Talk:Agnivansha

How it is possible?

The article says that

"With the influence of Ved mantra four Kshtriyas will be born"

This is mythical and impossible to creat human by the influence of Mantras. It should be re-written with historical perspective with feasible theory of origin of Agnivanshi kshatriyas.

My view is that these people were worshippers of 'fire' and later included in 'kshtriyas' hence known as agnivanshi. burdak 09:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is not possible.But the Bhavishya Purana says so.It must be understood from this version of Bhavishya Purana that at the time of Ashoka's sons, a yajna was held at Mount Abu.Four persons either reconverted into Hinduism from Buddhism or they were purified with Agni ceremonials as we do now.Agni is essence of Hinduism.No Yajna, marriage, Hom, and creamation is possible without it.But it can not be possible to tell who were the four persons that participated in this Hom or Yajna.They might be Jats also.Or they might be Scythians or Ex Kshatriyas who lost their identity as Kshtriya.Or it might also be possible that they were Kshatriya but the Yajna was to revitalize them.Can you suggest with proofs that who were the four persons?

--Shivbramh 10:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I have got one recently published book-"Vindhya kshetra ke Pratihar Vansh ka Itihas" by Dr Anupam Singh (2006-07), that writes on page 26 that "During those days most of the kshatriyas and vaishyas had adopted Buddhism leaving their clans. The rishis later attempted to bring them back in to sanatam dharma, the four kshatriyas clans, in yagya before agni so they started calling themselves agnivanshi." Similar view is given by Munshi Dev Prasad in his book -Parihar vansh ka prakash, page 52. We can Add accordingly to the text. --burdak 17:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Shri Burdak, I feel now you are near the truth.At the time of Buddha Ajatshatru was king of Magadh.The religion of Buddha spred in India and out of it.Buddha was perticulerly not very happy with Bramhnical rituals.He also opposed castism.After his religion spread,Non Kshatriya dynasties came to rule Magadha.Nanda Dynasty was famous for disregarding Bramhins and Kshtriyas.Chanakya by his wisdom or diplomacy removed their rule and a new dynasty Maurya came into existence.But king Ashoka of the dynasty also became Buddhist.His sons ruled around fifty years after him.Again a Bramhin general Pusyamitra Sunga murdered the Maurya king.This is historical fact. The Bramhins were not happy with Buddhism.Because it was challenging them most.It was upto the extent that they were made second in order of Varna.All Buddhist and Jain granths mention Brahmins after Kshatriyas.Some of them even go farther. It was considered by Brahmins to revitalize Sanatan Dharma.They did it.The version of Bhavishya Purana confirms it.I agree that it did not tell any Bhavishya (Future),but tells the story of some events took place.The version emphsize importance of Brahmin rituals.You must understand Pusyamitra and his son Agnimitra were staunch Brahmins.The name Agnimitra itself shows importance of Agni among Hindus.The name Pusya is also associated with a star which provides "Rajyoga" in Hindu Mythology.I feel,the Yajna at Mount Abu was performed during the time of last Maurya emperor,but under influence and active participation of either Pusyamitra Sunga or his son Agnimitra.The time, the venue,the name, and the circumstances support my view.

--Shivbramh 17:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

References needed

Dear Shri Rajawat, It is mentioned in legend about four kshatriyas Pratiharas (Pariharas), Chauhans (Chahamanas), Solankis (Chaulukyas), and Paramaras (Parmars). But there seems no basis of Naru Rajputs (Naru means Fire) and Ghosh as mentioned in the article as agnivanshi. The theme is alright to revive sanatan dharma. As you said Yajna at Mount Abu was performed during the time of last Maurya emperor, The period mentioned is not correct and has no basis. Had it been during or after Mauryan rule it would have found mention in the records of Gupta dynasty, who were the supporters of Brahmanic vedic religion. The guptas do not write about these clans. It is also needed to find who were the clans included in each of the agnivanshi kshatriya. The text referred from Bhavishya purana seems to be from latter edited version. To make the article authentic it is needed to support with references. Problem is that we completely forget the nagavanshi rulers in India. Most of the clans included in kshatriya clans are from nagavanshi rulers. Proper history will be written on the basis of historical records seen in totality.

Thanks and Regards,

Ans: Vedhas talk only about Agni and have not mention of surya. Surya is nothing but a fire ball as per the vedas. Agni=Surya. No difference. Suryavamshis itself are nothing but Agni.

ABOUT CHANDRAVANSHI'S

Hi Dear All,

It is confirmed that we belongs to Chandravanshi's and Chandel are a part of Chandravansham. Also I would like to add more informations here that Chandravanshi's are known as Gwala/Gadaria/Shephereds. Because Lord Krishna was the shephereds. And we are all knwon as Gwala/Shephereds/Ahirs and very commonly known as Dhangars / Neekhars.

Earlier peoples known and recognised by their linage like Suryavanshi's, Chandravanshi's, Agnivanshi's but later on they adopted the name as Rajputs.

Originally we are SHEPHEREDS / GWALA known as (Chandravanshi' or Somavanshi's and in some part of country knwon as (Yaduvanshi's a part of Chandravanshi's). As regards to Gotra's - Chandel is a main gotra and again it is further divied into sub gotras e.g. Chandiya Chandel, Rahiya Chandel, Guiya Chandel, Mankiwale Chandel, Basedewale Chandel and Chandrayan.

A large part of Chandels are in PAL COMMUNITY which is known as PAL KSHATRIYA / PAL SHEPHEREDS.

We all have to project ourselves as CHANDRAVANSHI'S ...

MAIN STARS OF CHANDRAVANSHI'S OR GWALA-SHEPHEREDS ;

1) SHEPHERED SAMRAT - BHARAT 2) " " - LORD KRISHNA 2) " " - MAHARAJA YASHWANT RAO HOLKAR 3) " " - DEVI AHILYA BAI HOLKAR 4) " " - POET KALIDAS 5) " " - SANT KANAKDAS 6) " " - CHANDRAGUPT MOURYA 7) " " - SAMRAT ASHOK

Many more stars in Chandravansham. For more detail see the wikipedia.org (DHANGAR COLOUM) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lakhmi (talk • contribs) 04:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

References needed

The Gotras of Kshatriyas named after Saptarishis and Great Sages i.e. Maharishis which indicates their "Vedic Lineage". Where is it mentioned that their gotras are named after Saptarishis? Even in the referenced websites, http://www.worldorganisationofrajputs.com/category/shakha-gotra who are Manav, Shri Vaijyavan, Vatsa, Markanday gotras?? They are not saptarushis. So it seems Kshatriyas contains not only saptrarishi's gotras, but also other gotras too. Example, Raghukula gotra in Agnikula Kshatriya.

The above concept is also supported by another referrece http://rajputanas.com/tag/rajput-gotra-kuldevi-list/ Prashar, Vatsa, Paulsatya, Chandraya, Vatsa, they are not saptarushis. So need reference on the statement The Gotras of Kshatriyas named after Saptarishis and Great Sages i.e. Maharishis which indicates their "Vedic Lineage".

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=7guY1ut-0lwC&pg=PA51&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false in this referenced book, it is mentioned that palli caste was disappeared by the 1931 census and only Vannia Kula Kshatriya was remained. Seems like author of the book misinterpreted it. Anyway, as this is already a debate, it is not good to assume as the author of the book mentioned. Dispute should not be removed till that dispute in this page is solved. http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Vanniyar#Caste_titles

Shudra Varna in South India who are trying to misinterpret or deceive that they are Agnivanshi Kshatriyas by the names of their castes which are changed due to their successful politicking in 1931 Census. Above statement with it's reference shows "Palli" as Shudra Varna. Need references on where it is mentioned that Palli as Shudra Varna.

References 1 to 7 are not reliable. These are some junk sites created for adding content into wikipedia. Need reliable sources. Where did you find information on these gotras?? On what basis they are classified and listed. What guarantee that there are no other gotras which are classified as Rajputs? Gotras are no where mentioned in puranas especially "Raja's Puranam" which is none other than "Bhavishya Puranam". Then how do you list them based on gotras? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheGodWings (talk • contribs) 16:21, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Answer to People(especially Vanniyars & Pallis) who said "References needed"

It will be very funny & also very foolish act for u to ask for references.Because you don't have the moral right for asking references as you have done very heinous acts in many pages including this "AGNIVANSHI" Page by providing fake references.Whatever references i.e each & every reference u have provided in this page in "South India" article are completely fake.You have provided castes list as references and also u have provided your own stories as references.It will be very funny to say that Draupadi & Drishtadhyumna as vanniyars because they have originated from fire.But,Draupadi & Drishtadhyumna are Kshatriyas of Chandravanshi descent.You are saying every person originated from fire is vanniyar.Technically speaking "Vanniyar" is not only the name of caste.It is also the name of "title" & "surname" used by many castes."Vanniyar" is also the surname of "Thevar" caste in Tamil Nadu.Thevars claim that they are descent of Kadava Dynasty related to Pallavas.These "Vanniyars & Pallis" castes are connected to Pallavas because Pallavas are Kshatriyas and Pallava Dynasty is Suryavanshi Kshatriya descent.

There is no caste called Palli in Government records. There are Agnikula Kshatriyas who are actually Pallavas, Pallavas are called Pallis in short Agnikula Kshatriyas Surnames and Gothras are Same Across India and please don't misinterpret this. You might change surnames of few people and how can you change them for lakhs across Andhra, Karnataka, kerala and Tamilnadu.

Current day chalukyas(Rajus) are no way related to pallavas and they are chalukyas and not pallavas. Pallavas ruled having kanchi in tamilnadu as capital and half of pallavas are now in tamilnadu and remaining in Andhra. Pallavas are defeated by cholas and cholas are defeated by sathavahanas and after sathavahanas then chalukyas came who are called current rajus. Recent generations thnk that they are the only kings, its not, defeated kings should leave to forest and after that they are normal Kshatriyas without any lands.

Agnikula Kshatriyas itself are mix of Jaipur Agnikula Kshatriyas who ruled whole south india and South Pallavas or Palli. Rajus are not suryavamshis, they are Chandra vamshis as they have baradwaj gothra. Suryavamshis have kashyapa, Raghukul, Ravikul Gothras. Suryabhagvans name is Ravi. Bhagwan Ram gothra is Raghukul he was called Raghukul nandan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.22.120.68 (talk) 12:35, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. Remember, Ikshvaku, Raghu are all ancestors of Lord Ram. Sage Kashyapa is the father of Lord Surya. From Surya, Solar Dynasty existed. Ancestor name can't be Gothra name to Kshatriyas. I have already said that Brahmins, Kshatriyas have saptarishis & Maharishi's names as Gotra Names. Kshatriyas contain Janma Vamsam and Vidya Vamsam which you don't know. Vasishta is the guru of Lord Ram. By the way, Lord Ram Gotra is Kashyapa as Kashyapa is also Saptarishis even he is the father of Sun(Originator of Solar Dynasty). So, Suryavanshi Kshatriyas contain Kashyapa and Vasishta as Gotras that you can find in Rajputs and also Rajus in Andhra Pradesh. And all Rajus are not Chandravanshi Kshatriyas. Rajus with Gotras : Atreya, Bharadwaj in Rayalaseema Region of Andhra Pradesh are Chandravanshi Kshatriyas. Articles of Suryavanshi and Chandravanshi Rajus are available in old articles of Andhra Pradesh Govt. gazette especially Kadapa in Google Books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4070:2096:FA5:0:0:152F:68AC (talk) 04:19, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Answer to People(especially Vanniyars & Pallis) about Gotra Concept by Kshatriyas according to Puranas

Kshatriyas contain the gotras which are named after saptarishis & also named after other great sages which is explained in their "Janmavamsamu" & "Vidyavamsamu" in Ithihasa Puranas.Rajputs,Rajus & Marathas etc are descendants of Kshatriyas in Kali Yuga.Then,why these Kshatriya castes of Kali Yuga will be mentioned in Ithihasa puranas ? only gotras are present at that time and dynasty names are present in the former three yugas like the gotra of Lord Rama is "Vasishta" who was born in the Dynasty of Ikshvaku & Raghu of Suryavanshi Kshatriyas and gotra of Lord Krishna is "Atreya" who was born in the Vrishni Dynasty of Chandravanshi Kshatriyas.There were no surnames at that time.Only Gotras and Dynasty names are present at that time and they are unique.Surnames of Kshatriya Castes are formed in Medeival period in Kali Yuga for Kshatriyas like Rajputs,Rajus & Marathas etc.So, Gotras are important for Brahmins,Kshatriyas & Vaishyas according to Manusmriti.Kshatriyas contain only rishi gotras whether it is saptarishis or other great sages i.e Maharishis.Saptarishi Gotras are commom among Brahmins & Kshatriyas.I hope people could understand...

Kshatriyas contain the gotras named after saptarishis & also named after some other great sages i.e. maharishis.Parashar,Poulastya,Koundinya,Dhanumjaya etc are other great sages i.e. Maharishis which are gotras present in Rajputs and Dhanumjaya & Koundinya gotras are also present in Rajus of Andhra Pradesh and Parashar,Poulastya Gotras are present in Brahmins even...Kshatriyas contain other gotras named after great sages other than sapatarishis..You can verify this by refering to the gotras of Rajputs,Rajus & Marathas(Descendants of Rajputs) & also Kshatriya Communities etc.They will be common and Rajputs possess more gotras because they are the majority than other Kshatriya Communities.But the problem exists here is the castes of shudra varna like Vanniyar and palli in Tamil nadu and Andhra Pradesh are trying to associate themselves with Kshatriya Varna..that is the reason they wanted to change their caste name which is clearly mentioned in the reference "Social Change In Modern India (Rev Edn.) - Mysore Narasimhachar Srinivas, Srinivas M N - Google Books" These Vanniyars were agricultural labourers wriiten in many books...and Pallis are claiming that they are descended from "Pallavas", it is a foolish act because Pallavas are pure Kshatriyas who trace their descendance from suryavanshi kshatriyas and they are not Agnivanshi Kshatriyas even.So, Agni Kula Kshatriyas so called pallis tried to misinterpret even in Pallavas page but in vain.Then Pallis so called agni kula kshatriyas tried to create their own page and written that they are descendants of pallavas,that page is deleted by wikipedia.Government of Andhra Pradesh clearly declared that their occupation is fishing.That so called "Raghukula Gotram" is made only by those castes in order to assimilate into Kshatriya varna but this type of gotra is no where present in Kshatriya castes as no kshatriya caste will contain dynasty name as gotra name.Kshatriyas contain gotras named after rishis whether they are saptarishis mostly or named after other great sages i.e. maharishis.If Government accepts vanniyar & Pallis as Kshatriyas then like "Rajus" government declares them as Kshatriyas...as "Rajus" caste will be mentioned in Government castes list as "Kshatriyas" but not "Rajus". A number of communities claim the status of "Kshatriya Varna",but apart from "Rajput" they are very small.They are "Rajus"(Andhra Pradesh,Tamil Nadu),"Raghuvamsi Kshatriya"(Karnataka),"Kshatriya"(Kerala),"Koteyar"(Tamil Nadu,Karnataka),"Dal Kshatriya"(Bihar),"Aguri"(West Bengal) and "Kshatriya"(Orissa and Assam)-in all eight communities which are widely accepted in the references of "India's Communities" by K.S.Singh,Vol-V.p.1853,1856-1858","http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=A0O8UtD5Bo6IiQejnIHQCg&id=1lZuAAAAMAAJ&dq=india%27s+communities&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=aguri" This was the statement mentioned by K.S.Singh in his book.This statement of K.S.Singh is given as the Kshatriya Rajus asked their caste to be placed in Backward castes list in Tamil Nadu for the Backward Classes commission which can be seen in the following link "www.ncbc.nic.in/Pdf/Tamil%20Nadu/Tamilnadu-Vol2/7.pdf‎". If vanniyars & pallis are kshatriyas they will be joined in ALL INDIA KSHATRIYA FEDERATION but they can't because they are pure shudras.Only Rajputs,Rajus & Marathas(descendants of Rajputs) are pure Kshatriyas and they are of aryan descent.If these vanniyar & Pallis try to deceive that they are Kshatriyas repeatedly then they themselves will get fooled among people.No one will accept Vanniyars & Pallis as kshatriyas as they are pure shudras.Kshatriyas are proud of their ancestry & never accept castes of shudra varna to get associated with themselves.It would be fair if Vanniyars & Pallis won't make any kind of fraud theories & misinterpretations in this page.Finally, I hope Wikipedia to analyse and study the "South India" Article with the help of experts and delete it as soon as possible.Also i request wikipedia to protect this "Agnivanshi" article from vandalism which could be done by shudra castes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.244.125.46 (talk) 10:33, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Ans : Looks like you do not know the puranas. Bhagvan Ram is Ravikula Gothra. He is suryavamsh. Ravi is Sun. Don't change the history. Agnikula Kshatriyas has Kashyapa and Ravikula gothras through out India and Agnikula Kshatriyas are through out India and not only in Andhra. Haryana, Punjap, Rajasthan has the majory of Agnikula Kshatriyas. Please don't tell them this. If you have grudge with agnikula Kshatriyas its of no use. I am not sure how vannikula Kshatriyas are related to agnikula Kshatriyas as their surnames and gothras are different.

By the way rajus are south eastern chalukyas. Don't refer to a book written by a person like you. Please refer to any book written by romila thapad. The historian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.22.120.68 (talk) 12:45, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Superiority

@Kautilya3:, is the claim of relative superiority in fact controversial? If so then we should show the other opinions, not remove the existing ones. - Sitush (talk) 14:26, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

One source mentioned it in passing without any kind of support. The other source didn't say it at all. I think we need to see some good analysis before we can document such wild claims. Besides, who cares anyway? These are all some hoaky traditions. - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:31, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

As for "controversial," I would say any claim for superiority of one group over another is inherently controversial. We don't need it in this day and age. - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:33, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

So now we have sources for nothing. I think those things did at least support the rest of what we say, even though in the ideal world they would be in the body rather than the lead section.

I'll have to check the remainder because your own perception of what is needed in this day and age is rather irrelevant if reliable sources discuss it. - Sitush (talk) 15:03, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, you only have one sentence in one source, in turn citing a 1968 book about which we know nothing. Nothing has been said about whether this is a commonly accepted ranking or whether such ranking continues to exist today and what difference it makes. I agree that it shouldn't be in the lead in any case. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 15:35, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Vanniyar community is a peasant shudra community, please check links, I kindly request to read these references and make edits

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Untouchable_Citizens/9ouHAwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=peasant+caste+vanniyar&pg=PA61&printsec=frontcover

States vanniyars are a peasant caste in tamilnadu Page 61 Untouchable Citizens Dalit Movements and Democratization in Tamil Nadu Hugo Gorringe is a Senior Lecturer in Sociology at The University of Edinburg

The Meaning of the Local Politics of Place in Urban India Labor was provided by low caste vanniyar Page 31 https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Meaning_of_the_Local/E196AgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vanniyar+low+caste&pg=PA31&printsec=frontcover

Dyeing industry was provided by low caste vanniyar Page 77 The Everyday Politics of Labour https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Everyday_Politics_of_Labour/ppbkEJAEVCIC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vanniyar+low+caste&pg=PA77&printsec=frontcover

Vanniyars are the largest peasant caste Page 445 https://www.google.com/books/edition/Rise_of_the_Plebeians/tDN0MinxMigC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vanniyar+peasant+caste&pg=PA445&printsec=frontcover Rise of the Plebeians The Changing Face of the Indian Legislative Assemblies Christophe Jaffrelot, Sanjay Kumar

Till the 19th century vanniyars are landless agricultural caste laborers Pag 273 https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Pariah_Problem/QnbeAwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vanniyars+labors&pg=PA273&printsec=frontcover The Pariah Problem Caste, Religion, and the Social in Modern India Columbia university press

Historical Dictionary of the Tamils Vanniyar and pallars are grouped and considered low caste with low status Page 385 https://www.google.com/books/edition/Historical_Dictionary_of_the_Tamils/ALUvDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vanniyars+labors&pg=PA385&printsec=frontcover

Sangitha rani111 (talk) 03:18, 12 May 2020 (UTC)Sangitha rani111