Talk:1869 Princeton Tigers football team

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Requested move 5 November 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. No prejudice against a new discussion about removing "Tigers". Jenks24 (talk) 11:44, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

– There is an established consensus for the article title to use the name of the school/team as it was during that season; Princeton University was known as the College of New Jersey prior to 1896. Examples of this consensus include:

Joeykai (talk) 21:23, 5 November 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. ʍaɦʋɛօtʍ (talk) 16:11, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Many modern sources use the name Princeton retroactively, so I'm iffy on actually going ahead with this. ONR (talk) 22:19, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen many sources refer to West Tennessee State as "Memphis" retroactively too but that doesn't matter. It makes no sense to say "1869 Princeton Tigers football team" because "Princeton Tigers football" was not a thing that existed in 1869. Joeykai (talk) 05:39, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose. Although the official name of the college may have been "College of New Jersey", the controlling factor is WP:COMMONNAME. Here, the football teams were known as the "Princeton Tigers", not the "New Jersey Tigers". By way of example, searches in Newspapers.com turn up the following results:

* 1889: 7 hits for "Princeton Tigers", 0 hits for "New Jersey Tigers"

* 1891: 30 hits for "Princeton Tigers" football), 1 hit for ("New Jersey Tigers" football)

* 1892: 44 hits for ("Princeton Tigers" football), 0 hits for ("New Jersey Tigers" football)

* 1893: 91 hits for ("Princeton Tigers" football), O hits for ("New Jersey Tigers" football)

* 1894: 142 hits for ("Princeton Tigers" football) and 1 hit for ("New Jersey Tigers" football)

* 1895: 81 hits for ("Princeton Tigers" football) and 0 hits for ("New Jersey Tigers" football) Cbl62 (talk) 00:05, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Even in the years from 1876-1888, the football team was generally referred to as the "Princeton" football team. Examples of such common usage includes 1876 (here), 1877 (here), 1878 (here), 1879 (here), 1880 (here), 1881 (here), 1882 (here), 1883 (here), 1884 (here), 1885 (here), 1886 (here) 1887 (here), 1888 (here). Cbl62 (talk) 00:26, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In the earliest years (1869-1876), coverage of the football team was very sparse, but even then the school and its athletic teams were commonly referred to as "Princeton". See 1869 (here), 1870 (here), 1871 (here), 1872 (here), 1873 (here), 1874 (here), 1875 (here). Cbl62 (talk) 04:57, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The one move I would support is eliminating the "Tigers" nicknames from the teams prior to 1881. The Tiger did not become Princeton's unofficial masot until the early 1880s. See, e.g. here and here. The first Tiger reference I found was in 1881. Thus, "1869 Princeton Tigers football team" (up through 1880) would be more appropriately "1869 Princeton football team". Cbl62 (talk) 05:19, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Abstain I support merging all these articles to a single page or deleting them outright, and can't in good faith give an opinion on the rename proposal. power~enwiki (π, ν) 06:55, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Princeton won 22 of the first 40 national titles (between 1869 and 1909). On what possible basis do you support deleting articles on the dominant football teams of the formative period in the sport of American football? Cbl62 (talk) 07:04, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

From 1875 Princeton Tigers football team: The team finished with a 2–0 record and was retroactively named national champion The coverage reeks of historical revisionism and re-interpretations of non-notable events. power~enwiki (π, ν) 07:28, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – the current scheme serves well enough. Dicklyon (talk) 06:28, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support. While the far more common name is "Princeton", there was no such thing as the Princeton Tigers football team in the years in question. If a team changed its name today, I don't think we'd go back and change the title of every single article about the team, so I see no reason to have a team that was known as the New Jersey Tigers listed as the Princeton Tigers, despite Princeton being the more common name. PCN02 WPS 19:35, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

But the fact is that they were NOT known as the "New Jersey Tigers". They were known depending on the sources as the "Princeton Tigers" or sometimes simply the "Princeton" football team, but most definitely not as the "New Jersey Tigers". Cbl62 (talk) 03:47, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Cbl62. As shown in the sources cited by Cbl62, the school's football team was overwhelmingly known as the "Princeton Tigers" during most of these years. I also support Cbl62's removal of "Tigers" before the nickname was used. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 19:42, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Further contemporary coverage has been added to 1882 Princeton Tigers football team showing the team was uniformly referred to as "Princeton", not "New Jersey". Cbl62 (talk) 02:26, 21 November 2017 (UTC) The same exercise has yielded the same uniform results in favor of "Princeton" for the 1883 Princeton Tigers football team. Cbl62 (talk) 03:10, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.