Talk:Bachelor tax

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This article was nominated for merging with Resm-i mücerred on January 2015. The result of the discussion was Not merge.

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to not merge Fephisto (talk) 08:06, 16 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Both pages at the moment seem to be enough of a stub that I think it might benefit to merge Resm-i_mücerred into the Bachelor tax page here. I'm not sure if that will mess up the Ottoman Taxation menu though. Fephisto (talk) 14:55, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'd oppose a merger; since Resm-i mücerred and Bachelor tax are different subjects, and at least one of them is relatively substantial and focussed. The Bachelor tax page would benefit from expansion, though. bobrayner (talk) 19:15, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it'd be better idea to add an "Ottoman Empire" section to the Bachelor tax page instead, then, and link to Resm-i mücerred as "Main Article" in that section? Fephisto (talk) 13:31, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have done this...I think I'm going to close this discussion and leave it like it is. Thanks for the comment. Fephisto (talk) 21:12, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(for the record, and for others possibly thinking of doing similar in the future. I see how the Ottoman tax is slightly different than a strict bachelor tax, as it was part of the other resm-i- prefixed taxes.) Fephisto (talk) 12:21, 16 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Future work

Some things to research and add:

I found a lot of websites say that Missouri imposed a bachelor tax in its first legislative session in 1820. No idea when it stopped. It'd be interesting if it was the Atzinger case that stopped it...
It'd be nice to know when Montana's bachelor tax was initiated.
I saw a lot of sites say that Peter the Great instituted a bachelor tax in 1702, but found no appreciable sources for it.
I saw some sites note that Rome instituted a bachelor tax under Caesar's rule in 18 B.C. instead of Augustus' rule in 9 A.D..

Fephisto (talk) 21:11, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, the court case indicated when Montana's bachelor tax was instantiated, so cross that one from the list. However, the Michigan Historical Society magazine notes a number of other states and places that it would be nice to have a better source that at least gives the dates of when they started and/or ended. As such, the wishlist is comprised of the following:

Did the ancient Greeks have a bachelor tax? I saw some websites imply this, but do not say which cities, when, or give the cost of the tax.
Did Caesar impose the bachelor tax, or was it actually Augustus? I can find sources for the latter, but not the former.
Did Peter the Great instantiate a bachelor tax in 1702?
When did Missouri's bachelor tax end and why?
There was supposedly a bill passed in 1913 in the U.S. instantiating a bachelor tax, but I can not find it.
The Michigan Historical Society magazine notes that Georgia, Maryland, and Wyoming all had bachelor taxes. But I can not identify when nor when they stopped being collected.
By the same magazine, Argentina supposedly had such a tax, but I do not know when it was collected.

Fephisto (talk) 08:16, 19 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I read more on the Lex Papia Poppaea and Lex Julia pages. Caesar did not impose the bachelor tax. Augustus amended Caesar's laws so that they did. I think that is where the confusion stems from. Scratch that from the list. Fephisto (talk) 08:23, 19 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I just found out about Wyoming. I would like to get an originary source for it. Who actually introduced it? There was an editorial in Rawlins apparently. What kind of arguments were they making back then? Fephisto (talk) 16:08, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Finally found a source for this. It was proposed, but not passed. Fephisto (talk) 18:41, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK, Peter the Great did NOT institute a Bachelor Tax in 1702. He instituted a "soul tax" that taxed all men--not all bachelors. It was nice to finally get to the end of this one.^[1] I also finally got a source for Argentina. I'm still working on Georgia and Maryland. Fephisto (talk) 18:41, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, so the Greek thing is supposed a mention in Plato I have heard. I am still looking for a good source on this one. Fephisto (talk) 23:39, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

found that Canada had a bachelor tax between 1918-1923, I can find sources that give the initial year via Google News, but not the ending year. Who proposed the tax, how much it was, and why it ended are unknown as well. Fephisto (talk) 08:08, 20 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In general, I'm having extreme difficulty finding ending dates for these things. Fephisto (talk) 18:41, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Could take in some sources from Marriage promotion. Fephisto (talk) 12:45, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Now that I think about it, that Repelen, Germany case doesn't sound right. Was this in the middle of the Weimar hyperinflation? How much was 2000 marks/month back then? I'd like to find a secondary source for that one. Fephisto (talk) 00:49, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Hulme, Roland (July 2017). "Ye old taxes". Vol. 21, no. 5. Renaissance Magazine. Before the days of the eligible bachelor, unmarried men were seen as rather unseemly.

Batavia

I don't quite know where to put this, but if anyone wants to see the Batavia paper cited:

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2010/Batavia%20NY%20Daily%20News/Batavia%20NY%20Daily%20News%201920%20Nov-May%201921%20Grayscale/Batavia%20NY%20Daily%20News%201920%20Nov-May%201921%20Grayscale%20-%201418.pdf#xml=

Fephisto (talk) 14:06, 13 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the Schenectady Gazette source

The only other thing given a specific date in the article in the Schenectady Gazette 1934 paper that can be cross-referenced in the Schenectady article is the Virginia motion. However, it says that it was merely mentioned in committee, not honestly proposed. Fephisto (talk) 07:52, 20 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal 2

I also think that it should be merged with Tax on childlessness. As for now such interwiki links as this are confusing or unhelpful. Zezen (talk) 16:35, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I could maybe understand this if bachelor taxes were solely used as a pro-natalistic policy, in which case it make make sense to place both as subsections of Natalism#Natalistic_politics. However, bachelor taxes were implemented for a wider variety of reasons than as a pro-natalistic policy in the past. Such as for providing for widow pensions, simply encouraging marriage in the times or places where it was considered very important for females to get married for reasons of economic support, for upholding those morals of those societies (e.g., New Jersey suggesting it as a sumptuary tax, or various state legislatures having debates about whether bachelor had higher delinquency rates), racial reasons (in the case of South Africa), or just as a straightforward revenue measure. These are distinct reasons from the Tax on childlessness or natalism in general, and thus I disagree with such a merge. Fephisto (talk) 09:06, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Fephisto - I understand now the difference and agree. Thank you for the explanation.

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[france-1] Hulme, Roland (July 2017). "Ye old taxes". Vol. 21, no. 5. Renaissance Magazine. Before the days of the eligible bachelor, unmarried men were seen as rather unseemly.

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