Talk:Gaza floating pier

Possible locations

The Reuters explainer in Further reading says the location is unknown but there are some likely candidates. The northern location in the vicinity of Netzarim Road, Netzarim, selected for the former seaport project is 31.48895°N 34.39809°E / 31.48895; 34.39809. The southern location in the vicinity of the Khan Yunis pier is at 31.40037°N 34.30236°E / 31.40037; 34.30236. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

According to ABC [1], Israel has built up the Netzarim Road that accesses Al-Rashid Road that runs alongside the beach, extending the road from Netzarim east to the Israel border. The road would have potential use for aid delivery from Israel. The article did not mention connection to any maritime infrastructure, but it would be logical to build one distribution infrastructure rather than several. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:17, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

This Scripps News story mentions possible locations for the new pier at Port of Gaza or the Netzarim location, as well as the road construction aka Netzarim Corridor. ☆ Bri (talk) 19:35, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

The temporary jetty for the en route Open Arms food barge (not the U.S. pier) is going up south of Gaza City, satellite imagery posted by a Washington Post reporter [2] seem to be consistent with the Netzarim Road location. Update: the location (lat/long coordinates) in the vicinity of Al-Zahra was published by The Times of Israel [3]. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:51, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeni Şafak is reporting heavy equipment building coastal infrastructure at al-Baydar [4]. A little map exploring indicates this is probably between Al-Zahra and Sheikh Ijlin. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:17, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

This CNN story has another satellite image of the beach infrastructure, and the imagery matches up with the Times of Israel images/coordinates. CNN says the US troops will be constructing the JLOTS "several hundred meters off shore". The shore construction also exists on OpenStreetMap as New Gaza "seaport" (breakwater) since 30 days ago, and that appears to be the data source for its display on Bing Maps. This probably is enough to add the location to the article, now. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:48, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The position is 31.497269° N, 34.407952° E.--Bernd Rohlfs (talk) 06:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Outline plan section

The first paragraph that was added gives a lot credit to Netanyahu. It's unlikely that he is involved with the outline plan. As for the idea, others have suggested supplies by sea, since not enough supplies can be reached through the Israeli border crossings or by parachutes. La Nave Partirà (talk) 20:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

See here:

Cyprus working with European, Mideast states on sea corridor to ship aid to Gaza - 31 October 2023.

"Netanyahu ‘wasn’t opposed’ to Nicosia’s proposal".

La Nave Partirà (talk) 20:52, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

An anonymous "senior Israeli diplomatic source" maybe good for the newspaper, but not for an encyclopedia. Without the name of the source, we can attribute any claim we want to him. דוד שי (talk) 13:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the revert performed by Rwendland here, and the explanation -- named sources are not an absolute requirement, when you have a good source reporting on it like The Times of Israel, Jerusalem Times, and the like. If necessary, we can have other sources that have different perspectives or contradictory sources of their own, and explain who is stating what. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with דוד שי. The Times of Israel is indeed a very good source, and it only says:

"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “wasn’t opposed” to the idea pitched by Cypriot President Nikos Christodoulides". - here, on October 31/

La Nave Partirà (talk) 16:11, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Will every piece of nonsense that is published in a newspaper attributing to Anonymous find its way to Wikipedia? This will turn Wikipedia into a PR repository at best and a journalistic garbage dump at worst. דוד שי (talk) 17:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll make a comment later on The Jerusalem Post para reliability. Having done some more research, the plan is generally attributed to Cyprus, and is named the "Amalthea Initiative" (in diplomatic circles at least). Later this evening I'll add a bit giving this name, and swap the order for now so the Cyprus info comes before the JP claim. It seems most likely Cyprus was working on this before "October 22" mentioned in the JP story, so is a better date order anyway. Once it is rejigged, I think it will be easier to consider the merits of the JP para. Hope that's OK for now. Rwendland (talk) 17:38, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Jewish Insider

Is it a reliable source for facts? It is not known in Israel, it seems to me that it is a portal for opinions and not a news portal. La Nave Partirà (talk) 20:11, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I wondered that before adding it as a cite. Jewish Insider is owned by TRIBE Media Corp, which also own The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles (generally known as Jewish Journal, and has a WP article). They bought JI in 2015, I guess as a move to spread its journalism nationally from LA. In 2017 Jewish Journal claimed JI had "full-time New York and Capitol Hill correspondents" (also Israel Correspondent currently). Googling around I didn't find anything about JI outside Jewish media circles; the Jewish News Syndicate (news agency and wire service) re-reports many Jewish Insider stories (google '"Jewish Insider" site:jns.org'). I thought it met the WP:RS "well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact" standard well enough as a second cite.

FWIW its sister publication claims JI "provides breaking news, curated sources and political analysis. Its Daily Kickoff newsletter has become a must-read for diplomats, journalists, activists and philanthropists around the world". NB Its editor-in-chief Josh Kraushaar is also "political analyst for Fox News Radio", so along with JNS using it, suggests JI has a right-wing outlook. Rwendland (talk) 13:11, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Forgot to mention that The Times of Israel re-published the JI Daily Kickoff newsletter newsletter through most of 2019 (google '"Jewish Insider" 2019 site:timesofisrael.com'), and also continues to occasionally re-publish DI articles (eg December 8, 2023), indicating TOI thinks JI is a RS. Also the two authors of the cited JI story are both professional journalists with previous careers including 1: Washington Post (Deputy Bureau Chief), The Jerusalem Post & 2: The Jerusalem Post (Diplomatic Reporter and Knesset Reporter). This is clear underpinnings of being a RS, and indications of good access to Israeli politicians and civil service. Rwendland (talk) 14:35, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I think Rwendland has done more than enough to show that Jewish Insider may stand as a source. It should probably go to RSN if there is a strong disagreement, as it will not just affect this page but over 450 other pages that use it as a source. ☆ Bri (talk) 15:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I accept JI as a source, with caution.

Thank you Rwendland for the addition and changing the order of "who came up with the idea", for the sake of accuracy.

Transport by sea is the obvious way since all the borders are closed and there is no airport. It has been done in the past, via the Port of Ashdod in Israel. this is the cheapest, fastest, and most effective way to transport huge quantities of food in big ships, that would be impossible to transport even through the US pier.

So, when credit is given for the idea, it's not clear for what part, whether the very idea of ​​transferring by sea, or for the idea of ​​transferring on barges from Cyprus as it is done now, or for the American mega-project of the pier. La Nave Partirà (talk) 10:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Would anyone object to the removal of the Citation needed, given that the Jewish Insider cite has been added as 2nd cite? Though I intended the text to be a simple precis of what is in the JP cite, so am unclear what "Reliable sources needed for the whole paragraph" is really calling for, so 2nd cite seems to me not strictly needed. I'll make the change after a day if no objections. Rwendland (talk) 17:04, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

OK.

Here is a bit more info' :

The supplies were transported on a barge towed by a small ship (in TOI it is called a salvage ship). The water in Gaza are shallow (4 meters), so the ship anchored a kilometer from the shore 1

The raft was pushed to the jetty by two RIB boats.

Here is an explanation on an excellent maritime YouTube channel 2

here is a good article in TOI

La Nave Partirà (talk) 04:02, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Adjust short description

Adjust the short description now that the dock is complete. Suggested wording: "US-built dock facility to receive aid" (sounds weird without the additional 'US-built' imo).

Yawkat (talk) 07:50, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Done. Selfstudier (talk) 10:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Can we add the pier coordinates to this article? I think it would useful for folks to have a direct link to a map instead of just "joins the Netzarim Corridor" hidden in the intro paragraph. I've already seen graphics online that give a completely wrong location.

Unfortunately I was unable to find a direct source for the coordinates. However we do have a map in the Netzarim Corridor article, and we have satellite images of the pier. From this it is possible to locate the pier at geo:31.4969,34.4073.

Would this be acceptable, or does this already violate Wikipedia:No original research?

Yawkat (talk) 09:03, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

https://twitter.com/hursitdingil/status/1768976271306789345 gives 31.497, 34.408 from a couple months ago but then https://twitter.com/davthewave/status/1791229838834991320 from 17 May says "It has been moved further south of Gaza City in order to comply with the Israeli request that it be next to a check point set up [a corridor running right through the Gaza strip cutting it in half]." so idk if those coords are still correct. We need an up to date RS giving the coordinates.

Having said that, we should at least be able to do a map showing both the corridor and the pier, which is more informative than the coords anyway. Selfstudier (talk) 09:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe the first tweet does not show the pier that this article is about. If you compare it to the planetlabs satellite picture, the structure is actually a few meters further north. You can also see it in the planetlabs picture as a small strip next to the pier, and it is on OSM as 'Gaza new "seaport"'. I believe it is the structure mentioned in this article as "jetty constructed in mid-March to receive aid for distribution by the World Central Kitchen charity".

I don't know the original plans for the pier location, but the Netzarim Corridor location matches the second tweet, so the pier is indeed at the end of the corridor now. Yawkat (talk) 10:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh, you can also see the jetty in the CENTCOM picture that heads this article. Yawkat (talk) 10:07, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Meanwhile is (as far as I see) it's in Apple Maps. And it's in the erman wiki. So I think the coordinates can be added to the article. Schrauber5 (talk) 07:09, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Edit requests: damage in heavy seas

• What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

Please add the following paragraph to the "construction and route history" section:

On May 25th, four US vessels supporting the pier broke free in heavy seas, two of which were then anchored near the pier, with the other two beached in Israel. A section of the pier itself was also beached, though US CENTCOM claims the pier "remains fully functional".

• Why it should be changed: relevant to the operational status of the pier.
• References supporting the possible change: https://www.centcom.mil/MEDIA/PRESS-RELEASES/Press-Release-View/Article/3787939/high-sea-states-impact-army-vessels/ https://thehill.com/policy/4686031-us-ships-operating-gaza-humanitarian-pier-beach-on-israels-shores/

Yawkat (talk) 20:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: Please provide some more secondary sources. If an editor wants to make this change, feel freee. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 03:19, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I think http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Gaza_floating_pier&diff=1226459812&oldid=1226350117 basically covers everything this edit request wanted to say anyway Yawkat (talk) 14:40, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Pier damage

The opening sentence should be changed to read "The Gaza floating pier was..." 71.69.181.153 (talk) 21:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

No, it doesn't fit with the "agenda" to admit Biden did anything that failed. Forget that CNN, MSNBC, etc. are all reporting on the collapse.

There's an interesting youtube video about this by someone who used to work on JLOTS, that says this is a temporary move of sections to an Israeli port while the sea state is high (with some sections accidentally beaching in the move - not uncommon and designed for). Video of beaching included. The plan is to move it back after some repairs. Says Israeli Navy had to help with the move and beaching (partly so no US boots on the beach). What I found most interesting was that he said JLOTS was really designed for use in damaged harbours or elsewhere where there was some protection from waves, not open shore, especially south-east Med where summer prevailing south-east wind creates a high sea state. Also a powerful US auto-canon installed on pier edge just by beach for protection. But of course we need to find better RS to include this background info in article. Rwendland (talk) 12:56, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 June 2024

Minor URL correction: in citation 95 ending the Criticism section (Haley Britzky, "High seas and low maintenance: Inside the turbulent US effort to build a pier into Gaza"), the word "High" from the beginning of the title has instead been appended to the end of the URL, breaking the link. Thank you! BicyclePolicy (talk) 18:16, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for noting that. It happens when the title is left glued to the url, and fixed by a separating space. Fixed.Nishidani (talk) 18:29, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 June 2024

Please update the Damage and Repair section. Specifically, the paragraphs At the beginning... and The repaired pier ... could be consolidated like this using new information.

−

At the beginning of June, the Pentagon estimated that up to the suspension over 1,000 tonnes of aid had been delivered to shore, 900 tonnes of which had reached UN warehouses.

+

The repaired pier was reinstalled by June 7. 4,100 tonnes of aid had been delivered to shore by late June according to the Pentagon.

Uhoj (talk) 23:12, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Stale request due to updated events – macaddct1984 ^{(talk | contribs)} 12:51, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

References

So what happened to the C-RAM & M-LIDS weapons systems?

"A Centurion C-RAM (Counter-Rocket, Artillery, and Mortar) and the M-LIDS anti-drone systems were installed in May by the shore-attached section of the pier for force protection."

Ok so did these wash into the sea since then or...? These major US weapons systems are just rusting? In use by Israel? By the US?

Offensive/non-humanitarian uses of these weapons systems might include:

• providing cover for advancing troops or by targeting enemy positions/deployment in densely populated areas (C-RAM)
• surveil/target individuals/groups and disrupt communications and other electronic systems in civilian areas (M-LIDS)

Nobody knows what happened? I can't find any info past May.... This policy applies to (talk) 00:28, 8 August 2024 (UTC)