Talk:Kamala Harris

The consensus version

I don't know where I can add a message requesting an edit to Kamala's wiki page, but I would like one of the mods to add a hyperlink to the 2010 California Attorney General's election that is in the second paragraph: "Born in Oakland, California, Harris graduated from Howard University and the University of California, Hastings College of the Law. She began her career in the Alameda County District Attorney's Office, before being recruited to the San Francisco District Attorney's Office and later the City Attorney of San Francisco's office. In 2003, she was elected district attorney of San Francisco. She was elected Attorney General of California in 2010 and re-elected in 2014. Can you link 2010 to the 2010 Attorney General's election? Thanks, Rhein Amacher, Tue May 10th 8:01 PM PST. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhein Amacher (talk • contribs) 03:01, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

The consensus version for describing KH's achievement is the first female vice president of the US, the first African-American, and the first Asian-American. I'm on vacation until mid-February 2021. Admins valereee, MelanieN, Drmies, Muboshgu please note and restore; otherwise, the "ethnic" sub-nationalists and trolls will have a field day. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:20, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I concur this is the consensus version and I have restored it. "First female" is the first sentence since it is the most reported and most historic. "First African-American and first Asian-American" is the second sentence. Terms like South Asian-American, Jamaican-American, and (per the one I just replaced) Caribbean-American and should not be added without a new discussion and a new consensus. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:00, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

The edits I made did not contradict the overall achievement of Harris being the "First African-American and first Asian-American" Vice President, it simply provided further accurate and separate cited detail regards her own personal family's ancestry. Though I can see the FAQ, I do Respectfully request that someone please guide me to where consensus was actually reached not to include this information. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 17:27, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Bodney, archives, linked at top of page. —valereee (talk) 18:33, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I was unable to spot the RfC in the archives, I now have thanks (maybe a simple specific wiki-link RfC: Should Kamala Harris be described as 'African American' in the lead? to similar previous archived discussions would quickly deal unknowing editors like me in future :) Thanks anyway. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 19:58, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

And Bodney, the additional information about her ancestry is included in the body of the article, just not in the lead. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, the lead reflects the article, but I do agree that not everything can or should be in the lead, especially when an article is likely to be extensive based on her own personal biography. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 19:58, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Should we tweak the FAQ? It says South Asian American throughout, which could be confusing. —valereee (talk) 17:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I think it should simply be "Asian American". I believe that is what the sources predominantly say. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

They say Asian-American specifically in reference to being vice president. In that position, she is not only the first South Asian, she is the first Asian. We say South Asian for other positions, such as senator where she was the first South Asian but not the first Asian. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

If one goes far enough back, you will discover the consensus was South Asian-American. Then Sen. Harris was picked by VP Biden to be the VP nominee, and a large number of editors were attracted to this page. South Asian-American is how Sen. Harris identifies, and that is what should matter. Rklahn (talk) 07:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I believe we had consensus that the largest group should be used for the "firsts", so rather than first South Asian-American VP-elect, first Asian American was what we went with. For the senate, first South Asian-American. My question was only whether that needed to be further explained in the FAQs. Not that anyone reads them, but it's good to document what current consensus is. —valereee (talk) 11:50, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Im not sure such a consensus existed, but I am also not the Oracle of consensus. That begin said, yes, there is value in documenting what the current consensus is. I think it moves us closer to consensus having some of the attributes of Stare decisis. I think that this idea floating around Wikipedia that consensus can be achieved, and in the next moment ignored, counterproductive. Rklahn (talk) 14:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Rklahn, I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're getting at with that final sentence. —valereee (talk) 15:28, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Please tweak the FAQ to reflect her new status. Yes, it should be the first female, first African-American, and first Asian-American, in that order. In my view, Af-Ams takes precedence over As-Ams in the context of the US, not only because they go back further in this history of the US (indeed on average they precede even European Americans), but also because they have played a major role in the creation of the American ethos. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

PS She is and will remain the second female African-American senator and the first South Asian American (senator) in US history. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:13, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, can you clarify what you mean by new status? —valereee (talk) 21:06, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, The point Im getting at is that true consensus on Wikipedia is illusory. On this very page, on this very subject, I worked hard with a group of Editors to achieve a consensus, which we did. Out in the open and on these Talk pages. Less than a week later, that consensus was ignored. So, any move that gets us closer to consensus meaning something is welcome to me. Rklahn (talk) 21:01, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Rklahn, diffs please? I'm still not following. —valereee (talk) 21:05, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

By new status I meant from senator to VP-nominee (and VP-elect and eventually VP). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:46, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Valereee I cant even find the consensus Im referring to in the Talk Archive. Im reasonably sure it happened before the Talk pages were archived at all, so maybe it got lost in the shuffle. I think at this point the best move for me is to drop the point, which is minor anyways, and to say that I support efforts to document the consensus, whatever it is. Rklahn (talk) 22:09, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

please read the FAQ above--RegentsPark (comment) 13:55, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

First African American is disingenuous (at the very least) to say she is African American. Her father was Jamaican...how is this a qualifier for African American inclusion? The last I checked Jamaica was in the Caribbean and not on the continent of Africa. My asking this question and pointing out the obvious probably makes me a racist and surely a half dozen other socially stigmatizing labels. Though an answer would be appreciated. Signed an unimportant IP address editor.2600:1700:7610:41E0:C5FD:ED64:EB06:3ADA (talk) 22:58, 16 December 2020 (UTC) How do you think the Afro-Jamaicans wound up in Jamaica? Magic? Volunteer Marek 23:04, 16 December 2020 (UTC) Read the FAQ at the top of the page. This has been answered countless times already. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:19, 16 December 2020 (UTC) Wow! what a friendly and courteous answer from a arrogant and aggressive editor. I asked a question and I get sarcasm. Though in your response you do agree with me and yourself call her Afro-Jamaican and not African-American...hmm...interesting...don't ya think? This is probably why this article and many others do not get improved and only sink deeper into the abyss. The second response was much friendlier and appreciated. Thank you. Though I still find it inaccurate and barring a family tree likely inaccurate to be described as it is. Wouldn't one of the terms Black Caribbean, Afro or Black West Indian or Afro or Black Antillean or Afro-Jamaican (as the first respondent used) to be more accurate in describing her ancestry seeing as no documentation or family tree is provided or cited within the article itself. I would think an encyclopedia should be as factual and reference filled before taking a large leap (of faith with assumption) such as this article has done. Thank you and have a blessed day. 2600:1700:7610:41E0:64D8:8847:54E7:E855 (talk) 09:57, 17 December 2020 (UTC) I am Australian and only drop in here occasionally. To answer the comments above, her father was Afro-Jamaican. As she is American, that makes her both Afro-American and Jamaican-American. In Australia, we have politicians who were child immigrants from Malaysia, but they are both Malaysian-Australian and Chinese-Australian. As with many people, if you look at enough generations, you find all sorts of interesting history. --Scott Davis Talk 10:37, 17 December 2020 (UTC) This is well covered ground. Countless editors have spent a long time discussing this, and 2600:1700:7610:41E0:64D8:8847:54E7:E855, you have brought nothing new to the conversation, and ask the same questions countless editors have asked. Please take the time to cover the discussions in the archives. And what the heck? Ill repeat this too. You are confusing race with ethnicity. Race is grouping based on society's view. Ethnicity is grouping based on how people see themselves in common with others. Ms. Harris race is unimportant. Her ethnicity is paramount. She is African-American and South Asian-American. Rklahn (talk) 14:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

One issue that deserves a lot more attention in this article is her relationship with Willie Brown. While a 29-year-old deputy district attorney, Harris had an affair with then 60-year leader of the California legislature Willie Brown. While they were dating, Brown appointed Harris to two paid commission posts, and effectively jump-started her political career. As she would likely never have had a political career otherwise, an item of this significance should be prominently mentioned, perhaps in the lede. Certainly it deserves more than part of a sentence buried deep within the article. Vinny Gambino (talk) 22:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

We have discussed the Willie Brown connection many times, and seemed to reach a consensus that presents the facts in a balanced encyclopedic way with an appropriate amount of weight. That being said, if you have a proposed edit, let's talk about it. Rklahn (talk) 22:43, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I also have a few of questions regarding Harris' past employment history, specifically her being hired as Alameda county Deputy DA in 1990 (she was 26-years-old). Two of the requirements for that job is almost always to have clerked for a judge and have experience as an attorney in private practice or as a Deputy DA. Harris had neither. In fact, she never had a job until she was given her Deputy DA job. It should be noted in the article, in my opinion, that she had a resume that should have precluded her from getting that job. She claims to have gotten "involved" with Willie Brown in 1994. Well, the lack of a worthy or notable resume seems to indicate someone - someone of considerable influence - pulled strings to get her that Deputy DA job in 1990. Willie Brown was certainly someone who at that time, being Speaker of the CA Assembly, could have arranged her employment as a Deputy DA in Alameda county. Alameda county was in his district at that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:9000:6201:a79b:2913:a3bc:f1d3:c561 (talk)

Your opinion of the matter has no bearing whatsoever on a Wikipedia article. If you have an actual suggestion of an addition to an article, then by all means produce one, sourced to a reliable source. Zaathras (talk) 04:26, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't think the requirements are that high. See for example Indeed's list of open positions.[1] IIRC, there was little interest among graduates to work for the county DA. In any case, you would need a source that said their was something exceptional about this. Otherwise, it's just a case of a law grad getting an entry level job that paid below average. TFD (talk) 20:13, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 July 2024

Kamala Harris is only technically African American. She is mostly from Indian decent and was raised by a Hindu mother. Her grandfather was a slave owner in Jamaica. 2601:7C0:CC01:74A0:E964:957F:AC56:74DD (talk) 13:23, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Discused, and rejected many times. Slatersteven (talk) 13:25, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Slatersteven – Could you link to the discussion. Seems to me if Harris was white this would be front page news. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Check the talk page archives and then read the FAQ. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

The archived discussions lend themselves primarily to identification issues. There is one contention, however, that the idea of Harris' grandfather being a slave owner lacks weight, which of course is debatable in terms of someone's biography, and that this idea is not covered in secondary sources. If this latter point is actually true that would be a reason to not include, as all statements must be reliably sourced. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:17, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

A quick search reveals that there are numerous sources that cover the issue. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:26, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Which say it was a great-great-great-grandfather, but unproven. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 July 2024

Under the section "Notes", comment d is not substantiated, and is likely false. Please add Delhatch (talk) 23:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done The footnote was originally text within the same paragraph, attached to the references at the end. Largely it is somebody's OR or Synth starting from those references. So I just deleted it. -- M.boli (talk) 02:58, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Presidential Nomination

If I'm not mistaken, Joe Biden just nominated her as his successor. I take it someone with permissions will make this change? SirShaunIV (talk) 18:24, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

@SirShaunIV Joe Biden has nominated her HOWEVER the caucus has not. Democrats held primaries to nominate Biden. He can't just do that. Heddingite (talk) 18:40, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Biden endorsed her. He doesn't control the delegates other than to release them from being bound to him. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:43, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I know, but having been named as his endorsement is noteworthy. Does it not belong on the page? SirShaunIV (talk) 18:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I know, but having been named as his endorsement is noteworthy. Does it not belong on the page? SirShaunIV (talk) 18:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I see the endorsement has already been added Frankserafini87 (talk) 02:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Not African America

Her mother is Indian, her father is Jamican. She is not African-American as India is not part of Africa nor is Jamica! 72.255.169.73 (talk) 18:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

See the FAQ near the top of the page. Americans from the West Indies (including Jamaica) can identify as African-American. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:01, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

The FAQ is malformed. 202.89.148.53 (talk) 01:35, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Noting these definitions from Wiktionary:

African-American

1. A member of an ethnic group consisting of Americans of black African descent.

Indian-American

1. An American with South Asian ancestry or extraction.

See also WP:COMMONTERM, African Americans, & Indian Americans. If you still have questions about this, perhaps read the WP:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue essay. Peaceray (talk) 02:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

The last I checked, 90% of Jamaicans are of African descent. Indeed, the article states Kamala Harris's Jamaican American father, Donald J. Harris, is of Afro-Jamaican ancestry. Peaceray (talk) 02:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't this mean, then, that she is Afro-Jamaican not African-American? I'm not expecting the article to change out the latter for the former, and black is still black, but I have always wondered why media refers to her as African-American when she is Afro-Jamaican. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 14:17, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

No, as she was born in America, thus she is American. Slatersteven (talk) 14:24, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Of course she's American, that's not the point. American isn't pertinent to her racial and ethnic origins, as we understand racial and ethnic origins as well as heritage. At least that's what I've always learned and have been taught for more than 60 years. Has there been a change in how a racial or ethnic identity is assigned per heritage? A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 15:23, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Jamaica is neither a race nor a continent. But if we accept it as such (do RS?) then she would not be Afro-Jamaican, she would be Jamaco-American (which as far as I know is not a thing). Slatersteven (talk) 15:36, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Her father is referenced in media repeatedly as Afro-Jamaican. Harris herself has referred to her father as Afro-Jamaican. Which leads me to believe she would not only reject your identity nomenclature ("Jamaco-American"), but would be insulted by it. I know that to me, it has an insulting and dismissive ring to it. You might want to strike it. In the meantime, here's a good article on Jamaican culture, ethnicity, heritage.[2] A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 01:29, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Punctuation in Early Paragraph

The sentence that reads "Following the withdrawal of Joe Biden from the 2024 presidential election, Kamala Harris began her campaign for president, if elected, Harris would become the first woman and the first Asian President of the United States." should read "Following the withdrawal of Joe Biden from the 2024 presidential election, Kamala Harris began her campaign for president; if elected, Harris would become the first woman and the first Asian President of the United States."; alternatively, this sentence can be split in two as follows: "Following the withdrawal of Joe Biden from the 2024 presidential election, Kamala Harris began her campaign for president. If elected, Harris would become the first woman and the first Asian President of the United States." 2601:42:1:3FF0:E9AF:A37D:51F:8CFB (talk) 19:01, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

 Already done --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:33, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2024

Following Biden's withdrawal from the 2024 presidential election, he endorsed Harris to be his successor.[11] If elected, Harris would become the first woman and the first Asian AMERICAN President of the United States. 81.107.122.74 (talk) 19:02, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done – Muboshgu (talk) 19:05, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2024 (2)

mention how Harris is the presumptive nominee for the democratic nomination, after a quasi-endorsement from the incumbent President Biden, who has withdrawn 2804:214:86D8:B06E:1:0:B53D:A415 (talk) 19:11, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, she does not have the needed delegates at this point. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:14, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, she has not yet announced that she is running, although that is likely to come soon. Cullen328 (talk) 19:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:19, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

IPA pronounciation please, where is the stress/accent on her name.

jeebus as a user i want to know how to pronounce her first name, ipa is standard for lots of other articles, i'd like to see it for this cuz i've heard various pronunciations of kamala 2600:1011:B137:8DDB:E9A9:5437:6130:B441 (talk) 21:01, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

The IPA pronunciation is in footnote A, directly after her name in the first sentence of the article --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Need uppdaterad due to the fact Kamala is running for president

Kamala Harris has anounced that she is running for president of the USA, and would like to be nominated as of 2021-07-21. https://x.kamalaharris. Needs to be updated but her wikipedia page is ofcource protected 84.217.179.112 (talk) 21:28, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

It's been updated. What is out of date? – Muboshgu (talk) 21:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2024 (3)

When it says "as well as the first African-American and first Asian-American vice president.", change African-American to Jamaican-American as Kamala Harris's father is from Jamaica and not Africa Pyrokissr (talk) 22:41, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

As well as any other text that labels her African-American Pyrokissr (talk) 22:43, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: @Pyrokissr: See Q1 at the top of this page. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

African American

Kamala is not African American, she's part Jamaican and Indian 70.107.171.123 (talk) 23:26, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: See Q1 at the top of this page. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:34, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Removal of "the DREAM Act" and "advocacy for a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants" from the lead

An editor recently removed this part from the lead. Despite it being on the article for years. Why exactly was this removed? KlayCax (talk) 23:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

When is enough enough. 100.8.153.58 (talk) 13:42, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2024 (4)

Kamala Harris is NOT the “acting president of the Unied States.” Joe Biden is not pursuing re-election but he DID NOT resign his presidency. Even then, she would be president of the United States. This needs to be corrected. There is no “acting” president. We have presidents and president-elects. Thats it. 108.147.196.23 (talk) 00:01, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Where does it say that? Acroterion (talk) 00:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, she was briefly acting president a few years ago when Biden had a colonoscopy. So the statement is true. I don't think it is useful and think it should be removed; but will wait for others to opine. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:08, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Removed it Bohbye (talk) 00:08, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. It's a bit of confusing detail that's really not needed, and technically, she's still vice president even if "acting" as President.. Acroterion (talk) 00:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

It's in the body from 2021 as she She became the first woman, and the third person overall, to assume the powers and duties of the U.S. presidency under Section 3 of the Twenty-fifth Amendment. I think that's OK and interesting, just not lead-worthy. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

That's reasonable, and I agree with the OP that a title like "acting President" isn't a thing. Acroterion (talk) 00:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

It is a "thing" as per our article: Acting President of the United States. It's just uncommon and hasn't actually resulted in any actions. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

My point is it's a function, not an office. Acroterion (talk) 02:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

still misleading, especially with the current context where JB withdrew his nomination for president but is still president. Bohbye (talk) 00:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Removal of Shyamala Gopalan and Donald J. Harris from the lead

Both are well-known, famous figures within their respective fields (Post-Keynesian and Marxist thought for Harris; isolating and characterizing the progesterone receptor gene for Gopalan). Definitely deserves a sentence mention.

Wouldn't call it WP: PEACOCK or WP: NPOV pushing to note that her parents are notable, respected figures. KlayCax (talk) 00:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

[sortakinda copied from my usertalk]: KlayCax edited her father's article, adding "Marxian economist" to the very first sentence, citing only a paper he wrote on Marxian economics. Writing a paper about a subject is not sufficient to highlight one descriptor above all else. That was immediately after inserting "Marxist" (not even "Marxian") into the lead of this article, when it's not even covered in the body. This strikes me as a pretty blatant pair of POV edits. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 01:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

• 1.) That's a guilt-by-association fallacy. Individuals like Ron Reagan don't possess the ideology of their fathers or family. In fact, I was actively adding into both articles that they were not close to one another, and the friction between them.
• 2.) Donald J. Harris has been widely described as an economist working in the post-Keynesian and Marxist tradition. See here, here, here, and others.
• 3.) Other articles also highlight the political beliefs of individual's parents. If it's a notable part of their career.

"Marxist economist" and "Marxian economist" have both been used as descriptors at the beginning of articles. See Paul Sweezy, Neal Wood, and many other pages that use "Marxist economist". I also added in: According to Steven Fazzari, an economics professor at Washington University in St. Louis, Harris "was a leading figure in the small group of economists who posited alternative visions to neo-classical mainstream thinking about markets, and focused on the importance of income distribution long before income inequality became a widespread concern." and although due to a divorce they are not "close" to another one. while stating in the edit summary that he was "More of a Louis Althusser[-type] one than a Marxist-Leninist, though".

This is perfectly in line with policy. KlayCax (talk) 01:53, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

You isolated "Marxist" among the many, many possible descriptors and inserted it into the first sentence of that article, then into the lead of this article. Not going off on these various tangents trying to justify it. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:17, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

He works in the Marxian tradition and has a significant influence on post-Keynesian economics. Just because some people are idiots doesn't mean we have to retract notable information from the article.

What other possible descriptors could we have use in the lead? The only ones I can think of relate to post-Keynesianism and Marxian economics. KlayCax (talk) 02:26, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

We usually don't try to sum up people in a single-word descriptor unless they are overwhelmingly known for just that single word. If just "economist" isn't enough (which it frankly is for the lead), "Jamaican-American" or just "American" are both more in line with other articles on marginally-notable academics. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Your text included calling her parents "notable" in wiki voice, which is PEACOCK. It's also not the case. Her mother's article was created in 2019 and her father's in 2020. They weren't noteworthy academics when they raised her; they likely would not have gotten articles if Kamala hadn't run for POTUS. And then there's the issue of why you would put the word "Marxist" so close to the top in the way that you did, especially if it doesn't even relate to her, but to her father. In present-day US politics, the implications of that word are obvious. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

1.) They were noteworthy academics when they raised her.

2.) Wikipedia notoriously lacks representation of scientists. Not a surprise that they were two examples of this.

3.) Because many Americans are idiots doesn't mean that we have to dumb the page down. At the very least, a basic overview of her family should be included, even if it's just "economist" and "biologist". KlayCax (talk) 02:00, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

We could easily just have "economist Donald J. Harris" and have it in the body that he "worked in the tradition of post-Keynesian and Marxian economics." While noting that after her parent's divorce they aren't close to one another and have a relationship that is frictional. KlayCax (talk) 02:02, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I think "economist Donald J Harris" is appropriate hear, if only because if he were a liberal or conservative economist he would probably be described simply as an economist. It presents an NPOV issue to unduly specify one's branch of economics in some contexts and not others. Unbandito (talk) 02:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm alright with "economist Donald J. Harris" in the lead before a one-sentence reference of his influence in the two economic philosophies. KlayCax (talk) 02:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Editoralizing re. "African-American"

So, this is currently the final paragraph in the answer to "Q1: Why does Wikipedia say that Kamala Harris is African American/Asian American/South Asian American?" on this talk page (emphasis mine):

"Also of note is the difference between race and ethnicity. Race is grouping based on society's view. Ethnicity is grouping based on how people see themselves in common with others. Ms. Harris's race is unimportant. Her ethnicity is paramount. Using this criteria, Ms. Harris is clearly African-American and South Asian-American."

Since Wikipedia operates off of reliable sources, and not primary research, can someone explain which reliable source this seemingly arbitrary "criteria" is based on? It's not in the PolitiFact article. 202.89.148.53 (talk) 01:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

You didn't read the Politifact article, did you? Here's an NBC News piece you're free to read or ignore. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:41, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Again, I must restate that it is not in the PolitiFact article. If it is, feel free to quote it or the part that it's paraphrasing. 202.89.148.53 (talk) 02:26, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

So you didn't read it. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

We also have an article with additional cites: Afro-Jamaicans. “According to the 2001 census, Jamaica's population is overwhelmingly of African descent, and the most common ethnic groups among Africans taken to Jamaica for slavery during the 17th century were the Akan (or Coromantee) from present-day Ghana and the Igbo people from present-day Nigeria.” “Jamaicans of African descent represent 76.3% of the population ….” [3] We should also stop thinking of the US as America. Most of the Western hemisphere is part of the Americas, and that includes Jamaica. Americas O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:46, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

"We should also stop thinking of the US as America. Most of the Western hemisphere is part of the Americas, and that includes Jamaica."

So Kamala Harris is African-American because "American" could technically be referring to "the Americas" and not the United States? Unreal. Thank you for such a stunning piece of original research. You've made my day. 202.89.148.53 (talk) 02:29, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I said no such thing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:59, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Kamala Harris is an American in the "United States" sense and is of black African descent. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

It is that uncomplicated, despite the efforts of some. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:33, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Noting these definitions from Wiktionary:

African-American

1. A member of an ethnic group consisting of Americans of black African descent.

Indian-American

1. An American with South Asian ancestry or extraction.

See also WP:COMMONTERM, African Americans, & Indian Americans. If you still have questions about this, perhaps read the WP:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue essay. Peaceray (talk) 02:15, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

It's extremely important because, as the response in Q1 states, "using this criteria, Ms. Harris is clearly African-American and South Asian-American."

That's because if we DON'T use that criteria, it is NOT "clear" that Kamala Harris is African-American and South Asian-American. So, once again, where did this criteria come from? The Wiktionary terms? Doesn't seem like it. 202.89.148.53 (talk) 02:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm against including WP: TRIVIA stuff like this in the lead of most politicians. Although it's definitely notable if she becomes the first female politician. As for South Asian-American? Maybe. KlayCax (talk) 04:00, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Her father is Jamaican so she's of Jamaican American descent. That's indisputable. She's also likely of Irish slave owner ancestry but that's probably not relevant. Shouldn't the Jamaican African aspect supplant the controversial African-American claim? She's not Elon Musk for instance and has no direct link to Africa. Media Matters argues that her ancestry doesn't make her less Black, but Black =/= African American or African-American. They can overlap, but aren't quite the same thing. 人族 (talk) 01:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Tell me, how did Kamala Harris obtain Irish slave owner ancestry? How would that have happened if she is of Jamaican descent? – Muboshgu (talk) 01:59, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Grammatical Issue

The lead section (first sentence of the third paragraph) has a comma error. Said sentence has an incorrect comma before the coordinating conjunction "but." Coordinating conjunctions should have commas when connecting two independent clauses; however, this comma connects an independent and dependent clause. We should remove the commma.

Attached is the sentence: "Harris sought the 2020 Democratic presidential nomination, but withdrew from the race prior to the primaries." WafflesBaconAndPuppies (talk) 05:38, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done YoPienso (talk) 14:24, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, the section "Awards and honors" (the first and only sentence of the third paragraph) has a grammatical issue. Said paragraph doesn't use an Oxford comma despite every list in the article using it. To maintain consistency, we should add a comma. Additionally, this paragraph incorrectly uses a semicolon. Semicolons should act as a period, connecting two independent clauses. However, this semicolon connects an independent and a dependent clause, which is incorrect.

Attached is the paragraph/sentence: "Harris was selected for the inaugural 2021 Forbes 50 Over 50; made up of entrepreneurs, leaders, scientists and creators who are over the age of 50." WafflesBaconAndPuppies (talk) 02:07, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Wording should be changed in 2024 presidential campaign section

"endorsing her to be the Democratic presidential nominee.[352] Harris also received endorsements from Biden" should probably remove 'also' or 'biden'. 49.183.71.1 (talk) 06:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I've copyedited, not exactly per your suggestion. YoPienso (talk) 14:43, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 July 2024

The sentence in th 2018 section says: "Later that month, Harris questioned Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen for favoring Norwegian immigrants over others and claiming to be unaware that Norway is a predominantly white country" and is unclear who is unaware. It should have a "for" inserted before the word "claiming." Mcdruid (talk) 07:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 07:47, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Wanda Kagan

Is all this really necessary or appropriate? Sounds gossipy to me. With fewer words and less drama we could have a sentence saying Harris took up the protection of women and children after a college friend told her of being abused.

This is the passage I think she me should be eliminated or drastically reduced:

Wanda Kagan, a high school friend of Harris, later told CBC News in 2020 that Harris was her best friend and described how she confided in Harris that she (Kagan) had been molested by her stepfather. She said that Harris told her mother, who then insisted Kagan come to live with them for the remainder of her final year of high school. Kagan said Harris had recently told her that their friendship, and playing a role in countering Kagan's exploitation, helped form the commitment Harris felt in protecting women and children as a prosecutor. YoPienso (talk) 14:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Information like this can be greatly shortened by moving attribution to the footnotes. For example, readers don't need to know that Kagan "later told CBC News in 2020." They don't need to know that "She said that Harris told her mother." Readers can infer that from the fact her mother asked Kagan to stay with them. TFD (talk) 15:17, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: I removed details about Kagan from the article at 14:17, 23 July 2024, with the edit summary, Boldly removing off-topic details since there's been no response to my question on Talk. Preserving ref to Kagan.
Today at 14:33, 23 July 2024, you reverted my edit with this summary: You posted yesterday! Please read talk page guidelines. In such a busy cycle, you need to give it at least a week and allowed people (e.g. I) who have had a hand in writing the article to think and look for sources. Again, at least a week.
I can't find any guidelines that require waiting any time at all, much less a week. WP:BRD, which is prominently announced at the top of the talk page, allows me to boldly edit without even opening the issue on talk. Can you please point me to the guideline about waiting at least a week? Also, please engage with me here and explain your opposition to removing the details about Kagan. Thanks! YoPienso (talk) 01:20, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Never mind, I guess; I see that The lorax restored my version. (An edit summary would have helped me find it much more quickly.) YoPienso (talk) 01:37, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Related: new WikiProject

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Kamala Harris

--Another Believer _(Talk) 15:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation

It seems very weird that the pronunciation of her name is in a footnote, and not straight in the text like it is on every other article. I think it should probably be moved. Also, Harris can be pronounced in a couple different ways, so it might be good to detail how it is pronounced as well. (Does she use the vowel in CAT or CARE?) — trlkly 17:09, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm trying to fix it but there's some weird extra characters being left over when I try adding it back. Can someone fix it for me? The lorax (talk) 14:54, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I think I managed to. YoPienso (talk) 01:42, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I think the pronunciation of "Harris" just has to do with individual ways of speaking, and as such, doesn't need to follow the way she says it. It's like MARE-ij or MAA-rij (marriage). YoPienso (talk) 01:45, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Isn't it Komma-la? That's doesn't seem much like 'father'. --Jameboy (talk) 09:12, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

KAH-mə-lə breaks down "Komma" into its two syllables, and also indicates which syllable is stressed. I don't understand your comment about "father." YoPienso (talk) 13:05, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

If you hover the mouse over the 'ɑ' (the second character in the IPA pronunciation guide at the start of the lead), it says "'a' in 'father'". --Jameboy (talk) 23:13, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I see; thanks. The first a in "Kamala" is pronounced like the a in "father." (Not like the a in, for example, "apple" or "cake.") YoPienso (talk) 02:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

illegal immigrants vs undocumented immigrants

There seems to be a disagreement between PrecariousWorlds and Slatersteven regarding which of the two phrases to use. The latter (in the comment for the first revert) suggests looking at the source, but unfortunately both cited sources are about her stance on gun laws, not immigration. (That points to another issue, one which--if addressed--might settle the dispute on terminology. Until then, perhaps a {{citation needed}} might be in order.)

It seems to me that neither terminology is neutral, as both expressions seem to signal a certain stance on the issue. I don't know of neutral terminology for this concept (though I have seen reference to the expression unauthorized migrant). Perhaps someone else is aware of some. Otherwise, how do we come to consensus on a disagreement such as this? Trackerwannabe (talk) 18:13, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

If it is unsourced, it should be just removed. Slatersteven (talk) 18:17, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Here are a few sources:

• Remarks by Vice President Harris Before Meeting With DACA Recipients, Dreamers without DACA, and Immigrant Rights Leaders
• Harris meets DACA recipients after ruling
• How Kamala Harris would provide citizenship to Dreamers

I can neither add reference to the sources, nor remove the statement regarding her position, as I do not have permissions to edit a protected page. Perhaps someone, with such permission, will choose to do so.

Trackerwannabe (talk) 18:45, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

"Undocumented" is the neutral term. "Illegal" puts a negative connotation on the individual. AP Stylebook has a good explainer. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

This has come up several times over the years. Most style guides seem to go with "undocumented immigrant" or something similar, but when it comes to picking one or the other those who prefer "illegal immigrant" point out that even those sources with style guides still sometimes use that formulation and, perhaps most saliently, it appears in many places in US law. IIRC consensus has stopped short of prohibiting "illegal immigrant" while acknowledging it's fallen out of favor and considered offensive by some groups. I think most people could get behind something like "people without a legal immigration status" or something as a compromise, but it's wordier. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 19:05, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Hence "undocumented", which indicates that their status isn't that of a legal citizen. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

While "undocumented" may be a less loaded term, I wouldn't consider it neutral. Even the AP Stylebook page you reference states: "Except in direct quotations, do not use the terms illegal alien, an illegal, illegals or undocumented." [Bold added for emphasis]

Trackerwannabe (talk) 19:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't really make sense to use "undocumented" in this instance when illegal immigration is clearly the accepted convention on Wikipedia PrecariousWorlds (talk) 05:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I would like to add that the article is much better as it is now, with the phrase omitted entirely and just mentioning the DREAM act. The wording of the sentence was confusing before PrecariousWorlds (talk) 05:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Are we taking a stance to make her look good in the eyes of progressives? Is that what Wikipedia stands for? Bohbye (talk) 06:05, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Would you prefer we make her look bad? HiLo48 (talk) 06:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

How about no stance. “undocumented” is a fact. They don't have the appropriate documents as required by law (so could use illegal instead). Helpingtoclarify (talk) 19:15, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

ISBN hyphenation

There are two ISBNs on this page in section Publications with incorrect hyphenation, according to Bowker and ISBN International. 978-1-984837-49-3 -> 978-1-9848-3749-3 and 978-1-984886-22-4 -> 978-1-9848-8622-4. Cam1170 (talk) 18:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 July 2024 (2)

The personal story of Kamala Harris does not include where she was born or anything else about her childhood. The article states that she is both African American and Asian American. OK. from what sources. For a important person running for the Presidency of the US, this information is crucial. Also, her husband is said to have been born into a Jewish family. Does this mean he doesn't consider himself Jewish? I understand that he practices Jewish traditions. So, why not state that he is Jewish? Are his children being brought up Jewish? Is Kamala part of that process as their stepmother? 74.71.242.17 (talk) 18:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

An edit request has to tell us what edit you wish made, not for general issues of content. Slatersteven (talk) 18:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Willie Brown relationship

i notice absolutely no mention was made that Willie brown was still married when dating Harris?

isn't this an important part 99.33.126.209 (talk) 22:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

That's not actually a fact about Harris. Far more relevant to Brown. HiLo48 (talk) 00:31, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

@HiLo48

how is it relative to only one side or a romantic relationship?

if it is relative to Willie brown, it must be relative to Harris. 99.33.126.209 (talk) 00:10, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by relative. The word I had used was relevant. Having sex with a married person isn't a crime. Nor is it a crime for a married person to have sex with someone else. It might be sort of immoral, under some social rules, but far more for Brown than Harris, although it's been pointe out below that he was separated from his wife at the time. HiLo48 (talk) 00:39, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not relevant to Harris that Brown chose to have a relationship with her while married(but separated). 331dot (talk) 00:12, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Why deny the woman any agency in romance? We should treat both equally. Maybe it would be easier to see why your logic is wrong if you use the same logic with the agents swapped:

"It's not relevant to Brown that Harris chose to have a relationship with him while he was married(but separated)" 98.27.48.13 (talk) 20:17, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Brown and his wife separated in 1981. Brown dated Kamala from 1994 to 1995. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:32, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

@Muboshgu

and divorced in?

that is why I said they dated while he was married. 99.33.126.209 (talk) 00:13, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Apparently, they never divorced. Hence, it's disingenuous to say "Kamala dated him while he was still married" or call it an "affair", since the relationship was already over for more than a decade. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:18, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

In California, divorce and legal separation are nearly identical -- except you can't remarry.[4] Of course you can date. But this is only relevant to Brown. Fortunately, we are an encyclopedia, not social media. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:02, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

@Objective3000

I'm afraid this sure sounds like extreme manipulation of common sense to prevent these facts from assisting in her bio entry. 99.33.126.209 (talk) 01:43, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@99.33.126.209 assisting should be appearing 99.33.126.209 (talk) 01:44, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

That she dated Willie Brown is relevant to her bio. His marital status at the time is not relevant to her bio. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:51, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 July 2024 (3)

Change "In the immediate aftermath, Harris fell in the polls following that debate" to "In the immediate aftermath of the debate, Harris fell in the polls", for readability. OffTheDeepEnd (talk) 22:44, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Left guide (talk) 23:33, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Presumptive Nominee

Now that the Associated Press's delegate tracker reports Harris has crossed the 1,976 threshold, the page should be updated to include her status as the presumptive Democratic nominee for President. CyberCatCA (talk) 01:49, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

There is a related discussion at Talk:2024 United States presidential election and so far the consensus there has been to wait. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:06, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

It's updated as of recently as 2024 United States presidential election now shows Harris as the presumptive nominee. Numerous RS concur. CyberCatCA (talk) 02:09, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Of course I would say something and it ends up changing in just 60 seconds. :p Yeah, I would recommend it now. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:14, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Bloomberg just reported her as the presumptive candidate based on the AP survey Harris Crosses Delegate Threshold in Sign Nomination Is Hers - Bloomberg. Raladic (talk) 02:09, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

She is NOT the presumptive nominee. She has enough non binding delegates which is born the same as what Biden had. Bohbye (talk) 03:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

• not* the same

Bohbye (talk) 03:41, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

It is similar though. Biden had a majority of unpledged delegates from primaries and Harris has a majority of unpledged delegates from endorsements. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Note also FiveThirtyEight's article "Is Kamala Harris the presumptive Democratic nominee? Not quite." StAnselm (talk) 14:15, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Kamala's Tamil name - கமலா தேவி ஹாரிஸ்

The first paragraph should start as follows, to properly acknowledge her first and middle name, which are Indian in origin, specifically using Tamil script (per her mother Shyamala Gopalan):

Kamala Devi Harris (கமலா தேவி ஹாரிஸ்; born October 20, 1964) is an American politician ... and so on ...

--ゴミバコ (talk) 21:43, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Her heritage is discussed in the article, is this done in other articles about US politicians? She doesn't write her name in Tamil. 331dot (talk) 21:50, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

331dot, here are some examples:

• Norm Mineta
• Mazie Hirono
• Bob Matsui
• Ted Lieu
• Joseph Cao
• Young Kim

They are all Asian Americans. Thanks!

--ゴミバコ (talk) 22:13, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Most were born outside of the USA too ... If Harris doesn't use Tamil to write her name, we certainly should not either EvergreenFir (talk) 22:21, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree with this. It's not clear all of the articles above should do this, either. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Especially Mineta, who was born in the US. 331dot (talk) 22:37, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Only briefly discussed in 2008. --Super Goku V (talk) 00:38, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

We would only do that if she normally used that spelling. Otherwise, why wouldn't we call her opponent Dòmhnall Drumpf, using the original Scots Gaelic and German spellings of his names? TFD (talk) 23:04, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I would go farther back. Both Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA evidence has now fixed Homo sapiens origins in Africa, ca 120K before present. Perhaps only click language should be allowed and readers of WP advised to view The Gods Must Be Crazy. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:21, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Speeches and speaking engagements

On May 30, 2024, Vice President Harris was the commencement speaker for the United States Air Force Academy's 2024 graduation in Colorado Springs, CO. 67.176.118.133 (talk) 02:24, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 July 2024

She is officially the democratic nominee for the 2024 presidential race. Please remove the word “presumptive”.2601:644:8F00:9F70:B198:5FAC:258E:89CB (talk) 10:03, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

She is not the official nominee because she has yet to be nominated. That is expected to happen at the upcoming Democratic convention through a vote. TFD (talk) 10:09, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

You guys don't let most of us edit, so please fix this

Last lede reference (number 8) has the nonsensical title "Harris Crosses Delegate Threshold in Sign Nomination Is Hers" instead of "Harris Has Enough Delegates to Clinch Nomination for President". 86.31.178.164 (talk) 12:18, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Done. Slatersteven (talk) 12:25, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Why the mention of her boyfriend when she got the job appoint? Feels designed to undermine her. 167.98.68.194 (talk) 16:05, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Because it's widely believed that she got the job because she was his girlfriend. Similar (in reverse) to the recent to-do over Fani Willis hiring her boyfriend, savvy? To omit the fact that Brown appointed Harris while they were dating would be, or at least be perceived to be, a cover-up. YoPienso (talk) 17:11, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Extremely common for folks in the political arena to get a leg up from family, friends, etc. Business too for that matter. Supposedly, Bobby Kennedy gave a mini-speech to his new staff on how he worked his way up to Attorney General; saying he worked as a bank clerk, served in the Navy, then law school, then the Senate ------- and then his brother was elected president. Nepotism has existed throughout recorded history. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Let the approved editors do their job. This is a space for campaigning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChonokisFigueroa (talk • contribs) 23:03, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation guide is chauvinistic

The article begins with a pronunciation guide for Vice President Harris's name, but only her first two names. With the recent widespread interest in her, it is entirely possible that there are readers who know the pronunciation to her first two names but not her last. Be more inclusive. 75.118.53.241 (talk) 17:43, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Why complain? Fix it! Bohbye (talk) 17:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

ECP is on the article due to vandalism. So they are asking someone else to fix it. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:07, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

MAybe, but this is the English Lagnauge WIki, we do not tend to have pronounciation guides for common names. Slatersteven (talk) 17:45, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

There has been a lot of discussion about the pronunciation of Kamala and I looked it up myself a few weeks ago. OTOH, supposedly Harris is the 21st most common surname in the US. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:53, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

But, the audio, which I cut out from her swearing-in for VP, in her own voice, has all three names, first, last, and middle. Problematic for English-speakers (in this English WP) are the stresses in KA-mala and not Ka-MA-la and the vowel sound in Devi, which is akin to Davey (as in Crockett). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:55, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Are there any stresses at all in her name? I've heard said stressless and with a stress on the first syllable. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:48, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Also see the section above. YoPienso (talk) 21:16, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Due to ECP OP can not fix it, and i don't know how to do it either. I don't think it is chauvinistic, but i do think her full name should have her full name pronunciation. Bohbye (talk) 21:22, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The name Harris is pronounced differently in various U.S. and other English dialects. It could be Hah-riss or Hair-iss. No one is going to pronounce it differently from how they normally do. TFD (talk) 02:40, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Border czar

Streams of accusations WP:NOTFORUM O3000, Ret. (talk)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
So all the mainstream propaganda channels are trying to whitewash Kamala and claiming its just a Republican misinformation that she was appointed border czar. Cheap lie. When the same propagandist at Axios is the author of the article of the above claim and the author of the article written in 2021 where AXIOS is using the very same term for Harris is just unbelievable. And these are the so called Reliable sources. Until recently it was a right wing lie and conspiracy theory that Biden was going to be replaced as the nominee. It was a right wing lie that he was in mental decline, and every outlet used the same word "sharp" to desvribe him. Its coordinated propaganda. And when Wikipedia is built around an idea that only these outlets are reliable and can be source of any info and everything and everyone else are right wing nutjobs and conspiracy theorists renders Wikipedia itself a part of this propaganda machine. Kamala was appointed as a border czar. Fact. Leftist mainstreem outlets used this term back then. Fact. That means they are lying atm claiming otherwise. Fact. That means they are part of a coordinated propaganda machine. Fact. 85.67.117.82 (talk) 18:46, 24 July 2024 (UTC) Kamala Harris Was Never Biden’s ‘Border Czar.’ Here’s What She Really Did - Time Magazine Axios today points out This article has been updated and clarified to note that Axios was among the news outlets that incorrectly labeled Harris a "border czar" in 2021. Thanks for playing. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:19, 24 July 2024 (UTC) Thx https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GTROHY-WMAAKXkE?format=jpg&name=large 85.67.117.82 (talk) 19:22, 24 July 2024 (UTC) AXIOS - Sorry the narrative of the propaganda machine is changed yesterday so we have to rewrite our article from 3 years ago. Thank you for proving me right and please edit the main article and remove that part when it is called a Republican misinfo that Kamala was "border czar". And start thinking about your reliable sources policy 85.67.117.82 (talk) 19:25, 24 July 2024 (UTC) A sign of a reliable source is they correct their mistakes. Like Axios just did. Harris was never named "border czar". – Muboshgu (talk) 19:27, 24 July 2024 (UTC) Rewriting history becoz the narrative just changed is not correcting their mistakes. She was appointed to deal with the border crisis by Biden? She was. Was that interpreted as being a "border czar" even in leftist mainstream media u wrongfully call reliable sources? Yes she was. Was it ok for 3 years and no one questioned that? Yes. Has the narrative changed overnight after she was appointed as a nominee to try to save her from this? Yes. Is there a coordinated effort on behalf of the leftist media dispite all the evidence on the internet? Yes there is. All the outlets are writing articles about it like it was push from above. The same happened with Biden being "sharp as a tack" a week ago, or calling it conspiracy theory that Biden going to be replaced by Kamala. Stop the lies. On wikipedia there is a bias and the outlets u consider reliable sources are cheap propaganda outlets factually. 85.67.117.82 (talk) 19:34, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Not the first ASIAN president.

It says she is the first ASIAN president. 97.103.134.243 (talk) 21:56, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

It says she would become the first Asian-American president, among other things. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:07, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

in the lead, it says she is the first Asian American vice president. Peaceray (talk) 22:13, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Border czar 2

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

In order to better collaborate and create a useful article based on verifiable data from reliable sources, I think it's important that we clear up the "border czar" issue.

First, Biden's initial announcement on March 24. 2021, was unclear. He said, "I’ve asked her, the VP, today — because she’s the most qualified person to do it — to lead our efforts with Mexico and the Northern Triangle and the countries that help — are going to need help in stemming the movement of so many folks, stemming the migration to our southern border." Obvious goal: stemming the [im]migration at the southern border.

Then Biden went on to talk about the root causes of the migration.

As he headed for a conclusion, Biden reiterated the need to "stop what's happening," i.e., the surge at the border. But in his final description of Harris's job, he said she had "agreed to lead our diplomatic effort and work with those nations to accept re- — the returnees, and enhance migration enforcement at their borders — at their borders." Nothing there about our southern border.

A garbled paragraph (beginning with "And I can think of nobody who--") follows, and then an appreciative paragraph, and finally he wraps it up with thanks and support.

Harris accepted Biden's charge, mentioning only diplomacy and root causes and nothing about enforcement at our border. Here's what she had produced 3 months later.

The venerable BBC reported on the day Biden made the announcement, "US President Joe Biden has put Vice-President Kamala Harris in charge of controlling migration at the southern border following a big influx of new arrivals," and wrote the line, "Announcing Ms Harris's appointment as his immigration czar. . ." [Emphasis mine.] The BBC said Biden believed Harris was the best person to "handle the complex political, logistical and diplomatic challenges this immigration issue presents." The article as a whole makes it sound like Biden put Harris in charge of every aspect of the border problem.

Also on Mar. 21, 2021, Politico reported, "Vice President Kamala Harris will be the White House’s point person on immigration issues at the nation’s southern border, President Joe Biden announced Wednesday, tasking her with stemming the rising tide of migrants, many of them unaccompanied children, arriving in the U.S." The rest of the article goes on to explain that Harris's role was with the Northern Triangle, but one can hardly blame readers for taking the first paragraph as a summary of the article. (Indeed, that's the function of journalism's "inverted pyramid.")

NBC News also got the pyramid wrong, with this lead: "President Joe Biden announced Wednesday that he has appointed Vice President Kamala Harris to lead efforts to stem migration across the U.S.-Mexico border, as the administration faces growing political pressure to address a surge in undocumented migrant children unaccompanied by parents." That report, too, explained Harris's role better in the body of the article.

My point: the RSs were saying exactly what we understood back then. (And, yes, opposing politicians and pundits quickly ran with the "czar" moniker.) But here's an NBC News report many of us missed: "In the 2 1/2 weeks since President Joe Biden announced he was tasking Vice President Kamala Harris with leading diplomatic efforts to stem the flow of migrants at the Southern border, the White House has found itself having to clarify the shape of her role on a near-daily basis." This article is key to our discussion here; I recommend reading the whole thing. Here's one more excerpt: "White House press secretary Jen Psaki has fielded frequent questions on whether Harris' role includes addressing the current situation on the southern border, while aides to the vice president have quickly shot down suggestions that Harris is focused on anything other than tackling the root causes of migration in Mexico and the "Northern Triangle" countries of Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras."

This week, when corrections were made to reports from 2021, it seemed Orwellian, didn't it? Winston Smith was rolling up his sleeves to control the past, wasn't he? But on April 10, 2021, NBC News had clarified Harris's role in a timely fashion.

Bottom line: As Wikipedia editors, we make more progress when we try to understand the facts, the perceptions, and the misperceptions brought to us. I think we can improve the Immigration section of the BLP. It's misleading to target Republicans as spreaders of disinformation when the BBC, NBC, Politico, and others got it wrong. (I should note the AP pretty much got it right.) YoPienso (talk) 00:12, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

All of this is WP:SYNTH. RS do not call her a "border czar", and the few that did have issued corrections. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:38, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

There is zero synth here.

The BBC called her an immigration czar and has not corrected or updated that story.

Politico and NBC published erroneous or misleading stories; Politico hasn't corrected or updated, either, but NBC set it straight a month later in another article. (Good on NBC!)

Just today Axios updated its 3-yr-old story.

All RSs make the occasional mistake.

People who thought Biden had made Ms. Harris his "border czar" aren't necessarily stupid or evil or ill-informed. We make more progress with less debate when we assume good faith. YoPienso (talk) 02:28, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Here's news I was unaware of: Six House Dems vote with GOP to condemn Kamala Harris for 'border czar' role. Not sure how or if this affects our discussion or the BLP. YoPienso (talk) 17:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't affect anything. Biden did not make her his "border czar". The fact that six of the 212 Dems joined such a vote is not relevant. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:14, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The claim isnt that Biden called her "border czar", it's that *everyone did* based on the responsibilities he assigned. There's no offical position of "czar" and no one is suggesting otherwise. The entire debate here is a misinformation campaign driven by the DNC to distance Harris from her responsibilities with the border crisis.

https://x.com/burackbobby_/status/1816523387948400854/photo/1 24.57.55.50 (talk) 01:09, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Not close to a reliable source. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:44, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't, other than to lead me to point you to WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS so that we can stick with better sources. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:17, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

This will probably be more relevant at Kamala Harris 2024 presidential campaign, which I haven't participated in so far. Her record regarding immigration policy will be an ongoing campaign issue.

It's not only Fox that is reporting this, of course: ABC, the AP, Politico, Spectrum News, etc. YoPienso (talk) 20:29, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Well I looked at each of these sources and the Fox source. Only Fox added: House Homeland Security Committee Chairman Mark Green, R-Tenn., similarly opened debate with, "We've been told that Vice President Harris' job was to find the root causes of the crisis. Turns out to do so she could have just looked in the mirror." Which is to say that she was the root cause of this worldwide immigration problem; when just a week ago it was Biden who as the root cause of this worldwide problem. The community decided not to use Fox for politics for a reason. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:47, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The non-Fox sources are valid, but they don't change the fact that this vote is a publicity stunt meant to smear their political opponent, so UNDUE. I don't think we'll be hearing about the "Biden crime family" any longer. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:51, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The lie that she *wasnt* called "border czar" is UnDue because THAT lie is being orchestrated directly by the DNC. https://x.com/burackbobby_/status/1816523387948400854/photo/1

SO, in one case you have a ACTAUL House Resolution -- which you anoint yourself worthy to blithely dismiss -- and in the other, you have a documented and revealed misnformation campaign managed by the DNC.

And you carry water for the DNC talking points. 24.57.55.50 (talk) 01:07, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Again, not close to a reliable source. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:45, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Like it or not, the HOUSE of Representatives -- which has more authority on appropriate labels than the press -- called her "border czar" - it's a first party citation, not merely media reports;

House passes bipartisan resolution strongly condemning 'border czar' Kamala Harris (nypost.com)

https://nypost.com/2024/07/25/us-news/house-passes-bipartisan-resolution-strongly-condemning-border-czar-kamala-harris/

H.Res.1371 - 118th Congress (2023-2024): Strongly condemning the Biden Administration and its Border Czar, Kamala Harris's, failure to secure the United States border. | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/1371

Second, here's a second fact-check article that speaks to the Orwellian propaganda now swirling here; trying to deny that the term was used (as if it matters, being simply pedantic and generic label, not an official title at all).

FACT CHECK: Harris was Biden’s second 'border czar,' despite recent media claims | News | kten.com

https://www.kten.com/news/fact-check-harris-was-biden-s-second-border-czar-despite-recent-media-claims/article_0ca9885a-48d1-53d5-b9a7-ba3a865e09e1.html

It's a FACT that her responsibility gave her the moniker "border czar". The memory-hole work here on wikipedia to carry water for this lie only further cements wikipedia's decline. 24.57.55.50 (talk) 00:56, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

> People who thought Biden had made Ms. Harris his "border czar" aren't necessarily stupid or evil or ill-informed.

Because that was how it was _widely_ and unanimously reported at the time she was given border responsibilities. It's a fact. That was how it was reportd. Widely. An argument that "no such position exists" isnt at issue here; a term "czar" has been widely used for decades in american politics and its never been questioned. It's only NOW being questioned because this **misdirection is printed, paid-for, managed misinformation by the Democratic Party. And wikipedia is carrying water for the DNC.**

See; Democrat Lawmakers Receive Talking Points On How To Talk About Kamala Harris | OutKick

https://www.outkick.com/analysis/democrat-lawmakers-receive-talking-points-how-talk-about-kamala-harris-role-border

Here's a photo of the talking points that are DRIVING this entire wikipedia debate;

(8) Bobby Burack on X: "Wow. A Democrat lawmaker confirmed to FOX that Dems have received a piece of paper with talking points/lies about how to discuss Kamala Harris' role at the Southern border. They are already using the exact lines. https://x.com/burackbobby_/status/1816523387948400854/photo/1 24.57.55.50 (talk) 01:04, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

What you're missing here, IP user 24.57.55.50, is:

1. There's no way to know if the list posted on X is legitimate, and
2. The House of Representatives is a political body, sharply divided right now into Democrats and Republicans. It wasn't the House, but the Republicans, specifically Elise Stefanik, who purposefully used loaded language to attack the Democratic candidate for president. Only 6 of 212 Democrats voted "Yea," while every Republican who voted (214 our of 220, with 6 not voting) voted "Yea." This is political partisanship and by no means reflects the intents of Joe Biden, who appointed Harris to work on border policies, specifically the reasons so many people want to flee Central America and find haven in the US.
3. At Wikipedia, while we acknowledge nicknames erroneously or hostilely applied, we don't use them in our own voice.

YoPienso (talk) 12:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm a bit out of practice posting at a wiki as I've not been active in years. I am concerned though with the rewriting of history when it comes to the "Border Czar" moniker. The casual term Border Czar was used in reference to Vice President Kamala Harris. Here's a link from one of America's oldest newspapers headline "Six Dems join Republicans to condem ‘border czar’ Kamala Harris for botching border crisis" Link: The term may be a casual one, much like the term First Man or First Lady, and if we plan to remove a recorded usage of the term Border Czar perhaps we should start removing the casual titles given to presidential spouses. My biggest concern is Wikipedia rewriting history to suit their political persuasions. Reporters of history should always try to record history in an unbiased factual way. Think long and hard about the actions you've taken in rewriting history. I will finally add Congress acknowledged the Border Czar term.MDaisy (talk) 14:15, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Congress did not "acknowledge" the Border Czar term. The Republicans falsely claimed that was her appointment, an appointment that never existed. It is they attempting to rewrite history. Please read the several discussions here. Also, Wikipedia has no political persuasion. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:23, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Its a neologism, First lady is well established. Slatersteven (talk) 14:24, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, first used in 1838. We even have an article on it First lady. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:30, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. Reliable sources make the facts, according to the standards of Wikipedia. Reliable sources report this, and it doesn't matter if you don't like it. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 22:17, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll ask again. What reliable source states that she was appointed to this position without later retracting it? What source shows an announcement of this assignment? O3000, Ret. (talk) 23:19, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

@MDaisy

Agree.

Just about every Wikipedia article makes use of media quotations and media references.

so, at this point, if Wikipedia has chosen to remove the Harris "border czar" link, they are obviously playing politics with recording facts.

I will remind you that up until a week ago, no one had an issue with this issue. It was not until the Republicans began campaigning with the issue that Wikipedia chose to sanitize Harris' entry.

I have attempted to warn off these issues in the past and have had my talking pages deleted for the effort. 99.33.126.209 (talk) 19:29, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Removed offending comments. Agreed should have been a bit more civil. Original sources trump secondary sources. An official government document, which I linked to as a reference, is an original source and a government document.

Accurate information is what's needed or readers will doubt your research. Wikipedia allegedly is an unbiased source that understands research.

I'm a retired print journalist who believes in honest research. I also have a degree in English (didn't study journalism but fell into the job by accident) and a minor in history. I LOVE history and respect how it will hopefully give accurate information to the ones who are studying it later.

Lest think I am biased towards one particular political party over another I am not in this instance as I believe in honest, accurate writing. MDaisy (talk) 20:25, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if it is gross incompetence or lack of education. Please be civil WP:CIV. Original sources trump secondary sources. Original sources do not trump secondary sources on Wikipedia WP:PSTS. We use reliable secondary sources. A bill by the Legislative Branch cannot establish a czar in the Executive Branch. There is nothing "honest" about political documents in general. You will find that bills often purposely make misstatements for political reasons. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:35, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

A government document is an unbiased, reliable, official source. It clearly states action taken by our legislators. That is accurate and unbiased. I have never mentioned my politics in this discussion. I might be a Biden-Harris supporter but you do not know that as I have remained objective. I do appreciate unbiased writing though. Thank you! MDaisy (talk) 20:53, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

We can state based on the text of the resolution that House Republicans called her a "border czar". But we can't use the resolution to call her a "border czar". Does that make sense? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

This is a bill that has not and can not pass the legislature as the Senate will not vote on it. It is a political statement with no expectation of passage. There is no "action" that will occur. Unfortunately, both parties engage in this nonsense. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:00, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Congress did acknowledge the term "Border Czar". H.Res.1371 The reso did include the term and it has been used by various news sources for a long while. The term is correct as she did serve as the "Border Czar." MDaisy (talk) 15:46, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

They did not acknowledge it. They made it up. The RS that reported it withdrew their mistakes. If you believe in primary sources, show the one where Biden appointed her "Border Czar". There isn't one. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

One last thing this is an official source stating Congress passed the bill that clearly stated:

Strongly condemning the Biden Administration and its Border Czar, Kamala Harris’s, failure to secure the United States border. Vote Type: Yea-And-Nay Status: Passed Link:

Bill: Roll Call 400 | Bill Number: H. Res. 1371

This is official documentation and an original source. In research writing, which I assume Wikipedia is striving to reach, the source clearly states Harris was called a Border Czar. The term should be used in the WP article. This is called objective, unbiased research. In college I majored in history and english. I'm a retired print journalist who covered governmental affairs. I also believe in factual reporting. MDaisy (talk) 19:13, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

That's a primary source from House Republicans, who are quite unreliable for their opinions on Harris. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:16, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Do you not understand research? Primary sources (which I posted) trump secondary sources. A government reso was passed by Congress. This is an official government document and original research. Do I need to teach a class on research? Did anyone here suffer through writing a research paper? MDaisy (talk) 20:46, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

You should be more WP:CIVIL considering that you are wrong. Wikipedia prefers secondary sources over primary sources. WP:RSPRIMARY: Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources, i.e., a document or recording that relates to or discusses information originally presented elsewhere. Also, that's a House resolution, that is not going to be taken up by the Senate. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:50, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Is it wrong to want accurate writing? I was taught the MLA Stylebook, Strunk and White and the Little Brown Handbook. I also used the AP Stylebook professionally. All taught writing and what I've posted is accurate in all college level or professional writing. I will see if I can find an admin to review the article, if needed. Thanks!MDaisy (talk) 21:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It is not wrong to want accuracy, but calling Harris a "border czar" because House Republicans say she is isn't accurate. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:30, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Here some links from varying media sources calling Harris a border Czar:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/fact-check-harris-was-biden-s-second-border-czar-despite-recent-media-claims/ar-BB1qC2XX

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56516332

https://www.axios.com/2021/04/14/harris-immigration-visit-mexico-guatemala

And I end my message with this comment by stating Congress's reso said Border Czar. Both Republicans and Democrats voted to approve the reso. I have included references in my earlier posts. While the Czar was not an official title it was used to describe Harris' role when directed by President Biden to resolve the southern border crisis. ~~~ MDaisy (talk) 23:24, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It was not used by the Executive Branch, which is all that counts, and did not include protection of the border, which is what the Republicans falsely claim. And why do you keep bringing up the partisan political resolution? There were only 6 of 212 Dems to vote for it. Saying Both Republicans and Democrats voted to approve the reso is highly misleading. You don't even know if they just wanted to vote for other parts and couldn't do anything about that language as it was a Republican written bill. Such resolutions have no meaning in law. And we use secondary sources. O3000, Ret. (talk) 23:58, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It's an official government doc and historically accurate unless you wish to re-write history. Congress called it that and that's all you need. Yes, you can use secondary unbiased sources. Has anyone posted secondary source calling Harris a border czar?

I have reported this to the admin board. Hopefully, a neutral, objective admin will review this. MDaisy (talk) 01:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

It is the House Republicans who are rewriting history by calling her a "border czar" when POTUS never did. It's an official document, that resolution, but that doesn't mean anything. It's a WP:PRIMARY document that is contextualized by WP:SECONDARY sources. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:18, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I have reported this to the admin board. And they explained to you that you are wrong and closed the filing. Why do you keep repeating this even after your report was rejected? Congress called it that and that's all you need. That's completely false. Congress has no power to do this. And Congress did not pass the bill anyhow. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:41, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Congress is an official government agency and they create actual legislation. That's newsworthy and worth reporting. I had not checked the admin board so I didn't know...thought being civil was important...

While doing dishes I did come up with a diplomatic solution. Not saying you have to write exactly what I'm writing here but it could be something like this. Don't know if the article is locked, or not, so I'll post it here for review.

In an alleged political move the United States Congress passed H.Res 1376 on July 25, 2024, condemning alleged Border Czar Kamala Harris' failure to secure the border. The vote for the resolution was passed by 214 Republicans and 6 Democrats. 6 Republicans and 10 Democrats did not vote on the resolution.

That's a neutral statement that is historically factual. MDaisy (talk) 02:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Congress is an official government agency and they create actual legislation. Yes, but they passed a non-binding resolution, not legislation, and only through one house. Harris' failure to secure the border is not NPOV or sensical since she was not put in charge of the border. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:07, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

You can write alleged Border Czar. Missed that one and it would work. Yes, she was appointed to diplomatically work to reduce illegal immigration. I thought wikis were to promote collaboration...MDaisy (talk) 02:17, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

More npov verbiage

Here is the language from the page on Harris's policies, which is more npov regarding "sanctuary cities" than what is here now.

In 2006, as San Francisco's district attorney, Harris expressed support for the city's sanctuary city policy of not inquiring about immigration status in the process of a criminal investigation, saying it allowed people to come forward as witnesses to crimes when they might not have otherwise. She argued it is important that immigrants be able to talk with law enforcement without fear. Seananony (talk) 00:42, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

fAILED VERIFCATI0ON. Slatersteven (talk) 09:29, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Slatersteven Are you suggesting the paragraph be deleted? Seananony (talk) 03:45, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

< no as this is on her page, Im am saying do not add it here without better sourcing. Slatersteven (talk) 12:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

@Slatersteven Maybe the links to sources didn't work in my post. They seemed like good sources for the proposed language. Not so good for the existing. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/us/12sanctuary.html

https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/california-politics/2010/10/steve-cooleykamala-harris-debate-the-arizona-immigration-law.htm Seananony (talk) 23:46, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

@Slatersteven

Here is the existing language:

Harris has expressed support for San Francisco's sanctuary city policy of not inquiring about immigration status in the process of a criminal investigation.[88] Seananony (talk) 23:51, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Request edit: White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention

Please make a subsection under 7.2 Tenure for her role overseeing the White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention. Photos of Japan (talk) 00:50, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention

Main article: White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention

The White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention is an office of the White House created during the Biden-Harris administration and tasked with carrying out the president's executive orders on gun violence prevention. Since its creation Kamala Harris has acted as its supervisor.

On December 13, 2023, Harris announced the Office's "Safer States Initiative." The initiative encouraged state-level policy changes to create state-level gun violence prevention offices and programs. It also announced two new executive actions from the Justice Department providing model safe storage legislation and a model for reporting lost or stolen firearms for state legislators.

Update Hastings School of Law

Kamala Harris graduated from the school then known as Hastings School of Law. But the school has since changed its name to University of California College of the Law, San Francisco, largely because its former namesake was accused of genocide. Should we refer to the school by its name at the time she attended it or update the article to reflect the current name of the school? David s graff (talk) 03:38, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Already says that. Bohbye (talk) 01:56, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 July 2024

The word African-American needs to be changed to Jamaican-American. Her father is from Jamaica, not Africa. 2601:B017:4AE:B500:B10:394F:9981:21D0 (talk) 10:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

See the FAQ at the top of he page. HiLo48 (talk) 10:13, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

The birth name

@Strugglehouse: For four years, Kamala Harris's middle name on this (her Wikipedia) page has been Devi in the lead, the infobox, and the early years section. She was indeed given a different middle name at birth, but it was changed two weeks later, when she was very decidedly still a helpless infant not much different physiologically than she was at birth. That middle name is mentioned in the infox in a footnote, but no more. More pertinently, for Wikipedia, due weight considerations do not allow us to include this information more prominently as no tertiary sources do. Please read about the role of tertiary sources in determining due weight at:WP:TERTIARY. That this is the biography of a living person which has seen its share of nationalistic, subnationalistic, ethnic, or xenophobic bickering, cautions us further to tread carefully. Having edited this page for four years, I am confident that this is the consensus version here of how her name should be written. For all these reasons, I have removed what is only technically her birth name from any form of mention what would be considered undue. If you do not agree, you are welcome to reply here and attempt to reach a new consensus. But that, I should warn you, takes time. But please do not engage in WP:Edit warring. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:25, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler Birth name is what's written on your birth certificate. Her birth name is Kamala Iyer Harris, and this is what should be displayed as her birth name.

I believe it should be included how I put it in the article (i.e. The lead should read: "Kamala Devi Harris ([...] born Kamala Iyer Harris; October 20, 1964) is an American politician [...]", and the name should be in the birth_name section of the infobox, and the Early life and education section).

However, as a compromise, the lead could be left alone, and only the infobox and Early life and education section changed. Strugglehouse (talk) 11:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I think the note suffices. If Harris requested a copy of her birth certificate, it would say her middle name is Devi, not Iyer. YoPienso (talk) 12:52, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Border Czar 3

This sentance; "Axios in 2021 inaccurately described Harris as a "border czar," suggesting she would be responsible for security along the U.S.-Mexico border; Axios corrected the story in July 2024, though Republicans continued to use the moniker.[283][284]"

Is completely false. Everyone -- hundreds of examples, including the House of Representatives in 2023 and 2024 used the term "Border Czar" as title for Harri's responsibilities.

The only reason the above sentence is exists is to cover and carry water for the partisan misinformation. That sentence is a direct embodiment of the DNC-directed misinformation issued to Democrats. See;

https://x.com/Banned_Bill/status/1816581620704641271

The media is parroting the DNC talking points. Partisan editors cite the compliant media (which is why merely axios is mentioned, because Axios demonstrated the greatest degree of supplication.)

The above sentence should be removed. A new section created to document this entire affair. Instead, the cited sentance presents the most false and most generous representation to benefit the partisans and comply with the orwellian misinformation demanded by the Democratic Party. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.55.50 (talk) 11:17, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Do you really believe the purported DNC talking points posted on X is a legitimate DNC list? I don't. You would have to have reliable sources supporting it. YoPienso (talk) 11:51, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

The MSM has been repeating -- almost in complete sync -- those exact talking points. Peter Doucy of Fox News asked Karine Jean-Pierre asked her about that very leaked talking point list.

Do you _not_ believe that the talking points was created by the DNC? What other explanation would you have for the clear coordination on those same points? Out of no where, dozens of stories in the MSM trying to pretend she wasnt called "Border Czar". 24.57.55.50 (talk) 21:10, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Please point to the announcement by the Executive Branch appointing her with this title. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:14, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Unconstructive comments YoPienso (talk) 14:57, 26 July 2024 (UTC))
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
HOUse Republicans do not get to appoint cabinet positions. Slatersteven (talk) 11:58, 26 July 2024 (UTC) Cabinet positions? Harris was VP. YoPienso (talk) 12:50, 26 July 2024 (UTC) The legislative branch doesn't get to appoint any task to anyone in the executive branch. (Although there was an attempt a few years back to appoint a different president.) O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC) Which was my point, the house does not have the authority to declare any one an anything Czar. Slatersteven (talk) 14:07, 26 July 2024 (UTC) Good grief. You two aren't making any sense. O3000, the House, in fact, elects (not appoints) the President if no candidate receives enough electoral college votes, and the Senate elects the VP. Slatersteven, why don't you just say "Whoops"? Hatting all this as unconstructive. YoPienso (talk) 14:57, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

This edit request is merely a repeat of 3-year-old Republican propaganda memes, described as such in reliable news media and discredited from the moment they were created in 2021.

• Contemporaneous news articles from 2021 emphasize that Harris was tasked by Biden with addressing the causes of migration from the Northern Triangle. The 2021 reference in this Wikipedia page, from NBC News, is congruent with that. Here is another from WaPo on the day on the same event, with a similar description of Harris's remit.
• The Republican efforts to use the word "czar" and tar Harris with border enforcement failures go back to the original appointment time in 2021. Here are two WaPo articles published within a few weeks of the original appointment. They explain that Republicans will try to pin border enforcement failures on Harris regardless of that wasn't her charge. One article describes Republicans repeatedly bleating that word "czar" which the administration kept rejecting.

Parenthetically: the supposed Democratic talking points are, I believe, correct and factual. They reinforce what the reliable sources tell us, going back as far as the original reporting in 2021. I can't speak for whether it is indeed a list published by somebody, but I don't see that they contradict this Wikipedia page. It is pragmatically weird to wave a list of facts which agree with the news reporting and claim this proves the reliable sources are wrong.

But to the topic at hand: the edit request is merely a repeat of three year old long-discredited GOP memes. -- M.boli (talk) 19:07, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

There are 38,000 Google News references calling Harris "border czar" since she was appointed by Biden to these border responsibilities.

All this nonsense over "border czar" or otherwise is moot. She was tasked with the border file -- call her czar or otherwise is immaterial. The ONLY purpose to distance from this term is to serve to distance Harris from the border crisis under Biden (which she was a party-to, czar or not.)

She was given the responsibility to lead the effort, and she failed. Her support of an open border is clear and obvious. And, the 'czar' term was used widely. Denying it is Orwellian newspeak, driven by the DNC issued talking points and the usual gatekeepers are manipulating wikipedia to support it. 24.57.55.50 (talk) 21:16, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

No, she was not. She was not responsible for border security. That was and is Homeland Security. Her role was in dealing with the source countries, the root of the problem. To that end, she fostered foreign investment to increase jobs to improve the problem countries. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:22, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I have removed the word "inaccurately" as poorly sourced and unnecessary. The sentence makes it clear that Axios has retracted the designation. StAnselm (talk) 21:15, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Why is ONLY Axios mentioned? Every single MSM outlout, for years -- thousands of times -- have used the term.

That the *ONLY* reference here is that *Axios* alone decided to rewrite history isnt the whole story. It's only being made the 'whole story' here because they retracted it.

What about the hundreds of other references that *havent* been retracted? What about the fact that she was called "border czar" by passed House resolution in 2023 and 2024? Doesnt that primary source rise above a single mention of 'axios' here?

This is obviously DNC-directed misinformation being pushed onto wikipedia. 24.57.55.50 (talk) 21:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I have restored the word "inaccurately" [5] that StAnselm removed as "poorly sourced and unnecessary" [6]. The content is directly from Axios's correction, which states, "Axios was among the news outlets that incorrectly labeled Harris a 'border czar' in 2021" [7]. Without the use of a modifier in the sentence of our article, it no longer makes sense because there is nothing to suggest why Axios issued the correction. The sentence currently in the article is "Axios in 2021 inaccurately described Harris as a "border czar," suggesting she would be responsible for security along the U.S.-Mexico border; Axios corrected the story in July 2024, though Republicans continued to use the moniker." – notwally (talk) 21:48, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It's poorly sourced because we don't have an independent source saying it's inaccurate. StAnselm (talk) 21:53, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes we do. We have WaPo reporting from a few weeks after Harris received the remit in March, 2021. Reporting which says Republicans made up using the word "czar" for their own political purposes, but the principals involved said it was clearly not correct. -- M.boli (talk) 22:00, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I can't read the WaPo articles because they're behind a paywall. What are their exact words wrt to border czars? StAnselm (talk) 22:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Sullivan/Alamany on 24 March 2021 does not mention the word "czar."

Sullivan/Wootson on 3 April 2021 has one usage, where Texas Governor Greg Abbott sends a letter that says she is the border czar ("Now that President Biden has named you Border Czar in charge of the administration's response, I want to express to you the threats and challenges caused by this administration’s open border policies"). LizardJr8 (talk) 23:49, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

(ec) How about "Axios described Harris as a "border czar" in 2021, suggesting she would be responsible for security along the U.S.-Mexico border, but withdrew the designation in July 2024..." StAnselm (talk) 22:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Or, perhaps following the WaPo articles cited above, something along the lines of "Harris was widely described in 2021 as a border czar, a designation which the administration rejected. Some news outlets, such as Axios, retracted the designation in July 2024, but Republicans continued to use it." StAnselm (talk) 22:10, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

StAnselm, that's not what happened, and it looks like you are merely attempting to push a POV by ignoring the actual source and putting a "disputed" tag on a term directly supported by the cited source [8]. Axios didn't "withdraw the designation". They issued a correction notice that their use of the term was "incorrect", along with an updated article that explicitly notes that she was never the "border czar" (e.g., "border czar" title — which she never actually had" [9]). You can't attempt to use a source for the term while ignoring their correction. – notwally (talk) 22:14, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Nobody is saying she actually had the title - it was always, as the article you link to states, an "unofficial monicker". The issue is whether it was "inaccurate" or "incorrect" and it is this which is disputed (not just here, but in the media). StAnselm (talk) 23:28, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Actually a large number of editors here are falsely claiming this as well as a large number of right-wing media that continue this claim and the Republicans in the House. Problem is that what you call an "unofficial monicker" includes the false claim that she was in charge of the border, which is false. O3000, Ret. (talk) 23:36, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It depends on what you mean by "in charge of the border". Do you agree that she was "tasked with curbing the flow of migrants across the U.S.-Mexico border"? StAnselm (talk) 23:49, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

She was tasked with trying to solve the root causes in the failed countries, and in fact spurred foreign investment in those countries. In no way was she charged with border security as claimed by Republicans. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:24, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, although I don't know how many Republicans have made that claim about border security. I don't think it's necessarily implied by the term "border czar". StAnselm (talk) 00:52, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@StAnselm: You reverted my edit. It looks like you took issue with this text:

The role did not include power over the US-Mexico border, although critics began calling her the "border czar", a title then mistakenly repeated by some news organizations at the time, despite never holding such a role

because your edit summary said:

The claim that the label originated with the critics is quite blatantly made up, and it not in any of the sources provided

Politifact: In the meantime, Republicans have revived a title they gave her in 2021: "border czar."

Regardless, that's easily fixed by 'although critics and some news organizations mistakenly called her "border czar" at the time' or something. I fail to see how the version you restored, which inexplicably puts it all on Axios, is an improvement. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 00:20, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the StAnselm's revert was not constructive. And if there were any minor probems, fixing them is the correct action, not reverting to less accurate text. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:26, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

(ec)I agree about Axios, but I think we should work out the wording here first. Yes, I saw the phrase "a title they gave her", and it's putting a lot of weight on that phrase to say that the critics/Republicans started using the phrase first - he could just mean they called her that. (Of course, it would be really interesting to actually find out whether it was the critics or the news outlets who first used the phrase!) Anyway, my other point above is that the informal POV nature of the phrase makes it hard to call it "mistaken" or "inaccurate". StAnselm (talk) 00:29, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that the opposition has declared that she was in charge of border security. That is, simply speaking, a lie. Now we all know that politicians never lie. But we should not be part of spreading a lie if by some extremely odd circumstance, a politician (or 200) did tell one. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:38, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 July 2024 (2)

Why does this not list her appointment to “BORDER CZAR” by Joe Biden? It was part of the article before?! I trust Wikipedia to be unbiased and non-political, so this needs to be added back in! Thank you! 2603:8080:61F0:6C50:2963:D298:EAB3:EBCC (talk) 13:45, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

•  Not done: Because Joe Biden did not appoint her as "border czar". We need an FAQ on this. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:48, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

IP user, we do mention the term "border czar," in quotes. That's appropriate. If I find time I'm going to edit that part, though, because it makes it seem like only Axios was confused. No need to mention Axios specifically, but we do need to include the fact that multiple RSs--not only right-wing media or Republicans--used the term. YoPienso (talk) 15:02, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Error in these articles. Kamala Harris is NOT African American. She is Jamaican. 2603:6081:5A00:CEC:1001:205C:FDE:A5 (talk) 15:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Not according to her birth certificate. Slatersteven (talk) 15:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean? Her birth certificate says her father was Jamaican. YoPienso (talk) 15:13, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

She is not her father. Slatersteven (talk) 15:14, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

So, according to her birth certificate, what is she? Or what is she not? I have no idea what your comment "Not according to her birth certificate" means. YoPienso (talk) 15:29, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Well as it says she was born in Oakland, California, USA, she is Amerian (by birth). Slatersteven (talk) 15:37, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

The question wasn't if she's American, but if she's African-American. YoPienso (talk) 17:43, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

No, the question was is she Jamaican. Slatersteven (talk) 09:32, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

IP user, Please see Q1: Why does Wikipedia say that Kamala Harris is African American/Asian American/South Asian American? in the FAQs in the yellow box at the top of this page. YoPienso (talk) 15:04, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Now that I've read that explanation at the top, I find it faulty. Unclear. I can't follow the logic. We don't necessarily go by what people call themselves. (Consider Rachel Dolezal, for example.) What makes sense to me is that she is an American of partial African descent, thus making her partly African-American. YoPienso (talk) 15:27, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

We don't, we go by what the law says she is. Slatersteven (talk) 15:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Please show me the law that says what Harris is.

Wrt my comment about not necessarily going by what people call themselves, please read the concluding paragraph of the meandering explanation at the top. Here, I'll paste it in for you:

Also of note is the difference between race and ethnicity. Race is grouping based on society's view. Ethnicity is grouping based on how people see themselves in common with others. Ms. Harris's race is unimportant. Her ethnicity is paramount. Using this criteria, Ms. Harris is clearly African-American and South Asian-American. YoPienso (talk) 16:04, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

14th Amendement "Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.... " Slatersteven (talk)

?!?!? There's no birther issue here. Nobody's saying she's not an American. The discussion was if she's African-American or not. Are you suggesting we should drop African-American and South Asian-Americn descriptors and simply call her an American? YoPienso (talk) 17:43, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

"Error in these articles. Kamala Harris is NOT African American. She is Jamaican.", that was the question asked, the answer was no she is not, she is an American. Slatersteven (talk) 17:47, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

A vast number of African-Americans have some non-African ancestry. This is due to the fact that masters slept with slaves and enslaved and/or sold their progeny. It was not called rape because slaves were considered property with no rights. Jamaica was filled with slaves and is now around 76% Black as a result. This is also likely where the rumor her great-great-great-grandfather was a slave holder originated. Fortunately, we don't have to determine this ourselves. We just go by RS. But an explanation in the FAQ is helpful for the constant claims she isn't. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:44, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe we need an FAQ entry for the racial history of the Americas, including the one drop rule, miscegenation, Middle passage, Triangular trade, and the rest of it.

This the Kamala Harris page. Regardless of her phylogenetic tree, she was shaped as she as repeatedly said, by the African-American community in Berkeley and Oakland. Please read the third paragraph of the Early years section. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

"Border Czar" discussion at Talk:List of U.S. executive branch czars

Editors here may be interested in weighing in at Should Kamala Harris be listed as a "border czar" on the List of U.S. executive branch czars page. GordonGlottal (talk) 18:53, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Why would we add that she was appointed "border czar" when she wasn't? O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:13, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

According to the passed House Resolutions, she *is*. 24.57.55.50 (talk) 21:21, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

And according to our reliable sources, she isn't: In 2021, Biden tapped Harris to head up a Central American initiative called the “Roots Causes Strategy,” an effort to “address the root causes of migration” from “from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras.” It seeks to deter migration from those countries by, among other things, providing funds for natural disasters, fighting corruption, and creating partnerships with the private sector and international organizations. (Emphasis mine) --Super Goku V (talk) 08:06, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 July 2024 (3)

Change "Harris has said life imprisonment without parole is a better and more cost-effective punishment than the death penalty,[94]" to "Harris has said life imprisonment without parole for octogenarians is a better and more cost-effective punishment than the death penalty,[94]"

The current text makes it sound like the source material was discussing people of all ages on death row when in fact it specifies elderly people. 2600:1700:83A2:8400:D999:549D:CEF:489C (talk) 18:57, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I removed that whole paragraph, because it didn't mesh well with the text in the reference. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:49, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

10 and 11 references issue

They don't mention shr supported cannabis legalization and dream act. Also wasn't she known for strict prosecution of cannabis related crimes? 50.93.223.205 (talk) 19:14, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Soeruce? Slatersteven (talk) 09:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Userboxes

A few userbox templates are available at Wikipedia:Userboxes/Politics by country/United States/Politicians#Kamala Harris. Yours aye,  Buaidh  talk e-mail 23:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Nationality

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nationality, she is not African American. She is Jamaican American and Asian Indian American 184.98.43.135 (talk) 02:23, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

See Talk:Kamala Harris/FAQ. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 02:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

贺锦丽

The fact that Kamala has a Chinese name that is used in Chinese language communication is quite unique and should be mentioned. https://radii.co/article/kamala-harris-chinese-name John Vandenberg ^(chat) 03:28, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

What's Chinese about it? HiLo48 (talk) 03:52, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I found This article which seems to verify this. It was published by the South China Morning Post, which Wikipedia considers generally reliable. This NYT article may say something about it, but I don't have access. I think we need a reliable source that says something more specific than "the early 2000s" for the year she adopted the name. – Anne drew 04:03, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

No it does not, it says her name is translated into Chinese as X, not that it is a Chinese name. In fact "Her given name “Kamala Devi” means “the goddess Kamala” – one of the many names of the Hindu goddess of wealth, Lakshmi. And “Kamala” itself means “she of the lotus” in Sanskrit." make it pretty clear, its an Indian name. Slatersteven (talk) 09:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

See https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/china-watcher/what-kamala-would-mean-for-china/ (Politico) and https://sfstandard.com/2023/05/10/becoming-chinese-picking-the-right-name-on-san-francisco-ballots-is-serious-politics/ (The San Francisco Standard) which both use 賀錦麗 , which is different from 贺锦丽. We probably need a native Chinese speaker to assist here. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 23:36, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

They are identical, one uses traditional (more complex) and the other simplified versions of the same characters. M.boli (talk) 00:36, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment The South China Morning Post article is four years old. It acknowledges—as user:Slatersteven has already indicated—the name, "Kamala Devi" is from Sanskrit, it says, "To assist voters not proficient in English, the law requires that candidates’ names be translated into Chinese for the ballot in areas with a large number of Chinese speakers. And so 賀錦麗 will appear on the ballot in places such as San Francisco, Los Angeles and New York City." We don't know that this provision is still available, and even if it is, how "Kamala" is written in a ethnic community's native non-English script in order to communicate unambiguously to a critical number of voters not proficient in English is not of encyclopedic value in WP, for the simple reason that Chinese may not be the only script. I suggest that we not pursue this line of investigation much further, unless it appears in 2024 sources, and not just once. If there is agreement with this, can someone please collapse this thread? Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:52, 28 July 2024 (UTC) Updated Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:02, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
  • This is not about her official name and its Sanskrit origins, so stop attacking that strawman. This talk section is about a Chinese name she was given by the father of one of Kamala's friends. And she adopted and used it as part of her public office. It is relevant to her early career. It is not a transliteration for the benefit of voters. And other politicians have tried giving themselves a cute Chinese name, and usually they are rejected for it. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 02:34, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
    • Ahh I see, at least one of you other sources seems to say this is not unique "When San Francisco Supervisor Dean Preston ran for reelection in 2020, he changed his name on the ballot—not his English one, but his Chinese identity.". Also (as far as Im can see) they are talking about the ballot, not "as part of her office". Slatersteven (talk) 10:36, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

      Very good point Slatersteven. A factoid that had appeared in one or two newspapers about how some candidates in the San Francisco area use Chinese names to court voters, and appear on the ballot in both the Roman and Chinese scripts to help those who are not proficient in English simply does not have enough due weight to warrant inclusion in such an article. I think we are wasting time here. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:03, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

    That Politico article only incidentally mentions the name: The fallout from President Joe Biden’s decision Sunday not to seek reelection continues but there are indications Vice President Kamala Harris —whose self-chosen Chinese name is He Jinli (賀錦麗 ) —will maintain the Biden administration’s China policy if elected in November. Thereafter it talks about what to expect from her, policy wise. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:09, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

She's Indian not black

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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She's Indian not black look at her family and earlier Campaign ads Firefly1778 (talk) 03:58, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Where is she described as black? HiLo48 (talk) 04:35, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

See the FAQ. Of emphasis: As PolitiFact notes (see A look at Kamala Harris' multi-ethnic background and racial identity in the US, PolitiFact (August 14, 2020)), social media posts have inaccurately suggested that Harris cannot be African American because she has an Indian mother and Jamaican father, but "this is a poor understanding of history, and ... the implication that Jamaicans aren't African or connected to Africa is wrong on its face." While not all Jamaican-Americans identify as "African-American," Harris and many others do. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:00, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Please also read the third paragraph of the Early years section beginning "African-American intellectuals and rights activists ..." The US today is a complex society in which identity is determined as much by Nurture and history as by Nature. Both Barack Obama whose father is from Kenya, but with no history in his ancestry of the Middle Passage and Kamala Harris whose childhood was shaped by an African-American world, a father and an ambience, which did have a history of the Middle Passage are African-American. India, KH's Indian relatives and Hinduism have played a secondary role in the formation of her outlook. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:01, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Photo ... Kamala Harris and her maternal grandfather PV Gopalan. Lusaka circa 1971

Edit ...

Add photo ... Kamala Harris and her maternal grandfather PV Gopalan. Lusaka circa 1971

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/P._V._Gopalan#/media/File:Pv-gopalan-kamala-harris.jpg 76.156.161.247 (talk) 16:10, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Is there a provenance for this? Slatersteven (talk) 16:12, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

File is attributed to Meena Harris via Twitter. In other words, it is a copyright violation. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:28, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Provenance or not, a short visit to once-in-half-a-dozen-years-visited grandparents is is undue illustration of her life's arc. There are quite a few pictures of her with her father's family in Jamaica as well. The pictures already in the article are good enough. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:00, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Border czar 4

Wikipedia states that the Vice President was and is not responsible for the southern border. Please refer to a press conference on March 21, 2021 - Joe Biden - where he assigned Kamala Harris the responsibility of immigration which included the Mexican border. You might want to include that transcript in the appropriate place to identify way conservatives think she was the “border czar.” Kimroot (talk) 02:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Kimroot, I've moved your suggestion over here (from Wikipedia talk:Citing sources). This is the primary page that we use for discussing changes to the article about Kamala Harris. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:49, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Harris' assignment was to focus on the root causes of illegal immigration, not to supervise the southern border. It would be inaccurate to describe that position as a czar for the southern border. TFD (talk) 05:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

got transcript? soibangla (talk) 05:45, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Hallo, maybe this is helpful Lotje (talk) 05:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Kamala Harris Afro American ?

How can Kamala Harris be mentioned as "Afro American" ? Her mother's parents are both from Madras, India. Her father's parents are both from Jamaica, with African ancestry. Wikipedia describes them as Afro Jamaicans. 83.42.140.205 (talk) 10:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

See FAQ and umpteen threads above. Slatersteven (talk) 10:57, 28 July 2024 (UTC)