Talk:Semaine sanglante

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Requested move 9 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus that "semaine sanglante" is sufficiently common in English-language sources to remain the title. (non-admin closure) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:43, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semaine sanglante → Bloody Week – Per WP:UE, the English language translation "Bloody Week" appears to be commonly understood. Google Ngrams shows the widespread use of "Bloody Week" and a cursory glance at my own sources (e.g. John Merriman's 2014 book Massacre) show it in use in English language sources. Grnrchst (talk) 17:39, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have not seen "Bloody Week" used in sources, but my sources are almost all in French. I'm not sure that many readers would understand it or look for it under that title. How about "Bloody Week (Paris Commune)"? Cordially SiefkinDR (talk) 20:01, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Tombs' The Paris Commune 1871, the only cited English language source in this article's bibliography, also uses "Bloody Week". (See pages 177-183) It's also used in the sources listed under Further reading. I can also point to Gluckstein's The Paris Commune and Hubbard's Bloody History of Paris for other English language sources that use "Bloody Week".

I think "Bloody Week (Paris Commune)" would be an unnecessary disambiguation to be honest. There aren't any other Wikipedia articles that "Bloody Week" could direct to, nor could I think of any candidates, in fact the redirect already exists. -- Grnrchst (talk) 22:09, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, let's go with "Bloody Week". SiefkinDR (talk) 06:24, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I have seen "Bloody Week" used in sources but honestly not as often. The bigger problem, I agree, is that it would need disambiguation from other "Bloody Weeks", i.e., it is not known as "the Bloody Week". To my eyes, Semaine sanglante is how it's best known even in the English language and is the best fit for the WP:CRITERIA: It's what sources most commonly call it and it has natural disambiguation from other meanings, not sacrificing precision just to use its English translation. czar 11:15, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The other "Bloody Weeks" listed here are the Spartacist uprising and Köpenick's week of bloodshed, and I haven't seen either referred to as "Bloody Week" in English language sources. (The French disambiguation page also doesn't mention what sources refer to those as a "semaine sanglante", nor do the articles themselves) Whereas "Bloody Week" is used in many English language sources (referenced above) to refer to the events of the Paris Commune. I just haven't seen a clear prevalence towards the French name in English language sources, though I'm open to being proven wrong. -- Grnrchst (talk) 11:41, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The source I trust most here is Horne (The Fall of Paris), who uses "semaine sanglante" more often (and "bloody week" in scare quotes). Edwards uses it too. It's been a few years since I've been through the sources, and I'm going off of the books in my library, but what I wrote is based on my memory when I originally became involved in this article. czar 02:57, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. If this French phrase is used in English then it is used in English, and this seems to be the case, and the desire to translate it is a misreading of WP:UE. Andrewa (talk) 13:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. It's certainly my sense that "semaine sanglante" is used more often than "bloody week" by historians writing in English. To add another to Grnrchst's list though, Eichner's new book also uses "Bloody Week", but as far as I'm aware this book also has the first regularly used English translation for Federated Legion of Women, so I think it's fair to say she translates more than most historians do. Personally, I think using "Bloody Week" as our title here would be an overtranslation. Like Czar, I think it opens disambiguation problems that we don't need to have. -- asilvering (talk) 02:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.