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"Real age"

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The main image for this article contrasts "Korean age" with "Real age". Even though it's used by most of the world, it's still not ideal to suggest one culture's counting system is more "real" than another. Are there any alternate terms that might be more neutral? I'd ping the image creator, but it appears they're no longer active. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This caught my eye as well. I would suggest "chronological age" as more neutral alternative. PerplexedPigeon (talk) 16:48, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Aljazeera uses "international system" and "western way". TIME uses "international standards" and "calendar age". BBC also uses "international standards". International standards and calendar age seem like useful and more neutral terms, depending on context. CMD (talk) 02:07, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
International age or calendar age are both much preferable to "real age". :3 F4U (they/it) 00:13, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone ahead and changed the graphic to say "International Age." The closest font I could find that matched was Bitstream Vera Serif Bold, if someone else decides to change it in the future. Mshron (talk) 14:25, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 21 July 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No Consensus - Numerically and in terms of argumentation, this appears a wash. I did consider a further relisting here, but the long time that the discussion has been running for makes it seem unlikely that any consensus would be reached, nor does the discussion appear to be moving towards one. The primary issue here appears to be related to the China-centric and "jargon-esque" nature of the term "Sinosphere", and I recommend that any future move proposals take account of that. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 14:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

East Asian age reckoning → Age reckoning in the Sinosphere – Rationale explained here: Talk:Sinosphere#Pages using "East Asia" in place of the Sinosphere and in this longer post. Tl;dr, "East Asia" often excludes Vietnam, which is also a part of the Sinosphere.

Related previous move discussions that passed: Seals in the Sinosphere and Sixtieth birthday in the Sinosphere.

Open to more suggested titles. Alternates:

  1. Sinosphere age reckoning
    • I think a little confusing; may suggest trying to determine the age of the Sinosphere itself.
  2. Traditional age reckoning in the Sinosphere
    • This is more precise I feel; currently, as far as I'm aware, the entire Sinosphere no longer uses the age reckoning for major applications, mostly just ceremonial. "Age reckoning in x" can be interpreted as a present and not mostly past practice

104.232.119.107 (talk) 10:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 10:38, 28 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Queen of Hearts talk 14:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know we don't have to have consistency, but this breaks consistency with the other articles I linked above. The issue is "not be entirely accurate" -> frequent exclusion of Vietnam. This debate hinges on how much you value recognizability of name vs the potential exclusion of Vietnam from this phenomenon. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 00:37, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Wikipedia article on East Asia includes "Some scholars include Vietnam as part of East Asia as it has been considered part of the greater Chinese cultural sphere". —Quantling (talk | contribs) 01:33, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know, I said "frequent exclusion". Also key phrase there "Chinese cultural sphere".
This is a less strong argument, but when you ask a person on the street "what countries are in East Asia", how likely are they to include Vietnam in the list? And if they do include Vietnam, do they also include Cambodia, Laos, etc (which are not part of the Sinosphere)? 104.232.119.107 (talk) 01:46, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So "frequent inclusion" as well, yes? "Sinosphere" is considered a spelling error by my editor. Is it the case that "sinosphere" is exactly the same as all regions and peoples who have reckoned age as described in this article? What if we keep the current title but mention "Sinosphere" and/or "Vietnam" prominently in the lede? We could also add redirects from Vietnam Age Reckoning and similar. —Quantling (talk | contribs) 13:09, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd argue exclusion is more common than inclusion. Yes, the scope of the age reckoning overlaps directly with the Sinosphere; the system originates in China and spread from there along with Chna's cultural influence. It's also not the most intuitive system; would have been hard to independently invent.
The redirect/clarification in lead would be ok, but I'd prefer we make this title consistent with the other articles. The other moves have already passed; should we undo those? 104.232.119.107 (talk) 21:03, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is considered bad form to propose a move back immediately after a move, though if I had been aware of those moves early enough, I would have opined there too. Was the participation rate for those discussions as low as for this one? —Quantling (talk | contribs) 21:47, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I linked relevant discussions above; you can check. I still support my original proposal, especially given the other titles. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 23:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The whole common era thing (BCE (BC), CE (AD)) starts with a value of 1 — there is no year zero — and increments with each new calendar year. When a freshman starts at a school they are a "first-year" (not "zero-year") student and it increments with each school year; and similarly for "first grade". In particular, a student who starts first grade mid year doesn't have to wait 365 days to enter second grade.
I don't know of examples outside of East Asia / Sinosphere where this kind of reckoning is used for ages of humans, but neither is it obvious to me that it is impossible or even unlikely. I suppose the onus is now on me to look and see. —Quantling (talk | contribs) 20:34, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Sinosphere article itself includes "The Sinosphere, also known as the Chinese cultural sphere, East Asian cultural sphere, or the Sinic world, encompasses ..." (emphasis mine). Perhaps that counts as evidence that the terms are often synonyms. —Quantling (talk | contribs) 13:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As above, I'd argue not precisely synonyms given how common it is to exclude Vietnam from "East Asia". 104.232.119.107 (talk) 21:04, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, so it's explicitly not fully adequate, as many reading will explicitly not see Vietnam as within its scope. Remsense ‥ 诉 10:27, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tagging @Donald Trung; this move discussion is related to your post on Talk:Seals in the Sinosphere#(Mis)using geography to exclude Vietnam from the Sinosphere. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 03:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally dislike the term Sinosphere. Maybe it's because I can't remember ever encountering it anywhere except Wikipedia; maybe it's because – like Sinogram, a direct translation of 漢字 – it feels like it low key pathologizes a cultural practice, or gives undue prominence to the influence of Chinese culture on its region.
I am sympathetic to the fact that this is – as far as I'm aware – entirely an historical practice, so I'd support a move to Traditional East Asian age reckoning, Traditional age reckoning (lunisolar calendar), Traditional age reckoning (ordinal), or the like.
But if the problem is that Vietnam is not sufficiently widely understood as being included as part of East Asia, I don't feel like the solution is to expunge the term "East Asia" from our cultural lexicon and leave it in a box on the doorstep of the Geography Department.
Also, I could be entirely wrong. Maybe in 2024 "Sinosphere" is actually a super common term in modern cultural studies, and I'm just old-fashioned (I'm certainly at least old). Folly Mox (talk) 09:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is the OP; I made an account. The latter two redlinks I'd oppose; the lunisolar calendar is not exclusive to the Sinosphere, and the Sinosphere has unique age-related practices.
I don't feel like the solution is to expunge the term "East Asia" from our cultural lexicon and leave it in a box on the doorstep of the Geography Department. This isn't what I'm proposing; "East Asia" is a useful phrase when talking about China, Japan, and Korea. It's just not the best phrase for describing the Chinese cultural sphere, which is what is happening in this article.
I've seen "Sinosphere" enough times in academic literature that it doesn't seem as unusual to me. I also don't feel like it gives undue weight to the influence of China to the region; China was indeed a large influence. seefooddiet (talk) 16:47, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the current title is better. I understand why you wish to have the Sinosphere because you speak of Chinese influenced regions which includes Korea. Not sure if we can say Modern Korea is in Sinosphere, there is more Western influence today. But, I think Sinosphere is not good when describing Japan which is in the article. East Asia is a good way to talk about the region. I think Age reckoning in East Asia is good or current title. O.maximov (talk) 07:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you pull up the article for Sinosphere, this is the first sentence: The Sinosphere, also known as the Chinese cultural sphere, East Asian cultural sphere, or the Sinic world, encompasses multiple countries in East Asia and Southeast Asia that were historically heavily influenced by Chinese culture. Key word "historically".
Also don't apply WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH; it's not up to you whether countries are in or out of the Sinosphere. The only analysis we should be applying is analyzing what reliable sources are saying about the topic. seefooddiet (talk) 07:46, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject East Asia, WikiProject Culture, WikiProject China, WikiProject Time, WikiProject Korea, WikiProject Vietnam, and WikiProject Japan have been notified of this discussion. Reading Beans 10:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think I can support the Sinosphere title. I've gone through every single search result on Google scholar for "age reckoning" and not one source mentions the Sinosphere, while multiple use (Traditional) East Asian age reckoning (system) or East Asian system of age reckoning (16/95 sources), with one source explicitly stating East Asia, including China, Japan, Korea and Vietnam. I don't really have much else other than some descriptions of the academic literature which might be helpful I guess—62/95 of the sources used a specific country name (e.g. Traditional Chinese age reckoning system, Korean age reckoning, Chinese nominal age, etc.), with about half the countries named being China (33; the others were Korea (15), Japan (11), Tibet (2) and Nepal (1)). One common alternative to East Asian/Chinese age reckoning was Lunar (calendar) age (7 sources of 95, though looking for "lunar age" was quite difficult and it probably won't work here since most of these countries have since switched to the Gregorian Calendar). ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 10:25, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The COMMONNAME/definition we're using for "East Asia" on Wikipedia presently excludes Vietnam by default, so I am not sure what to do: I would consider Age reckoning in the Sinosphere to be a descriptive phrase rather than a reified proper name per WP:NDESC, so it's not a situation where we're totally bound by external use of that exact phrasology. Remsense ‥ 论 20:19, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In support of this, East Asia: East Asia is a geographical and cultural region of Asia including the countries of China, Japan, Mongolia, North Korea, South Korea, and Taiwan. Additionally, Hong Kong and Macau are the two Special Administrative Regions of China. I also agree that this title is a descriptive phrase and isn't necessarily bound by COMMONNAME, although COMMONNAME should probably weigh into the decision somewhat as well.
    While one source in F4U's research included Vietnam in East Asia, it's easy to find sources that don't. E.g. Britannica doesn't.
    I think there are fair arguments on both sides, but I'd still prefer the clearer inclusion of Vietnam in the article's scope, and in general in discussions of the Sinosphere. seefooddiet (talk) 20:33, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Participants in the discussion have made a convincing case that "East Asia" doesn't accurately capture the scope of this practice. "Sinosphere" is certainly a less universally known term, but I don't think it's too obscure to use. Also agree with Remsense that this is a descriptive title and thus we're not necessarily beholden to the exact phrasing used in sources. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:33, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Sinosphere? Wikipedia is intended for the general public (i.e. general reader). I can understand a medical/scientific article having complex titles, but an article about how ages are practiced and determined in East Asian cultures? This is not the best way for readers searching for information on age calculations in East Asia to get from point A to B. Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 10:00, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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