Talk:Gumbo/Archive 1

Archive 1

Picture

• Can anyone do something about that picture? What is it? Chicken gumbo? The bowl has gumbo ON it. - Jerryseinfeld 01:48, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Disambiguation

CHANGE - There are other references to Gumbo not here. Gumbo the New Orleans Saints mascot dog, and 'filé', the sassafras leaf dried to be in Gumbo (called Gumbo Filé). Both are important to the Cajun country people.

I added a reference to the mascot, but I don't think that the sassafras leaf could be a meaning of the single word "gumbo", so it's more appropriate to leave it as a link from the body of the article as it is now. If I am wrong, let me know. — Pekinensis 03:15, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Comic?

I'm confused how the 'Adventures of Gumbo' comic is noteworthy. It isn't a very good comic, nor a very comprehensive article. December 16, 2005

If the publisher won a trademark lawsuit with the owners of Gumbee, let alone Disney Corporation, which does business with the Dumbo mark, I'd say it would be very noteworthy.

Errors

This article is full of inaccuracies, mainly in its attempts to set down rigid definitions. For example the assertion that good gumbo never includes tomatoes is pure hogwash. Probably half of the best New Orleans and Louisiana cooks I know use tomatoes, although sparingly, in their gumbos. The 1985 Commanders Palace cookbook calls for tomatoes in its seafood gumbo recipe (with no roux base), while the 2000 Commanders Kitchen cook book does not call for tomatoes (this seafood gumbo recipe has a roux base). Some say the differences arise because Cajun and Creole gumbos are different. Really, it's a matter of taste.

Also, the assertion that many (in southeastern Louisiana) would consider okra an essential ingredient (without it you don't have gumbo) seems overstated. While the article mentions the use of okra and filé powder as thickening agents, it does not mention that a common practice is to use okra in primarily seafood gumbos and filé in primarily meat-based gumbos. --Jdclevenger 19:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Wholeheartedly agree (though I am somewhat guilty of this). Thanks for your contributions on creole food - very nice work, guy. --Kelt65 20:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, File powder may have been a staple of cajun cooking from the time even before okra was introduced to this continent: it was certainly not introduced as an "okra substitute."

I agree with whoever wrote this. Gumbo is different all over the place. My family (from Calcasieu Parish) has never used okra at any point in time in gumbo. It's rare in the area. Kronos o 17:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

The Bantu etymology should be more prominent, since it is the original root of the word. Accordingly, the Gullah etymology ought to be moved down to the "Okra" section. Lambiam moved the Bantu etymology down to the "Okra" section, and 199.111.238.28 added the Gullah etymology to the main section on 10 April 2006. I've cleaned it up to be more consistent. Bodrell 16:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The fabricated story of Gumbo being a thin fish stew from Africa is nonsense. I am from New Orleans and my family are original French/Spanish White Creoles and my family has been living in New Orleans since 1750, so I know the history of this stew. It was an attempt to create a bouillabaisse in the New World and with the additions of items from contributors of food items to the pot of in the commuinity, the french created the roux, added onions and celery, but there were not an abundance of carrots there, so the Spanish offered the bell pepper to form the holy trinity. The soup then was created such as you do bouillabaisse and the Africans offered okra, in which it was the strangest thing in the pot so people started to refer to it as Gumbo from the african word for okra and the Spanish added tomatoes. Later down the road the germans added sausage to the gumbo and the Italians reinforced the method of using tomatoes. The Indians gave Filé(ground sassafrass leaves) and Voilá, you have Gumbo. Gumbo has never contained fish, and never does. If the Africans would have brought the love of a fish stew then it would have remained fish as New Orleans has incredible access to fish. If someone was getting shrimp from the water, they could have got fish as well. That information given is fabricated to go along with the "Africanism" linked to the word gumbo. The vietnamese in New Orleans have a fish stew resembling gumbo, but you don't see people calling there stew Gumbo. Many cultures have stews resembling a Gumbo, that doesn't mean they get any credit or claim to it.

~Robert Dupré

Gumbo was not devellopped in America since all over Africa gumbo is used in the same manner by blacks, the vast majority of whom, have had no contact with African-Americans or African-American cuisine. To suggest otherwise and imply that Africans on the continent, with their rich cornucopia of delicacies and foods, from which Black American food was spawned and influenced, copied African-Americans is just arrogant and inaccurate. Africans were already crushing the Okra long before their arrival in America.

Shango De Torvy Torcheveau a.k.a Sanka Tulasie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.174.95 (talk) 19:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I have been shown no reliable source stating that the soup known as gumbo originates in Africa. I have seen many stating that it originated in Louisiana, and have cited a selection in the article. Outrage does not take the place of a source. -- Cyrius|✎ 05:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Not outrage, pure fact. Gumbo literally means OKRA in a Bantu language. And most cook it with OKRA in America and the OKRA makes it sticky. The same food eaten all over Africa. That is proof enough. You can look it up. Type in Gumbo and Africa on Yahoo or Google and see what comes up (I haven't even checked myself but I'm sure lots will come up). But it IS African. Gumbo means absolutely NOTHING in French, English, Spanish or any other West European language that I can speak (Portuguese too). That is the etymological truth.

Shango De Torvy Torcheveau a.k.a Sanka Tulasie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.174.95 (talk) 05:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Just because the word is African in origin, that does not mean the recipe is native to Africa. You have still provided no sources, as neither Yahoo nor Google provide the evidence you are so sure they do. The closest I see is this, which still says "[gumbo] is not a classically African dish". -- Cyrius|✎ 05:10, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Served over rice?

What is your understanding of the commonly used phrase "served over rice" when referring to gumbo? Even some of the best sources use that kind of language, including cookbooks by Paul Prudhomme, John Folse, and Marcelle Bienvenu.

But how can that be? If you go to a restaurant that serves you a bowl of gumbo with a little of dish of rice on the side, you are going to add that rice to your bowl of gumbo. You are not going to put your gumbo over that little dish of rice.

No matter how many references to the contrary, I don't think gumbo is served over rice. Rather, rice is added to the bowl of gumbo at the table. What in the world can "served over rice" mean?

Should this entry continue this strange description so long as nobody can produce a reference that just once and for all throws that out the window?

Is that what happened in the case of the photo shown with this entry? It really does look like gumbo served over rice, like the entry in this discussion remarks, whereas the photo does not at all look like the way gumbo is actually served (mostly liquid with some rice added in).

Bonne chance a nous autres! Npomea 00:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)Npomea October 28, 2007

You put some rice in the serving bowl, and then ladle the gumbo on top of it. One bowl, no "little dish of rice on the side". This is nowhere near as hard to understand as you are trying to make it out to be. -- Cyrius|✎ 15:58, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I've read through both the "Tony Chachere's Cajun Country Cookbook (17th printing)" and the "Ma and Pa's If you're Hungry Cajun Cookbook." Both say to serve "with rice," and don't specify to serve over rice. Usually rice and gumbo are cooked separately, and while restaurants serve with a side of rice, most families serve over rice. I believe restaurants serve with a side of rice so that the customer can add as much rice as they want; however, I have been to several in SW LA that serve over rice. User: aww0110

Holy trinity

i just wanted to add that the holy trinity is usualy carrots, onions, and celery, not bell peppers. Blood reaper (talk) 19:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The holy trinity used in Southern culture is notably different than that used by Northern Culture because of the use of bell peppers instead of carrots. If you look at older Cajun cookbooks, you almost always see the three together (bell pepper, onion, and celery). User: aww0110 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.36.149 (talk) 13:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Gumbo Ya Ya

I removed the portion about Gumbo Ya Ya being a variety of gumbo with boiled eggs. Gumbo Ya Ya has nothing to do with food - it simply means 'a lot of people talking at once'. Eggs *are* often boiled in gumbo, but I believe only in the Southwestern portion of the state. I grew in Lake Charles and it was very common. I currently live in New Orleans and it's unheard-of, as it was in Baton Rouge. --Geofferic (talk) 20:47, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Shrimp?

Regarding the picture currently labeled "A bowl of shrimp gumbo": I may be mistaken,but those "shrimp" look an awful lot like crawfish to me. Any objections to my renaming it "A bowl of seafood gumbo"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zombie socrates (talk • contribs) 17:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm looking at it and I'm 95% sure that is shrimp. Crawfish is smaller especially after being cooked. --Michael miceli (talk) 20:45, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

That is most definitely not crawfish - those are shrimp. But it isn't the best picture in the world, usually the rice in on top, centered in the middle, if you care about presentation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.164.78.125 (talk) 03:23, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Crawfish doesn't look as savory as shrimp does after its been shelled.-- Avazina, an Unreconstructed Southerner 01:00, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Originated in New Orleans?

The article at present refers to gumbo as "Having originated in New Orleans".

Is this known for a fact?

I ask because it seems to me possible that gumbo originated in Louisiana outside New Orleans and then made its way to "the city."

I am not saying this is what happened; I'm merely saying it's possible.

Which is why I ask, is it a known fact that gumbo originated in New Orleans, and not elsewhere in Louisiana?

--Skb8721 (talk) 00:49, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Roux

This article is so full of misinformation, it would take too much time to fix. It's sad, but it happens in Wikipedia from time to time. It's not accurate relating to the discussion of file and okra. I am a Cajun chef. I have cooked gumbo from New Orleans to Baton Rouge to Lafayette to Lake Charles. I cooked gumbo on national television. I have had articles related to roux and gumbo published in major cooking magazines. That said: I rarely use either okra or file in my gumbo. And if you take the time to read recipes in any of the books by major Cajun chefs such as Paul Prudhomme or John Folse, you'll find many recipes that rely only on roux as a thickener. No okra, no file. Sigh! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlmorgan (talk • contribs) 21:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Got that right! I'm from Louisiana and have lived there my whole life. Gumbo in Central LA is different from that in Acadiana(Cajun Country) and New Orleans. In Central LA Gumbo tends to contain chicken and sausage, but not shellfish and the roux is brown as opposed to red as such seems to be common in New Orleans. There isn't just ONE Louisiana gumbo as the different regions of the state tend to have their own versions of the dish.-- Avazina, an Unreconstructed Southerner 21:00, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

And hopefully, the article better reflects this now... Karanacs (talk) 21:06, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Not exactly... the section about Cajun vs Creole asserts, probably haphazardly, that all variations of Gumbo fit nice and neatly into two categories: Cajun Gumbo or Creole Gumbo. Both Cajun and Creole Gumbo tend to contain more shellfish than is common in the northern regions of Louisiana. Whereas in those regions chicken or wild game such as squirrel, duck, rabbit or deer may be added to the dish.-- Avazina, an Unreconstructed Southerner 00:55, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Do you know of any good reliable sources for that information (I know it's right - and you know it's right - but WP insists that someone publishes the info in a book, a newspaper, or a journal first)? Karanacs (talk) 13:53, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

The only sources I know of would be those fund raising cook books that are put together by churches or schools; I know that most of the women in my family and the ladies I know from different parts of the state have all participated in those kinds of cook books, but I don't know if that would be considered a sufficient or acceptable source.-- Avazina, a Born-again Christian! 16:35, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Bantu etymology: clarification needed

West Africa and the Maghreb

African language families

The article makes various statements about the word "gumbo" being of Bantu origin, but it also makes many mentions of West Africa. Since West Africa, as depicted in the map I've inserted here, does not overlap with the Bantu language area depicted in the other map (Bantu in orange), I'm left a little puzzled. Did the Africans who brought Gumbo or its forerunners to America come from West Africa but not speak Bantu, or did they come from Bantu-speaking Africa and not West Africa at all, or is the map of African language families inaccurate, or is there some other explanation for the apparent discrepancy? It would be great if someone who knows more about all this could clarify. Thanks. Beorhtwulf (talk) 20:01, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

The Map only shows "West Africa" as defined by the UN. In colloquial speech "West Africa" can of course also mean "The western part of Africa" (and usually does)- Bantu languages are spoken in Western Africa in this sense.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:39, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply! I'm not one to stick rigorously to UN definitions of things, but I do have the impression, and have had for a long time, that West Africa is roughly what it looks like on that map, and doesn't include countries like e.g. Angola, despite Angola being on the west coast of Africa. It seems I'm not alone, as the article on West Africa says for example that it's "west of an imagined north-south axis lying close to 10° east longitude", is bordered to the south by the Atlantic, and also that "The inhabitants of West Africa are, in contrast to most of Southern and Middle Africa, non-Bantu speaking peoples." So even if some people do consider West Africa to mean places further east and south that what I, the UN, and the authors of that Wikipedia article think about it, we are still left with a need for clarification either in this article or in the one on West Africa so that the apparent contradiction can be resolved. I wonder if it would help to specify where exactly the African ancestors of the people who cook gumbo came from, if this is known, or perhaps better, which Bantu language specifically features the term "ki ngombo", since I suspect it's likely to differ between say Tsonga and Beti. Sorry if this sounds pedantic. The reason I like to clarify these things is because I can't stand it when broad generalisations are made about 'unfamiliar' cultures and languages, like the way that people in Europe might talk about "African culture" as if it is homogeneous, but would be more careful to make distinctions when they talk about e.g. "Provençal cuisine" or "Icelandic folk tales". You can see a perfect example of this if you Google "ki ngombo": someone at the sloppily-written content farm eHow (ht tp://www.ehow.com/info_8366194_things-put-gumbo.html) has dispensed with Bantu altogether and claims the term is "African for okra", as if everyone in Africa speaks one language. I'm digressing, but hopefully you'll understand my desire for clarification. Beorhtwulf (talk) 00:15, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I understand the concerns, but the sources I used didn't get much clearer than the terminology in the article (I don't have access to my notes at the moment, but from memory that's what they said). Karanacs (talk) 01:04, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the OED is slightly more specific and quotes an etymology of "from the Angolan kingombo, the ki- being the usual Bantu prefix, and -ngombo the real word". Unfortunately, this is a citation from 1900 (hence "Angolan" rather than anything more precise!), but it does give a slightly better geographical fix. I agree with Beorhtwulf that "West Africa" is almost always used to refer to the approximate area on the map - possibly spreading around to Cameroon and Gabon, but not usually much further. Shimgray | talk | 11:10, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I added etymology according to Merriam-Webster. Umbundu is an Angolan language. Vladimir (talk) 13:18, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Hits...

Be interesting to see how many TFA mainpage hits this one gets....Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

34.9k hits on TFA day. 5.5k the next day. It was averaging about 900 hits per day before that. Karanacs (talk) 17:49, 20 September 2011 (UTC)