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Archive 1Archive 2

"Mississippi Goddamn" and radicalization

Hello @FlightTime: you reverted an edit describing it as personal opinion. The edit in question added "It was a key moment in her political radicalisation" in the article's discussion of "Mississippi Goddamn." As its source the edit cited the article: Feldstein, Ruth. ""I Don't Trust You Anymore": Nina Simone, Culture, and Black Activism in the 1960s." The Journal of American History 91, no. 4 (2005): 1349-379. http://www.jstor.org/stable/3660176. This is a peer-reviewed academic journal. Indeed it is one of the most highly esteemed journals in the field. In the article Feldstein states, "Indeed, "Mississippi Goddam" was the first of many songs that Nina Simone performed in which she dramatically commented on and participated in-and thereby helped to recast-black activism." The edit you deleted seems to be a perfectly acceptable summary of Feldstein, which in turn is an authoritative source. AugusteBlanqui (talk) 15:29, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Disputed content

I'll start the discussion for you. This claim is, as I see it, personal opinion and/or original research, but some users @AugusteBlanqui and Desperadowaitingforatrain: see it as OK to include. looking for others' opinions/comments. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:35, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I've rarely seen better WP:RS academic support for a statement such as that. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:39, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you @Martinevans123:, I stand corrected. @AugusteBlanqui and Desperadowaitingforatrain:, reverting my edit. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:48, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

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Most famous composition

I can't figure out why this sentence is still in this article: Her most famous composition to date is "Ain't Got No/I Got Life," a song in which she counts her wants and blessings. There many things wrong here:

  • most famous composition to date : this presupposes that she is still active, which is obviously not the case.
  • most famous composition to date: this presupposes that she wrote the song, which is also not the case.
  • There's no mention that this is actually a medley of two songs from the musical Hair.

I think this should be removed.

Cheers Popovik 14:54, 16 January 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Popovik (talk • contribs)

I agree, and have removed it. It was only added a few days ago, here, without explanation. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:51, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
PS: Re-added here, again without explanation, and so removed again. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:36, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Temperament

The edit summary for this deletion was: "86.153.127.144 has a point: "I haven’t noticed a temperament section in, for example, white male biographies?". Well, yes maybe 86.153.127.144 does have a good point. Maybe there are many white male biographies which also need such a section, as with white female biographies, black male biographies and all sorts of other biographies. But surely Simone's temperament was a particularly notable aspect of her lief and work? Maybe it was notable because she was black, or because she was a woman, or perhaps both?. I'm not sure. Perhaps that section needs renaming, or absorbing into "Critical reputation", or managed in some other way. But to dump it out of the article wholesale seems a little extreme? I think it's been there for quite a while and it all seems perfectly well-sourced. These were significant events and episodes in Simone's life, at least in the eyes of those around her. To just expunge all this looks a bit partisan. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:14, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Temperament is this case is perhaps the wrong word and not especially neutral. The books about Simone (especially the ones published after her death) point to a level of abuse and trauma that is closely related to developments in her personal life. And in this case that is perhaps where it belongs, especially as some of the issues highlighted have to do with her daughter. Karst (talk) 21:32, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
We typically don't call it out in a "temperament" section, though. The only place I'm used to seeing "temperament" sections is on various articles about dog breeds. Given the abuse and bipolar disorder, highlighting it in this way seems inappropriate. You're right that some of the content could potentially be used elsewhere, as I've mentioned on the IP editor's talk page—perhaps a small section about her family or somesuch. GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:41, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Um, that unknown anon IP with BT, geolocating to Solihull, made their second edit in 11 years there, adding a talk comment into the section heading? That's fine if you want to revert with Twinkle, but then removing the whole section for them and expecting the IP to fix this issue?? Martinevans123 (talk)
I'm not expecting them to fix anything -- that's why I'm discussing this here with you. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:22, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:31, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Canine comparisons notwithstanding, I must admit I had thought that "temperament" was quite appropriate for an artist like Simone. Especially in the absence of any clear diagnosis of mental illness. But I'd certainly not fight to keep it. Unlike all that sourced material. These were not just "slight temperamental quirks"; these episodes must have been quite frightening and disturbing for many. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:58, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm not trying to downplay her temper as "slight temperamental quirks," nor am I trying to say it wasn't frightening for those who experienced it. I'm just pointing out that a separate "temperament" section is very unusual for biographies, even for people known to have tempers. I'm happy for the sourced material to be worked into the article without it being called into a separate section—I largely didn't do so because I didn't know where the bit about her daughter should fit in. There's no date mentioned for when she went to Liberia, and her biography is currently split into dated sections. By the way, she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:12, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
It's not just her daughter though, is it? All that stuff with guns?? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:18, 26 August 2018 (UTC) p.s. yes, I see the bipolar diagnosis tucked away very discreetly in the "1993–2003: Illness and death section". Whether or not that's the most appropriate location for such a detail, about an Afro-American woman, I wouldn't like to judge. But I'm pretty sure those other life event details, previously placed under that "Temperament" section might have more immediate relevance to the average reader.
That part I can work in -- I'm just pointing out that some of it is hard to include chronologically. I have been working on doing so -- unfortunately my laptop just started experiencing some display issues so there's been a delay while I tried to diagnose them and then moved to a separate computer. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:22, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
I've done my best here: [1]. It's a little awkward, given that some of the events happened outside of that section's timeframe, but it was worse when I tried to break things up more chronologically. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:29, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
That seems perfectly reasonable. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:32, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

She was diagnosed bipolar. That's not a value judgment or a moral judgment. It's a medical diagnosis. You could change the header to "mental illness", but she was mentally ill her whole life, so that's a subject that could be discussed throughout the article rather than separated into its own section.
Vmavanti (talk) 22:37, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I tend to agree that it's misplaced in an "Illness and death" section, which might be read as suggesting it was just a contributory factor in her death, and not a long-lasting life-limiting condition that she had to battle with. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:40, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Agreed with Martinevans123 that including it in an "illness and death" section would imply being bipolar had something to do with her death. I also would worry about including the gun violence and abandonment of her daughter in a mental illness section, given that I don't think sources have explicitly attributed either to her mental illness. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:46, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps not directly, but reputable biographies have certainly attributed her temperament to her mental illness, and the issues over gun use and domestic abuse are part of her temperament. I would favour including examples of her temperament in the chronology of her career - they directly influenced her career trajectory - and a reference to her eventual diagnosis, which explained some of her earlier behaviour, in the appropriate later section. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:58, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
That sounds reasonable to me. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:01, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

"..the sixth child of a preacher"

"Simone's mother, Mary Kate Waymon ... was a Methodist minister and a housemaid. Simone's father, Rev. John Devan Waymon ... was a handyman.."

So why did her father have the title "Rev." and not her mother? Harfarhs (talk) 05:18, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Critical Reception Personal Attack

In 'Critical Reception', an editor inserted a personal attack on the music critic Robert Christgau. Not a good look. "Robert Christgau, who disliked Simone, argued that her "penchant for the mundane renders her intensity as bogus as her mannered melismas and pronunciation (move over, Inspector Clouseau) and the rote flatting of her vocal improvisations." Not a good look. RobotBoy66 (talk) 04:39, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Are you objecting to the inclusion of "who disliked Simone"? The quote itself is tendentious.AugusteBlanqui (talk) 08:01, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
(e/c) The text uses Christgau's own words - including the Clouseau reference - here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:03, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Well, that comment was specifically about Baltimore (1978)? Looks like he was actually lost for words over A Single Woman (1993) [2]. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:50, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Good point. I've tweaked the text to make that clear. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:02, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

BBC Proms

A whole program of BBC Proms was dedicated to Nina Simone. Where in the the page, this must be mentioned? Pouyakhani (talk) 13:08, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

 Fixed The following text was added to the "Honors" section in November 2019: "The Proms paid a homage to Nina Simone in 2019, an event called Mississippi Goddamn was performed by The Metropole Orkest at Royal Albert Hall led by Jules Buckley. Ledisi, Lisa Fischer and Jazz Trio, LaSharVu provided vocals." Dave.Dunford (talk) 14:06, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Influence

No doubt Ms. Simone was an outstanding performer, but she is an acquired taste for certain afficianadoes. Therefore, I question the line that states: "Simone is regarded as one of the most influential recording artists of the 20th century." If you took a survey or poll in the average town and asked people to name one song recorded by Nina Simone, I suspect that 95 out of 100 people could not name one tune, and probably never heard of her. Just because one writer in Ireland made that unsupported claim, does not make it true or worthy of inclusion in an encylopedia entry. I would suggest a revision to something like: "Simone is regarded as an influential recording artist in 20th century jazz and R&B genres. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.54.127.168 (talk) 15:00, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I was going to revert the edit because (1) the source does say "Simone is regarded as one of the most influential recording artists of the 20th century". But reading the whole article, I didn't see where the statement was supported, though I accept it as true. The Irish Times is considered a reliable source for news, but perhaps not so much for other reporting on culture, etc.
I'm in the 5% that could answer "Wild is the Wind". I wanted to learn more about her when David Bowie covered the song on Station to Station (back when you would read the album jacket cover to cover while listening to your new purchase). But (2) let's not forget that many artists are influential without being popularly known (e.g. Captain Beefheart, or Lenny Breau).
As for reverting, "an influential" is certainly less vulnerable to challenge than "one of the most influential", so I'm ready to let other editors bear the burden of deciding. Cheers. signed, Willondon (talk) 17:26, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there is a good way/place to mention the legal battles, both involving her music but also the execution of her will (TMZ link, I'm aware a reliable source would need to be found to include this) which led to the Nina Simone Estate being managed by people who were not her family. I feel like there's a way this could be included in this article but as someone who mostly writes articles about librarians, I'm not certain how. Suggestions? Jessamyn (my talk page) 17:40, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

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Nina Simone

Nina Simone (February 21, 1933 – April 21, 2003) was an American singer, songwriter, pianist, and civil rights activist. Her music spanned styles including classical, jazz, blues, folk, R&B, gospel and pop.

The sixth of eight children born to a poor family in Tryon, North Carolina, Simone initially aspired to be a concert pianist. However, after being denied admission to the Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia despite a well-received audition (which she attributed to racism), she started playing piano at a nightclub in Atlantic City. She changed her name to "Nina Simone" to disguise herself from family members, having chosen to play "the devil's music" or so-called "cocktail piano". She was told in the nightclub that she would have to sing to her own accompaniment, which effectively launched her career as a jazz vocalist. She went on to record more than 40 albums between 1958 and 1974.

Photograph credit: Ron Kroon for Anefo; restored by Bammesk

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In 1987, Simone scored a huge European hit...

There seems to be some confusion about the chronology and sequence of events described in this paragraph. My Baby Just Cares For Me was reissued by Charly Records in the UK in 1982 and became somewhat popular here immediately as a radio and album track, but the peak UK Official Chart position was #5 in 1985. The Chanel #5 advertisement, directed by Ridley Scott and starring Carole Bouquet, was made in 1986. I'm unclear what prompted the chart success in the UK in 1985, perhaps it was a different advertisement. It is correct to say that the chart success in mainland Europe was in late 1987 / early 1988, and was most likely prompted by the Chanel advert. Robjordan63 (talk) 15:02, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Opening section

The opening section goes into some detail about her early life, but only the last three sentences cover her illustrious and groundbreaking career as a musician - and there is no mention (other than three words in the opening sentence) of her political activism. Surely these paragraphs need to be rewritten to give a better balance? Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:02, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

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