Talk:Bitcoin Cash

New lead

Hello everyone. With the removal of bitcoin sv from this article I would like to propose a new lead:

Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017, on block number 478559.[1] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12] Until block number 478558, the Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash blockchains are identical.[12]

Bitcoin Cash is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

I think this lead is more comprehensive than the current lead and provides some good factual information for the reader. I don't think it is necessary to have bsv in the lead as this does not seem to be the standard for other crytpo articles (btg, btc) apologies for WP:OSE I am just trying to encourage some sort of uniformity between these articles as they seem to be very contentious and I think having some additional standards may help - it also seems no longer relevant to this article.

As it stands, the current lead is a single line of text, followed by the mention of bsv which is no longer relevant to the article as a whole, I think my proposal provides a better early insight into bch and its history before the reader proceeds through to the rest of the articles,

Please let me know your thoughts Artem P75 (talk) 23:51, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

The changes you are proposing are more than just removing the BSV mention from the lead. I am opposed to your proposed comprehensive changes. For example we do not need to cover block numbers in the lead, please read WP:LEAD, this explains that the lead summarizes. So if you want to include something in the lead, you would need to first include it in the article. I also am opposed to any content that suggests that Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin are identical, similar, etc in the lead. First lets see if other editors are ok to remove Bitcoin Cash from the lead, as for me I think it should stay as it helps the reader to follow over the BSV article so they can read about that. Bitcoin Cash only had two notable events in its history (to my knowledge) and that was the blocksize debate that resulted in the fork and the debate again regarding blocksize that caused the CSW fork off to BSV. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:11, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Why are you opposed to removing BSV? There is no stub anymore, and thereby, with no separate section, it does not belong in the Lead of the wikipedia page. BSV has no further relation to BCH. It is still mentioned in the History section where it would belong.

The block numbers I think are a good idea as it provides helpful context regarding the exact time the chains become different. Though I don't necessarily disagree - maybe too much detail in the Lead.

Where does this suggest that Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash are are the same? The blockchains are identical up until block 478558. That is a factual statement.

Overall, this change to Lead seems to be comprehensive and provide more detail than currently exists. Not to say it couldn't be expanded further. However, writing up something similar to the Bitcoin article I feel would have bigger disagreements.

New Lead proposal, considering the above:

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Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12] Until the split, the Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash blockchains are identical.[12]

Bitcoin Cash is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ILoveFinance (talk) 13:32, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Just as an additional FYI -- ArsTech uses that verbiage "...are identical." ILoveFinance (talk) 13:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Jtbobwaysf, what if we beefed up the Lead significantly? Borrowing from the Bitcoin page, something like:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

Like Bitcoin, nodes in the peer-to-peer Bitcoin Cash network verify transactions through cryptography and record them in a public distributed ledger, called a blockchain, without central oversight. Consensus between nodes is achieved using a computationally intensive process based on proof of work, called mining, that guarantees the security of the Bitcoin Cash blockchain.

Bitcoin Cash is viewed more as a medium of exchange or unit of account and less as a store of value. [23]

Bitcoin Cash is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I still see no reason to mention BSV here as BSV is mentioned in the History section.

Please let me know if I'm good to edit the Lead. I don't think there should be any issue with this suggestion. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

We do not need to beef up the lead per MOS:LEAD. Its a small article and it will be undue to cover a lot of content in the lead and also incorrect to put in new concepts in the. We dont need a comparison to bitcoin in the lead, that would be against our general principals on other articles. The lead only summarizes the article content, thats all it does. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:54, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Could you please elaborate as to why this proposed lead is unacceptable, if it is? ILoveFinance (talk) 04:29, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Comparison removed in the below version. Please confirm if good to insert.

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Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a decentralized cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

Nodes in the peer-to-peer Bitcoin Cash network verify transactions through cryptography and record them in a public distributed ledger, called a blockchain, without central oversight. Consensus between nodes is achieved using a computationally intensive process based on proof of work, called mining, that guarantees the security of the Bitcoin Cash blockchain.

Bitcoin Cash is viewed more as a medium of exchange or unit of account and less as a store of value. [23]

Bitcoin Cash is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

---------------------------------------------------------- ILoveFinance (talk) 04:40, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

New revision below, excluding the additional content that I assume you also take issue with. I will propose a new topic regarding that to improve the article with additional information.

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Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a decentralized cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

Bitcoin Cash is viewed more as a medium of exchange or unit of account and less as a store of value. [23]

The cryptocurrency is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

----------------------------------------------------------

ILoveFinance (talk) 05:01, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Number of issues here. First I dont personally think bitcoin cash is decentralized. Do we have an abundance of RS that state it is? My WP:OR is that it is highly centralized with only a few miners doing all the work. I doubt bitcoin cash is well known for being decentralized sufficient that we will summarize that in the lead. Second, again you are asking to remove the wikilink to the Fork_(software_development) of bitcoin, why do you continue to push on this subject? At this point starting to be WP:ICANTHEARYOU on this point. There is an RFC on that subject (I have already advised that), so that answer here to WP:LOCALCONSENSUS on that one will be no, regardless of what I say. Why do you keep asking about this? Third you are putting altcoin in quotes (as if it is some sort of jargon) and removing the wikilink, again not constructive. Bitcoin cash IS an altcoin, so that should be very near to the beginning of the lead, in the first or second sentence. And last you are removing the mention of BSV from the lead, I already answered that question on this talk to to the other editor here. Last, however, your proposed sentence about adding the reason for the fork seems a useful summary of the article, however I think it could be improved by linking to the Bitcoin scalability problem instead of all the text. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

My WP:OR shows that it is decentralized. But as neither of us, at this time, has WP:RS to support our claims, let's remove the word "decentralized." I would be curious to see your OR showing otherwise, though, for curiosity's sake.

Please stop making broad stroke assessments. The missing link to Fork was an oversight. This is just a draft. Rather than accusing, just point it out. I am not pushing anything, so please stop making these accusations.

"Save the best for last." Having it at the end, and in its own paragraph, is more prominent.

As for BSV, it was important before because it had it's own section. You removed the stub. It no longer requires a mention in the Lead. Why do you insist that it does? BSV is properly called out in the History section.

Revision:

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Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

Bitcoin Cash is viewed more as a medium of exchange or unit of account and less as a store of value. [23]

The cryptocurrency is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

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ILoveFinance (talk) 06:22, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I believe that this strongly fits with what the Lead should be.

From WP:LEAD: "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies."

@Grayfell Would love to get your feedback on this as well. ILoveFinance (talk) 06:26, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I have previously shown you this: Talk:Bitcoin_Cash/Archive_6#RfC:_Shall_Bitcoin_Cash_be_characterized_as_a_software_fork_of_bitcoin_in_the_first_sentence_of_the_lead_section? Next, there is no reason to remove the wikilink to altcoin and place altcoin in quotes, pretending altcoin is some sort of jargon. How the coin is viewed/used (medium of exchange, etc) is POV content and sourced from 3-4 years ago. This coin might not be used at all outside of the trading that goes on at coinbase and maybe nobody even cares today. Its not the type of thing we promote to the LEAD. I note that you and the other editor on this talk page both sought to remove most of the BSV content from this article and it has now been moved to its own standalone article. I am not sure if the article will survive WP:AFD if it is omitted, but I hope it does. That said, in my view this Bitcoin Cash coin derives is notability from two events, the blocksize wars and then later the Bitcoin Cash war that spawned BSV). Your edits seem to downplay the relationship with BSV and also seek to promote some other ideas to the LEAD (that altcoin is a jargon, that the bitcoin cash coin is somehow used as medium of exchange, etc). I dont think most of these edits you are promoting are covered by RS and appear to be borderline promotional in nature. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:39, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

1. Yes, it is still abundantly clear that Bitcoin Cash forked from Bitcoin. What is not clear there?
2. Mate, ok, again, that is an easy add. Just an oversight of a draft, nothing more to it.
3. Because that is something that is described later in the article, and supported by WP:RS. It is actually one of the major ideas set forth in the article. We cannot just assume that it might be different now that it is years later. Otherwise, none of this article should exist.
4. It is simply your opinion that BSV is a notable event to BCH. It means very little in the grand scheme of things. It does not belong in the lead when there is nothing but a one line mention of it later in the article (where it belongs).
5. Each and every edit is supported by WP:RS, the exact sources currently used. You seem to be at some kind of mental roadblock or working some sort of mental gymnastics here in disagreeing with this.

I would like to get the opinion of another editor, such as @Grayfell, on this topic, as, respectfully, none of your points seem to pass muster. @Artem P75 curious as to your thoughts as well.

For clarity, here is an updated draft addressing the link comment:

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Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

Bitcoin Cash is viewed more as a medium of exchange or unit of account and less as a store of value. [23]

The cryptocurrency is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

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ILoveFinance (talk) 13:13, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Also for reference, your previous comments relating to BSV in the Lead:

"When there is an article that discusses two topics, in this case two forks of bitcoin called BCH and BSV, it is not ok to remove mention of one of those with a misleading edit summary, in what is effectively Wikipedia:Blanking (as the lead is so small)." ---- Comment: This article no longer goes into detail about BSV.

"The BSV content belongs on this article as it has nowhere else to go and thus it will continue to be summarized in the LEAD, as that is what the lead does, it summarizes." ---- Comment: The aforementioned "BSV content" no longer is in this article and thereby does not need to continue to be summarized in the LEAD, as there is nothing to summarize. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:42, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

An updated revision for the proposed lead @Jtbobwaysf @Grayfell @Artem P75:

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Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

The cryptocurrency is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

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While I think mention of a focus on Medium of Exchange is an important point that summarizes mentions in the article, this revision should have no contestation. ILoveFinance (talk) 20:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I still continue to object for the same reasons above. forked vs fork of, BSV, altcoin in quote. You are essentially re-hashing the same points and not responding. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:25, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

1. Same meaning, and linked. Irrelevant.
2. BSV is irrelevant per your own comments. See above.
3. Ok, let's remove the quotes. Was unclear that this was the issue. No qualms here.

I laid out 5 points in response to yours in a prior comment, and also quoted your own references (in regards to BSV). Please do not accuse me of something you yourself are failing to do.

NEW REVISION:

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Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

The cryptocurrency is considered an altcoin. [10][11]

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ILoveFinance (talk) 21:18, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

One ping is plenty, I don't need three separate notifications for this discussion.

Strictly looking at the most recent proposal on its own merits, "...various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization" is both too vague and somewhat loaded in its framing. Even if this were proportionate and defining, it would still be inappropriate to introduce jargon like this in the first paragraph. Likewise "is considered" is a textbook example of MOS:WEASEL

As for BSV, just as an article on a work of fiction will typically mention that work's sequel in the lead (if that sequel is notable and can be sourced) so should this other fork be mentioned in the lead of this article. This isn't included as a value judgement on the other project. It doesn't matter whether or not the sequel is good or popular, its existence is useful context for understanding the topic as a topic. With that said, I do not think that BitcoinABC belongs in the article at all unless reliable sources can be found for it. As always, we need a specific reason based on reliable sources to mention any non-notable projects. Grayfell (talk) 21:22, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for the multiple tags.

Can you further elaborate on why this is jargon and too vague? That is summarizing what is discussed later in the article. If it needs to specify the positioning of Bitcoin Cash on those issues, can you confirm?

I don’t agree that “is considered” is WEASLE. It is considered an altcoin. But if that’s of issue, we can just say “is an altcoin.”

I still don’t understand the BSV mention. It’s mentioned in the History section. Frankly, if XEC isn’t to be mentioned, why not remove BSV entirely? On this — granted this is OSE — but these seem like reasons that the Bitcoin article would also need to reference Bitcoin Cash in its own Lead. Reason for mentioning, is because I want to understand the logic for not including a “major event” on one but including in another. ILoveFinance (talk) 21:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the late response, I have been away the last few day. I really would like to see a stronger lead for this article, I think it could be much more descriptive than it is. At the moment it is just two sentences, with only the first (very poorly) describing what it is. Yes, I know I should not be comparing to other articles so I apologize, but it is the only way I feel as though I can make my point - When looking at Ethereum for example, the lead is very informative and very well written. This particular article just seems to be very neglected in terms of overall content, the lead is where I would like to start with in trying to make this article better and more comprehensive. Controversial issues aside, whether its "altcoin" or "considered an altcoin" or whatever other matters of semantics are debated, or whatever the Bitcoin or bitcoin cash debate is; I think if we step back and look at the article from an impartial lense, as if none of the controversy ever existed, I would think it would make sense to have a more comprehensive and informative lead for this article.

As for BSV, from my research creating the BSV article, I really think the only reason it is still at all notable is because of the ongoing drama surrounding Craig Wright and the recent court ruling - if it were not for that it would probably be as dead as Bitcoin Gold. Its only real notoriety comes from the "civil war" I believe it is referred to? Other than that it has nothing - so I do agree with @ILoveFinance that it does not have a place in the lead of this article. I do however think it should remain in the history section of this article as it does seem to be quite a significant event but it makes up one single sentence of this entire article, just as XEC does, so really if we are putting personal biases or favorable cryptocurrencies aside, it really deserves no place in the lead.

And I would really hope that for the sake of the article we can come to some sort of an agreement to have a more informative lead - this article seems to be suffering quite a bit because of the controversies surrounding it. I read somewhere that it is also wikipedia policy to not interpret every single rule literally

I think if we can all come together to start working constructively, as a community, for the sake of this article, starting with the lead, we can get this article to a better standard than the state that it is currently in. Artem P75 (talk) 23:32, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

This is starting to sound like an effort to whitewash the BSV out of this article. I am not sure what is bad about BSV, as it is just history, but maybe the BCH community doesn't want to be associated with the BSV community. Both of these coins are large block variants of Bitcoin, and thus are somehow related, especially historically with the forks. This type of whitewashing is just not suitable for wikipedia. I did try to help you both to create a separate BSV article, as I think it is encyclopedic for them to be separate. Happy to participate in that and thankful to you Artem who did most of the work to create the new article. However, I am not supportive to remove the wikilink from the LEAD of this article, as I dont think it is useful nor encyclopedic. As Grayfell stated, as a child article, it should be linked from the LEAD of this article, especially when this BCH article itself has so little content is barely notable itself (BCH is only notable for two events, the first fork from Bitcoin and later the fork off to BSV). The two articles linking to each other, of course in the lead until each can grow into their own quality articles (if that ever occurs) is the standard process. We do not need to work together to whitewash the content to each article from those on the separate camps, just because they might like not each other. Yes, these articles do 'go dead' as I think you put it (or to put another way get stale) over time, such as Bitcoin Gold, that is something that happens. But over years or decades we go update slow articles and eventually people add things, its just how our process goes. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:12, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Just as a note, stumbled upon this RS stating that the Bitcoin Cash community is decentralized https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/12/17229796/bitcoin-cash-conflict-transactions-fight ILoveFinance (talk) 13:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Once source is not enough for that claim in the LEAD, nor even for it in WP:wikivoice in the body. Bitcoin Cash is not well known as decentralized. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:13, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Of course, not suggesting as much. Just documenting. ILoveFinance (talk) 18:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Gavin Andresen Mention

@Jtbobwaysf -- Removing the background of Gavin Andresen seems unnecessary. Having a clause giving a brief background would be important, especially for someone as notable as Gavin. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Gavin is no longer a bitcoin developer per the source you added. If you want more detail, be sure to be clear about that. He was also booted for the CSW issue, you might want to add that if you feel important to add more content. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, my mistake, I did not realize I did not include the word "former." That should absolutely be included. I will just add the word "lead" to the current text, as that is accurate. (Satoshi handed off control of the project to Gavin, and subsequently, Gavin relinquished primary control to Wladimir in 2014.) ILoveFinance (talk) 21:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Appreciate the catch/cleanup. ILoveFinance (talk) 21:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Why did you cut part of the explanation for the tweet? That content is accurate per the article.

Your comment of "cleanup" is not helpful in understanding the edit. ILoveFinance (talk) 04:32, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Cleanup I use when I am fixing some text without changing the overall meaning. Yes, it is notable that Satoshi handed control to Gavin and then Gavin lost interest and moved on, and then supported a new project in his comments. Just need to find sources to include it. I had never heard this story, I thought he left more to do with the CSW issue, maybe he left just as much about his BCH support, no idea what came first. But worthwhile to include if we can find the sources, certainly is historical and encyclopedic and exactly the type of information these articles need. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 10:40, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, gotcha, thx for the clarification!

I'll see if I can dig up some additional RS on that. ILoveFinance (talk) 11:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

For brief clarity (just need to find the RS), he handed primary control to Wladimir in 2014 to focus on bigger picture items and to broaden from just Bitcoin again. However he was still active in proposals. In early 2015, he actively pushed for a block size increase (he was always supportive of this, however, in 2015 is when fees began to rise and blockspace was beginning to fill), and went to the community to gather support (particularly from Bitcoin businesses). Later that year he introduced BIP101. When Core disagreed, Gavin and Mike Hearn released BitcoinXT, a fork of the bitcoin project implementing BIP 101. BIP 101 had an adjustable blocksize cap. However, in an effort to reach a middle ground of sorts, in January (I believe) 2016, BIP 101 was removed and repalced with a 2MB blocksize cap. These failed to gain major support (or rather, support died down, particularly in conjunction with the New York Agreement (SegWit2x) as this would implement the 2MB blocksize. Following the Bitcoin Cash fork, BitcoinXT had three subsequent releases: G, H, and I, supporting the initial Bitcoin Cash client, then the November 2017 and May 2018 upgrades. After that, Bitcoin XT received no subsequent updates.

In 2016, Gavin claimed that he believed CSW was Satoshi, after a private demonstration. If I recall correctly, shortly afterwards he admitted that he may have been too trusting/been duped, and it was a few months afterwards that he (mostly?) retracted his claim. This was around the time that Wladimir revoked Gavin's access--this was largely tied to an older Gavin comment saying something along the lines of "Satoshi can have write access whenever he wants."

I'll see what RS I can find that talk more about his history and share them.

On a tangential note, however, I think a writeup of the longer-term scaling debate would be a worthwhile inclusion at the beginning of the History section. What is supported by RS, of course. Could have a Pre-Fork header in the History section. What are your thoughts here? I can propose a new topic to discuss this. ILoveFinance (talk) 12:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

An addendum to the history of Gavin's contributions, he actually continued work on Bitcoin Cash (just without his own node implementation) into its later years, after CSW went off on his tangent. He co-authored a paper on Graphene for Bitcoin Cash in 2019: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3341302.3342082 ILoveFinance (talk) 12:41, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for all the comments, just an additional thought -- could such a source be used to support a line (I wouldn't add it yet) such as "Gavin continued work on Bitcoin Cash through 2019."? While additional detail such as what Graphene would be nice somewhere, the source likely could not be used to state that as it is PRIMARY. ILoveFinance (talk) 12:45, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Source supporting Gavin given control by Satoshi: https://www.ft.com/content/9b27fb72-967f-11e4-922f-00144feabdc0 Also briefly references his efforts as early as 2015 to increase the block size.

I have a few other sources lined up to discuss the history of the scaling debate, including related to Gavin, but I'll await your feedback to the wall of text I've provided above before drafting something. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Source showing Gavin wanted to focus on other projects : https://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/inside-the-fight-over-bitcoins-future

"Andresen eventually granted this level of access to four additional developers, for a total of five “core devs.” In April, 2014, Andresen decided to devote more of his time to other projects, and named one of the core devs, Wladimir van der Laan, to succeed him as lead developer. Even today, only van der Laan and Andresen can grant commit access to other developers of Bitcoin Core." ILoveFinance (talk) 15:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

FT and newyorker would be WP:RS, the other stuff would not. It would not really be due to say gaving started working on xyz (where xyz is not bitcoin cash) on this article, but it could be added over at the Gavin Andresen. Note WP:BLP has pretty much the same sourcing rules as cryptocurrency, dont add things that are not RS, and PRIMARY or these sometimes junky academic sites are not RS. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Just for clarity, Graphene is technology that was built for, and today exists on, Bitcoin Cash. Just like the DAA changes. Please advise. ILoveFinance (talk) 18:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

If you have RS to state it is built on graphene, could add that. But I think most cryptocurrencies are just blockchains and the client is what the technology is related to. We also have this issue over at ethereum, where editors want to add every possible client and it becomes excessive. I am not technical, so maybe I am confused what graphene is. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

So Graphene is a technology not at the protocol level but the node level -- in short, it allows for far more efficient block propagation, particularly in conjunction with CTOR (this is a protocol level technology), as it significantly limits the amount of redundant information that needs to be sent around the network when a block is found.

It is built into the Bitcoin Unlimited node implementation.

The source, while PRIMARY, states that Graphene is built for Bitcoin Cash.

In summary to that, my assumptions are (please correct/guide me here):

1. Likely not to be included in the Bitcoin Cash article, unless there is RS mentioning graphene.
2. This could be an addition to the Gavin Andresen page itself, would need to ensure research from a reliable source. I imagine UMass is reliable: https://people.cs.umass.edu/~gbiss/graphene.pdf

ILoveFinance (talk) 19:02, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Would you be able to propose some neutral language to add this brief detail? ILoveFinance (talk) 19:03, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Change "Website" in Infobox to "Informational Websites"

Currently the website is unsourced with the comment that it does not appear "official."

There does not appear to be an "official" Bitcoin Cash website, as there is no singular development team.

With this said, I propose that we change the "Website" which could be misconstrued as "official" to "Informational Websites," where a couple websites could be included. I would propose including the following sites:

- https://bitcoincash.org

- https://bch.info

- https://discover.cash

ILoveFinance (talk) 15:55, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Please see WP:EL. We will not be including all of these, just pick the one that is the official website. Please also be advised of WP:NOT. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

The point is that there is no "official" website, because there is no central authority. Hence the suggestion rather than just making an edit. ILoveFinance (talk) 18:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the one we have now is more or less the official one. This in an infobox, so its generally not desirable to make these one-off changes. I think bitcoin and most of the other cryptos have this similar issue with official website term in the infobox. You could raise the issue on the template page and try to change it for all cryptos if you desire. I havent seen to much complaints about it though, generally finding some other wording will also be going into the wp:weasel territory. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:30, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Not to say to change it, but to have a new section for the template, then.

I would absolutely propose to include a research website section to the template, though. I think that would be quite useful.

But good idea, I will suggest to add these two new sections. Did not know that was the process for adding new sections. Was wondering why when attempting to add a research website nothing showed up! ILoveFinance (talk) 18:34, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Generally we want the infoboxes to remain consistent across articles. You could look up the infobox for cryptocurrency and see if others agree to add more. For me, it runs afoul of WP:EL so I think it is not necessary. Corporate infoboxes I am sure the PR departments would also love to have 5 links so they can link to their new products as well. This is more of a WP:NOT issue. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:56, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Yep, just proposed it there. For clarity, proposed that there be three consistent website headers. Thx for the suggestion. ILoveFinance (talk) 19:04, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Here is the discussion over at the infobox article Template_talk:Infobox_cryptocurrency#Adding/revising_website_headers. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 21:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Reversions of 32MB and CashTokens

@Grayfell

Could I get further clarity on these reversions?

As for 32MB, why is the American Institute for Economic Research not RS? Also the research paper citing the 32MB block size?

Why are the sources discussing CashTokens unreliable?

Thanks ILoveFinance (talk) 21:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

The American Institute for Economic Research is a relatively fringe advocacy sites which doesn't have a reputation for accuracy and fact checking, so is not a reliable source. The source for Cashtoken is republished from tokenist.com and nothing about 247wallst.com indicates that it imposed any sort of editorial oversight or fact-checking on content it publishes or republishes. A lot of this recently added content appears to have been added WP:BACKWARDS. Grayfell (talk) 21:59, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

How about the Bobtail research paper citing the 32MB block size? ILoveFinance (talk) 22:02, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I just realized I neglected to include this source for 32MB. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-bitcoin-cash-hard-fork-2018-11-13

Have two others that should count:

https://www.fool.com/investing/2021/08/24/the-1-factor-making-bitcoin-more-like-gold-than-ca/

https://www.fool.com/terms/b/bitcoin-cash/ ILoveFinance (talk) 22:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Do you understand what I am saying about working backwards? Throwing links at me on this talk page suggests that you do not understand what I'm saying.

I missed bobtail paper, but looking at it now, I'm underwhelmed by it as a source. This detail is mentioned on p.13 of a 14 page paper. It's an almost-passing mention buried in a symposium paper about something that is not directly about Bitcoin Cash. This is a very flimsy source for this.

Fool.com has a mildly negative reptuation as a source on Wikipedia, but it's far from the worst out there. For Marketwatch, and more broadly, do not add isolated facts and then look for sources for those fact, because that makes facts into factoids. Instead, look at what sources are saying and summarize that context. Use the Marketwatch source (for example) to explain why this information is significant. If a source doesn't explain this, than it isn't going to help disinterested readers undersand the topic any better, so it doesn't belong in the article.

As a reminder, restoring this content with new sources counts as a revert, and this article is under a one-revert rule. Do not edit war. Gain consensus on the talk page. Grayfell (talk) 22:30, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

It seems challenging to find the balance between a factoid and padding. Maybe I'm still getting a feel for what is considered proper or not. I will add the conclusions regarding the 32MB block size. ILoveFinance (talk) 22:39, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Grayfell, you are lobbing an excessive number of links seeking to understand what is going to pass, and then stating if nobody responds to you that you will assume it is kosher. You are not listening to what we are both saying in chorus. I also dont think the fool.com looks like RS, looks more like some crypto guide page and not a news article. We have discussed these cyrpto guide pages and generally they were not considered RS for most of the content in the past, certainly for nothing promotional, pushing the bitcoin cash narrative, etc. Its something akin to a Microsoft or Oracle stock quote page at fool.com, its not useful to us except maybe to establish some fact type info (what is the official website, how many coins in circulation, recent prices, etc). I would not be an RS to state that 'bitcoin cash is the coolest coin and is about to moon because of xyz'. I did remove one bit of fool sourced content, as it seemed to speculative, promotional, synth, etc. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:41, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

DAA Content Revision

@Grayfell Per the removal of the DAA content, a couple questions/suggestions:

1. I am assuming that the existing source, not itself being published, but being referenced in a journal-published work is not enough, correct?
2. This source, while different, both references the original work (since removed) and is peer reviewed. It comes to similar conclusions as well. Would this source be RS? https://ledger.pitt.edu/ojs/ledger/article/view/195

Thanks! ILoveFinance (talk) 22:33, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Here is the current source for that section, which is the only source for that entire section:

• Aggarwal, Vipul; Tan, Yong (January 2019). "A Structural Analysis of Bitcoin Cash's Emergency Difficulty Adjustment Algorithm". ResearchGate. doi:10.2139/ssrn.3383739. S2CID 214022150.

I hadn't noticed until now, but this doesn't appear to be a WP:RS either. It doesn't appear to have been published anywhere. Without reliable sources, the section should be removed.

For the other source, what, exactly, are you proposing this source be used for? WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Don't just replace sources, summarize what those sources are saying.

Grayfell (talk) 22:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Just want to check first if it would be RS. While this paper does not talk about all claims in the current text, it could probably be used to add details either to that section, or mixed into another section. If RS, then I can propose some alternate text. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:01, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

These so-called scientific sources are often not reliable. I havent looked in detail, but sometimes these can just be some grad student. Please explain why a particular scientific source is worthy to include, mostly it isnt in this genre. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 01:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

True, but also often times they are written by professors or research fellows, too.

Could you please clarify the question? ILoveFinance (talk) 01:41, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I dont have a question, we are just telling you we dont think it is an RS on this article. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:02, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, could've been more clear; Can you elaborate on this? "Please explain why a particular scientific source is worthy to include, mostly it isnt in this genre."

Maybe that last clause is why the first part is also unclear. ILoveFinance (talk) 14:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I think you can safely assume that academic sources are not going to be ok on crypto genre articles unless the scientific source author himself has a wikipedia page (eg Dan Boneh) . Otherwise we are just going to assume it is a random student and then not sufficient quality for this genre. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Why would you just assume? Most papers are very easy to tell if from a student, professor, research fellow, or otherwise.

Are we instituting a new rule? I thought published documents are acceptable (issue was with unpublished). Per Grayfell, if research is published, it can be RS. ILoveFinance (talk) 19:21, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I am not making a new rule, that is not how wikipedia works. One person doesnt make rules. We create rules through consensus. I will let Grayfell speak as to what he meant, but what I mean is if the author is not notable, the content is probably not sufficient to be considered an WP:RS. We use this across the crypto genre already. Your position about if it is published is also valid, and again WP:CONTEXTMATTERS is going to help on this. If it is peer reviewed maybe. If it is a research paper by one non-notable grad student, the answer again is going to be no mostly likely. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree with you if a non-notable student, likely not RS. But if peer-reviewed/published, I very well imagine that can be RS without the author having a wikipedia page.

This writeup, for instance, is peer reviewed and published in a journal: https://ledger.pitt.edu/ojs/ledger/article/view/195

This is written by a professor and published in a journal: https://stanford-jblp.pubpub.org/pub/hard-forks-bitcoin/release/2

Of course, CONTEXTMATTERS, but I haven't received clarity that these are RS or not. ILoveFinance (talk) 19:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

We are not using ledger journal, that is not an RS. Maybe the Stanford piece I would also say not an RS as neither of the authors appear to be notable. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:12, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you clarify how you state they are not "notable"? It appears there is a non-solid goalpost. Criteria are peer reviewed/published. Those meet those criteria. However, now the goalpost seems to have moved? ILoveFinance (talk) 06:30, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Correct, wikipedia has no firm rules. What I say here is not a rule, it is my opinion of the established consensus. You are repeatedly stating that I am making rules or changing the rules, which I am not and thus I do not appreciate this comment. I have already advised you of a previous RFC on this article to tighten sourcing, you can assume that is quite broadly construed as to content on this article. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:36, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

You are not providing any solid ground for your comments, which I do not appreciate. Tighter sourcing, yes, we've established that. The repetition is unnecessary. But you yourself must recognize the appearance of moving goalposts when it is stated that peer-reviewed/published content would meet the criteria, then saying roughly "well that's not enough, they don't appear notable to me so I'm saying these are not RS"

I don't even quite understand why Ledger is not allowed. It is a peer-reviewed journal focused on blockchains. This is not a crypto-news source. It is a peer-reviewed journal. You just stated "that is not an RS." ILoveFinance (talk) 06:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I will remind you that Wikipedia isn't a platform for promotion or advocacy. It isn't enough for a source to be technically reliable in some unspecified context, that source needs to be neutrally summarized for the benefit of disinterested readers. In order to know whether or not a source is reliable, we need to not only know the source, but what it is going to be used for. Grayfell (talk) 07:06, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Images to support bch use as a medium of exchange

I am wondering if we are able to use images of transactions, providing they follow Wikipedia's copyright rules, within the article to depict its use as a medium of exchange. I see many articles with images alongside the written content and think it is a very good way to illustrate this capability to the reader as well as strengthening the quality of the article by providing a visible example of bch implementation. Unless there is something that I am missing, I do not really see how this can be anything but a positive addition to the article, providing the image follows the wikipedia copyright rules Artem P75 (talk) 05:31, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I dont think we even have decent RS to state this subject is even used as medium of exchange. Thus the image would be UNDUE. I am aware that this subject wants to promote itself as medium of exchange, but we follow RS to see if actually does it (not PR). Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Discussion: Removal of White Paper link

@Jtbobwaysf can you please explain how the white paper is "nonsense" That's hardly a productive edit description. That is the exact whitepaper, and found on "the official" site, per you. ILoveFinance (talk) 06:34, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I do see someone has tagged the website for source needed. Do you dispute this is the website? If so, feel free to remove it. This type of content can only stay if it without dispute. I am not opposed to its removal. I did remove the absurd claim that Satoshi Nakamoto wrote the whitepaper for Bitcoin Cash. Did you add that content? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:41, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The whitepaper was published as a document explaining important fundamentals, as summarized in the title: "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System". The fundamentals cover several key aspects of Bitcoin such as a system avoiding a trusted third party, using a chain of proof of work, and an incentive mechanism for securing the network. It is important to note that what is described in the whitepaper does not exist in any exact form in today's Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash or any other chain. However, both Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash use the whitepaper as a basis for their fundamentals and a historical reference.

For a parallel situation, please consider, for example, Martin Luther's Theses. Can only the Lutheran church claim that as a historical root? Or is it valid for Protestantism in general to claim it as part of their historical roots? Or the Bible as a whole, there are many sects in Christianity that reference the Bible as their historical root.

It is a similar reality for Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash, whether or not one group acknowledges the other's use of the whitepaper.

Regarding your question: not sure. ILoveFinance (talk) 15:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Find many RS to show that this is the whitepaper. This is a WP:FRINGE POV to state that Nakamoto wrote a whitepaper for Bitcoin Cash. Stop pushing a promotional narrative. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Bitcoin Cash is a fork of Bitcoin, so they share history and heritage prior to the fork. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

While that might be true, do you have any RS that states this whitepaper is the whitepaper of Bitcoin Cash? We dont just WP:SYNTH things here. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:45, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Active community sanctions

Please see the "WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS" notice at the top of this page. The reason community sanctions apply to this topic is that there has been a never-ending stream of users wanting to use Wikipedia to promote crypto technology. That will not be happening. New users need to understand that articles do not use market-speak. Also, it is not reasonable for an WP:SPA to expect other editors to spend an excessive amount of time explaining basic procedures and fixing inappropriate wording. Questions can be asked at WP:Teahouse. Johnuniq (talk) 07:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Correcting "Bitcoin" to "bitcoin"

@GhostOfNoMan -- I noticed your update of "Bitcoin" to "bitcoin," per the Bitcoin FAQ. Should we update all references from capital B to lowercase? If confirmed, I can take care of that unless you plan to. Thanks! ILoveFinance (talk) 03:18, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I was wondering that myself! I posted about it on the Bitcoin talk page a few hours ago, to get other people's thoughts because I was unsure (Talk:Bitcoin#Capitalisation (bitcoin vs Bitcoin)). I feel like it wouldn't make much sense for the lowercase style to apply solely to the bitcoin article, right? So I'd definitely support updating Bitcoin → bitcoin in this article, unless anyone disagrees for some reason! GhostOfNoMan 03:40, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

There has been a lot of discussions over the years at Bitcoin and I thought the consensus was to use large B. I suggest to post over at that talkpage as that article gets much more editor traffic than this article. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 04:16, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Consensus is apparently for lowercase bitcoin per Bitcoin/FAQ (since at least 2014) – but yes, I've opened a discussion there as well. GhostOfNoMan 04:47, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

@Alon Alush, "bitcoin" must be lowercase, per Talk:Bitcoin/FAQ. Please revert your edits relating to this. Thank you. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:54, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. I wasn't aware of this up until now. Alon Alush (talk) 14:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

All good! Many of us weren't until GhostOfNoMan pointed it out! Thanks! ILoveFinance (talk) 14:24, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Removal of Consumer Brands accepting Bitcoin Cash

@Grayfell -- notes per the removed lines:

On the DISH point, "regurgitated" or not, that is RS. But a passing mention, so fair enough.

For AMC, Gucci, and Tag Heuer, yes, this article is not about BitPay, but BitPay is a very common tool for businesses to accept cryptocurrencies. I do not understand how this would not be relevant. Business choose what currencies they want to accept through BitPay. It is not every crypto BitPay supports. That makes it relevant. But for sources, I was just about to add another when I noticed the removal. https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/12/22779137/amc-theaters-movie-tickets-cryptocurrency-bitcoin-cash-ethereum-litecoin -- RS; this doesn't even mention BitPay, but since there is RS also mentioning BitPay, both should be included. Yes, one of four currencies (bitcoin, Ethereum, and Litecoin), but those four were chosen. If it should be written such as this "AMC began accepting Bitcoin Cash, bitcoin, Ethereum, and Litecoin in 2021," then that makes a lot of sense to me. These are not small nor insignificant brands, and these brands chose these currencies, so suggesting this would be "promo" seems odd to me. ILoveFinance (talk) 14:30, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Per The Verge article: I don’t own cryptocurrency, so I can’t personally verify how to use it to buy things online with AMC. However, at checkout on AMC’s website, PayPal is listed as a payment method with the note that it “supports cryptocurrencies.” Presumably, that means you’ll have to log in with your PayPal account and select any cryptocurrency that’s accessible there to pay for tickets or concessions. PayPal appears to be the only way to pay with cryptocurrency at AMC for the moment, so if you would prefer to use a different method, you might be out of luck right now.[2]

The author of that article openly admits they don't know how this works, and cannot be arsed to find out. This source is nothing at all, and is, yet again, a good example of why you should stop trying to edit backwards.

Not every isolated, context-free fact belong in this (or any) article, and Wikipedia isn't a platform for promotion or advocacy. If you don't see why this is promotional, I don't know what to tell you. Using Wikipedia to artificially inflate the importance of a cryptocurrency by misrepresenting obscure sources is functionally promoting that cryptocurrency. Grayfell (talk) 18:34, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Why do you claim the first article is not relevant, then? You haven't disagreed with any other point from above. ILoveFinance (talk) 19:20, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

To specifically highlight, the brands had to choose to accept Bitcoin Cash alongside the other cryptos. Companies select what currencies they want to accept, it will not be every currency BitPay offers. ILoveFinance (talk) 19:21, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, not to incessantly comment, but the point of the Verge article wasn't to use it specifically for the line, rather, in consideration of the tweet from the CEO that is in the article, where Adam Aron called out Bitcoin, Ethereum, Bitcoin Cash, and Litecoin. A major figure representing an international franchise. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:26, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Step outside of the crypto bubble for a second. Many commercial websites which offer international shipping choose to provide a drop-down menu of different currencies for prices, which are then applied to products across the entire site. This is straightforward, but it not trivial to implement and is almost always done via an intermediary payment processor. The payment processor converts the money for the company, but this is still a conscious choice from those companies, and they choose which currencies are used. If any wiki article for a commercial service mentioned this it would be an instant red-flag for being spam or paid editing.

That a crypto payment company would offer a similar (but less convenient) service is pure trivia. These flimsy sources do not make it any less trivial. These companies are not accepting BCash, they are taking payments which are converted into a single currency via an intermediary service. This is similar to a company taking payment in dollars, euros, and pounds via Square or Paypal or whatever. The main difference is the addition of yet another middle-man, but it's trivial regardless.

That a memestock CEO would make a tweet hyping a cryptocurrency service is bland hype. Again, it isn't enough to list facts in isolation, we need to use reliable sources to explain to disinterested readers why these otherwise trivial details are encyclopedically significant. In this case, that appears to be impossible. Grayfell (talk) 23:03, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this -- I don't disagree with you on much of this. I also agree with @Jtbobwaysf 100% that this is not a list of places that accept Bitcoin Cash. No doubt about it.

My contention is that these are non-trivial businesses that are choosing to accept it, whereas they could have chosen to not accept it. To me, that gives it relevance. But we're at a difference of opinion, and I don't have more reason than that as to why it was included. Was simply a good faith argument of why to include.

Thanks ILoveFinance (talk) 02:54, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Any small or medium sized biz is pretty much trivial for wikipedia. We do include some governments accepting ethereum and bitcoin and can maybe also do this for bitcoin cash. But what you are referring to as major is probably undue in both its inclusion and also the puffery of the businesses that are receiving it. Your edits on this article now appear to be promotional of the article subject. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:20, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• Wikipedia is WP:NOT of list of the places that accept bitcoin cash. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 04:58, 7 October 2024 (UTC)