Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Vesna Vulović/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 11:53, 14 March 2018 [1].

Vesna Vulović

Nominator(s): 23 editor (talk) 16:32, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Vesna Vulović was the sole survivor of a 1972 plane crash that killed almost 30 people. She is recognized by Guinness World Records for having survived the highest fall without a parachute. I look forward to any and all constructive criticism so that the article meets FA criteria. 23 editor (talk) 16:32, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

~~Comment~~ What an extraordinary person. The article is in excellent shape, and my only comment is to ask whether we know why the crew of JAT Flight 367 might have been so fatalistic? Had there been other attacks on aircraft? Nick-D (talk) 00:19, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of fact, there were quite a few aircraft hijackings/bombings in Europe and North America in the early 1970s (mostly by Middle Eastern or Latin American "freedom fighters"). Around the same time, a number of terrorist attacks were carried out in Yugoslavia and against Yugoslav targets abroad by exiled nationalists. This part of the article is more or less told from Vulović's perspective. I don't want to speculate as to why the crew acted as she described, but I feel this passage provides valuable insight into their activities/overall disposition the day leading up to the crash. Of course, I can trim this section if it's overly confusing. 23 editor (talk) 04:26, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest working that in (perhaps as a short para in the 'JAT Flight 367' section?), as the crash and terrorist attacks is also part of the story here - especially given that Vulović was perceived to be at risk while recovering and what seem like absurd claims were made about the incident late in her life. Nick-D (talk) 05:53, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, you want me to mention that there was an uptick in Croatian nationalist attacks before and after the bombing? 23 editor (talk) 18:07, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Something like that: whatever's needed to provide context for the attack on the aircraft (if only Croatian nationalist terrorist attacks are relevant, then limit it to them). Nick-D (talk) 23:36, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've added some context . What do you think? 23 editor (talk) 19:47, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That looks good, but starting the next sentence with 'the same day' is unclear, as it's not obvious which day is being referred to. Nick-D (talk) 02:19, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Has this edit remedied the issue, Nick? 23 editor (talk) 19:48, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that looks good. I'm now pleased to support this nomination. Nick-D (talk) 21:56, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

~~Comment~~ Support Very nicely written. I had to pause only twice reading it through:

"Nobody ever expected me to live this long," she recounted. - Begs for the year in which she recounted this to be added
It's stated that she disputed the assertion that she was discovered in the fuselage, then goes on to quote her as saying "...I was in the middle part of the plane...", which seems somewhat contradictory.

Factotem (talk) 18:47, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the input, Factotem. I've addressed the discrepancy you brought up (good catch!) and added that the quote is from 2008. 23 editor (talk) 18:57, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

Ref 10 lacks publisher information
Ref 20: Clarify which part of this source is supporting the article.

I'm not able to check the foreign language sources for reliability, but they don't appear to be problematic. Otherwise, all sources are in good order and of the appropriate quality and reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 17:50, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 10 is from the Czechoslovak Civil Aviation Authority. Ref 20 is from the official Discovery Channel episode guide. The results of the Mythbusters' experiment is mentioned by this website , whose reliability I'm unsure about. The fact that her case was tackled by the Mythbusters is also mentioned in this article by Serbia's state broadcaster. 23 editor (talk) 20:05, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There doesn't seem to be anything in the Discovery Channel source that supports this statement: "In 2005, Vulović's fall was recreated by the American television program MythBusters, which concluded that surviving such a plunge was unlikely but plausible". This statement is supported by the alternative source you mention, but I would not classify this as reliable. Unless the Serbian source makes specific reference to the plausibility of survival, I would recommend that you drop the statement from your text. Brianboulton (talk) 11:05, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've trimmed this part to only mention her case was featured on the show without explicitly stating the team's findings. 23 editor (talk) 19:47, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:29, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ceranthor

I've been fascinated by this woman's life for years. I intend to post some comments when I get the chance. ceranthor 04:55, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"She went on to make an almost complete recovery" - Have never liked "went on to"; I think it's redundant. Better as "She made an almost complete recovery"
"The airline apparently felt that her presence on flights would attract too much publicity. " - why apparently?
"The final years of her life were spent in seclusion and she continued to struggle with survivor's guilt." - You haven't previously mentioned this survivor's guilt in the lead, so it's confusing to say that she continued to struggle with it
"Srbská Kamenice" - needs an WP:NBSP
"Vulović was fired from JAT in 1990 or 1991[e]" - for consistency's sake, when the marriage date was different among sources, you only listed one of the years. why do you list both here?

Otherwise, the prose is fantastic. Support on 1a. ceranthor 19:33, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

All addressed, Ceranthor, except for the NBSP. In which spot does it need to be added? 23 editor (talk) 19:44, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just fixed it. ceranthor 20:29, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support, fascinating and very well written Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:40, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Jimfbleak! 23 editor (talk) 19:21, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support - convinced by the above arguments, article still might need one or two minor fix ups in some areas but overall seems fine for a potential FA. Inter&anthro (talk) 02:54, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi , Inter&anthro! What improvements did you have in mind? I'd be happy to address any concerns. 23 editor (talk) 23:38, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi 23 editor, I think that the opening early life section, while adequate, could perhaps be expanded a bit more, and that further on in the article many of the sources are in the Serbian language. While there is nothing inherently wrong with either aspect (and neither should hold this article back from becoming a FA) it would be nice to see the early life section a bit more fleshed out and if possible some more English language citations. But that is just my opinion. Inter&anthro (talk) 02:33, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As far as her early life is concerned, I couldn't find the names of her parents, despite my best efforts. In the Aviation Security interview, Vulovic mentions that she studied languages in university, hence her desire to travel to the UK to learn English, a language she was interested in due to contemporary pop culture. She stayed in an English town with a family friend before going to Sweden. Her parents forced her to return to Yugoslavia because they perceived Sweden to be too sexually liberated. I can add this info to the article if the Early life section as it appears now seems a bit thin.

As for the Serbian sources, most are news reports published following her death. These go into quite a bit more detail about reactions to her passing than their Western counterparts, which merely rehash old English-language articles that were written about her. 23 editor (talk) 17:51, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Cas Liber

Taking a look now...

She sustained severe brain damage, having fractured her skull and then hemorrhaged. - I'd be wary about the term " brain damage" as it is generally used to describe people with permanent disability after an injury. I'd remove the term, and join mention of the skull fracture and hemorrhage onto the previous sentence about the coma.

In 2005, Vulović's fall was recreated by the American television program MythBusters. - do we know what they concluded?

Vulović's deteriorating health prevented her from taking part in annual commemorations at Srbská Kamenice, which she had previously attended for many years - ummm, in which year?

These are minor issues - it reads welll and is on target to becoming Featured. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:17, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Casliber. I've addressed the brain damage issue. We do know what the MythBusters concluded on the basis of the show itself (there's a Youtube video), but unfortunately I haven't been able to dig up a reliable source that explicitly states what their conclusion was. If you're interested, they said that surviving such a plunge was plausible under the right circumstances. As for the last point, it is referring to the last decade or so of her life. 23 editor (talk) 01:40, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok all good. a nice read Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:24, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 11:53, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.