Talk:Fall of Damascus

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Salem Turki al-Antri

This guy is the leader of the FSA in the south, he should be listed as one of the leaders in that section Napoleon583 (talk) 02:23, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.hstoday.us/subject-matter-areas/counterterrorism/us-backed-syrian-free-army-appoints-ex-isis-chief-as-commander/ Napoleon583 (talk) 02:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Title changes

There were several suggestions for a title change and I suppose there may be more. I have collected them here together for clarity. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Siege of Damascus (2024)

Should this article be changed to the Siege of Damascus (2024)? The rebels have surrounded the city. 2001:56A:7956:9000:7080:2590:97EC:DE15 (talk) 03:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They have since entered the city and it will likely fall soon. Charles Essie (talk) 03:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would personally prefer Fall of Damascus (2024). This event was more similar to the Fall of Kabul in 2022, there wasn't really any organized resistance to the rebels to call it a battle. FutureSlap (talk) 03:41, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Like the Aleppo discussion, this sounds a bit biased. I’d say no. 71.236.127.123 (talk) 04:22, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How is that biased and Fall of Kabul isn't. 2806:290:881F:A7AC:E9FA:B5D:B0DD:3810 (talk) 07:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's basically no fighting so this isn't even a "battle" as the SAA is just retreating on contact and not putting up resistance. Harizotoh9 (talk) 04:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

N There was no battle or siege. Per the other suggestions below, the title has been moved to Fall of Damascus which seems consistent with the similar Fall of Kabul (2021) and the guidance of WP:PRECISE. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:53, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fall of Damascus (2024)

Battle of Damascus (2024) → Fall of Damascus (2024)

As the capital Damascus has officially fallen to the opposition, I suppose a name switch to really signify the importance and overall victory composed in the battle which may have led to the end of a 13-year war and the overall end of a 54-year dictatorship in the country.

Overall the name switch is to show significance and to notify the fall of the CAPITAL city

Vamos Palmeiras (talk) 05:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

N There was more support for a move to Fall of Damascus in the following section. That move has been done and that title seems consistent with WP:PRECISE. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:49, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you I fully agree with that change. Vamos Palmeiras (talk) 12:57, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fall of Damascus

Several WP:RS (Reuters) (CNN (CBS) thus I proposed this article be changed to Fall of Damascus. QalasQalas (talk) 05:23, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The rebels control the city. The Assad regime has fallen. This name change should be an easy thing to get behind. DrPepperIsNotACola (talk) 05:48, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. There also was no major fighting it seems which would hardly characterize this as a battle.
2806:290:881F:A7AC:E9FA:B5D:B0DD:3810 (talk) 07:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support As I mentioned before, there was no significant fighting (which I consider to be a requirement of a "battle"), and the precedent for such an event being known as a "Fall" is seen in the Fall of Kabul. Rapid takeover + negligible resistance. FutureSlap (talk) 09:36, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is an anti-Syrian POV-title. Syrian society would want to remember the overthrowal of 6 decades of Ba'ath party's tyranny as a liberation, not as a "fall".

Also see the RM discussion in Talk:Battle of Aleppo (2024). There was a consensus to not use the word "fall" since it is a propagandistic title in the current Syrian context.

Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 10:52, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support I had put my title proposal as Fall of Damascus (2024) but either-way the titles seem to be the same and I fully agree with the title switch! Vamos Palmeiras (talk) 12:58, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Y I agree with the OP. As there was no opposition (at the time) and there's a recent and similar precedent of the Fall of Kabul (2021), I have boldly made the move. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:39, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Capture of Damascus which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:08, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Consistency on article names

@Andrew Davidson, Vamos Palmeiras, Charles Essie, FutureSlap, QalasQalas, DrPepperIsNotACola, Shadowwarrior8, DERPALERT, Chxeese, MagicalFishing, Nythar, EkoGraf, Rager7, Yesyesmrcool, Aydoh8, M Waleed, Bunnypranav, ArkHyena, InterDoesWiki, Braganza, Andre Farfan, MiasmaEternal, Theofunny, Cenderabird, Skitash, Stranger43286, and R. J. Dockery: Hello all! I'd like to establish consensus here, as we have two articles about two events that took place at nearly the same time in the same country with the same situation, but inconsistent names. I'm hoping that we can choose one-or-the-other format. Feeglgeef (talk) 20:18, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For "Fall of"

Fall of, would imply the seizure was without combat, Battle would imply a large combat engagement, in both cases it isn't really clear for what to choose but considering the relatively low combat, Fall of wouldn't cause as much of a problem Waleed (talk) 21:46, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I say Fall of sounds a better title for this article as the rebels faced minimal resistance as they captured the city. Rager7 (talk) 23:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The current title is Fall of and seems to be working well enough. It is quite a passive way of putting it and that seems appropriate as the events were quite bloodless and free of conflict. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For "Capture of"

For the record, because I didn't explicitly state it, I support Capture of, I think that Fall of has POV issues, and Battle of isn't a very accurate description. Feeglgeef (talk) 20:28, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I support the title "Capture of...", since "Fall of.." here has POV issues. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 17:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I support this title--I haven't seen it called the "Fall of" anywhere. Obviously eventually one name will predominate in sources, but until then, "Capture of" seems more neutral vis-a-vis how much force was required. Red Slash 23:08, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For "Battle of"

Neutral/comment

I'd be open to see into it and establish a resolution at any time! Vamos Palmeiras (talk) 20:20, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral though I was creator of this page and I used "Battle of" because Southern Operations Room and Syrian Free Army just entered, they would captured Damascus unopposed. So I am neutral. RealStranger43286 (talk) 03:38, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am neutral Braganza (talk) 20:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Damascus has been fully took by the free Syrian army and southern rebels

At 6am local time rebels took all of damascus 2601:447:C002:3630:6D5E:E1CD:669C:6264 (talk) 03:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The outcome

Though from the new developments we learn, like rebels occupying the prison, state media office, and probably international airport, the rebels are heading to a victory, but right now it's NOT high time to put down "Syrian opposition victory" when the Syrian capital is not fully secured as we speak.

Wait until the rebels and those Syrian officials who defect to the rebels say so, then we update as such. Bf0325 (talk) 03:39, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Status of Bashar al-Assad?

At the moment Bashar is reported by some to have fled Damascus, but his whereabouts are unknown. Some say he is dead. Is it preferable to wait until more information arrives, or mark him as MIA? FutureSlap (talk) 03:43, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer wait and see...just like now CNN runs a new post, [1]https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/syria-civil-war-12-07-2024-intl/index.html?t=1733629632388 , "Rebel forces in Syria have declared Damascus “free,” claiming Bashar al-Assad has fled the capital, according to a statement on Sunday.

“We declare the city of Damascus free from the tyrant Bashar al-Assad,” the Military Operations Command wrote in a post on Telegram."

But just because Syrian rebels said so doesn't mean we've to rush now...we simply can wait and see. Bf0325 (talk) 03:58, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like to circulate rumours, but on BBC this morning there was a suggestion of an unconfirmed report that the plane carrying Assad (and his family?) to an unspecified destination had crashed. Which event, if true, would ease/solve what would otherwise be a massive embarrassment for Moscow. Rif Winfield (talk) 10:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See Syrian Air Flight 9218 and Talk:Bashar al-Assad. His family appears to have left days prior for Russia. --Super Goku V (talk) 12:39, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He has not made a public statement, which is his choice so exactly where he is remains unclear. Multiple reports that he has left Damascus, and there's no reports of him being captured. I imagine he will eventually make some kind of public statement. Harizotoh9 (talk) 18:03, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It’s done

From live map reports it’s pretty clear Damascus has fallen. So we should prob put that this a Syrian opposition victory Bedandbreakfast118 (talk) 04:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't believe that Assad has been left Damascus on a plane

Maybe Syria will be a democratic country in the Middle East soon LuuTuyen2k9 (talk) 08:39, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

your comment violates WP:FORUM, Luu - please cease and desist, and discuss Reliable Sources to improve the article 2603:6080:21F0:67F0:F85B:65AD:308F:B4D3 (talk) 16:38, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2024

This edit request to Battle of Damascus (2024) has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Assad Plane crashed? Netizens say… “Sudden Disappearance and Altitude Change Suggests It Was Shot Down!! Unconfirmed information is being circulated about the sudden descent of the plane that was reportedly carrying Assad after it disappeared from radar and dropped suddenly from an altitude of over 3,650 meters to 1,070 meters in a few minutes, just outside Lebanese airspace north of Akkar. 3D flight radar data of the plane suspected of carrying Bashar al-Assad indicates that it crashed. The Syrian Air IL-76 aircraft’s altitude dropped suddenly, and it seems it was shot down.". Neutral.editor5 (talk) 07:58, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mention of Syrian Air Flight 9218 speculation has been added to the article, but there is no confirmation of a plane crash at the moment. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 08:39, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At the moment, there is no concrete evidence that the plane indeed crashed, nor is there evidence that Assad was aboard. Hold off on it for now. FutureSlap (talk) 09:33, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The AP (talk) 12:14, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tahrir al-Sham and Syrian Salvation Government

why is Tahrir al-Sham not mentioned as belligerent in the infobox? Hu741f4 (talk) 11:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2024 (2)

{{Assad has fled to russia|Fall of Damascus|answered=no}} Bashaar Al-Assad has fled to Russia. His destination is no longer unknown JKK13 (talk) 12:03, 8 December 2024 (UTC) This is the source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/12/06/russia-assads-rescue-citizens-leave-syria/[reply]

Sounds like only his family left for Russia. Which sentence confirms that he flew or traveled to Russia? --Super Goku V (talk) 12:28, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

per TASS both he and his family are in Moscow.

“Assad and his family have arrived in Moscow. Russia, for humanitarian reasons, has granted them asylum,” the Kremlin source said, according to TASS Cononsense (talk) 18:08, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relevance of Fall of Saigon and Fall of Kabul in the see also section?

I don't mean to ruffle feathers but I don't see what relevance these two events have to the Fall of Damascus beyond being incidents where a government fell to opposition forces. Plutonical (Talk) 01:04, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Plutonical I agree, See also should only indicate related articles. Munfarid1 (talk) 08:42, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This "See Also" is turning into a disambiguation page for pages titled "Fall of". We may as well put the Fall of Constantinople, I mean, it's in the neighbourhood. The capture of the capital of South Vietnam by communist North Vietnam in the 1970s has nothing to do with the Middle East or with current geopolitical trends. I say cut them all and just put other articles related to modern Syria. Unknown Temptation (talk) 20:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

POV : one-sided racism

from background:

Refugees from the conflict had been subjected to hardship and violent racism

It would be more politically neutral to say

Refugees from the conflict had been subjected to hardship, and their presence increased ethnic tensions in the areas where they resettled. 38.32.56.186 (talk) 14:57, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given that the suggested 'improvement' seems just as bad, then what about the following:

Refugees from the Conflict Zone have been subjected to race hate, from the far right, in an attempt to increased ethnic tensions. 2.30.22.180 (talk) 15:56, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 December 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the "Analysis" section, change "ubelievable" to "unbelievable". Simple grammatical mistake. Lancer-lot-X (talk) 15:59, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done Looks like this has already been done. --GnocchiFan (talk) 20:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would you like some more useful sources?

Hello! Unfortunately, I'll have no time at all to help you update this and other pages with more information on the offensive and the fall of the regime; however, I just wanted to leave you some useful sources you can use to add more details and links yourself.

Obviously, we've already got plenty of good live timelines to choose from, including The Guardian, The New York Times, the BBC, El País and Le Monde.

However, I think you should check out the material from Il Post and Al Jazeera, too: the former outlet has put together a very on-point timeline, with lots of references to other newspaper and social media content, as well several in-depth articles like this one, while the latter has created a bunch of maps and graphics that could be quite useful as Creative Commons content that could be uploaded on Wikimedia portals.

Let me know if this helps! Oltrepier (talk) 20:33, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]