Template:Did you know nominations/50 Carnaby Street
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: rejected by 97198 (talk) 10:10, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
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50 Carnaby Street
[edit]- ... that 50 Carnaby Street was home to a series of nightclubs, including a 1950 bebop jazz club that Tony Hall called "hell on earth"?
- ALT1:... that 50 Carnaby Street was home to a series of nightclubs, including the Florence Mills Social Parlour, The Roaring Twenties and Columbo's?
- Reviewed: Glen Rounds
- Comment: Better hooks welcome!
Created by Philafrenzy (talk), Edwardx (talk). Nominated by Edwardx (talk) at 18:36, 27 July 2014 (UTC).
The article is new enough, long enough and there is no obvious close paraphrasing. My main concern is that too many of the sources look like blogs. Since the article deals with negative themes like drug abuse, with quotations from various people, I would say the sources have to be of a higher level that have seen scrutiny from a professional publisher. Can you explain how we could trust, say, the source for the "hell on earth" quotation? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:14, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- I would have thought that the 25 sources were a good mix of books, webpages and personal reminiscences. No individual is accused of taking drugs. This is a popular culture article so inevitably the sources are not likely to be university press books, but they still seem sound and reliable to me. I wouldn't characterise sites like henrybebop.co.uk or themodgeneration.co.uk as blogs exactly and where they are used it is mainly to describe atmosphere and repeat personal reminiscences. I agree it would be nice to have a better source for the "hell on earth" quotation but it is in no way a controversial statement so I would have thought we could live with the current source. Philafrenzy (talk) 11:01, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- Books are good. Webpages and personal reminiscences are only okay if you know they're true. Sometimes they aren't. Other sources you could consider are West End Chronicles: 300 Years of Glamour and Excess in the Heart of London, Barry Miles' London Calling: A Countercultural History of London since 1945 or Pete Frame's Rocking Around Britain, which have some coverage under Google Books. I'd avoid citing the Daily Mirror like the plague! Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:10, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks, I will check out those sources. Philafrenzy (talk) 12:15, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'll also rummage around those to see if I can come up with a good hook, as that's where good book sources really count. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:21, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- By the way, The Mirror, and The Daily Mail, are sound sources that far back. It was only later they became a bit of a joke. Philafrenzy (talk) 12:46, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Okay, from Frame Page 108 (this'll need to be worked into the article) - ALT2 ... that the Roaring 20s, at 50 Carnaby Street was one of the first black music clubs in London? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 20:15, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- Trouble is, that source seems to be wrong, both on the date and about the Roaring Twenties being one of the first black clubs. In the previous paragraph we have this confirming the existence of at least five Caribbean clubs in London by 1959, before the Roaring Twenties even opened. I think the original hook is sound. See my talk page for a discussion with another editor about the attribution of the quote to Hall. Philafrenzy (talk) 23:13, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Third opinion on hooks required. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:15, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- What about Alt3 " ... that 50 Carnaby Street was home to a series of nightclubs, including a 1950 bebop jazz club once described as like "hell on earth"? Philafrenzy (talk) 11:40, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
There is significant and unacceptable close paraphrasing verging on copyvio in the Club Eleven section, the basis for Alt3, all from the henrybebop.co.uk website, which appears to be the work of a single person and therefore probably not what Wikipedia considers a reliable source. The entire second paragraph is from it in one way or another—the opening phrase and succeeding quote is one paragraph from the cited page, and the rest is eerily similar. Compare the article's "On the evening of 15 April 1950, the club was raided by the Drugs Squad. Six musicians were arrested and appeared in court on drugs charges and Denis Rose was arrested by the Royal Military Police as an Army deserter." to the source's "On the night of 15th April, 1950, Club 11 was raided by the Drugs Squad. Six musicians appeared on drugs charges and Denis Rose was arrested by the Military Police as an Army deserter." I'm going to ask Nikkimaria to check the rest of the article if she's willing; if there are other significant instances, I plan to close the nomination. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:48, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
- Nikkimaria noted the use of an exact phrase from FN1, "a meeting place for black intellectuals", which is in a section sourced to FN4 and fails to acknowledge the copying. Single-user sources that appear unreliable by Wikipedia standards, in addition to the aforementioned FN11 (henrybebop.co.uk), include FN21 (sixtiescity.net), FN18 (which is, at best, a WP:LINKVIO and shouldn't be used), and FN12 and FN19 (Lucy Hale self-published). Since nominator Edwardx is on wikibreak through September 24, I'm going to wait for his return; I've pinged his talk page. I think if the article can be fixed to meet Wikipedia and DYK standards, there's enough meat here to make an interesting article. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:50, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
- I have reworded both parts and added an extra reference. I acknowledge the concerns about the sources, unfortunately those are the type of sources available for this sort of article and I think they are a bit stronger than you suggest. Henrybebop for instance seems strong to me even if not strictly meeting our criteria. As for the former FN18 "The Reggae Underground" I may be able to check the original shortly through Rock's Back Pages which I now have. Philafrenzy (talk) 23:16, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
Nope, I'm not waiting for Edwardx. Philafrenzy, the fact that you believe you have adequately reworded this to take care of the close paraphrasing tells me that it would be a waste of time to keep this nomination open—your failure to discern copyvio and close paraphrasing in your articles is a continuing problem with your DYK submissions. Perhaps next time you will take the matter more seriously, but I'm closing this nomination now. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:23, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
