Talk:Kips Bay Towers

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This article was nominated for deletion on 17 June 2010 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Kips Bay Towers has been listed as one of the Art and architecture good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: January 13, 2025. (Reviewed version).

A fact from Kips Bay Towers appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 10 February 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that after the original developer of the Kips Bay Towers sold off the buildings in 1962, his son bought them back a decade later?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/February. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Kips Bay Towers.

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Original shopping center

@Epicgenius does the April 23, 1961 article from the New York Herald Tribune say the original shopping center had 12 stories? I wasn't sure if this was a typo and supposed to be 12 stores or 1-2 stories; I don't have access to this newspaper so I couldn't check it myself. It looks like the shopping center might have only been 1 or 2 stories tall based on the photos and sketches on the Kips Bay Plaza project page from Pei Cobb Freed & Partners and a 1966 photo of Kips Bay Plaza from Second Avenue that shows the shopping center from the Museum of the City of New York. Transpoman (talk) 04:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Transpoman, the source says 12 stores, not stories. My bad; I must have mistyped something. Epicgenius (talk) 04:36, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Epicgenius thanks for checking this and updating the article! It is helpful to know that it had a dozen stores and wasn't just a bank, cinema and supermarket. One of the other stores in the shopping center would end up becoming the pilot location for a chain of pizza restaurants owned by Rocky Graziano called Rocky Graziano's Pizza Ring. Transpoman (talk) 04:51, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 01:00, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

Kips Bay Towers

... that the exteriors of the Kips Bay Towers were once compared to "a honeycomb standing upright"? Source: Morrison, Harriet (December 9, 1960). "Kips Bay Rooms Have International Theme". New York Herald Tribune. p. 18.
- ALT1: ... that the architect of the Kips Bay Towers, I. M. Pei, was initially advised against designing them? Source: Stern, Robert A. M.; Mellins, Thomas; Fishman, David (1995). New York 1960: Architecture and Urbanism Between the Second World War and the Bicentennial. New York: Monacelli Press. p. 288.
- ALT2: ... that the architect of the Kips Bay Towers recessed the windows to get more money from the U.S. government, but refused to add balconies in front of the windows? Source: McQuade, Walter (August 1961). "Pei's apartments round the corner" (PDF). Architectural Forum. Vol. 115. p. 109.
- ALT3: ... that the architect of the Kips Bay Towers recessed the windows to get more money? Source: McQuade, Walter (August 1961). "Pei's apartments round the corner" (PDF). Architectural Forum. Vol. 115. p. 109.
- ALT4: ... that after the original developer of the Kips Bay Towers sold off the buildings in 1962, his son bought them back a decade later? Source: Horsley, Carter B. (October 3, 1972). "Zeckendorf Jr. Is Buyer".
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/John Boswell (clergyman)

5x expanded by Transpoman (talk) and Epicgenius (talk). Nominated by Epicgenius (talk) at 17:40, 25 January 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Kips Bay Towers; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

Article was more than 5x expanded in the last 7 days (2597b to 21kb). Article is well-sourced, neutral, and copyvio-free. Hooks are interesting, cited, and short enough for DYK; AGF on offline sources. QPQ has been completed. Image is properly licensed and reproduces well at thumbnail size. Morgan695 (talk) 18:32, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Location map

Would this article benefit from having a site map that shows the location of key components on the superblock (e.g., north tower, south tower, garden, playground, shopping center, Greenberg Hall, etc.) If so, an OSM Location map could be added, similar to what was done for University Village. Transpoman (talk) 22:59, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

Passed. Matthew Yeager (talk) 01:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kips Bay Towers/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Epicgenius (talk · contribs) 15:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Matthew Yeager (talk · contribs) 07:03, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'll begin reviewing the nomination section by section, shooting to have it completed Monday Matthew Yeager (talk) 07:03, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations! Marking passed. Matthew Yeager (talk) 01:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()

3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()

Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Overall

Excellent. Writing style allows for direct, seamless communication of complex ideas. Broken down into simple concepts, but layered on one another. You're able to explain architectural themes and local NYC politics with accessibility to any reader.

No notes on prose or structure throughout the article. I'll be reviewing the contents of the references and that may unearth questions about the information, but on face value the article is in great shape. Matthew Yeager (talk) 23:22, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

External Links

The Official website seems like a tenant login portal providing no value to readers / public. Do you think we can remove it, given the other link is the promotional homepage already?
- I removed this link and changed the other one to use the official website template. Epicgenius (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

CopyVio

Y Reviewed top 10 overlap of sources and article.

Would you look to overhaul the section on solar panels for its direct overlap with sources?

Article: Kips Bay Towers installed solar panels on the roof of both of its residential buildings in 2009. The system is capable of producing up to 54 kilowatts of electricity and was partially funded by a rebate from New York State Energy Research and Development Authority. At the time of completion, it was the largest residential solar power system in New York City.[83][84]

Ref 84: With the installation ... Kips Bay Towers became the largest residential solar power system in New York City.

I'm sure you don't need assistance, but as an example:

Proposal: Kips Bay Towers installed solar panels on the roof of both of its residential buildings in 2009. With about half of the funding coming from a New York State Energy Research and Development Authority rebate, the system became the largest in New York City, capable of producing up to 54 kilowatts of electricity.[83][84]

Thanks for the suggestion. I have come

References

NYU-Bellevue Medical Center contributed $25,000 towards the survey - Sounds like they donated $25k, but 8 says lent/financed. Perhaps the information is conflicted in 10 11, but I do not have access to verify. Would you help clarify with me?
- I looked at the sources, but they unfortunately didn't clarify much. It seems like NYU/Bellevue provided $25K, but it's not clear if it was a donation, loan, or grant. Epicgenius (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 14 & 15 are maps. I'm guessing they are located at a local government office. Are you able to provide any of the additional parameters to help answer the question "If I wanted to see these maps myself, where would I need to go, maybe physically?" Best I could find was |publisher= |publication-place=, which might not necessarily be the location an item is now stored, but could give an idea.
- I have added a URL for one of the documents. I didn't find a URL for the other, yet, but it might just not be digitized on the NYC Department of City Planning website. Epicgenius (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 70 - 1. Close paraphrasing - what is trying to be conveyed? 2. The stats do not reflect the source (50/20 swapped):

Article - By then, 70% of the condos had been sold; of these, 50% had been sold to non-residents and 20% to existing residents.[70]

Source - Subsequently, 70 percent of the apartments were purchased, 50 percent by tenants and 20 percent by nonresidents

- Whoops, thanks for pointing it out. I've taken a shot at rewording this. Epicgenius (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 74 responded Legacy Inside Health and Inside Health Mobile App are temporarily unavailable. I've checked back later, with the same result -- recommending |url-status=dead
- I have done this. Epicgenius (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 82 has moved their content to https://wbmelvin.com/awards/ from the old url https://wbmelvin.com/awards-new-hover-styles/, which is now returning 404.
- Done. Epicgenius (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 98's live link no longer shows text, where the archive link continues to support the article. Please update the cite web template to use |url-status=deviated
- Done. Epicgenius (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 109 is the 44pg Kips Bay Parking Special Permit. Would you list the relevant pages in the citation?

Related, are you happy with the specificity of citations for this area -- honest question, happy to hear the answer 'yes':

The complex includes two private surface parking lots for residents, one in front of each tower, and a 300-space public parking garage located below the plaza. The underground garage was designed to take advantage of the site's downward slope to conceal its presence; the entrance is located on First Avenue near the intersection of East 33rd Street, which is near the point of lowest elevation on the adjacent city streets.[14][109][110][111]

I've added the page number. I think the citations could be bundled, so I've done this too. Epicgenius (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 118 (Fenollosa, Marilyn M. (August 3, 2004)) is quoting from page 4 of the pdf, please update the citation to include the page.
- Done. Epicgenius (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 121 does have Hilary Ballon, but discusses Robert Moses instead of Pei. I watched the video twice and did not find the quote. Article: while the historian Hilary Ballon regarded Pei as having "brought reinforced concrete construction to a new level of refinement" in Kips Bay Plaza's construction.[121]. Instead I found the article - please update the citation with either of these:

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/23/arts/design/28pogr.html (|url-access=limited)

https://archive.nytimes.com/query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage-9E0DE3D61F30F93BA15752C0A9619C8B63.html

Thanks for finding the link, I've fixed this. Epicgenius (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 104 - Friedman 1960, p. 169. refers to information only found on p. 168 - which is available as Ref 112. Please update the sentence to use Ref 112. Article: At the ground floor, the columns are spaced 17 feet ...
- Done. Epicgenius (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewed Content

I cannot access 13 of the ProQuest sources
Y Khan, Yasmin Sabina (2004). Engineering Architecture: The Vision of Fazlur R. Khan
Y Friedman, Donald (2010). Historical Building Construction: Design, Materials, and Technology
Y Opdycke, Sandra (2000). No One Was Turned Away: The Role of Public Hospitals in New York City.
Y Whiffen, M.; Koeper, F. (1983). American Architecture: 1860–1976.
Y Postal, Matthew A. (November 18, 2008). University Village (PDF)
Y Wiseman, Carter (1990). I.M. Pei: A Profile in American Architecture. H.N. Abrams.
Y Ivy, Robert (June 2004). "At the twilight of his career, I.M. Pei shows few signs of slowing down" (PDF). Architectural Record.
Y West, Richard (March 23, 1981). "The Vertical Village". New York.
Y Johnson, Donald Leslie; Langmead, Donald (1997). Makers of 20th-Century Modern Architecture: A Bio-Critical Sourcebook
Y Hill, J. (2011). Guide To Contemporary New York City Architecture. Architecture / regional.

Y Friedman, Edward L. (October 1960). p. 160, 168, ~~169,~~ 170

Y McQuade, Walter (August 1961). p. 108, 109, 110, 112-113, 114

Y Stern, Robert A. M.; Mellins, Thomas; Fishman, David (1995). p. 87, 287–288, 288

Y Wiseman, Carter (2001). p. 62, 63, 64, 210

New York Times

NYT requires certain membership levels to access content as noted below.

|url-access=subscription

"Kips Bay Project In Line For Start"
"City To Take Land For New Housing"
"N.Y.U.-Bellevue Plan Grows, With Cost at $32,744,000"
"N. Y. U.-Bellevue Center Aids In Moses Slum-Area Study"
"Merit Rises Given 150 City Employes"
"Ives Backs Funds For New Housing"
"4 Million U.S. Aid Granted Slum Job"
"Project Revived in Bellevue Area"
"Title I Developer to Try Again Here; Scheuer, Who Says He Got 'Run-Around' in '53, Plans to Join Open Bidding"
"Moses Berates 2 Slum Clearers"
"3 Slum Projects Explain Delays"
"Pigeons' Relocation Slows Slum Project"
"Wagner and Moses Will Confer on Title 1 Disclosures Today"
"Housing Projects Getting New Life"
"East Side Housing Revamped To Delete 'Institutional Look'"
"Zeckendorf Bids for 4th Title I Job"
"Slum Clearance Is Defended Here: Ground Broken at Kips Bay"
"Kips Bay Plaza Renting To Begin"
"Agency Here Gets Big Renting Pact; Herbert Charles & Co. Will Supervise 4,660 Units for Webb & Knapp"
"Swede Is Filming A History of War"
"British Company Joins Zeckendorf; New Concern Organized in $43,750,000 Realty Deal"
"Interest is Sold in Savoy Hilton; Foreign Company Acquires Webb & Knapp Equity"
"Zeckendorf Returning to Realty Development; Trades Big Investment for 5 Urban Properties; Alcoa and British Company Get Webb & Knapp Holding in Complicated Deal"
"East Side Complex Almost Finished"
"Conversion Plan Given to Tenants At Kips Bay; Conversion Plan at Kips Bay"
"N.Y.U.'s Biggest Drive: $222.5-Million Is Sought"
"Bostonian Accuses New York Of Chaos in Urban Planning"
- I have done all of these. Epicgenius (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

|url-access=limited

"The Hole That Swallowed the Swings"
"Henry Phipps and Phipps Houses; Millionaire's Effort to Improve Housing for the Poor"
"If You're Thinking of Living in: Kips Bay"
"Straining The Quality Of Water"
"A Mixed-Use Tower for Theaters and Apartments"
"Choosing the Proximity of the Middle"
"TURF; The Condo Board That Stole Halloween"
"Kips Bay: An Anonymous Neighborhood With Fringe Benefits"
"New York City's Emptiest Co-ops and Condos"
"From the E.R. to the Garden, M.T.A. Chief Holds Unusually Powerful Perch"
"James Ingo Freed, 75, Dies; Designed Holocaust Museum"
"Considering the Once and Future Whitney Museum"
"Critic's Notebook; Atop a Hill In Midtown, Where Life Is a Stroll"
"Art/Architecture; The Bruisers Play Defense, The Seducers Trap the Eye"
"A Preservationist's List of 35 Modern Landmarks-in-Waiting"
"If You're Thinking of Living In /Kips Bay; Cohesive, With a Relaxed Ambiance"
- I have done all of these. Thanks for the comments, Matthew Yeager. Epicgenius (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.