Talk:Russians at War/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

This stalemate and vandalism should be brought to the attention of neutral editors

This discussion seems to be locked into a stalemate but also seems to be verging into ad hominem territory. I took the time to examine as many references as I could of those cited in the User:EVS-VR version. There are many references there from journalists in major news outlets who actually saw this film and who unequivocally stated that it was not propaganda. There are also references related to the festivals which had scheduled premieres of the film, i.e. essential information for a Wiki page related to a film - all of these references were deleted, why?

Moreover, the page should be factual. I suggested restoring the last edit by User:EVS-VR as it mentioned the names of the authors or commentators and provided actual citations for their sources of information. The same should be done with any other sources - if anyone should add a new reference to the page there should not be just the title of a journal, but there should be the name of the author and the exact words said by that source. Authors who are referenced on the page are entitled to their opinions but in the interest of journalistic integrity, they should declare up front whether they actually watched the film and so based their opinion on direct experience. It is notable that many of those cited in the Controversy section never viewed the film. Their comments do not constitute informed opinion but serve as examples of censorship - this is not mentioned at all in the article as it stands. Critical voices are given the same weight as those who were properly informed - I am reminded of much of the climate change debate - such an imbalance is disingenuous at best, deliberately misleading at worst. I also find the gradual drift towards ad hominem arguments disheartening - Wikipedia should not be the place to express political disputes - it is meant to be a reference place for facts. Wikipedia should not be co-opted to wage political or ideological battles.

I would suggest that it is time to have someone neutral - who can declare no vested interests in either side - to step in and make a decision. Respectfully, a user with a handle such as 'stoptheprop' does not seem like a neutral party. Surely Wikipedia can find someone with no opinions on one side or the other who can advise. Complexity1 (talk) 03:40, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Yourself, UrbanVillager, EVS-VR and that random long IP address beginning with 2605 are all clearly the same person or part of the same network, repeating exactly the same talking points. Please stop harassing actual Wikipedia editors because you're not getting what you want. Stoptheprop (talk) 08:26, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe the senior editors and Wikipedia admins can see if we are the same person or different - I suggest passing the matter to them, including checking out if you you and ManyAreaExpert are the same person. The biases of these two editors must stop harming Wikipedia reputation and prevent ignorance to opinions of Western specialists regarding this film. EVS-VR (talk) 15:21, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Happy for that to happen. ManyAreas is a neutral senior editor so I defer to them. I personally reject claims of bias simply because I don't believe in Wikipedia pages being misleading, wholly positive PR for a film with very mixed, often negative, reactions. Please calm down. Stoptheprop (talk) 16:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Here is your evaluative bias (you use words "positive" vs "negative") whereas Wikipedia is the place simply to present information as is, whether or not you like this information or not. My version presented verified information of experts' opinions and facts about festivals. I didn't include opinions of people who clearly stated that they haven't seen the film (such as many pro-Ukrainian politicians and outlets). I am sympathetic to Ukrainian people in this war, our family even took 3 refugees to live with us, but here I believe Ukrainians three the baby with the water when they started their uninformed protests. You are free to add more information (citing exact words and names of experts) and facts as long as the sources saw the film and could be trusted. Nobody can trust opinions of the sources which didn't see the film, it would be just emotional reaction to trigger words or images from the teaser or the title of the film. EVS-VR (talk) 19:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I compared two versions, the version of User:EVS-VR is a good version for a fresh start. It has a proper structure and many more sources than the current version. I also advise contacting the senior editor who protected this page, to discuss the current standoff between editors. I agree with editors who think that the page is outdated and doesn't include reception by journalists who watched the film and published their opinions. 64.229.151.157 (talk) 02:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Cherry-picking, again

@UrbanVillager, regarding your edit [1] . You removed
DW noted that the film is controversial. The producers say the film is anti-war. Critics criticize it for sympathizing the invading soldiers and for not informing the viewer on the Russian war crimes. On the other side, "Trofimova's film is considered one of the few documentary video evidence from the Russian side of the front."
and replaced it with
Germany's DW News: "Trofimova's film is considered one of the few documentary video evidence from the Russian side of the front."
This is cherry-picking again. It has been discussed before - see Talk:Russians at War#Ms Bassel hadn't watched the film when she criticized it .
Your edit removed the reference to Historian Ian Garner noted that Trofimova's claim that she did not have official permission to film the soldiers "hardly stands up to scrutiny in a country where independent journalism simply does not exist" , again. Please attend previous concerns before re-adding your text with edit war.

Also, a warning against edit warring: WP:EW is not allowed, please avoid it and seek consensus on a talk page first. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:47, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I see that the content of the main page is reversed to the very old version, and the history shows that the User:Manyareasexpert had many big cuts, including those that indeed look like cherry-picking. I saw several important suggestions from the User:UrbanVillager, User:EVS-VR and others but now I see the new information disappeared again. It looks like vandalism to me. Now the page misses important evaluations of the film from the journalists who saw the film, and the film's history at the 6 festivals. Now the editors have to dig it from the history, and it would be better if someone who has access to editing, be more respectful to the verified information. I thought the information spoke for itself, but I guess I have to collect and present whatever pieces I can find in history. It would be helpful if User:Manyareasexpert stops their cherry-picking cuts and keep the added referenced information, even if they didn't like it. Complexity1 (talk) 22:47, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I looked at the edit by User:UrbanVillager, there was nothing wrong with it, it should be added. 2605:8D80:6C2:EB3F:2010:EC53:D148:2BBA (talk) 01:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Why didn’t you re-add what was removed? Why did you remove a ton of sourced material? I think what you did was much worse. 109.245.33.91 (talk) 14:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

The editor has a history of WP:BALANCE violation edits, adding a misleading and false material. If you want to dive into their edits you are welcome to bring here those pieces which you'd like to re-add. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 14:28, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Hold on, the question wasn’t about the editor, ad hominem attacks make me question your good faith. Why did you remove a ton of sourced material? ‘You can say what you’d like to re-add’ is not an answer, could you please answer? 178.148.167.128 (talk) 14:46, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

@User:Manyareasexpert, you do cherry-picking probably much more than others as you consistently remove sourced content and suggest irrelevant content. My well-sourced text proposed on September 25, and then on October 1, 3 was completely removed by you. Today I checked the history of edit, and I see you slashed another big parts of sourced text. Yet, you keep offering irrelevant parts, such as that Toronto police was not aware of threats (irrelevant if the TIFF had its own security and if the TIFF CEO described threats in his public speeches twice and gave the interviews on this matter - sources that you removed); or you remove sources confirming that other festivals kept the film in the program but cancelled public viewing due to threats. This is BAD FAITH and cherry-picking behaviour.EVS-VR (talk) 15:15, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Your edits have been nothing but pure Russian propaganda and propaganda for the film. Please stop. Stoptheprop (talk) 14:56, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@User:Manyareasexpert, no need to attack me personally, I'd like to remind you of Wikipedia:No personal attacks. I re-added the sourced content and replaced the DW content as per your objection, as well as added Garner's quotes that you also requested. There are negative reviews about the film in the article as well and it's not up to us to decide what's cherry picking and what isn't, because then the argument could be made that most of the negative comments about the film were made by those who haven't seen it. In my opinion that's not relevant, but Wikipedia doesn't care about my opinion. Let's stick to the sources, thanks.--UrbanVillager (talk) 07:47, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

no need to attack me personally
Where's the personal attack? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm reviewing your new edit [2]. You re-added Without permission from the Ministry of Defense, and ... , she eventually embedded herself with a Russian battalion, again, after it was removed, stating it as a fact, while this is producer's claim, and is disputed in the article further below. Please don't push your POV with edit war. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

You add Ukrainian director Olha Zhurba noted that though she hasn't seen the film at the time of her statements expressed on September 4, 2024, she raised concerns about the film’s empathy towards Russian soldiers, sourced to more than an hour long youtube video. Where in the video she says that? If she hasn't seen the film, why to include it, at all? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:23, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Time: (Zhurba didn't see the film): 0.32, 0.34'02"

Time: (concerns about the film's empathy): 0:35'12

Many of the critics that you and other editors cite, including Freeland, the Kiev independent and others - didn't watch the film. The film was viewed only by registered buyers of tickets at the screenings in Venice and TIFF. Other festivals didn't have public screenings due to security reasons. If you're proposing we exclude all the statements from those who were not registered attendants of these festivals (including videos with reviewers who only saw the teaser), do remove them, but that won't leave almost any criticism of the film in the article. If that's what you'd like.

--UrbanVillager (talk) 19:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

We are discussing this particular case, which you included not because you value Zhurba's opinion, but because you are pushing "They didn't watch the film" narrative. You have no good sources for it, so you are engaged in WP:SYNTH to squeeze it into the article. Please stop. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:35, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

You asked for the timecodes and now are asking me to stop. I'm confused.--UrbanVillager (talk) 14:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@ManyAreasExpert, should I assume this part can stay, or is there something else that you believe should be changed regarding this? --UrbanVillager (talk) 12:35, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

No, when editors oppose your edit with arguments and call you to "please stop", you should not assume the contested part can stay. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:56, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

You change Ukrainian producer Darya Bassel to The Ukrainian producer of Zhurba’s film Darya Bassel. No, Bassel is not just the producer of Zhurba’s film. What's the point of such a change? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:25, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd appreciate a bit more effort on your end to use proper English so we may communicate more effectively. Zhurba's film had both Ukrainian and Swedish producers. This way, Bassel's title is more accurate. The only setting where Bassel could have had a chance to see the film was in Venice, and the reason why she was in Venice was because she was co-producing Zhurba's film. This association is important to confirm that Bassel had a chance to see the whole film and not just the teaser. --UrbanVillager (talk) 19:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Please use reliable sources to represent her title more accurate. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:36, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

How's this?--UrbanVillager (talk) 14:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

"Ukrainian producer Darya Bassel". ManyAreasExpert (talk) 17:05, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I now see your issue is not with saying "Ukrainian producer", but "of Zhurba's film". Sure, we can add "Ukrainian producer Darya Bassel", though I would note that she is the producer of Zhurba's film as well elsewhere, as I believe it to be relevant in the context of this topic. But not relevant enough to argue about this indefinitely, to be honest. So, I'll add just Ukrainian producer for now and we can discuss the other part of my comment here. --UrbanVillager (talk) 12:35, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

You add As the press noted, none of the participants of this protest saw the film with 7 references. Please give a reference and a quote confirming this. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

The references and quotes already listed (I assume you've carefully read what you reverted before reverting) give the timeline and locations confirming this, plus participants themselves said it to the journalists, as cited in the sourced text. Practically all videos of the reviewers that discussed the film (except Dolin and Mansky) have admissions of these reviewers that they haven't seen the film. Several Canadian politicians who organized protests at TIFF and posted their statements on X did it well before the TIFF public screening on the 17th. Freeland did watch it after her statement, which she issued in British Columbia on the 10th and, therefore, could not have been physically at the industry screening the same day in Toronto. She was also not in Venice, so she had no possibility of watching it before issuing the statement.--UrbanVillager (talk) 19:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Exact reference and quote, please ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:37, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

For example, "the people who managed to get this film cancelled almost certainly haven’t seen it." [3]--UrbanVillager (talk) 14:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

So it's one source's opinion, not a fact, as you tried to present it. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 17:07, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

As is every sourced sentence on Wikipedia. But I'll try to reword it a bit so it takes what you're saying into consideration. --UrbanVillager (talk) 12:35, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

You add Many critics who saw the film praised it for the anti-war spin with 8 or something references. I open the first reference Канал TVO не покажет спорный фильм "Русские на войне" – DW – 11.09.2024 and it says TVO will not show the controversial film "Russians at War", thus not confirming your text. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:40, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

But the source also notes the "anti-war statement" in the body of the article. I'm not sure if this is clear, but when a source is listed, it's not only in reference to the headline.--UrbanVillager (talk) 19:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

The source is not saying Many critics who saw the film praised it for the anti-war spin. Quite the contrary: Critics believe that this is an attempt to "humanize" Russian soldiers and express sympathy for them. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

No, it's not to the contrary, it says that too, as seen by critics. Would you re-word it?--UrbanVillager (talk) 14:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

it says that too
Not "too". The source you supplied is not supporting the text you added. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 17:10, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Will fix it, since you haven't answered my request to reword it. Feel free to reword it differently. --UrbanVillager (talk) 12:35, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

You removed The film sparked backlash from some regional experts, Canadian politicians and the Ukrainian-Canadian community, who characterized it as "Russian propaganda". Trofimova admitted to entering Russian-occupied Ukrainian territories without Ukraine's permission while making the film, while embedded with Russian soldiers invading the country. Why was it removed? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:44, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I didn't remove it, it was moved and reworded to: "Zhurba’s and Bassel’s opinions were quickly echoed in Ukrainian and Ukrainian-Canadian communities, as well as Canadian politicians who characterized it as Russian propaganda." in the Protests section. The accusations of the film being Russian propaganda also appear at other parts of the article:

"The film was criticized as Russian propaganda,..."

"Ukraine's Ambassador to Switzerland Iryna Venediktova ... urged ZFF to ban the screening of 'Russians at War' to avoid being weaponised by Russian propaganda".

Bassel pointed out that the film pictures as Russian invasion started in 2022, while Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014; people shown in film repeat Russian propaganda narratives..."

The second part of the sentence also remained in a reworded sense: "Without permission from the Ministry of Defense, and taking advantage of a lax approach of local commanders, she eventually embedded herself with a Russian battalion." If you'd like, we can add "admitted", if that makes it seem somehow more clear.

Again, I hope you carefully read everything before reverting and demanding a consensus. --UrbanVillager (talk) 19:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Those are not "protests" and there are more experts then Bassel saying it's propaganda. Your rewording is changing the correctly represented WP:WEIGHT to incorrect. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with the old wording back, I don't think it makes much of a difference.--UrbanVillager (talk) 14:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll add it back then. --UrbanVillager (talk) 12:35, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

UrbanVillager and their friends are attemting to characterise criticism as something that only comes from Ukrainians, whereas there is plenty of criticism from the wider international community. It's an insidious thing to do. Have linked other sources in the new section. Stoptheprop (talk) 15:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

You removed Trofimova has been accused of whitewashing Russian war crimes., why? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I completely agree with you on this, that should be in the article. --UrbanVillager (talk) 19:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

You add Protesters admitted to not seeing it, saying "the trailer was enough", "I don’t want to listen to any stories, any explanations, any justifications from Russians", and "They are war criminals" while the source ‘Russians at War’: Trofimova film irks Ukraine at Toronto, Venice film festivals - The Washington Post says “Pretty much the entire discussion has been framed so far by people who have not seen” it, Trofimova told The Washington Post. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:48, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

So, "the trailer was enough", "I don’t want to listen to any stories, any explanations, any justifications" and "They are war criminals" are quotes by Iryna Melnykova, but the last quote is, indeed, by Trofimova. So, I agree it shouldn't say "the source", but rather "Trofimova". That makes sense to me. --UrbanVillager (talk) 19:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, @ManyAreasExpert, let's first agree on how to proceed with these areas that you find problematic, and then add new stuff, as you yourself first requested a consensus, I find it counter-productive for you to add content after reverting my sourced content which we are still discussing. If you'd like to revert to the version that I created, with the amendments we are discussing here, we could go on and discuss your new edits, so we may include them as well. I think that's best for the quality of the article.--UrbanVillager (talk) 14:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

let's first agree on how to proceed with these areas that you find problematic
Offer incremental changes to discuss, one by one.

we could go on and discuss your new edits
Note how many objections I presented against your change and how you presented none objections against my change. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 17:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll re-add the text with all the changes we agreed on. I'll re-add your new changes that I previously reverted (with some grammatical fixes), I'm fine with them, I was just against a different set of rules for my edits and your edits. I know you already wrote you have a bad opinion of me, but I really do care about reaching a consensus and having a good quality article. --UrbanVillager (talk) 12:35, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I have added a separate section proposing we revert the page to this version, as constant editing by non-native English speakers with what appears to me to be a COI have rendeered the page unreadable

http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Russians_at_War&oldid=1247878515 Stoptheprop (talk) 15:12, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@UrbanVillager, you re-added the contested content, objections against which were raised here, again. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:54, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

References

WP:OWN

Per WP:OWN, no one, no matter what, has the right to act as though they are the owner of a particular article (or any part of it). I've engaged with User:Manyareasexpert regarding the vast sourced content that was added and addressed all of the user's concerns, changed the text in line with those concerns and no further concerns have been voiced by that or any other user in the talk segment. Therefore, the changed text was added back. However, this user is now requesting that everyone needs to go discuss the sourced content with this user prior to any additions, without any specific issues noted. This is a violation of WP:OWN, as if sourced content needs to be verified by a specific user before it is added without any concrete concerns listed. If there are any parts of this article that are still problematic, as always, I'm happy to discuss, as I already did. But User:Manyareasexpert engaging in an edit war without listing what's wrong with the new version is not constructive and I'm afraid is not in good faith. --UrbanVillager (talk) 12:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I've engaged with User:Manyareasexpert regarding the vast sourced content that was added and addressed all of the user's concerns, changed the text in line with those concerns and no further concerns have been voiced
You just returned your previous version from 21 October [4] . Like this Talk:Russians at War#c-Manyareasexpert-20241022173400-UrbanVillager-20241022151000 never happened: Why have you created "Footage rarity" and "Trofimova's conduct" chapters? "Political pressure"? Why is Lung under "Anti-war content" chapter? Why is Pronchenko under "Footage rarity"? Why have you returned Zhurba? Why cherry-picking "Have not seen the film", again? Why is "Trofimova has been accused of whitewashing Russian war crimes" under "Protests"?
Furthermore, your version relays festivals' statements too much, in violation of WP:WEIGHT. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:12, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I may have returned the wrong version before the changes, could you please direct me to the version with the changes regarding the sourced content? You kept reverting and made the whole situation very confusing, to be honest. It would've been far easier to make the changes in the added sourced content as we discuss the issues with them on the talk page, instead of going over the history and trying to make sense of it that way. --UrbanVillager (talk) 17:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

No, the correct way is to return to the consensus version and propose your changes in the talk, first. See WP:CONS.
the version with the changes regarding the sourced content
What? Anyway, just start from the consensus version and propose changes in talk. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 17:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Consensus is reached by discussing issues, which we did. As you raised no further concerns regarding concrete issues you raised during our discussion, the sourced content was re-added. What you're asking is a reversal of WP:BOLD and violation of WP:OWN, blocking and reverting any changes that aren't approved by you. That's not what building a consensus is all about, and you can't exploit the phrase "There's no consensus" to forever prevent any changes being made, especially after they've been discussed. You mentioned new issues with some of the sections and the content in those sections, could you care to elaborate on why these are problematic and how we could resolve them? Let's just take a deep breath and resolve everything without any edit warring. --UrbanVillager (talk) 18:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

As you raised no further concerns regarding concrete issues you raised during our discussion
You apparently missed that, again: Talk:Russians at War#c-Manyareasexpert-20241104131200-UrbanVillager-20241104125800

As you raised no further concerns regarding concrete issues you raised during our discussion, the sourced content was re-added. What you're asking is a reversal of WP:BOLD and violation of WP:OWN, blocking and reverting any changes that aren't approved by you
You need to address the concerns raised. Don't return the contested edits until it's done.

could you care to elaborate on why these are problematic and how we could resolve them?
Don't create sections per your own judgement. If you are insisting on a change, it's on you to justify it. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 18:25, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

At this point, what you're doing constitutes vandalism. Wikipedia editors are free to add sourced content without having to explain themselves to a user demanding blank explanations for every edit. The issues you brought up have been dealt with. I'm open to further discussing any additional issues, but you need to stop engaging in vandalism by removing sourced content. You do not own the article. --UrbanVillager (talk) 13:18, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors are free to add sourced content without having to explain themselves
No, see WP:CONS and WP:ONUS - While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and other policies may indicate that the material is inappropriate. Such information should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:19, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Carefully read what you just quoted yourself. You have listed no policies that indicate which material is inappropriate, therefore how can I argue for the inclusion of something you find problematic if you're not noting what's exactly problematic? You can't just call it problematic without noting which part violates which policy. Not as a blanket complaint against everything, but in a concrete way as we've already done for some parts. I have, indeed, addressed every single issue you raised, in respect of WP:CONS and WP:ONUS, and as you've raised no additional concerns, I've added the text. You can't complain and, once your complaints are addressed, continue to indefinitely oppose the addition of sourced content based on nothing, as that is in violation of WP:OWN. Are you doing everything you can to achieve a consensus? I am. And again -- if you have additional issues, I would be happy to discuss them and agree on necessary changes in the interest of improving the article. --UrbanVillager (talk) 14:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

You are the one vandalising. Stop adding EVS-VR's weird promotional article because you're both the same person or because it aligns with your own political goals. It's bizarre and you have a clear WP:COI. Stoptheprop (talk) 13:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

With that in mind, can we add these lines to the 'production' section, as I previously suggested in the 'production lies' talk section?

Several people subsequently cast doubt on Trifomova's account. "Given how Russia treats journalists, it is naive to believe that Anastasia Trofimova spent over six months embedded with a Russian military unit without Russian military or government oversight," said Oleh Nikolenko, Ukraine’s Consul General in Toronto.

In one previous Russian language interview, Trofimova herself admitted that she had actually coordinated access with Russian commanders, and went as high up as a brigade commander, who ensured that she would be given a uniform.

Others pointed to further inconsistencies in Trifomova's accounts: while Trofimova told Justin Ling that she was "not following that [Russia-Ukraine] conflict in 2014, 2015, 2016," she is identifiable in footage from Russia-occupied eastern Ukraine in 2014, which Russia was trying to style as a "civil war" at the time.

Stoptheprop (talk) 13:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

We can't use press located in Russia as it is government-controlled. I'm also doubtful about noname websites, and United Media was criticized, too. We need more established references. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:15, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

that's a shame because it's the russian sources that counter the narrative she spun to the english language media - she had a very specific story for the west and the inconsistencies are only evident when we use her interviews with the russian press Stoptheprop (talk) 13:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Here is Режиссерка «Русских на войне» — пропагандистка или антивоенная журналистка? — DOXA some independent info. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I was about to add Nikolenko from this source Consul General of Ukraine in Toronto outraged by Toronto International Film Festival's stance on film about ''good Russians'' | Ukrainska Pravda but we already have Garner and Mansky in the article elaborating on an issue and Nikolenko adds nothing to it. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I see it again, I mean the arbitrary, not justified reversion of the page by the User:Manyareasexpert to the outdated, under-sourced version. I support your position and the newest version of the page that has a much better structure and twice as many sources than the old one. Complexity1 (talk) 22:25, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@Manyareasexpertshouldn't interfere with this page due to the evidence of this editor"s bias in judgment shown in extensive history of editing the pages related to Ukraine. I support the new version of the page posted by User:UrbanVillager except its Introduction. The Introduction has lines about festivals, which belong to the Release sections. 2605:8D80:13E6:4BE9:157E:5A02:4FD4:EC3E (talk) 00:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

References