talk) 23:11, 26 May 2013 (UTC) BAYINDIR TÜRKMEN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.228.143.223 (talk) 23:31, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

More famous Kurd

Hi, there are more famous Kurd ; Darin Zanyar, Ahmet Kaya, Namosh, Sadet Karabulut and Özlem Çekiç, Adnan Karim, Widad Akrawi, Yosef Shiloach, Mehmed Uzun and Simko Shikak can any administrator add them in to table? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.102.219.196 (talk) 16:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Improving this article

What would the users here say are the major points in which this article has to be improved so that it can get a better assessment?

For those interested, I've been working on adding a lot of information to this page, the draft of which can be found on my userpage. As of know, I only need to add references, if anyone wants to help with that, feel free. However, additional sections should be added in the future. Could someone give me some feedback concerning the structure, writing style etc.? Znertu (talk) 16:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Article not very scientific

This article has several issues, which, if resolved, would greatly improve its accuracy and quality. Here are A FEW examples of SOME passages and issues -- the following list is not exhaustive:

• • • 1) Connecting the etymology of "kurd" to ANY Sumerian term is not reasonable, for this would require a detailed and plausible explanation on (A) how this toponym became an ethnonym and (B) how it travelled through at least 1100 years and reached Kurds, who adopted it (while the first Iranian source with any term that could be linked to the Kurds (Middle Persian kwrt-) is from the much later AD times). The sources for this hypothesis are misrepresented (Asatrian does not readily accept the link).

The only POSSIBLY PLAUSIBLE hypothesis is the Middle Persian etymology of kwrt- (kurd), mentioned e.g. by the renowned and accepted scholar Nyberg. Even if you accept this as the etymology of Kurd, it must be pointed out that this ethnonym did not specify the same peoples as today in Middle Persian times ("Kurd" was a (possibly negative) collective (probably Persian) term for certain nomadic tribes living the Zagros mountains that were deemed dangerous).

N.B. the Sumerian hypothesis rests on practically no serious, accepted and discussed scholarly source, while the Middle Persian term kwrt- (kurd) is known and discussed by major reputable scholars in the field (Nyberg, MacKenzie, Paul, etc.).

RESULT: The Sumerian hypothesis does not meet the scholarly standards to justify a mentioning.

SUGGESTION: Completely delete the Sumerian etymology and merely suggest a POSSIBLE root in Middle Persian kwrt- (kurd) and cite e.g. Nyberg, Manual of Pahlavi and at least one manuscript where this word is found as a source.

• • • 2) The tone of the article is rather unscientific, i.e. it is not neutral and strictly objective, but rather hints at an idiosyncratic "ideology" or "concept" the author(s?) have in mind. One example (of many):

"Nonetheless, Ludwig [sic! - the surname is Paul] writes that linguistics does not provide a definition for when a language becomes a dialect, and thus, non-linguistic factors contribute to the ethnic unity of some of the said groups, namely the Kurmanj, Kalhur, and Guran"

This passage is completely irrelevant for the ETYMOLOGY of the term "Kurd" and rather appears to be some sort of JUSTIFICATION of something.

RESULT: Like a thread that is weaved through the whole article, there is a constant - although implicit - anxiety to uphold the ideas (whether or not justified) that the Kurds are indigenous and all of the people being called "Kurds" today can justifiably be called Kurds, which, as a sidenote, is by no means communis opinio, cf. the discussion about (and by members of) the Zazaki speaking people or the Gurani speaking people, to mention but some examples).

SUGGESTION: Delete irrelevant, misplaced or redundant passages, strictly provide necessary, accurate information that applies to each section's topic and follows common opinion in research. If necessary, create a new section for specific issues of identity.

• • • 3) The article contains tautologies (connected with point 2 above)., i.e. statements/concepts that cannot be falsified and are by no means unique to the Kurds and hint at non-scientific motives. A good example for that is the term "indigenous" in connection with the origin of the Kurds.

The claim that the Kurds are "indigenous" to the countries they live in is not meaningful, let alone scientifically proven or even plausible. The quoted source is not a scholarly source with an argument that can be traced back to a number of research papers, but merely a very dubious statement by a non-expert in an (social sciences) encyclopaedia dealing with a modern phenomenon (the developing world). Furthermore, the following passage is a pure tautology:

"The Kurdish people are believed to be of heterogenous origins combining a number of earlier tribal or ethnic groups including Median, Lullubi, Guti, Cyrtians, Carduchi. They have also absorbed some elements from Semitic, Turkic and Armenian people."

The very statement could be stated about the Iranians as a whole, and in a similar fashion about almost every people on this planet. Yet we would not describe the Iranians as a mix of various ancient peoples, as we wouldn't to it with the Germans, but we follow the identity of the superstrate and thrace THAT people back. An ethnicity is usually the result of a migration, with a superstrate (in this case the Iranians) usually imposing its language on one or more substrates, but importing genetic material from it/them to varying degrees. The adopted and common norm with all other cases is to refer to a people in terms of the superstrate and not to every possible genetic influence, i.e. we speak of the Germans who descend from the Germanic people, not the Celts/Sorbs/Huns/Romans/Sarmathians etc. AND Germans, all of whom have let traces in the German ethnogenesis before and after the migration of the Germanic people. Similarly, we usually refer to the Turks as a people originally from the Siberian steppe and Western Mongolia that migrated to present Antolia at some point. Furthermore, why stop at the mentioned "earlier tribal or ethnic groups", why is there no mentioning of the Persians, Parthians, and several modern Iranian peoples as a further source of influence as well as the ancient Elamite people, who undoubtedly lived in Iran before the Iranians and had a certain influence on Western Iranians (i.e. Kurds)?

Moreover, almost the entire Iraqi part inhabited by Kurds today was inhabited by the ancient Assyrians many hundreds of years before the Kurds migrated to these areas (i.e. the "Kurdish" cities of Erbil, Mosul or Kirkuk were all Assyrian/Aramaic cities and still bear Assyrian names (Erbil = Arbela etc.) -- the Aramaic/Assyrian people still dwell in those areas as a people distinct from the Kurds today and have retained their distinct identity. Hence the notion that the Kurds are an indigenous minority in all the countries where they live is evidently false.

The Kurds as a population (not necessary people!) were first mentioned in medieval times, their present identity probably formed at a much later stage. Thus the oldest acceptable age of the "Kurds" as an entity lies in medieval times, if one wants to adhere to common practice in academia. (i.e. apply the same scientific and scholarly standards on this topic as on every other people in history).

RESULT: In its present state, the article appears to be arguing in favour of a presupposed (historical) concept of the entity "Kurd" and hence relies on dubious, idiosyncratic arguments involving tautologies, rather than describing the Kurdish people and history in a scientific, objective way adherent to common practice in academia.

SUGGESTION: Entirely remove passages such as the above that are based on tautologies and non-falsifiable arguments; remove "trivial statements" ("indigenous" etc.) that appear to be rather "arguments" and make the article appear politically motivated. Apply the same standards of description as with all other peoples.

[There a many more changes this article would require to meet the encyclopaedic standards, but I would suggest to start with the points that I mentioned.]

92.229.63.62 (talk) 02:46, 3 July 2013 (UTC)Charles William Parker

You've made some very valid points, some of which I don't entirely agree with, but I'll get back on those later. First and foremost there's a more important issue though; namely, there's a whole lot of different styles of references being used. Would you (as in: all contributors) agree to stick to Template:Citation? Znertu (talk) 21:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi - thanks for your reply! I am by no means an experienced Wikipedia editor, so I have no clue what you mean by template citation and that stuff. I'm just an Academic working in the field (amongst others) who gave his input. I am not going to edit any article on Wikipedia due to the fact that Wikipedia has proven to be highly susceptible to group action by cooperating (and often biased) moderators and is not peer reviewed. However, I am curious about the points where you do not agree with me, so feel free to point them out.

My apologies for the late response.

1. As you can see, Hennerbichler believes it could have been adopted by several peoples throughout the centuries to denote mountain dwellers who lived in more or less the same area. I, personally, believe that the Carduchians form the direct ancestors of the Kurds. Judging by their language (probably Iranic), name (Gordyene->Koord), region and date of attestation (their last mention coincide more or less with the first mention of Kurds, and their place of habitation was also a place were the earliest Kurds were said to have lived). 2. Agree 3. The first mention of Kurds was actually in ancient times, and undisputed as an ethnic group in medieval times. Kurds also have been longer in present-day Iraqi Kurdistan longer than is often assumed, but if we go back to the foundation of those cities, Kurds are indeed not their founders.Znertu (talk) 22:30, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Update of 8 July

So I edited the article quite a bit.

Rewritten:

• intro
• etymology (more comprehensive)
• religion (first gave information about the founders and sacred texts of each religion)

Added:

• multiple historical sections
• multiple cultural sections

If one has any comments, please put them here.

Still to be done:

• cuisine
• literature
• genetics
• expand history sections
• expand some of the other cultural sections (music, women)
• adress some of the other issues in this talk page

Znertu (talk) 22:48, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

You did great job, but your intro is a little bit too much POV & incorrect. It's OK to call West Asia as Kurdish motherland, but calling them "indigenous" people may assume they're the same as Basques in Europe. Western Asia is also motherland of many other Iranian peoples, as same as Europe is for >90% modern peoples in Europe, but it doesn't make them indigenous. Such ultra-nationalist claims are common elsewhere, especially among Central Asia and Balkan. Second thing is popular urban myth about "largest ethnic group without a state". Just in India you'll find at least four larger ethnic groups: Biharis (105 mil.), Tamils (77 mil.), Gujaratis (70 mil.) and Malayalis (36 mil.). Wikipedia as encyclopedia should deal with facts, not nationalist myths. --HistorNE (talk) 16:51, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

HistorNE, first of all, please stop using the term "ultra-nationalist".

"Kurds are often regarded as the largest ethnic group without a state" This sentence does NOT say they are the largest, it says they are often regarded as the largest stateless nation and it's a fact that many sources describe them as such, myth or not they do. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:14, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

By the way dear HistorNE, please revise your own user page. Babak Khorramdin has never been claimed by the Armenians. Armenians are Apostolic Christians, not Muslims or Zoroastrian. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:17, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Such claims were pushed in intro long time ago but were excluded, now somebody has inserted them back. If something is obviously wrong, then there's no needed to insert it, especially not in introduction. --HistorNE (talk) 19:20, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

"obviously wrong" according to whom? According to you? Please provide sources. There are sources that do call them the largest stateless nation, I haven't seen a source that denies it. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:33, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I mentioned four ethnic groups only from India which are demographically larger and don't have own state. Please search former discussions, there are plenty of them and conclusion was always the same, we don't need to lose time for do it one more time. --HistorNE (talk) 19:37, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Dear HistorNE, no matter what, I can't take your words as facts. The New York Times and at least 5 book call them the largest stateless nation. I don't have any reason not to believe them. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:42, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Of course sources are most important but as I said, it's obviously wrong and there has been endless including-excluding of that sentence despite "sources". You can find more of them in article Stateless nation. If you're not sure what to do, consult some administrator for opinion. --HistorNE (talk) 19:52, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

You are the one who is disputing the content, not me. --Երևանցի ^talk 20:08, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

@HistorNE: thank you, but that line was already present, and since it was well-sourced, I kept it in. It's just a matter of how one views it, the language is Iranic, which indeed isn't West Asian in origin, but the ethnogenesis of the Kurds, as well as the largest part of the people's genetics stem from the Middle East. Furthermore, the difference between Kurds and those populations of India you mentioned, is that those populations have their own regions (Gujaritis have Gujarat for example), which Kurds don't (except for Iraqi Kurdistan and Kordestan province, which only cover a small part of Kurdistan), and most importantly, the Kurds are actively pushing for an independent country.Znertu (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

No problem, it can surely be mentioned if sourced but surely not in intro since it's incorrect. That's why I put it down, with explanation. I don't get ethnogenesis part, there are Turcophone Kurdish tribes, Arabized Kurdish tribes, Kurdish-speaking Turks and Arabs, etc. (see Iranica: Kurdish tribes). Concept that ethnogenesis is related to people/nation has died with Nazi Germany. Even genetic analizes of Kurgan graves show proto-Indo-Europeans were of heterogenic origin, so expecting that modern peoples/nations are sharing same genes is ridiculous. Furthermore, not all Kurds are pushing for an independent country - majority of Kurds in Turkey for sure, but Kurds in Iraq are satisfied with autonomy and their leaders didn't expressed will for uniting with formers, and Kurds in Iran don't push even for autonomy. --HistorNE (talk) 18:33, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

What are you even talking about? Ethnogenesis means the formation of an ethnicity, and the Kurdish ethnicity formed in the Middle East, not outside of it. Hence, the Kurdish ethnicity is indigeneous to the Middle East. Additionally, the Kurds are genetically largely West Asian with a signicifant input of Iranic tribes. That's why they cluster more closely with neighbouring peoples than with (distant) Iranics like Pashtuns. Znertu (talk) 16:13, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't doubt Kurdish ethnicity has formed in the Middle East, but 99% others also did. Including later ethnicities like Turkish or earlier like Assyrian. On such basis you can call all current ethnicities in West Asia as indigeneous. --HistorNE (talk) 17:04, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Not all of them (the term Turk existed before they came to the ME, for example), but most of them did, yeah. That still doesn't exclude that the Kurdish one sprang from the ME, and most importantly, that Kurds genetically are overwhelmingly native (just like others).

History Question

Opinions needed. So, I found this book (which is also cited, indirectly, in the article for Kurdish Christians): Syrische Akten Persischer Martyr. I have the full PDF of this book, and on pages 74-75 the following passage is indeed found:

Als er dahin gelangte , wunderten sich seine Verwandten sehr und die ganze Stadt (so) ward christlich. Darnach begehrte Säbhä aus dem Culturlande ins Gebirge zu reisen.Auf der Wanderung dahin gelangten sie zu einer Quelle, bei der sie von Kurden überrascht und von diesen in deren Lager abgeführt wurden. Diese Kurden beteten die Sonne an. Die Missionäre wurden in einem Zelte gefangen gehalten. Die Hausherrin desselben fuhr in der Nacht auf und schrie : von diesen Männern gehen feurige Pfeile aus. (it goes on a bit longer)

I'd like to add this to the page, but it seems a bit dodgy. Reading up on Sabbas, it seems he never even tread near Kurdistan. Also, this book is from 1880, and I can't seem to find any other mention of Sabbas meeting Kurds. Anyone got knowlegde on the subject? Znertu (talk) 21:18, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

The acts were written in the 4th-5th centuries. Mentioning of Kurds in that translation seems anachronistic. I found an Arabic translation of that acta, here it describes a different Saba, those Sun worshippers appear as Majus there.--Kathovo talk 20:18, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your contribution, but the German translator does seem to base himself on the original text. In the footnotes of the whole book the original text is referred to, including the term Kurd. I screencapped it, so it'd be nice if someone could say that what he's referring to actually says 'Kurd'. German Translation Znertu (talk) 00:51, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Btw, it seems it's indeed not Sabbas the Sanctified who is told about in the book, but Shemon Bar Sabbae.Znertu (talk) 12:43, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I read much about origins of Kurds but I don't remember it (there's possibility that I omitted it, but higly unlikely). Since we're talking about late ancient period I'm sure such fact would be highly circulated in many books, but obviously that's not a case so I believe Kathovo is right. --HistorNE (talk) 19:36, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Shah Ismail I

He was from mixed Greek (mother side) and Turkmen (father side) ancestry. The Kurdish ancestry is a very weak link going back to only one ancestor who lived 300 years before his time. He can not be considered Kurdish in any meaningful sense. Please check out the following sources.. The official language of the his court was also Turkish.

So I don't think it is reasonable to include him as a Kurdish personality. He did not speak the language, his immediate ancestors were Turkmen and Greek and his only possible Kurdish ancestor lived 300 years or roughly 10 generations before him. Yes, strictly speaking that may make him less than 0.1 percent Kurdish. So I suggest to remove him from the image gallery. There are many more half-Kurdish people that we can include like former prime ministers of Turkey İsmet İnönü and Turgut Özal. They were at least over 25% percent Kurdish.Vekoler (talk) 07:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

To be honest, I agree with you. It must be noted though that, as the Middle East is a heavily male-dominated society, the patrilineal ancestry was often most important in determining ethnicity. Though, in Ismail I's case, the Kurdish ancestry was indeed heavily diluted, and he didn't consider himself as one either. Might I take this oppurtunity to re-insert Karim Khan Zand? The rationale to remove him was that he was of a Laki tribe, and only perhaps of Kurdish descent. This is quite a faulty reasoning, seeing that Lakis are regarded as being Kurds too. Both by themselves as by others.

Two important characteristics of the Lori group which have often been overlooked are its internal diversity (see below) and its status as a continuum between Kurdish and Persian. Specifically, the varieties on the ends of the continuum (NLori and SLori) have more in common with neighboring languages than with each other. Laki, a Kurdish language beyond the northwestern end of the Lori continuum, shows a great degree of phonological similarity and shared vocabulary with NLori; in Ilām Province, the division between the two languages is still unclear (see “Language and ethnicity,” above). Similarly, the Mamasani variety of SLori shares much in common with neighboring dialects of Fārs (and even with the near-extinct old dialect of Shiraz), and the linguistic boundary between the two is difficult to define. This contrasts with NLori and SLori, which are unintelligible with one another. Even Baḵtiāri, which is transitional between the two, is not intelligible with NLori (e.g., Ḵorramābādi) and SLori (e.g., Mamasani) dialects at the ends of the continuum.

From: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/lori-language-ii

Furthermore, the Kurdish tribes had, it seems, a significant presence in the Zand army:

Baluchistan. There are Kurds in northeastern Persian Baluchistan, who might be the descendants of tribesmen who accompanied the luckless Loṭf-ʿAli Khan Zand on his desperate flight to Bam in 1794. Until the 1880s, they were dominant in Ḵāš, and their leader was known as the Sardār of the Sarḥad (Sykes, pp. 106, 107, 131; see also Bestor). Today, they are widely scattered, some of them living on the southern slopes of the Kuh-e Taftān, others dwelling around Magas (today, Zābol); and still others are settled in Sistān (Afšār Sistāni, p. 918). Hosayn-ʿAli Razmārā mentions eight villages in the district of Bampošt that are inhabited by Baluchi-speaking Zand tribesmen (VIII, pp. 187, 248, 313, 315, 322, 372, 384). These probably moved to Baluchistan at the same time as the Kurds of Ḵāš.

From: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-tribes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Znertu (talk • contribs) 11:19, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 September 2013

In the section titled "Christianity" the second to the last sentence contains a spelling error: "Some communities of the Iraqi converts have formed their own evangelical churces." Please change "churces" to "churches". Polarnaut (talk) 12:29, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Done with thanks, NiciVampireHeart 12:37, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

On Britannica and other issues

Dear user HistorNE,

Although I appreciate your strong patriotic sentiments towards Iran and the Persian homeland, I have to respectfully disagree with your edits and reverts. You are consistently removing information from Britannica regarding the reaction of Kurds to assimilation in Iran where it says:

Kurds in Iran have resisted the Iranian government's efforts, both before and after the revolution of 1979, to assimilate them into the mainstream of national life and, along with their fellow Kurds in adjacent regions of Iraq and Turkey, have sought either regional autonomy or the outright establishment of an independent Kurdish state.

Now, inclusion of the above paragraph and other historical data regarding the events of 1979 should not be misinterpreted as attempts at promotion of separatism in Iran or ethnic hostility towards Persians and Iranians, who have a great culture and rich literary tradition in the Middle East. Who has not heard of Rumi or Khayyam? The issue at stake here is mainly remaining faithful to the neutrality principle and covering all aspects of the modern history of the Kurds in Iran. Surely, some Kurds such as Mr. Qalibaf are well integrated into the mainstream Iranian/Persian way of life, however one should not forget that in recent past, there has been serious hostilities and military conflict between a group of Kurdish rebels and the government forces. Now omitting this aspect from the article, may make it sound nice and pleasant on the surface, but at the end of the day will not help someone who is eager to have a more thorough understanding of the region and its people. It is like whitewashing history of the United States by removing the unpleasant/nasty parts about the civil war in 1860s. So, Please remain calm and look at the whole issue in an objective, neutral fashion instead of reacting solely on emotions and refrain from removing sourced material. If you have objections or concerns about certain paragraphs or data please kindly discuss them here so that other reviewers and editor can also take part in the discussion. This is the only way to enhance the quality and reliability of the article, otherwise trying to impose a single point of view with one-sided arguments, only makes the article look like a propaganda piece. Thanks.Vekoler (talk) 19:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Dear Vekoler, there's nothing "patriotic" or "pro-Iranian" in my edits so I kindly suggest you to avoid such accusations. WP:POLITE is only reason, because personally I found them very funny since it comes from great Kurdish patriots with European passports. I mentioned all relevant positive and negative facts about Kurds in Iran and I don't find your edits constructive at all:

1. Regarding Britannica, please consult Is Encyclopedia Britannica a reliable source?. Conclusion by administrators was that Britannica is a tertiary source and when secondary sources are avaliable then EB can and should be removed.
2. Not just you force Britannica at top, you also removed well-sourced intro about historical boundary context prior to 20th century. May I know why? WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT?
3. You also removed part about literature with summary "Misrepresenting the source". Cited source included name and surname of scholar, article name and date, and only mistake was wrong link. Instead of searching for right Iranica's link and correcting, you removed it and assumed bad faith. After I corrected link yesterday, you removed it once again few hours later.
4. Similar case was this edit where you concluded "The assertion is not found in Kereyenbroek". It can be found on page 141 which has been cited eleven times, and if you possess book you could easily check it. Once again you simply removed sentence which isn't disputable at all since no scholar disagree about strong cultural ties among Iranin peoples.
5. You repeatedly inserted claims Khomeini declared "holy war" against Kurds which is outrageous nonsense. Wikipedia has articles about both jihad and holy war where you can find those two terms are far from being synonyms. In this particular case jihad implies for "struggle" or "fight", surely not religious war. Term is used even in official names of Iranian ministries like agriculture or construction. I'm well aware that Kurdish Marxist activists wanted to show Khomeini as fanatical lunatic, but as you said we should avoid that article looks like a propaganda piece.
6. Miscellaneous adds such as photo that won Pulitzer Prize isn't relevant for general Kurdish situation in Iran at all, among executed there were also monarchist officials.
7. Sources which you inserted are non-academic, mostly Western media and organizations like ICG or Amnesty (even with dead links). If I wanted to make something pro-Iranian it's would be very easy since there's plenty of Iranian official media and organizations, but I still prefer Western academic secondary sources. --HistorNE (talk) 12:48, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm Kurdish and I can easily say that Kurds in Iran much more free than Kurds in Turkey and Kurds in Arabic countries. Even nationalist PKK members say the same thing about Iran. For instance, Iraq made Halabja genocide, Turkey also made numerious genocides against Kurds but can you name a genocide that made by Iran against Kurds? Yes, there are some killings at the various time period but there are not genocide. Kurds are Iranic just like Persians, believe in Zorostranism before the Islam just like Persians, celebrate Nouruz/Newroz just like Persians, etc. The only difference between us is madhab. And Azeris also Iranic. Iranzamin-Iranzamin (talk) 15:04, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Pictures

You should add pictures of Shohreh Ghamar, Soad Hosny, Belçim Bilgin, Widad Akrawi, Zilan Odabaşı, Ilana Eliya, Asenath Barzani, Zelal Gökce, Nur Tatar, Rojda Demirer, Tara Jaff ...and other Kurdish females for balance between males and females on the article. In addition, Feleknas Uca is not a Kurd, she is a Yazidi who support Kurds. Yezidis are Kurdish-speaking population, not Kurdish. Kind regards... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.174.135.252 (talk) 16:27, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Males for pictures: Ahmede Xani, Ahmet Arif, Murathan Mungan, Yaşar Kemal, Abdul-Qadir Gilani bla bla.

Edit request

The article says "They were forcibly converted through the Muslim Conquests." and then provides absolutlly no reference of their forced conversion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.111.19.213 (talk) 12:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I definetly agree with this comment. This issue should be dissolved. There are not any citations. This sentence should not be kept in this article until the author provides trustable evidence that firmly supports Kurds were forcibly converted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.168.54.118 (talk) 13:50, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

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