Talk:John Morgan, 6th Baron Tredegar

A shared interest

Hi, by a very roundabout route, I find you are working on a draft of an article I’ve planned to write for some time, that of John, last Lord Tredegar. You’ve done an excellent job of pulling such sources as there are together. Would you be interested in collaborating on it? There’s some work to be done but I’m reasonably confident it could be got over the AfC line. Let me know. KJP1 (talk) 05:14, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello @KJP1

Good to find someone similarly interested in John's life, and thank you for your compliments on my draft. Yes - that does sound interesting. What are you thinking of contributing?

My Best,

Mac Edmunds (talk) 10:22, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

You've done the hard work of gathering the sources. What I think it needs is a copy-edit, as there are a few things that don't currently meet Wikipedia requirements. Examples include:

• Use of the first name - He should be Morgan, not John, e.g. " John sells Ruppera";
• Personal opinions - we tend not to use these, e.g. "This clever decision", "Sadly, it was to no avail";
• Quotes - this shouldn't be italicised, e.g. "the sale was good for his bank balance, and his soul";
• Capitalisation - there's a fair few words that shouldn't be capitalised, e.g. "Peer, Landowner, House, Golf"
• Conversions - we have a template for these, e.g. "for £40,000 or £1,200,000 in today's money";
• Sources - we can't use Youtube as a source, and I'm not sure it's adding much. Many of the others, e.g. the British Newspaper Archive ones, are paywalled, and this should be indicated. We should have page numbers for book sources, as well as the book details, ISBN etc, for this like Paul Busby.
• Further reading - those that are used as Sources shouldn't be here;
• Paragraphs - there are quite a few one-sentence para.s that should be combined. There's also a part where the chronology flips, Evan's mentioned twice.
• Wording - there are a few oddities, e.g. "Retirement". From what, as he appears never to have worked?

If you like, I could have a go, and you could see what you think. If you don't like it, reversion is easy. KJP1 (talk) 10:55, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello @KJP1

Wow - That is all really useful! As you suggest, I think it would be more convenient for the both of us if you corrected my errors, to avoid constant messaging back-and-forth.

With regards to the Paul Busby book citation, that can be replaced with the YouTube podcast citation (also by Paul Busby), for ease.

Although I agree with all of your other suggestions, I am keen to keep the YouTube citation. Although it is social media, and therefore arguably less reliable, it is a podcast on the history of the Morgans and Tredegar, by Paul Busby and Goff Morgan - both notable historians. Furthermore, all information in the podcast would have been thoroughly, and based off of Newspaper articles and other reliable sources.

Perhaps, if it has to be removed, it could be added to the "further reading" section, as it does include a lot of information regarding John's life.

What do you think?

My Best,

Mac Edmunds (talk) 13:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Give me a day, and you can see what you think. The trouble with YouTube is that it’s not really a WP:Reliable source, but let’s see. KJP1 (talk) 17:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

P.s. Are Paul Busby and Goff Morgan academic historians? I like their podcasts, although they are a little too long for my taste!, but had understood they were more local enthusiasts than professional historians. KJP1 (talk) 17:54, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I am unsure. Both proclaim to be "historians" in all of their profiles, but no mention of whether academic. I look forward to see the results of your work!

By the way, I am located in Wales, U.K, for a reference of what times I am likely to reply.

My Best,

Mac Edmunds (talk) 18:19, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

It is probably best if we now move this discussion to the Draft article Talkpage. I've copied all this over for ease. And you can see my first run at a re-draft. I hope you like it. KJP1 (talk) 07:35, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi @KJP1

That is fantastic work, and I am very grateful that you have helped me of your own accord.

The edit is very good, and now you have cleaned up the aforementioned areas, the whole thing looks a lot better.

I may make some changes to the wording of the Evan Morgan section. With regards to the Family section, if people wish to know more about that, they could always go to the Baron Tredegar or Tredegar House pages. With this in mind, do you think it could be streamlined?

My Best,

Mac Edmunds (talk) 07:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Glad, and relieved you like it! Yes, the Morgan Family section could certainly be trimmed. But I do think we want to show the extent of the family's wealth and power, and its longevity. Those factors make John Morgan's swift and complete liquidation of his inheritance all the more dramatic. For me, his being the last of a very long line is his only real claim to Notability. And by all means make changes to the Evan section, it's your draft! I'll detail below those other improvements I think could be made.

One other thing - we don't want to work on it at the same time, or we'll edit conflict. Can you put the {in use} template on when you are editing, and I'll do so as well. It's just - in use - inside double curly brackets. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 08:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. The wealth and power of the Morgan dynasty does need to be somewhat highlighted for the reasons you have made. I will be sure to add the {in use} template, as and when I am working on the draft.

With regards to "Possible further improvements/issues", I also doubt that Paul or Goff are academic historians. As you mention, I think it would be best to leave the The Peculiar Career of Lord Tredegar, and YouTube references in place and hope for the best. After all, the YouTube podcast is currently used as a reference on the Evan Morgan article.

As for 17/19 (now 18/20), the first is simply a duplicate of "Baron Renounces Inheritance", so I will correct that shortly. The second of the two marked "WHAT?", is titled "For Sale By Auction", so I will also correct that shortly.

As for any other newspaper references that I have left untitled, they're untitled because they do not have a title, and are very small one-paragraph publications.

Thank you again for your editing!

My Best,

Mac Edmunds (talk) 10:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Possible further improvements/issues

So, I have had a first run-through. I hope you like it. I've tried, as far as possible, to maintain your text. I detail below those areas where I think further work/consideration is needed. KJP1 (talk) 07:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I have corrected the citation issues, tried to make the ancestors section more digestible while still proving John's notability, and generally tidied up some bits and pieces. What do you think?

My Best,

Mac Edmunds (talk) 11:10, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it is looking pretty damn healthy! Now we just need another reviewer. I’d do it myself, but I’m now too involved. KJP1 (talk) 11:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Good to hear! Thank you for all the work you've done on the article. It really looks great. As you say, now it's just a case of waiting for another reviewer to come along.

Hopefully it will get a response soon...

My Best,

Mac Edmunds (talk) 13:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I've tried to drum up some interest on the Wales Project page. Failing that, I might approach a few AfC reviewers myself. KJP1 (talk) 13:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Great. Lets hope something good comes from the Wales Project page. Otherwise you asking AfC reviewers sounds like a good idea.

M

Mac Edmunds (talk) 14:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Just as a side-note, I have another article waiting for submission;Draft:Princess Olga Dolgorouky, Evan Morgan's wife. By no means am I asking you to donate the time you have spent on my John Morgan article, but perhaps it would simply interest you to read?

Would it be possible for you to review it?

Absolutely no pressure - just let me know.

My Best,

Mac Edmunds (talk) 17:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, won’t be able to do that one. KJP1 (talk) 22:35, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi,

No problem. Do you know what the photographic portraits of John (mentioned in footnote e) are? As I'm sure you know, they don't appear to show up on the National Portrait Gallery website.

My Best,

Mac Edmunds (talk) 09:49, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• Paul Busby - the first, and most difficult issue. I don't think he is a professional historian. He and Goff met while working as guides at Tredegar House. The problems are: (a) Youtube, While this doesn't appear to be a Wikipedia:Deprecated sources, its content is user-driven, so I don't think it's that reliable. But it's not yet been challenged, so maybe we can leave it and see what happens; (b) Hush, Hush: The Peculiar Career of Lord Tredegar, what's odd here is that, while I can find it, although not for sale, at various booksellers, and it has an ISBN, I can't find it on Worldcat. It's clearly self-published - same publisher title as the blog - but I would expect to find it on Worldcat if it were "proper". Again, we could leave it and see if it's challenged. Incidentally, if you have the book, could we have the relevant page number.
• British Newspaper Archive sources - I've indicated Subscription required, and they are acceptable and should be kept, although they are obviously not as helpful as publicly-accessible sources. But can we have as much detail as possible? Do they have by-lines, in which case we should quote the authors, as I've done for the South Wales Argus article? Two of them, currently Cites 17/19, don't have titles, so I've called them WHAT!
• Values - we should convert all the "values", one of which - the inheritance tax bill - I've wrongly removed, to conversion templates, e.g. "£35,000 or £800,000 in todays money". But first I need to find the conversion template!

Welsh Importance

My personal view is that the sixth and last baron is probably of Low importance to Wales. As I indicated above, I think his notability really only derives from being the last of the line, and the one to liquidate the family's Welsh estates, which had dominated South East Wales, at least its western end, for 500 years. Beyond that, and perhaps his war service, he seems rather to have been something of a lotus-eater, which accounts for the fact that it is very hard to find sources of substance about him. Kudos to you for those you did find! But as far as I am aware, he features in no general histories of Wales, and really seems to be a literal footnote to his family's history. KJP1 (talk) 07:52, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi @KJP1

Yes - that is my view too.

On the topic of importance and notability, I have thought about trying to put together a page on John’s father, Frederic, simply as a little collection of information about him.

I think that I could get enough sources together, but unfortunately for Frederic, he has an incredibly small part to play in the history of Tredegar House or Wales.

Thanks for your reply,

My best,

Mac Edmunds (talk) 09:39, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Yep, the issue is Notability and I think Frederic would be even harder than John. He was only baron for 4/5 years, and really doesn't appear to have done much, except a prudent bit of tax-planning on behalf of his son. There's long been a debate about whether peers are inherently Notable, just by virtue of their peerage. I think the current view is that they are not - see Wikipedia:NOTINHERITED. For completeness, and based almost entirely on my interest in his ancestor, I'd really like to do an article on the 8th Marquess of Bute, but there is almost literally nothing to justify or source it. You could certainly try with Frederic, but I think it may be challenged. KJP1 (talk) 09:52, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I don’t really think people are notable purely via their peerage.

Frederic did own land, and co-owned a street in Cardiff which received a compulsory purchase order, and was demolished.

As a character he is quite interesting. He never spoke to his butler, Thomas Cronin, with exception of the line “Cronin, I think I’m dying”. He was an alcoholic and a chronic gambler - possibly the source of John’s gambling exploits. He enjoyed fishing and cricket (like his brother) in his youth, but in his elder years when he was living in London, he liked to stare at the graves in the local cemetery!

But none of this makes him particularly notable. As you mention, his only note worthy moment was transferring the Morgan estates to his son. If I were to make an article on him, it would be simply to add a wiki-link to his name on the Baron Tredegar page.

I would like to be able to help you with your Marquess of Bute page, but I know nothing about him in particular.

Mac Edmunds (talk) 18:09, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi @KJP1

After our discussion about Frederic, I made a small start on a page for him, out of interest if it would be reviewed.

All I did was write an intro and add a Infobox, with one references to “Who’s Who & Who Was Who”. As it turns out, the page has been reviewed and accepted - something I wasn’t expecting.

I will continue to work on it at some point, and please feel free to add any information you know to the page!

Wiki: Frederic Morgan, 5th Baron Tredegar

My Best,

Mac Edmunds (talk) 12:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Mac Edmunds - Slightly surprising, with just the one cite, but there you go! Anyways, we're now up to 13. And the list of the Lords Tredegar is complete. KJP1 (talk) 13:53, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I thought so too. Yes, the list is complete, and that was my main goal in the event of the page being accepted.

You’ve done a good job on adding to Frederic’s page. As I mentioned, I will add my share in time - I have saved lots of articles on Frederic during my research on John.

Hopefully, we can make this page 80% of what John’s is?

Mac Edmunds (talk) 14:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, all the usual search engines draw an almost complete blank. Hence my resorting to his fishing book! But I don't have access to things like the British Newspaper archive. I'm guessing you do, from your comment above. These local papers can be very useful, although one has to be wary of trivia - they thought nothing of publishing acres on newsprint on Lord X or Lady Y opening this or that gala or bazaar! Anyways, all the very best with it - and I'm also pleased the there are no redlinks among the Lords Tredegar. KJP1 (talk) 14:25, 30 July 2024 (UTC)