Talk:Heavy metal music/Archive 14

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I think "Metal Music" should be separated from "Heavy Metal Music"

Heavy Metal really is a subgenre of metal - they should not really be conflated as they are at the moment. Heavy Metal exclusively refers to the style of metal music that bands like Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, and Metallica during their eponymous album phase played. "Heavy Metal Music" should not include death metal, black metal, doom metal bands, etc. 76.99.120.109 (talk) 23:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

We go by what reliable source say...and they don't say that. Sergecross73 msg me 23:47, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Which source DOES say that, then? Also many metal genres aren't a form of rock music, but the style "heavy metal" largely is - hence a separation would indeed be useful. 76.99.120.109 (talk) 01:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that sources like this don't exist? Thats preposterous. I did the most basic Google search and after 5 seconds found a WP:RSMUSIC- approved source "Heavy Metal 101: The History of Death Metal". I'm sure the rest could be just as easily proved. This is a Featured Article after all - which doesn't mean it's perfect...but it does making massive oversights going unnoticed rather unlikely. Sergecross73 msg me 03:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

would honestly agree. "Metal" is the umbrella term. "Heavy Metal" is the genre bands like Priest, Maiden etc play. At least thats the most common interpretation --FMSky (talk) 09:22, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Based on what? Sergecross73 msg me 11:28, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah we'll need the work to be done based on sources before anything else happens. Popcornfud (talk) 11:48, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. And even with sources, I believe this would be difficult to ever realistically discern - "heavy metal" and "metal" are commonly used interchangeably. (The article even addresses this currently.) Sergecross73 msg me 12:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

just the way i see it most commonly used, be it when personally talking with people or just in the internet in general. for example https://www.reddit.com/r/Metal/ , https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/metal/ or https://www.metal-archives.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by FMSky (talk • contribs)

All three of these are unreliable sources. — Czello ^(music) 15:45, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

You're an experienced editor FMSky, so I'm rather shocked you would suggest that Reddit would be a usable source on Wikipedia. Are you really suggesting we restructure a Featured Article for parity with a Reddit group?? Seriously? Sergecross73 msg me 16:41, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I know and i'm not suggesting them as sources lol, i'm just saying that people in general (in real life or the internet) call the genre Metal most often, and its imo the WP:COMMONNAME--FMSky (talk) 16:48, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that part is closer to the point I was saying - the two terms are often used interchangeably. The article is likely at the heavy metal music article title and not any other variant because of WP:NATDAB reasons. But none of the things either one of us have talked about offer any sort of valid support for the split the IP is suggesting. Sergecross73 msg me 17:32, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Well I respectfully disagree - heavy metal may have been used as a catch all for "metal" in general, maybe forty years ago, but back then hard rock and acid rock were also used synonymously with the term, too. Even in this article, it says this. In this article it says that Gene Simmons does not consider Metallica to be heavy metal (I didn't check when those statements were made) and frankly I would agree with him (Metallica from 1983 until 1988, that is) - but it's undeniable that they are a metal band in general.

If you look at the different languages tab here, you'll see that many foreign Wikipedias do in fact differentiate heavy metal as a subgenre of metal in general, including but no t limited to the excellent German Wikipedia, which has an article for both "Metal" [music], and "heavy metal," and that this article, heavy metal music, redirects the page to the "Metal" page, not the "heavy metal," as well as the other languages that make this distinction. 76.99.120.109 (talk) 18:07, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Sources please! Popcornfud (talk) 18:09, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I provided no new information here, the sources that state hard rock and acid rock and whatever used to be used synonymously with heavy metal are literally in this article (if it's sourced) lmao 76.99.120.109 (talk) 18:18, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

You can "lmao" all you want, but you're not going to persuade your way into a WP:CONSENSUS to change without better detailing sourcing that shows that your stance is not only supported, but more prevalent than the current approach. You're a very long ways from that currently. Sergecross73 msg me 18:40, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Okay I came here quite politely with a popular contention about this article, and this whole time you have been quite rude and frankly condescending. If you want to ask me to provide sources for this potential change, you don't need to be so patronizing, especially as an admin for this site. Furthermore, you seem to be completely unreceptive to IDEA of a change here, and I don't think any source would be able to persuade you to inasmuch as even looking into this query...

I don't care that much about this to deal with this attitude. Most people have the nuance to understand that Wikipedia has conflated the metal umbrella with the heavy metal subgenre. It's not a good look, to be honest, but now I see why no one has had the nerve yet to make this change.

The German and Hebrew Wikipedias have this right. The English does not.

See ya later. 76.99.120.109 (talk) 04:37, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

This article is one of many that I maintain or mediate because it's a magnet for passersby editors to try to shape to their personal opinions rather than adhering to WP:V and WP:RS. Your proposal looks like that in a lot of ways. Maybe you're a victim of being grouped into all of that, but it's hard for me to believe that when you appear to be in multiple disputes related to your refusal to follow policy and guidelines. (Like the one currently ongoing on your own talk page.) You're not going to get anywhere if you refuse to learn how this website works, and that's on you, not me. Sergecross73 msg me 12:17, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll agree with that. I realise that this requires extensive work with the sources. The state of wikipedia regarding metal categorisation is like the state of 2004, which is more confusing than useful compared to the rest of the internet. Almost all the information collected on this topic is from sources older than 15 years. Since then, so many genres have evolved and the history of previous genres has been thoroughly described that the distinction between " derived from" and " subspecies of" has become more necessary and meaningful. Obviously, heavy metal (aka traditional heavy metal) is its own thing with its own hierarchy that has spawned a branch of distinct plain metal. Calling the many types of extreme metal subspecies heavy metal is something that rather confuses the reader. So I would definitely support it if someone would start this effort. By the way, on many European wikipedias this situation has long been solved. Solidest (talk) 13:43, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

It's been almost half a year and we haven't even had a single person provide evidence that high level reliable sources can even verify this, let alone find someone knowledgeable and motivated enough to take on such a massive undertaking. Sergecross73 msg me 14:05, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

"Morbid Angel adopted neo-fascist imagery"

This is ridiculous. What is this even in reference to? I checked the source and it doesn't even bother to cite any sources or even name any examples. This should be deleted. 73.227.19.245 (talk) 15:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

It does cite a source, it cites the book Lords of Chaos (which is, to be fair, known to be lenient with accuracy). The quote from the book is "Floridians Morbid Angel began donning paramilitary clothes for their live appearances, courting a neo-fascist demeanor, and reinforcing it with inopportune and illiberal comments in magazine interviews". Above this quote is a photo of David Vincent performing on stage in an all black paramilitary uniform with an arm band. Issan Sumisu (talk) 15:54, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Seems pretty clear to me... Sergecross73 msg me 16:05, 13 April 2024 (UTC)