Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2025-02-07/In the media

← Back to In the media

Discuss this story

Musk's complaints had validity, in as much as we were, in several articles, saying he did a "Nazi salute" without qualification. Adding "what some considered" or "what many categorized as a Nazi salute" would have gone a long way, but oh no... the encyclopedia, in Wiki voice, insisted on saying Musk did a "Nazi salute". Bra fuckin' vo. Marcus Markup (talk) 10:05, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

• @Marcus Markup: Are you saying that Musk did not make a Nazi salute (2 actually). Have you seen the video? at about 0:58 - 1:03). I don't mean the video from Fox starting about 1:15 where they cut to a crowd scene just at the right time to miss the first Nazi salute). Has Musk actually denied making a Nazi salute? If so please link to it. He's made several non-denial denials where he just attacks people who he thinks claimed that, but never bothers to say that he didn't make a Nazi salute. As the Associated Press wrote "Many social media users noticed that the gesture looked like a Nazi salute. Musk has only fanned the flames of suspicion by not explicitly denying those claims in a dozen posts since, though he did make light of the criticism and lashed out at people making that interpretation." You write that there are "several articles, saying he did a 'Nazi salute' without qualification" on Wikipedia. I think that's incorrect. Can you show us the articles and edits? Let's talk facts here. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 12:26, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

  > Are you saying that Musk did not make a Nazi salute

  Yes, I am. And I have edited at least one article to correct it to "Nazi-like". Unless he is in actuality a Nazi and is actually espousing Nazi ideology, his awkward gestures were not "Nazi" salutes. I realize that many believe he actually is a "Nazi" but this is still an encyclopedia. Marcus Markup (talk) 12:28, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

  • • My question was "You write that there are "several articles, saying he did a 'Nazi salute' without qualification" on Wikipedia. I think that's incorrect. Can you show us the articles and edits?" Your edit history since Jan. 20 shows that you've only edited one article related to the Nazi salutes, Elon Musk, and that was entirely about his video gaming playing - nothing about the salutes. You did make one edit [1] at the bottom of the Grimes article which did add "-like" to "Nazi". That's your proof that there were "several articles"?
    • Are you really claiming that Musk has to officially be in the Nazi party in order to say that he made a Nazi salute? re: your "Unless he is in actuality a Nazi and is actually espousing Nazi ideology, his awkward gestures were not "Nazi" salutes." If so you are wrong. The Hitler Salute from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum shows multiple examples and explains that all Germans were required to use the Hitler salute, at first including Jews, though they were later forbidden to use the salute. The video explains "the Hitler salute is one of the most recognizable symbols of Nazism."
    • Your criticisms of Wikipedia's writing are factually challenged. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:46, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

  He did do a Nazi salute, the question really is whether he actually intended to do that or was it an accident. I have my own opinions on what he intended but they are just subjective opinions, what he did is not. ObsidianCompass (talk) 16:30, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

  • @ObsidianCompass:} It's good to see somebody just come out and write the straight-forward truth - that "he did do a Nazi salute". There's no reason to qualify that statement. We have standard definitions of what a Nazi salute is, e.g. from the Holocaust Museum and the ADL (as published in this case in The Guardian). Saying he made a Nazi salute is not much different from saying "there's a picture of a Swastika on Wikipedia". There is (not related to Musk) and there are standard definitions you can refer to if anybody questions you about it. It's also pretty hard to give a Nazi salute by accident. On a trip outside the US, I saw a group of people give Nazi salutes. There was no way they were doing it by accident. (Yes, I got out of there right away!) "Intention" or "state of mind" a bit more difficult - ultimately only the individual involved can say what they were thinking at the time. But we don't need a psychiatrist or a judge to make a considered judgement in many cases - it's something that humans do quite naturally all the time, and need to do all the time. More a matter of consensus on Wikipedia than anything else. But to those who say that "we can't say anything about his intentions, so we can't say if it is serious", I'd say "that's a cop-out". Here's another analogy: you and a friend are walking down the street and see something unusal. So you ask your friend "why did that guy flip you the bird (or give you the finger)?" Well that's really an ignorant question because you already know the answer. 99% of the time, your friend would say something like "he intended to say that he thinks I'm a jerk." Giving someone the finger, just like making a Nazi salute, is an act of communication. In the first case they are communicating "you are a jerk", in the second "I like Nazi politics". There's no need for a psychiatrist or a linguist to determine the person's intention. Sorry for the long comment. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:55, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

Note that only 45min after your comment, the move debate settled on Elon Musk salute controversy to neutrally report that Musk made a salute, but whether it was Nazi or Roman is under debate. As Smallbones explains, the case that this was a Nazi salute is much stronger than the rebuttal than it wasn't, yet Wikipedia's processes still settled on a neutral title. Musk seems to be hoping for no mention of criticism whatsoever. ViridianPenguin🐧 (💬) 01:25, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

• There are many editors who believe that BLP should not apply to people they don't like. These editors are incredibly common in WP:AMPOL. We can usually get consensus against their changes, but they're a massive drain on the community's energy until then and they'll just move on to something else afterward. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:55, 9 February 2025 (UTC)
  • @Thebiguglyalien: just to be clear, are you saying that there were Wikipedians who were making edits about Musk's Nazi salutes [2] that were against WP:BLP? If so, where were they? We need to talk facts here not just vague accusations. Can you provide any links?
  • I did ask above to the guy who made the first comment about "in several articles" (I bolded the s) where there were BLP violations. He gave one ,[3] at the bottom of the Grimes article where he later added "-like" to "Nazi". Essentially a nothing burger. People can't just write "BLP" and expect to be able to remove any material they don't like. See WP:BLPPUBLIC "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." Smallbones_(smalltalk) 20:54, 9 February 2025 (UTC)

    I had Nazi salute in mind, where several editors were clamoring to add undue content about a living person instead of writing the article properly, necessitating an RfC to shoot it down. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:44, 9 February 2025 (UTC)

• A very weak answer, you gotta do better than that when accusing editors of BLP violations. The 1st edit at Nazi salute about Musk [4]

• • "On January 20, 2025 at a rally shortly after the second inauguration of Donald Trump, Elon Musk gave a speech during which he appeared to make two fascist or Nazi salutes. Musk has not yet directly commented.[106][107] Neo-Nazis and white nationalists reportedly celebrated Musk's salutes.[108]"

• So 3 sources (TIME, The Guardian, Rolling Stone) were properly referenced. “he appeared to make …”, not a direct statement in Wikivoice, just a mild summary of what the sources wrote. Where’s the BLP violation?
• Well, it was reverted 3 minutes later, based on nothing but the reverter’s opinion [5]
• As far as the RfC you are claiming - it was withdrawn/changed right at the start to be a simple discussion. In any case it hasn’t been closed. It was long and almost devoid of BLP discusion - just one mention of BLP. “I even think that it potentially has BLP problems for it to be listed on the Nazi salute article when it was probably something completely innocent.” - pure unsupported opinion. Instead people were essentially just saying that they hadn’t seen anything like a Nazi salute, or that it wasn’t notable. Pure delusion IMHO.
• So before you make any claims about editors violating WP:BLP, give an example. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 00:34, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

Well, regardless of what Musk is or did, I think he might be right in that Wikipedia is sometimes an extension of traditional media, inasmuch as we often consider citations to said media as "reliable sources", at least in eswiki. Sophivorus (talk) 12:48, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

That is by design and by purpose. Traditional media, including university press and such when we can get it, are our house-gods. This make us wide-open to Professor values, but the internet is vast and there are plenty of other websites. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:57, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

What irked Musk so much is that Wikipedia is not for sale and there is not enough money he can accrue to buy Wikipedia off. The decision to never allow any advertising on Wikipedia and never sell Wikipedia off really paid off - Wikipedia has no price tag at all. His efforts to prevent donation to Wikipedia will not work either. Most of his base probably never donated to Wikipedia at the first place. And even in the event of massive downturn of donation the cost to run Wikipedia servers are quite low. We can survive with lower donation. Wikipedia isn't run by CEOs or some big suits who earned millions of dollar each year. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 16:53, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

If a Nazi's mad at us, we must be doing something right! Whoop whoop pull up ^{♀️ Bitching Betty 🏳️‍⚧️ Averted crashes ⚧️} 00:48, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

Tesla and unions is going to appear on the Main Page in 11 days. Can't wait to see what he says then. Is he going to call Wikipedia communist propaganda? We'll have to wait and see. 💽 🌙Eclipse 💽 🌹 ⚧ (she/they/it) ^talk/edits 16:28, 9 February 2025 (UTC)

Hopefully he does not cut the million dollar check I received from USAID to publish this communist propaganda. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 19:41, 9 February 2025 (UTC)

You only got a million? Try asking social security! :p Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:13, 9 February 2025 (UTC)

I am opening a Requested move discussion to rename social security to socialist security, nothing a 19 year old and red-bull couldn't fix break though ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 00:15, 10 February 2025 (UTC)