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Renaming of many GAA articles

Are editors happy with the campaign by Laurel Lodged to rename, without any discussion, many GAA pages to insert "GAA" after the name of the relevant county? Thus:

  • Antrim Minor Football Championship was moved to Antrim GAA Minor Football Championship
  • Antrim Senior Football Championship Antrim GAA Senior Football Championship
  • Antrim Senior Hurling Championship was moved to Antrim GAA Senior Hurling Championship

and so on, and on, and on...

Laurel Lodged has past form on renaming swathes of articles without consultation, but in this case it seems to be particularly pointless - who other than the GAA organises hurling championships? Brocach (talk) 17:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

You're wating your time here Brocach. Nothing but tumbleweed passing this project. But for the record, what about that GAA County Board known as London GAA? If the word GAA was removed from the title, would you recognise it? Which of the following are Gaelin Football and which Association Football (no cheating now): London Intermediate Football Championship, London Intermediate Cup, London Senior Cup, London Senior Football Championship, London Challenge Cup. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:48, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
If I'm "wating" my time here I might as well just revert, but I prefer to allow discussion. You have not changed London to London GAA - as you know, the wrecking you have done has been at articles below GAA county level. I don't recognise any "Gaelin Football" items among the titles you mention but as a former member of London GAA I do of course know the names of London Gaelic football competitions. Brocach (talk) 00:46, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Discussion would be nice . It would also be nice if the process was completed. There is stuff all over the place now Gnevin (talk) 16:51, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
The solution is to revert the many title changes made by Laurel Lodged without discussion. No-one asked for all of these articles to be renamed to insert "GAA", when none of the competitions contain "GAA" in their names. The reasoning subsequently advanced is spurious: no-one else runs hurling competitions, and Laurel hasn't come up with a single instance of any other GAA competition name that is identical to a non-GAA competition, so that one article name or the other needs to be changed; he/she appears to have renamed all these articles 'just in case' any confusion might arise. Even if such an example could be found, it doesn't follow that it is always the GAA article that should change. Unfortunately, the dozens of changes made by Laurel can only be reversed by an admin (with time to spare). Brocach (talk) 17:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I largely agree with Bronach on the changing of titles withiut any discussion. The Armagh Senior Football Championship is not known as the Armagh GAA Senior Football Championship. Each of the articles should indicate that it is a Gaelic football or hurling competition organized by the Armagh GAA board. This should be the case for all counties. The only exceptions to this would possibly be London or New York or any other GAA competition organized outside of Ireland. This should be the case fro football anyway as there are certainly different versions and others are usually better known on the other countries. If we follow Laurel's pattern than we will have to rename every sporting competition to include the name of the association also. This is already done in competitions that have duplicate names, such as the Munster Senior Cup in rugby and soccer. I do not think we need to do that for every competition. Pmunited (talk) 20:42, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Laurel Lodged's renaming process, however it should of been brought to discussion first as it is on such a large scale. Mabuska (talk) 21:56, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
As Laurel Lodged didn't bother to persuade anyone why the names should "of" been changed, can you suggest any reason, Mabuska? Brocach (talk) 22:15, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Not bother? Did you even read my first contribution above? I thought that it cut to the heart of the matter. You may have been distracted parsing the contributions for spelling errors. I'm sure we're all grateful for your OED (or should that be OTT?) corrections. Anyhoooo....to make my point a tad more explicit. Firstly, "GAA" refers not to the competition but the sponsoring administrative body (e.g. Ulster GAA). Secondly, the name follows the name of the parent article (e.g. Ulster GAA). Thirdly, it disambiguates from other football competitions that might take place in Ulster from time to time - such as soccer, for example. Fourthly, neither Ulster GAA nor any other GAA "county" has a monopoly on the name "Ulster" or any other "county" among sporting bodies in Ulster or elsewhere. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:19, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Your first comment above explained nothing whatever. It flew off at a tangent about London.
(1) The name of the competitions does not include the term "GAA". By renaming articles to insert "GAA" and disrupt the name of the competitions, you instantly make the articles less accurate and less useful, and in every case, you have left the bolded name in the lede in disagreement with your imposed title.
(2) As for the notion that the name of the "parent article" must determine the name of all others, can you explain why, for example, World Series isn't called "Major League Baseball World Series"? Why Pro 12 isn't "Celtic Rugby Limited Pro 12"? Why the Wimbledon Championships aren't listed as "All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club Championships, Wimbledon" and so on ad nauseam?
(3) How many other organisations in Ireland organise hurling competitions? Can you give one - just one - example of a GAA-run competition that shares its name with a competition in any other sport?
(4) Have I, or has anyone else ever, suggested that the GAA has a monopoly on county or province names?
I try to be polite here but your arrogance in unilaterally and pointlessly renaming dozens of GAA articles would try the patience of a saint. You must stop renaming huge numbers of articles without even attempting to explain yourself, never mind seek agreement. You are a vandal. Stay away from the GAA articles unless you are prepared to be civil and constructive. Brocach (talk) 22:42, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Talk:London GAA Intermediate Football Championship .Requested move here Gnevin (talk) 13:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Just because we have disagreed frequently on this point does not mean that you are right and I am wrong. Quite the opposite - most of your proposals re GAA have been defeated. Other forums have suggested that it you who is disruptive and that you should be topic banned. Up to this point, I have refrained from ad hominem attacks and tried to let the logic speak for itself. I will try to continue with my usual style of attacking the ball instead of the man, despite the temptation to do otherwise. Regarding your point "The name of the competitions does not include the term "GAA". At no time have I suggested that it does. This is a strawman argument. The name refers, not to the competition but to the competition's sponsoring body. So in long hand it would read "The senior level hurling competition organised by the County Board of Foo". As this would be a bit unwieldly, contractions must be employed. The current name is IMHO, the most attractive while serving a useful disambiguation purpose. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:09, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
I see that Brocach has ignored my warning about forum shopping and has done precisely the opposite by opening a slew of discussions instead of centralising the discussion here. How exactly is that supoosed to result in a consistent decision? Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
This discussion is only happening because you, Laurel Lodged, suddenly and unilaterally moved dozens of GAA articles away from the WP:COMMONNAME titles where they were created and, in most cases, had sat for years. You left others of exactly the same format unchanged, so consistency clearly matters little to you. I have posted on some - by no means all - of the moved pages to draw attention to the discussion going on at Talk:London GAA Intermediate Football Championship; you will notice that not one of the talk pages on which I have posted is among those listed at London for reversion. The many, many pages that you moved without discussion, never mind consensus, can only be moved back to their correct titles by an admin, because the cack-handed way you moved them resulted in a bot cleanup that adds to the history and so blocks straightforward editor moves. The amount of work that that will involve for one or more patient admins will be tackled more enthusiastically if more people participate in the discussion. That will only happen if people who use the GAA articles are made aware of what you have done and where it is being debated. Brocach (talk) 21:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Carrig and Riverstown GAA article speedily deleted

"An article I created on Carrig and Riverstown GAA was nominated for Speedy Deletion and has now been deleted, speedily, before I could gather my thoughts. I believe that it is as notable as any other GAA club but its only my personal belief. The club is unusual as it straddles the Tipperary Offaly border with both Carrig and Riverstown in Tipp but the club playing for Offaly. Can anyone write an article in a way that makes it notable?

Belmonter (talk) 22:35, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Info on nomination below:

A tag has been placed on Carrig and Riverstown GAA requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organization or company, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Cindy(talk to me) 15:48, 22 December 2012 (UTC)"

Did you keep a copy of the page? If not, can you obtain one from the link above? Which editor nominated this, on the face of it, interesting example of a cross-border club for deletion, and have you engaged with them? Brocach (talk) 22:48, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
What a pity that the article was deleted. It would have been a perfect example of how "Tipperary GAA Clubs" (or "Tipperary GAA hurlers") is not co-extensive with "GAA clubs in County Tipperary" or "GAA hurlers from County Tipperary". I'm sure that some of those Carrig and Riverstown players would be highly insulted to be called "GAA hurlers from County Tipperary" if they were born in County Offaly. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:00, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

FYI

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_January_3#Category:Tipperary_hurlers and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Armagh GAA Senior Leagues Gnevin (talk) 15:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Unjustified change of category name

There is now one anomalous GAA category, "Tipperary GAA hurlers", which has just been renamed from the format followed for every other county, where "county hurlers" is rather than county GAA hurlers". The name of the team that GAA county players play for is, in every single case, one word - the name of the historic county, without adding "GAA". Anyone on this page will also probably know that all hurlers are GAA hurlers. The renaming was effected by an administrator following a discussion [here]. I believe that this was a mistake and have asked the admin to reconsider. If that is not successful I will propose reverting to the long-standing "Tipperary hurlers" category.

There were three move proposals made; the first (by Laurel Lodged, an editor with a history of moving multiple GAA pages without discussion, so this at least was a small advance) was to move to "Hurlers with Tipperary GAA", and this received one other vote in support. The second proposal was to move all GAA sportsperson categories to the format "county GAA sportsperson", which would mean e.g. "Tipperary GAA hurlers", "Cork GAA camogie players", "Tyrone GAA Gaelic footballers", "Dublin GAA Gaelic handballers" - affecting potentially over a hundred categories just at the county level, but categories like this also exist for provinces and for individual GAA clubs, of which there are over 2,500. This second proposal had two votes in favour: the proposer, who may or may not have been joking, and the proposer of the first option who changed his/her vote. There were then three votes in favour of renaming this one category, Tipperary hurlers, to "Tipperary GAA hurlers", with no mention of a wholesale renaming of all GAA player categories. Three editors voted against any renaming. The final score: option 1, 1 vote; option 2, 2 votes; option 3, 3 votes; no change, 3 votes. This was somehow interpreted as justifying the renaming of "Tipperary hurlers" to "Tipperary GAA hurlers".

As an editor of many GAA articles I feel strongly that this move was wrong in itself, in that it creates one category that differs from every other county hurlers category, and in that it is tautologous: all hurlers are GAA hurlers, just as all camogie players, Gaelic football players and Gaelic handballers are GAA people. Bit if I am wrong and the move was right in the case of Tipperary, every other GAA category should be renamed to that format. Do you support that, or do you think that the category should revert to "Tipperary hurlers"? Brocach (talk) 10:54, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal affecting hundreds of GAA articles is being discussed elsewhere

For reasons unknown, an editor - Mabuska - has chosen to sidestep this page and bring to WkiProject Ireland proposals that could result in hundreds of unnecessary changes to GAA articles, all posited on a false claim of a breach of the Irish manual of style in relation to Derry GAA. Anyone interested in the quality of Wikipedia's GAA content should have their say. Brocach (talk) 15:19, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Reasons unknown? What chutzpah! Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:40, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Oh, of course, you think that "Nothing but tumbleweed pass[es] this project". Your conduct in relation to renaming well-established GAA articles tells me that you are pursuing an agenda here that has nothing to do with improving the coverage of the GAA on Wikipedia. Brocach (talk) 23:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
What's that? My hearing aid must be unplugged. Laurel Lodged (talk) 00:08, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

More unnecessary renaming of long-settled GAA categories proposed by the same individual here [1], and an attempt to have me banned here [2]. Brocach (talk) 21:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

This is a disgrace. I heartily support the proposal to ban the same individual and all other disruptive types and their sidekicks. Up with this we should not put. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:32, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Can we talk about this in 1 place . There are 6 discussions going on now , 2 category moves ,2 page moves, 1 at IMOS and 1 here Gnevin (talk) 11:18, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Article and category naming conventions

Thank you everyone for a calm and productive discussion. I have summarised the results lower down this page, with links onwards to the IMOS talk page for final agreement. Please do not make any changes to category names until folks at IMOS have had a chance to comment. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 22:53, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Users may be aware that an editor has, in recent months, changed the names of scores of GAA categories and articles without engaging in discussion at the respective talk pages, even when expressly invited to do so, and has reverted any reversions of that change. After many, at times acrimonious, exchanges an admin has insisted that an attempt be made to resolve matters by consensus at this page, and in the interim, has threatened to block edits on these matters. The GAA articles and categories are thus effectively frozen in different styles. I begin this discussion by seeking consensus on two issues.

Views are sought on the following proposals. For ease of reading, please respond below rather than in the body of this posting. I present the two issues as proposals which, for the avoidance of doubt, I support. They could of course have been presented differently but one editor has to initiate this discussion.

(1) All articles on intra-county GAA competitions should continue to be named according to the common name of the competition, thus "Armagh Intermediate Football Championship", "Wicklow Senior Hurling Championship" etc. without the insertion of "GAA" after the county name, and without the (transient) sponsor name, unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition;

(2) All categories covering people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should continue to be named in the long-established format ["GAA county name" "footballers/hurlers/camogie players/etc."], e.g. "Tipperary footballers", "Wexford camogie players", "Derry hurlers" etc., reflecting the fact that the team name is the name of the GAA county (e.g. Tipperary) without either the addition of "GAA" ("Tipperary GAA hurlers"), or diversion to sub-categories relating to modern administrative counties ("North Tipperary", "South Tipperary", "Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown" etc.). The same would apply to generic categories such as "Sportspeople from County Tipperary": a sportsperson who played on a representative team for his/her GAA county would be listed in the traditional 32-county category rather than in the modern administrative subdivision.

Please indicate below whether you Support or Oppose (1) and (2). While anyone can make alternative proposals on these two issues, I request that comments be kept brief (and polite) for the benefit of admins who will have to assess the outcome. Brocach (talk) 23:25, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for opening this discussion. It was I who suggested a further attempt at reaching consensus - and also I who has promised to block anyone making and/or reverting any such categories until this consensus is reached. Please report any infractions to my talk page if you'd like me to carry through on this. I don't think you will need an admin or anyone else to judge whether a consensus has been reached, but if you do and people want to ask me I will certainly give my opinion. I won't be supporting or opposing any proposals here - that's for you folks who know the topic to do. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 00:14, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Could you split question 1 into two questions? You have accidental put two subjects (County name & sponsor name) into one question making the question useless. The same with question 2, where you have put two subjects (name of sport county & name of county where a sporter hails from) into one question making the question useless. The Banner talk 00:33, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Hang on. In relation to sponsor names, which can change every year, are you actually proposing that in Wikipedia coverage of county championships, there must be a new article created on every occasion when the locally arranged sponsorship changes, in order to incorporate the name of the current sponsor in Wikipedia article titles? I had thought that my proposal that the article should carry the generic name - e.g. "Cork Senior Hurling Championship" - was uncontroversial, but if anyone thinks that a new article must be created every time that a new sponsor comes on board, please feel free to argue for that below.
As for the idea that "Kerry hurlers" etc. needs disambiguation between "men who hurl and come from Kerry" and "men who hurl and hurl for Kerry", I don't think that's a huge problem. There may be men who hurl for Kerry and come from Antrim - I can't think of any at the moment - and there may be men who come from Kerry and hurl for Antrim - stumped again - but in both cases, we are only talking about categories, and one man or one "sporter" (a new word for me, thanks) can easily fit in more than one category. Brocach (talk) 01:03, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
What I suggest is plain this:
Question 1: Should the name of GAA competitions incorporate sponsor names?
Question 2: Should the name of GAA competitions incorporate the official name of the county (i.e. "county name" GAA "competition name)? Oppose if you prefer the popular name of the competition (i.e. "county name" "competition name)? Or the other way round, if you prefer that
Question 3: All categories covering people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should use a name according to the format ["GAA county name" "footballers/hurlers/camogie players/etc."]? Oppose if you prefer the format ["county name" GAA "footballers/hurlers/camogie players/etc."]? Or the other way round, if you prefer that
So far, no real changes in the questions expect split off and neutralisation of the questions. But the last part of the old question works out a bit different:
Question 4: Are categories about the county where a sports person is living related to the GAA-county? Oppose if you think it should be related to the geographical/administrative county they are living in? Example: is Paul Flynn (Gaelic footballer) a sports person from Dublin (plays county football for Dublin GAA) or from Fingal (he lives in Swords, Dublin, in the administrative county Fingal)
On all four question you can now say yes or no. The Banner talk 01:45, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

PLEASE WAIT WITH VOTING TILL WE HAVE AGREED ON THE QUESTIONS TO ASK. AFTER THREE YEARS OF TROUBLE, A DAY MORE DOES NOT MATTER.— Preceding unsigned comment added by The Banner (talk • contribs) 02:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Oppose 1 & 2 - Whether we are ready to proceed or not, the insertion of "GAA" afterwards makes it abundantly clear what exactly they are referring to. The proposals for exclusion of "GAA" in my view is simply so that "Derry GAA hurlers" etc. can be listed as simply "Derry hurlers" in clear attempts to bypass IMoS - and before Scolaire and brocach try to say how is it being violated - it only says usually abbreviated to [[Derry GAA|Derry]] <- this does not work with categories and article titles. Mabuska (talk) 09:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

a rare occasion but I agree with Mabuska here. I think articles of this nature should be appended with 'GAA'. Adding 'GAA' does not detract from the article or its content, only adding clarity. Ask yourself, does adding 'GAA' detract from the article? The answer is *NO.Factocop (talk) 09:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Proposal 1:

Titles of articles on intra-county GAA competitions should not have "GAA" inserted after the county name, i.e. "X Intermediate Football Championship", not ""X GAA Intermediate Football Championship", unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition.

Support

  1. Scolaire (talk) 10:44, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  2. Gnevin (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  3. Brocach (talk) 12:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  4. Hohenloh + 14:06, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  5. HighKing (talk) 16:57, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  6. Finnegas (talk) 21:48, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  7. John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:28, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  8. Qetuth (talk) 13:49, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  9. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:57, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  10. Funny Pika! 18:32, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  11. Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  12. Staberinde (talk) 11:45, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  13. RashersTierney (talk) 19:08, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Unless Derry is exempted then I can't back this proposal. Mabuska (talk) 12:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  2. As per Mabuska. — Jon C.ॐ 14:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  3. The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  4. Common sense. Oppose.Factocop (talk) 09:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Per COMMONNAME, the articles should have the same names as the competitions themselves. All talk about the difference between "GAA counties", "traditional counties" and "administrative counties" is hair-splitting. There is no real possibility of confusion. Scolaire (talk) 10:44, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Proposal 2:

Titles of articles on intra-county GAA competitions should not include the (transient) sponsor name, unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition.

Support

  1. Scolaire (talk) 10:46, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  2. Gnevin (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  3. Mabuska (talk) 12:01, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  4. The Banner talk 12:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  5. Brocach (talk) 12:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  6. — Jon C.ॐ 14:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  7. Hohenloh + 14:07, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  8. HighKing (talk) 16:57, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  9. Finnegas (talk) 21:49, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  10. Weak support. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:32, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  11. John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:28, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  12. Qetuth (talk) 13:58, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  13. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:45, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  14. Funny Pika! 18:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  15. Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  16. Staberinde (talk) 11:46, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  17. RashersTierney (talk) 19:09, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Many of these articles are left untouched for years. I myself have had occasion to remove a sponsor's name several years after they withdrew their sponsorship. Scolaire (talk) 10:46, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

This does not outrule the possibility that the lead might incorporate the sponsored name as "(also known as Foo Widgets Intergalactic Handball Face Off)" in the lead. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:30, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Am mindful of the Aviva Stadium controversy. If that's what they want to call it, and they trouser the money from the sponsor, who are we to gainsay them? Can they realy have jam on both sides? Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:34, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Naming issues of buildings is not in the scope of the present set of questions under discussion. The Banner talk 12:23, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
As LL says, this should not rule out mention in the lead as appropriate, nor redirects as appropriate. --Qetuth (talk) 13:58, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Proposal 3:

Titles of categories of people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not have "GAA" inserted after the county name, i.e. "X hurlers", not "X GAA hurlers"; "X Gaelic footballers", not "X GAA Gaelic footballers". [note: second example added for clarity, 09:50, 3 February 2013 (UTC)]

Support

  1. Scolaire (talk) 10:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  2. Gnevin (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  3. Brocach (talk) 12:44, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  4. Finnegas (talk) 21:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  5. John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:29, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  6. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:47, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  7. Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  8. HighKing (talk) 13:46, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  9. RashersTierney (talk) 19:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Unless Derry is exempted then I can't back this proposal. Mabuska (talk) 12:01, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  2. As per Mabuska. — Jon C.ॐ 14:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  3. The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  4. 'X Gaelic Footballers' is fine and pretty obvious but I think 'X Hurlers' should be appended with GAA as it is a minority sport with little global following.Factocop (talk) 09:54, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Per COMMONNAME. Alan Brogan is not known as a "Dublin GAA Gaelic footballer" but as a "Dublin Gaelic footballer" or just as a "Dublin footballer". There is no real danger of confusion, therefore no need for disambiguation. Scolaire (talk) 10:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

In every case, including Derry, the name of the team that inter-county players play or played for is the county name without the addition of "GAA". To make a special case of Derry would be to import a political issue into a sporting context where it simply isn't an issue - there has never been a Londonderry GAA, while Derry as a GAA county has been around for more than a century and its name is simply a fact. Some people may dislike the name but Wikipedia does not have an opinion about it; if anyone finds terms like "Derry footballers" or "Derry hurlers" somehow controversial or offensive, they should probably avoid articles about Ulster GAA matters and/or up the strength of their medication. Brocach (talk) 20:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with Derry being used in the title. I just find that the proposal is not worded to avoid confusion with other sports (i.e. association football and Derry City FC), unlike the previous two. Ideally, categories should be kept as "Derry Gaelic footballers". Funny Pika! 18:52, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

You are quite right! And that is how the cats are currently named. Would anybody object if I retrospectively added '"X Gaelic footballers", not "X GAA Gaelic footballers"' to the proposal? Scolaire (talk) 20:03, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Proposal 4:

Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should be categorised according to the county for which the player played, i.e. "Category: X GAA hurlers" or "Category: X hurlers" should include people who have hurled for X, regardless of their place of birth or residence. Players who have played for more than one county should be included in both county categories. Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not be categorised according to the county in which the player was born or the county or counties in which they resided during their playing career.

Support

  1. Scolaire (talk) 10:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  2. Gnevin (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  3. Mabuska (talk) 12:04, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  4. Brocach (talk) 12:46, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  5. — Jon C.ॐ 14:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  6. Hohenloh + 14:15, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  7. HighKing (talk) 17:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  8. Finnegas (talk) 21:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  9. See Proposal 7 below also. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:37, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  10. John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  11. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:31, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  12. Funny Pika! 19:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  13. Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  14. Staberinde (talk) 11:47, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  15. RashersTierney (talk) 19:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. The Banner talk 14:14, 5 February 2013 (UTC) as it are two different questions presented as one question

Discussion

Proposal 5:

In any of the above cases, the county in question should be the GAA county, not the "current administrative" county, i.e. "Tipperary", not "South Tipperary"; "Dublin", not "Fingal".

Support

  1. Scolaire (talk) 13:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  2. Gnevin (talk) 13:32, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  3. — Jon C.ॐ 14:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  4. Hohenloh + 14:13, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  5. HighKing (talk) 16:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  6. Finnegas (talk) 21:53, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  7. John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  8. Brocach (talk) 16:24, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  9. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:38, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  10. Funny Pika! 19:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  11. Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  12. Staberinde (talk) 11:48, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  13. Mabuska (talk) 20:54, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  14. RashersTierney (talk) 19:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. The Banner talk 14:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC) because of the dodgy question 4, the only thing left is to oppose

Discussion

Proposal 6:

Derry GAA should be exempted from all the above proposals, and IMoS should be amended to clarify as such.

Support

  1. Mabuska (talk) 11:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  2. — Jon C.ॐ 14:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  3. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 15:04, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  4. The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  5. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:22, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  6. Common sense. Can see no sensical reason for opposing this, unless there is a hidden agenda here.Factocop (talk) 09:57, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Scolaire (talk) 10:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  2. Gnevin (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  3. Brocach (talk) 12:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  4. Finnegas (talk) 21:54, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  5. John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:31, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  6. Qetuth (talk) 14:07, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  7. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:49, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  8. Funny Pika! 18:59, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  9. Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  10. HighKing (talk) 13:45, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  11. RashersTierney (talk) 19:15, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

The Irish Manual of Style says that Derry GAA will usually be abbreviated to Derry. There is no reason believe that the word "usually" excludes article or category names. Scolaire (talk) 10:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

The IMoS part that you are referring to that you yourself reworded states "and Derry GAA (which will usually be abbreviated to "[[Derry GAA|Derry]]" - how does this apply to article or category names? In all technicality it doesn't and can only apply to in-text content in an article that is wiki-linked. You will need to propose an amendment to the IMoS that clarifies it to work for you - however I oppose any such possible proposal when the issue when I raised it found 4 editors (including me) agreeing that there needs to be clarification that it shouldn't apply to categories, templates, and hash links etc as opposed to 3 (Scolaire, Gnevin, and Brocach) who disagreed. Mabuska (talk) 11:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
The part I am referring to says "Where an entity uses a particular name, regardless of whether it is Derry or Londonderry, use that name for the entity". It doesn't say "use it in some places and not in others". The Derry team is an entity. It uses the name "Derry". Therefore we use "Derry". If you put a proposal to change that part, and it didn't get a consensus, that's not my fault or anybody else's. Scolaire (talk) 14:04, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
In fact the Derry/Derry GAA issue whilst related, as far as I am concerned should not have been put in with this one as the Derry/Derry GAA issue focused on an actual part of the IMoS that lacks clarification and was added in without any discussion or consensus. Mabuska (talk) 11:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure what your issue is with Derry GAA. Can you outline a few samples ? Gnevin (talk) 13:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  • There is no good reason to exempt Derry. The rules work very well and made sense. People seem to want to makes things more complicated then they need to be.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:32, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
    Well actually there is as it would be misleading to just have derry there because it could mislead people into thinking that co. Londonderry is erroniously called co. derry when it is just the name of the GAA county. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 08:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
    I don't see a problem as long as the context of the article is within Gaelic games, as per IMOS. For me it's either all the counties follow "Dublin GAA" or "Dublin GAA|Dublin", not just some - else we're just adding pointless politics into the matter. Funny Pika! 19:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
The infobox for Joe Brolly, to take one example, says that he was born in Dungiven, County Londonderry. There is no question of his GAA career being used to change the name of his county of birth. There is no misleading going on. I don't even see how readers can be misled. "County Londonderry" is a convention used by Wikipedia editors. It is not apparent to readers. Readers cannot be "misled" into thinking the county is called Derry, because it is called Derry by millions of people. There is a long-standing convention that the geographical county is called "Londonderry" on WP, and an equally long-standing convention that the GAA county is called "Derry". This is not a new notion that somebody has sprung upon us in the last few weeks. Scolaire (talk) 20:18, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
In fact, that is why I suggested the edit to IMOS in the first place: that Derry GAA was an example of where "Derry" had been used for many years without causing problems. And there is no reason why it should cause problems in the future. Scolaire (talk) 20:48, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
In regards to Joe Brolly should it not be in the lede of the article that he is from Dungiven, County Londonderry, NI? Biography articles tend to start along those lines. Mabuska (talk) 22:46, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I will post a full reasoning for this proposal later. Mabuska (talk) 11:24, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Reasoning for this proposal

The problems with the above proposals in regards to the Derry GAA is the obvious fact that it is far too ambiguous especially if used outside of a GAA article. There are two editors who are vocal in their opposition to my proposal, and one of them focuses quite a lot on the term "GAA county". In regards to that:

  • I have seen no proof and can find none at present that states the GAA created an entirely separate and distinct county structure of it's own. Rather all I have seen including on Wikipedia is that the GAA based itself on the county system used in Ireland at that time - 32 counties, one of which is officially called Londonderry and has been since it's very creation.
  • Obviously the county system has changed since the GAA's formation, with Tipperary being made into North and South, and Dublin not even existing anymore having being split into 3 - yet the GAA didn't change it's structure to follow suit as it isn't bound by government decisions on boundaries and counties.
  • After the aims of preserving Ireland's Gaelic sporting past, the GAA is an organisation that extols Irish nationalism, with it deeply embedded to its core, which is evident to this day in the naming of it's clubs, organisations and tournaments. It even split at one time between members who backed constitutional nationalism or militant nationalism. Thus it has always called the county of Londonderry, Derry, as that is what Irish nationalists call it.
  • Living in a nationalist majority part of County Londonderry I have spoken to mates and colleagues who have told me explicitly that Derry GAA represents "County Derry" as in County Londonderry not a separate unique creation.

What I'm getting at with the above points is that I have seen no evidence that shows that the GAA created a brand new county entity called Derry. Rather the Derry GAA county board is a county board that represents GAA clubs in County Londonderry. The Derry GAA article's history section also gives the impression (to me anyways) that the county board represents County Londonderry rather than a brand new county created by the GAA. This is also backed up for me by Rannpháirtí anaithnid, an edit that was opposed and reworded by Brocach who made argument once again of this distinct "GAA county".

Thus the arguments about a distinct unique "GAA county" of Derry from that of County Londonderry I feel are rather moot and appears to be either original research that Brocach has added to many GAA articles, and/or a Wikipedia neologism invented for the purpose of pushing the usage of Derry in place of Londonderry in regards to the county area.

Having said that, despite the fact Derry GAA represents County Londonderry, as the sport and it's participants and supporters have always used Derry for it, I have no issue with that and have never voiced a problem with that on Wikipedia. The problem for me however lies in the ambiguity Scolaire recently added into the IMoS with "Derry GAA (which will usually be abbreviated to [[Derry GAA|Derry]])". The edit makes perfect sense in-text within a GAA article, especially if it's used unpiped in the first instance of the term "Derry GAA"'s usage, I have no problem with that. The problem is that it has been used since to backup arguments to push "Derry" in place of "Derry GAA", and also does not make sense for links and categories that refer to Derry GAA.

According to the IMoS we use Derry for the city and Londonderry for the county. Despite recent undiscussed additions that have no community consensus, the Derry GAA is the GAA in County Londonderry. Using just "Derry" instead of "Derry GAA" for me and others implies an attempt to have the county called Derry by the back-door.

Unfortunately the following will probably seem like an ad hominem statement, however it is what gave ground to my belief that the primary focus of some editors is to bypass IMoS and impose Derry for the county. The prime example for my concerns is Brocach's edits in Derry GAA related articles and the IMoS prior to this discussion - which included trying to replace County Londonderry categories from Derry GAA related articles and adding County Derry ones - this for the proposing of deleting Londonderry ones and this for deletion of his County Derry creations. Several weeks after Cydebot deleted all the County Derry categories, Brocach added a "#Derry" to a "See also" link in most or all Derry GAA club articles, example. I do accept that I could well be wrong in regards to Brocach's edits and intentions, however my experience suggests otherwise and means I am finding it hard to assume good faith on this issue.

In regards to that link I had made a proposal were we used "#Derry GAA", however there was no consensus, and Brocach and Scolaire both oppossed a counter-proposal from myself where I suggested piping "List_of_Gaelic_games_clubs_in_Ireland#Derry" with "List_of_Derry GAA clubs". As it is clear that there is no consensus for or against Proposal 6, the onus is upon all here to work for a compromise that meets the concerns of all involved and we can all agree to. I had already proposed a couple, and no doubt there are many others that could be proposed by editors. An idea could be only using "Derry GAA" in the form of a pipe where the link or category may be used in a non-GAA article etc. No doubt there is a multitude of other possibilities that can be suggested by others. Compromise is needed. Mabuska (talk) 22:46, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Mabuska, I agree with you that "GAA county" stuff is sometimes overplayed. We had 2 lengthy CFD discussions on the topic last autumn (CFD Sept 26 and October 19. In the first discussion, Brocachj acknowledged that "The differences between the 32 GAA counties (in Ireland) and the (former) 32 local government counties are so slight, and so variable from year to year, that for most purposes they can be considered as pretty much identical."
I think that view is quite widely shared, which is why LL's desire to refer to "Cork GAA hurlers" etc has not achieved consensus. But it's also irrelevant here.
We are not discussing the GAA county, or even whether it exists. We are discussing the county board, and the team it fields. And you are making really heavy going of something that's actually quite simple.
Forget for a moment that this is anything to with a county; it is a private sporting organisation, which manages a sport in a given area. That area may be whatever it may be, and the sporting organisation can call itself whatever it likes. It could, like Apprentice Boys of Derry, ignore the formal name of the area and choose an unofficial name; or it could name itself after another area (Inishmurray GAA?); or it could make something up. "Electric Crocodile GAA", if it so chose.
None of that is any of our business on Wikipedia. In naming articles, we use the WP:COMMONNAME and disambiguate as needed. So the article title spells out the name in full ("Derry GAA") ... but when the context is clear, we can skip the GAA bit. So if a paragraph in some non-GAA context makes a passing ref, we spell out "Derry GAA" in full ... but if it is in a GAA context, we can skip the GAA bit.
The specific issue that troubles you is a remarkably narrow one, and does not reflect well on any of the editors involved. We don't need a ruleset to sort out some sort of a compromise on that one. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:52, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I fully agree with Mabuska here. This does appear to be a back door edit to go around IMOS. I do not understand why we would not want to remove the confusion and ambiguity around 'Derry', 'Derry GAA' and 'County Londonderry'. Ofcourse its not confusing for us, and those versed on the topic but it is the reader here that we are trying to appease. So any point of 'its not confusing' or 'not misleading' is a waste of characters. Please, please, please apply some common sense for once in this project!!!!Factocop (talk) 10:00, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Factocop, I'm all in favour of commonsense. I just don't think that we need to spell out every instance of it. That way lies a morass of instruction creep which makes it harder for editors to understand the principles. Much better to continue to assume that editors will respect the spirit of WP:IMOS, and deal directly with issues caused by those who ignore it.
What we have here is simply one editor (Broach) who has been trying to promote the usage of "Derry" as a name for the county. Hir attempts to rename the categories all failed, so now he has been trying to push the same objective in a difft area. Instead of Brocach's [[List of Gaelic games clubs in Ireland#Derry|List of Gaelic Athletic Association clubs in Derry]] we can write [[List of Gaelic games clubs in Ireland#Derry|List of Derry Gaelic Athletic Association clubs]] or [[List of Gaelic games clubs in Ireland#Derry|List of Derry GAA clubs]]. Simple solution, works for all POVs. Why do we need a rule to achieve this? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Mabuska, that's a very important bit of history you've given us there. I have to confess that throughout the various discussions over the past weeks I was never fully aware of the background. And it does matter. And it is both relevant and important to this discussion. Those edits, cat creations and CfDs were wrong. They were wrong, not because they broke some rule, but because they were against the spirit of compromise that we have all tried to maintain on the Derry/Londonderry question for the last nine years. And if an edit was made to IMOS in an attempt to justify going against a long-standing convention – and I can fully understand why you think it was – that was also wrong.
Having said that, I agree with BHG: there is a difference between compromise and iron-clad rules. "Derry for the city and Londonderry for the county" is a convention, not a rule. I believe that all of us over the years have worked hard at preserving that convention, even when it meant reverting edits that our own personal POVs would have made us tend to leave. Another convention, that was never explicitly mentioned on IMOS before this current controversy arose, is that in GAA matters, the county is referred to as "Derry". For all of the nine years, as far as I am aware, that convention was observed without causing any trouble. If, in a case like that, an editor starts doing things against the spirit of compromise, the answer is not to change the "rules" but to follow the dispute resolution procedure. In the first place, changing the "rules" will not deter a determined editor; in the second, it complicates things for those who want to edit articles, without any obvious benefit to the reader; and in the third, many (most?) editors are unaware of IMOS, or don't look it up before editing. If we consider edits to be disruptive, we start by discussing, then go to the dispute resolution noticeboard, then to AN/I and then, if need be, to formal mediation or arbitration. I believe that making Derry an exception to these proposals would simply create an anomaly which would confuse the reader, and would not deter an editor who was determined to be disruptive.
You are right, of course, that "GAA counties" have no real existence. It's just a shorthand. Unfortunately, it is used in different ways at different times. Sometimes, it is used for places where borders are not identical e.g. Ballaghaderreen is in County Roscommon, Ballaghaderreen GAA club plays in Mayo. Other times it is used to mean the "traditional counties" or "32 counties" e.g. "Dublin" refers to the three administrative areas plus Dublin city. In the case of Derry, it is used to refer to the aforementioned convention of using "Derry" as the county name in GAA matters, which I believe has resulted in peace more often than in war over the years.
Apologies for the length of this, but I believe that such a detailed and well-argued rationale deserves an equally detailed response. Scolaire (talk) 10:04, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed explanation Mabuska. It's a pity you had to resort to blaming "nationalists" - that's a tired argument. We should have our own version of Godwin's law for whenever this argument is used. It's a backhanded anti-AGF argument and we've all been around long enough to know if this is the case, rather than label as a nationalist anyone who disagrees with your opinion or !votes differently.
That said, the Londonderry/Derry naming convention has survived because the rule is simple. One for the county, the other for the city. For me, the question is whether we should refer to the GAA administrative area by what it is commonly known as, or whether we should acknowledge that since the area is referred to as a "county" by the GAA, we should stick with the IMOS conventions already agreed in the past.
I've a lot of sympathy for the arguments for using the term Londonderry, based on "official name" arguments. But in this case, I believe the difference is that the GAA owns the "official name" for their administrative area, and as BHG stated, can call it anything they like. For that reason, I don't see how we can not call it Derry.
That leaves the question of appending "GAA" to the name. There's a number of arguments for and against. I believe the strongest reason to append "GAA" is to add clarity to titles - "Derry GAA hurlers" instead of "Derry hurlers" for example. The main problem with that suggestion is that for people who know what hurling is, the GAA is superfluous. And for people who don't know what hurling is, adding GAA doesn't clarify anything - it would be better if the suggestion was to expand to "Derry Gaelic Athletic Association hurlers".
On balance, I believe the titles and articles should reflect common naming and usage where possible. Editors can then get to the articles they want to see by searching using common terms and names. --HighKing (talk) 13:44, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

@ HK - no-one is arguing for the use of Londonderry in place of Derry in GAA articles and I did not blame nationalists, I was explaining a short history for those editors who have voted who may not understand the history in regards to why the GAA call it Derry, and that Brocach's "GAA county" appears to be more or less a neologism.

@ BHG - 5 other editors agree with this proporsal, so obviously other editors feel similar to me. The reason for my long post above and the focus on "GAA county" is that outside of Brocach and LL's naming issue with each other, I was involved in a separate specific naming issue revolving around Brocach and Derry GAA articles that ended up having to be lumped into this one as the results of this would obviously affect it.

"In naming articles, we use the WP:COMMONNAME and disambiguate as needed. So the article title spells out the name in full ("Derry GAA") ... but when the context is clear, we can skip the GAA bit. So if a paragraph in some non-GAA context makes a passing ref, we spell out "Derry GAA" in full ... but if it is in a GAA context, we can skip the GAA bit." - I have no problem with that, however to clarify: if a non-GAA has the following link: "List_of_Gaelic_games_clubs_in_Ireland#Derry" we pipe it "List_of_Gaelic_games_clubs_in_Ireland#Derry GAA"? Mabuska (talk) 12:21, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

You suggestion about non-GAA contexts I think is a good one and should be expanded (although I don't think adding "GAA" is the correct disambiguation, I'd rather spell it out in full). --HighKing (talk) 14:15, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I really have to question the motives of the 11 opposed to this suggestion. Doesnt make sense really.
@HK, for people who know what hurling is would be those in the minority given that GAA is not a globally played sport. My first thoughts would be Paddy McCourt if someone mentioned 'Derry footballer', thats why I would of thought appending 'GAA' makes sense. Avoids any confusion that people might think that the Governmental County is called Derry and removes ambiguity. Simple. So if the 11 opposed could change their votes, that would be great.Factocop (talk) 12:53, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Please read fully what I actually said. If you don't know what "hurling" is, appending "GAA" doesn't help explain anything. As to the point about generating confusion around the county getting named as "Derry", I have some sympathy for that. But we've other compromises (even worse in my opinion) that editors just get on with - the naming of the article "Republic of Ireland" springs to mind when the correct name is just simply "Ireland". The "true name" or even the COMMONNAME sometimes isn't even enough... --HighKing (talk) 14:15, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Don't forget ignoring the correct name and true name of Londonderry which is ignored aswell. Your right that simply 'GAA' will not help those who do not know what 'GAA' is and so perhaps in that case expand to the full Gaelic Athletic Association. HK, what exactly your reason for opposition? you seem to have provided a reasoning and understanding for the proposal but have opposed it non the less. The problem here is that GAA is probably known by about 6million people, and 6 billion have never heard of the sport.Factocop (talk) 16:37, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Don't jump into speculation and original research Factocop.
Whilst it is off-topic, that RoI issue isn't quite a problem elsewhere on Wikipedia, for example the United Mexican States, Hellenic Republic, People's Republic of China, and the Republic of China to name some states. Though as stated that is off-topic.
On topic, that suggestion I made is based on what BHG said in response to my reasoning's for this proposal, and it should be implemented in non-GAA related articles where a link or category may crop up as it would likely be out of context. Though Facotcop makes a good point on Paddy McCourt - he is a "Derry footballer" as in a soccer/football player from Londonderry - it can lead to confusion if using "Derry footballer" on it's own when referring to the Derry GAA. Mabuska (talk) 16:45, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Maybe use "Derry Gaelic footballer" to disambiguate? Mabuska (talk) 16:47, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps this proposals needs to be modified.Factocop (talk) 17:24, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Proposal 3 is: '"X Gaelic footballers", not "X GAA Gaelic footballers"'. If that were adopted, there would be no need to make Derry an exception.
As regards [[List of Gaelic games clubs in Ireland#Derry|List of Derry GAA clubs]], would it not be simpler just to take that link out of the "See also's" altogether? I really don't see what it adds. If the link is to remain, it cannot have "#Derry GAA" in it without changing the section heading in the List to "Derry GAA", which would leave it out of synch with the other section headings. For that reason, I prefer BrownHairedGirl's proposal (the one I've just cited). Scolaire (talk) 18:49, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Proposal 7

The scope of the category structure "Sportspeople from County Foo" (e.g. Category:Sportspeople from County Galway) should be defined as "Notable sportspeople who were born in the Irish county of Foo". This structure to be independent of the GAA county structure. So a person can be born in one county but may play for a different (or multiple) GAA county (e.g. Tony Reddin). Furthermore, the structure to permit the creation of categories for all modern administrative counties (e.g. Fingal, South Dublin and North Tipperary) as well as the "traditional" counties.

Support

  1. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:57, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  2. The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  3. Mabuska (talk) 16:49, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Wrong venue, see Discussion Brocach (talk) 23:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  2. John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:33, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  3. Scolaire (talk) 09:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC).
  4. Qetuth (talk) 14:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  5. Finnegas (talk) 14:15, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  6. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:51, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  7. HighKing (talk) 17:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  8. Hohenloh + 18:39, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  9. Snappy (talk) 01:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  10. RashersTierney (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

@Laurel Lodged, as this is not a discussion about GAA categories it does not belong here. Please find an appropriate venue and alert the Irish sports talk pages, to see how many people share your enthusiasm for splitting or multiplying "Sportspeople from County Dublin" into "Sportspeople from Final", "Sportspeople from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown" and "Sportspeople from Dublin" (and so on). But you may know the answer to that. Brocach (talk) 23:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I disagree that this is the wrong venue. I think it's exactly the right venue and if the idea is a poor one, the opposes will outnumber the supports. Don't stifle discussion - let it happen (as has been going on very fruitfully so far) and allow the consensus to emerge (as is also occurring.) I don't doubt that the collective wisdom here will see us through, but that means allowing a range of questions to be put, to see which do and which do not gather support. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 00:00, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Strange, Brocach, because this is in fact your question 2, part 2! The Banner talk 01:10, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
No it isn't. I didn't have any "question 2, part 2". And this is a GAA talk page, while this proposal relates to all sportspeople including garrison games. Brocach (talk) 01:15, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Your question two, with the second part in bold: (2) All categories covering people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should continue to be named in the long-established format ["GAA county name" "footballers/hurlers/camogie players/etc."], e.g. "Tipperary footballers", "Wexford camogie players", "Derry hurlers" etc., reflecting the fact that the team name is the name of the GAA county (e.g. Tipperary) without either the addition of "GAA" ("Tipperary GAA hurlers"), or diversion to sub-categories relating to modern administrative counties ("North Tipperary", "South Tipperary", "Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown" etc.). The same would apply to generic categories such as "Sportspeople from County Tipperary": a sportsperson who played on a representative team for his/her GAA county would be listed in the traditional 32-county category rather than in the modern administrative subdivision. The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Read it again, slowly: what I said was completely different from what Laurel Lodged proposes; I want the 32 traditional counties, he wants your Fingals and South Tipps. This is not my proposal, I don't support it and I don't agree with Kim that a GAA talk page is a good venue to discuss a generic sports category. Brocach (talk) 16:34, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that timely intervention Kim. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:46, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  • This is a horrible idea. We have never agreed that "x sportspeople" should be limited to people born there. On the other hand, we have guidelines that say the location of birth is generally trivial. We categorize people by where they were raised. Thus someone born to the US Ambassador to Turkey in Ankara, but raised in New Jersey goes in from New Jersey categories, not categories related to being from Ankara. On the other hand, if someone was born in Washington DC because their father was the Irish Ambassador to the US, but was raised in Dublin, I see no reason why they should not be classified as a sportperson from Dublin.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:36, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Suppose the ambassador's son played hurling. Suppose futher that the ambassador was posted to the UN in New York for a term of 3 years. Suppose further that the son played hurling in Gaelic Park, the Bronx for New York GAA. Is such a notable person entitled to be included in the category Category:New York hurlers? Is he entitled to be a member of Category:Sportspeople from New York? Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:51, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  • As far as I can see this proposal is not about GAA, GAA having been covered in the earlier proposals. Nor do I see Irish sportpeople in general being categorised by "GAA counties", just by counties. I oppose this because neither has it anything to to with generally accepted and well recognised WP conventions. It is just one editor desperately looking for an opportunity to ride his own little hobby-horse, since he's been threatened with an indef block if he causes further disruption by indulging his obsession in the way he has usually done in the past. It is normal in the real world, as well as on WP, to refer to the traditional counties of Ireland, not current administrative divisions. Scolaire (talk) 09:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Query Is it correct that Tony Reddin is in the "Sportspeople from County Galway" category? If it is not correct, should he be in the "Sportspeople from County Tipperary" category? Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:44, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
I support this question, as it supports more sports then GAA-sports or Brocachs "garrison sports" (whatever he may mean with that). It also includes table tennis, boxing, sailing, athletics, American Football, sumo wrestling, skating, weight lifting and so on. The Banner talk 12:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

It seems to be the case that the rationale for Brocach's vote and Scolaire's vote was that the proposal ought not to be present. Kim has ruled that it ought to be present. The basis for the oppose votes has therefore disappeared. I would ask both to strike their votes. Should they later wish to insert later votes, they're welcome to do so - on the merits or demerits of the the proposal. Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:45, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

No. I have said that your question should remain and they have opposed your suggestion. I infer that they would prefer the question not be asked, but seeing as it has been they are not in favour. You don't have to agree that their arguments for opposing are sound or even logical. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 13:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment. This proposal may be in the wrong place, but it s misconceived wherever it is. There is a long-standing consensus at CFD against categorising people by where they were born. Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Residence, "the place of birth is rarely notable". The same guideline notes that People are sometimes categorized by notable residence, in the form People from Foo (not "Natives of Foo"), regardless of ethnicity, heritage, or nationality.
    So, let's take the fictional example of Sean Citizen. Sean's parents lived in County Leitrim, which has no general hospital, so he was born in Sligo General Hospital, and he lived in Leitrim until he was 4. He then moved with his family to County Clare, where he went to school in Ennis. Having done well in his Leaving Cert, Sean studied Ology at a university in Dublin, and he got his first job in Cork city, where he lived for 7 years. Aged nearly 30, Sean moved to Dundalk, where he spent the rest of his life. In Dundalk, he realised that his long-standing attempts to get onto a local club's Gaelic Football team were futile, so he took to studying team management. After a few years of managing a local club which he took from no-hope status to the county championship, Sean became manager of the Louth county team. The team's improved standing under his management generated quite a bit of news coverage over the years.
    Now, which county was Sean from? Leitrim, Sligo, Clare, Dublin, Cork or Louth?
    Answer: Louth. Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Residence, it is is Sean's only "notable residence". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Query Do you propose to insert this incisive scope definition into each member of the "Sportspeople from..." tree structure? Remind me to amend the Ryan Giggs article. Apparently some editors think that he's a sportsperson from Wales. We now know that he's actually a sportsperson from Manchester. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:04, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Not a great example; he clearly belongs in Welsh categories as well, since he plays for Wales. Closer to home, a Gaelic footballer who has played for two counties appears in both "Sportspeople from" categories. Brocach (talk) 17:23, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
@LL, I'm not to to be able to support your desire to categorise Sean Citizen on the basis of his two-day stay in Sligo General. Butit ain't defining.
I do not intend to insert that explanation anywhere other than here. It is simply an illustration of a point clearly made in an existing guideline, so there is no point in repeating it elsewhere, particularly since it seems to be only LL who has a problem with understanding the status quo.
As to Ryan Giggs, there is no need to edit his article, nor the article on any other sportsperson. But Category:Manchester United F.C. players should be a subacat of Category:Sportspeople from Manchester, just as Category:Dublin hurlers is a subcat of Category:Sportspeople from County Dublin. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)
I had a look at the ManU site for their First Team. I scanned the first 6 players before I got bored. They are Ángelo Henríquez (Chilian national), David De Gea (Spanish national), Rafael (Brazilian national), Patrice Evra (Senegalese national), Phil Jones (British national), Rio Ferdinand (British national). Despite the fact that some of them are British nationals, none used the "Sportspeople from Manchester" cat. Only Rio used the "Sportspeople from" cat, but that was for London. Is that because he was born in Peckham do you think? Even Matt Busby has Category:Sportspeople from Bellshill in his cat list, not Manchester. Yet you would have us force every player for the ManU to be a member of "Sportspeople from Manchester". Wow. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:03, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Not that I know or care much about ground football, the MUFC players category belongs to the "Sportspeople from Manchester" category. Where the players concerned are listed in categories as having played for other clubs, say Liverpool, those club categories should also belong to e.g. "Sportspeople from Liverpool". Many sportspeople will belong - directly, or by reference to a club affiliation - to two or more "from" categories. Brocach (talk) 22:51, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
LL, did you set out to misrepresent me, or did you just not bother to read what I wrote?
Brocach gets the point quite clearly. It's about parenting categories. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:59, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
LL actually has it right on this one. Matt Busby is in Category:Sportspeople from Bellshill, Michael Carrick is in Category:Sportspeople from Newcastle upon Tyne, and Graham Lee (jockey), who has not played any competitive sport for Galway, is in Category:Sportspeople from County Galway. If this proposal gets consensus, there is no reason why Eamonn Coghlan should not be in "Category:Sportspeople from Fingal". If this proposal gets consensus. Scolaire (talk) 00:13, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Eamonn Coghlan was born and raised in Drimnagh and retired from running in 1988, before Fingal was created in 1993. What's his Fingal connection? Snappy (talk) 00:55, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
My mistake. He lives or lived in Castleknock before or after Fingal was created. Change it to "Seán Citizen", then. Scolaire (talk) 01:08, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Scolaire, even if LL did achieve a local consenus here, this page can't override Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Residence. And AFAICS, none of your examples are of someone who was just born in a place. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:44, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
I probably should have kept my mouth shut! Yes, I agree 100% about "just born in a place". Paul McGrath is in Category:Sportspeople from Dublin (city) although he was born in England. To that extent, the wording of the proposal is against Naming conventions. But the proposal itself is about where people are "from" – however you read that – not what teams they played for. I felt that all the talk about cats and subcats and soccer clubs was muddying the waters. My intention was to draw a line under all that. Maybe we can draw a line under it now. Scolaire (talk) 09:43, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Oops! Paul McGrath is in Category:Sportspeople from London too. Yes, I definitely think we should draw a line under this. Scolaire (talk) 10:29, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
When Scolaire says "draw a line under", what he really means is "let's brush this under the carpet". This is because the addition of soccer has forced editors to think outside the hermeticaly sealed world of the GAA. In so doing, they have been faced with the realisation that the innovative categorisation BHG would have us use is just wrong. "From" really does mean from. "Played a significant part of their career in" is fine, but it's not what the category is for. To claim that the scope of the category structure is the latter is to pervert it's obvious and simple structure. The ManU examples demonstrate that not one ManU fan (and I believe that there might possibly be more of them than there are of all GAA fans put together) believes that "Sportspeople from Foo" relates to the club. To say otherwise is to introduce OR. Naturally, if it's wrong for Ryan Giggs, it's also wrong for Tony Reddin. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:27, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
LL, if you had read what I wrote you woukd see that there is nothing innovative in what I propose. I am simply drawing attention to a long-standing categorisation guideline at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Residence. Please take the time to read it. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:02, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
In a touching effort to bolster BHG's flagging argument, Brocach has added ManU FC as a child of "Sportspeople from Manchester". Touching as this may be, does the community consider this to be an out-of-process move that is unhelpful to the discussion? Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:14, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Stop being a silly drama queen. Nothing was moved, so the question of out-of-process does not arise. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:30, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Per the strictures (below) of Kim, I am limiting what I say here to one new comment: There is obviously minimal support for limiting this category to birthplace in respect of GAA sportspeople, but I do not believe that a consensus here on what Laurel Lodged characterises as a tumbleweed page should bind all WP users (very few of whom will have seen this) in respect of other countries and sports. Birthplace is kind of significant in respect of the GAA in ways that do not apply in respect of commercially run sports; in almost every case the birth county is the same as the played-for county, but (in the GAA at least) it is important to provide flexibility for those who play at inter-county level for more than one county. Brocach (talk) 19:49, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

As I write this, the actual voting is 2 in favour of this proposal, 9 against. I see no evidence of anyone's mind being changed by the exchanges above so can I ask that you think very carefully before adding further to this discussion. Thus far it seems wildly unlikely that extending it will change the voting. It does however seem likely that further contributions will become more and more tendentious and argumentative. If anyone has any new lines of argument to pursue, or if new voters feel the need to explain their votes, no problem. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 14:29, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll just add that these categories stem from LL's desire to use the administrative counties wherever a location calls for a name. Just noticed that the "An Post" website has a "Check an address" page. I note that any address in say, Nenagh, is listed as "Co. Tipperary". The town council is also listed as Co. Tipperary. Fingal County Council offices are also listed as Co. Dublin. I believe that it's too early to use the newer administrative county names as they haven't caught on, and COMMONNAMES are the traditional county names. --HighKing (talk) 14:03, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
What an interesting but inaccurate opinion! Nenagh: Nenagh (...) is the county town of North Tipperary in Ireland. Nenagh County Council: That page is on a website marked Copyright © 2011, North Tipperary County Council. And have you ever realised that a postal adress does not have to reflect local boundaries or changed subdivisions? The Banner talk 14:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Ho Hum. So rather than comment on the Postal Addresses I've linked to that all use "Co. Tipperary" or "Co. Dublin", you'd rather label it as "interesting but inaccurate opinion". How can it be an opinion if it's listed exactly as I've described? Maybe everyone's "opinion" is inaccurate? Note that I didn't say that the name of the council wasn't North Tipperary or Fingal, but that the postal address or "location" still uses the traditional county name (or COMMONNAME). --HighKing (talk) 14:25, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
HighKing, I fear that you are wasting your time trying to point LL to WP:COMMONNAME. He remains fixated on the view that current administrative counties are the only "real" counties, and the counties in common usage don't exist. It's bad case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:56, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
We're going off topic a bit, but I wonder how some editors will cope in 2014 when North and South Tipperary County Councils and their respective counties are abolished, and County Tipperary rises again! Snappy (talk) 17:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Closed grouping

Seeing as the the results of this will no doubt be enshrined in IMoS and proposal 5 currently directly affects IMoS in regards to the Derry issue as far as I am aware I am placing notifications in the Ireland, IMoS, and Northern Ireland WikiProjects as this WikiProject will have too select a grouping following it. Mabuska (talk) 12:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for notifying the other projects. It was never the intention to make this a select grouping; the more input there is the better for everybody. I do, however, wish you could have posted a neutrally worded notice and avoided expressing your own personal feelings. You have already expressed them here. By the way, I don't know of any WP process for "enshrining" results. How is this generally done, and is it a multi-denominational procedure? Scolaire (talk) 13:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Humour is difficult to pitch correctly, let's stay serious. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 08:22, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I supply the incense and you can bring the holy water. Mabuska holds the candles, The Banner leads the chanting, Gnevin places each Result in the Shrine and we all genuflect and go home. Brocach (talk) 13:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
No way, I don't lead the chanting! When I start singing, it triggers a panic and quick evacuation of the building. Better let me hold the candles and let Mabuska lead the chanting! The Banner talk 19:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Genuflect? That means it's a Catholic ceremony! Maybe we will have to invoke WP:TROUBLES after all. Scolaire (talk) 14:07, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Scolaire please try to be mature and stop trying to antagonise. Mabuska (talk) 17:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Just a little humour. No offence intended. Scolaire (talk) 19:34, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Touchy. Brocach (talk) 01:17, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Move to close

It's been over 12 hours since the last vote or discussion contribution here, I propose to close these discussions tonight (not less than eight hours from this timestamp) unless there is a dramatic upsurge in voting or discussion. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 11:28, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Categories for Hurling clubs in Ireland

Category:Hurling clubs in Northern Ireland by county and Category:Hurling clubs in the Republic of Ireland by county, which are within the scope of this WikiProject, have been nominated for merger to a new Category:Hurling clubs in Ireland. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:29, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

GAA club championships categories

Category:Antrim GAA club championships and 31 other similar categories (all sub-categories of Category:GAA County Championships), which are within the scope of this WikiProject, have been nominated for renaming from X GAA club championships to the title X GAA County Championships. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:35, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

See also a slightly-related proposal at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 February 2#County_Football_Championships_by_year. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

Conclusion of GAA categorisation discussion

First of all, thank you everyone for a carefully and civilly conducted discussion. This arose from a rather less ordered AN/I discussion which I closed with the request to discuss the naming and categorising conventions here.

I judge that proposals 1, 2,4,5 and 7 had an undeniable consensus or even unanimity. Proposal 3 was in my opinion also carried by consensus. That leaves proposal 6. I was persuaded by the arguments against making an exception for Derry GAA and there was a clear majority against the proposal. However it was a less than 2:1 majority, there were a total of only 17 editors voting and the subject touches on one of the most sensitive naming policies on Wikipedia. So I propose to refer on the decision on whether or not an exception should be made for GAA categories relating to this county. I have posted a request at the IMOS talk page summarising the agreed results and asking for a decision about the Derry/Derry GAA problem.

While I think the decision here on proposals 1-5 and 7 is uncontroversial, please do NOT start implementing this until folks at IMOS have had their say. I said at AN/I that I would block anyone making changes to categories before final agreed consensus and that still holds good. I will summarise below the agreed proposals and provide a link to the IMOS talk page discussion. The agreed, defeated and no-consensus proposals will be copied to the IMOS talk page.

Agreed proposals

  • Titles of articles on intra-county GAA competitions should not have "GAA" inserted after the county name, i.e. "X Intermediate Football Championship", not ""X GAA Intermediate Football Championship", unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition.
  • Titles of articles on intra-county GAA competitions should not include the (transient) sponsor name, unless cases emerge where there is a real possibility of confusion with another sporting competition.
  • Titles of categories of people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not have "GAA" inserted after the county name, i.e. "X hurlers", not "X GAA hurlers"; "X Gaelic footballers", not "X GAA Gaelic footballers".
  • Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should be categorised according to the county for which the player played, i.e. "Category: X GAA hurlers" or "Category: X hurlers" should include people who have hurled for X, regardless of their place of birth or residence. Players who have played for more than one county should be included in both county categories. Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should not be categorised according to the county in which the player was born or the county or counties in which they resided during their playing career.
  • In any of the above cases, the county in question should be the GAA county, not the "current administrative" county, i.e. "Tipperary", not "South Tipperary"; "Dublin", not "Fingal".

Defeated proposal

  • The scope of the category structure "Sportspeople from County Foo" (e.g. Category:Sportspeople from County Galway) should be defined as "Notable sportspeople who were born in the Irish county of Foo". This structure to be independent of the GAA county structure. So a person can be born in one county but may play for a different (or multiple) GAA county (e.g. Tony Reddin). Furthermore, the structure to permit the creation of categories for all modern administrative counties (e.g. Fingal, South Dublin and North Tipperary) as well as the "traditional" counties.

No-consensus proposal

  • Derry GAA should be exempted from all the above proposals, and IMoS should be amended to clarify as such.

Thank you again for a calmly conducted discussion on a topic where I know feelings were running high. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 22:53, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry but how did you come to that conclusion? I'm aware of WP:NOVOTE but it was 11 v 6 . The Derry proposal was defeated Gnevin (talk) 11:40, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I explained my reasoning above for referring proposal #6 on to IMoS. In most other cases I would have judged the consensus to be against the proposal. However this proposal relates to one of the most contentious naming disputes on WP, and is arguably just as much if not more within the purview of IMoS. So it does no harm to play safe and let IMoS have a look at this as well. There is no rush. If there are no dramatiuc new insights we can confirm the defeat of the proposal - but if there are further insighs it would be good to have them. Either way, letting the maximum number of people have the opportunity to comment is the best way of making the eventuald ecision stick. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 14:02, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Gnevin Wikipedia is not a democracy, we don't outvote each other. Straw polls are used to see what way the community feels about an issue and if no-one objects then you can call a consensus however at 6 versus 11 there is no consensus of any form so Kim is quite right to declare it as non-consensus.
Despite that I think the discussion on Proprosal 6 was moving in the right direction and in an amicable manner meaning that it could be dealt with quite quickly, most likely at IMoS as it is an IMoS issue as far as I am concerned. Mabuska (talk) 15:01, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I did link to WP:NOVOTE in fairness and to me the CON is very clear but if it please everyone involved we can let it roll for a other while Gnevin (talk) 15:35, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Just to be clear, in almost any other case I would have judged the consensus to be against proposal #6. However this is such a contentious issue that it seemed sensible to make sure IMoS could have a say too. If the discussion there has similar numbers voting and arguments produced, than I will have no hesitation in declaring that the consensus is indeed against the proposal. There is no deadline on Wikipedia, and it's more important to get this decision right than to get it quickly. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 15:05, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

A note on implementing the agreements we came to above. As I said inthis closing edit I do ask people not to start recategorising until IMoS has had its say. There is absolutely no urgency about this. Please desist from any recategorising, renaming or other implementation of the decisions we took at WT:GAA until the IMoS discussion is closed. I will regard people hastily implementing this as potentially disruptive and therefore blockable. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 22:34, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Apologies, I overlooked that point in the note above and started reverting some of the changes in line with consensus. I'll stand back for now. Brocach (talk) 00:34, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Closing decision

Nobody has commented adversely on the agreed consensus points described above. On the debated point, the only new voices at WP:IMOS have added their weight to opposition for a special case for Derry GAA. I judge the consensus is that Derry GAA should be treated in the same way as Galway GAA and any other association when it comes to titling and categorising pages. When it comes to making reference in body text of articles, from what I can see there will be little or no changes needed. Typically a piece of text might say "Tippereray beat Dublin..." and the effect of defeating the proposal for a special case for Derry GAA is that text involving a Derry GAA team would also say ""Derry beat Galway..." rather than, uniquely, "Derry GAA beat Galway..."

The consensus arrived at here is clear and has been throughly discussed and may now be implemented. Please however do not regard this as a battle in which one side has emerged victorious. In particular, it would be odious if any kind of celebration or victory dancing took lace. I'm thinking particular;y of the obscure conflict that seems to be in place over Tipp vs North Tipp and South Tipp. This seems to have nothing to do with WP:TROUBLES but has some more personal root. Please edit like collegial collaborators, not roleplaying gamers. Over to you. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 11:32, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Category:Tipperary GAA hurlers

Category:Tipperary GAA hurlers, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for renaming to Category:Tipperary hurlers. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:57, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Format for club articles

As a respite from the interminable terminological pericombobulation, I have put together a suggested format for club articles, as already exists at the project page for counties and bios; there is quite a lot of variation in existing articles of this class, but most articles have most of the suggested heading in more or less the same order. Project members are welcome to suggest (or just make) any improvements. Wikipedia:WikiProject Gaelic games/club Brocach (talk) 16:07, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

why not have GAA_County: in the infobox rather than just a pipelink? Same issue is going to arrise. In terms of clubs if infobox says County:Derry people are going to think Derry is the name of the county, and not just in GAA terms.Factocop (talk) 16:23, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
The term "County" as shown in the infobox refers and has always referred to the GAA county, and the name shown is the actual name of the relevant GAA county. It's never been a problem and not many people will read a GAA infobox as some sort of political propaganda; in fact, anyone who takes enough of an interest in Derry GAA matters to read an infobox for a Derry GAA club will know exactly what "Derry" means in that context. The format is for articles on GAA clubs worldwide, not just in the GAA county that has, for 125 years, been called Derry. Brocach (talk) 17:46, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Apologies Brocach, given your edit history, its got me questioning your motives especially when it comes to counties in Ireland. I agree with your points completely, only for those people who have never heard of GAA, roughly 6billion people, it may be a little confusing for them. I have read many wiki pages in passing that I would have little or no interest in, so to say that only those interested in GAA would be reading the page is a bit off. Factocop (talk) 08:55, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
If you havent been following any of the county name related threads Factocop, a brief condensing is Dublin is five counties, Cork- one counties and one admin area and so on. A GAA county is more or less the same as the older traditional counties. Confused still ? Murry1975 (talk) 09:01, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Yeah just because there has never been a County Derry in the history of Ireland so if we are talking traditional counties, I see no mention of County Coleraine. Confused still?Factocop (talk) 09:33, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Ignore him and he'll go away. Scolaire (talk) 12:51, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
And then someone else will mention it. The Banner talk 19:27, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Scolar, ignoring a perfectly rationale point is hardly inkeeping with the spirit of wikipedia? rather than ignore my point, why not respond with a rationale point of discussion, if you have one that is? to ignore my point is to admit that what I am saying might just be correct.Factocop (talk) 09:49, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Factocop, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here. A clear consensus has been arrived at, by a lengthy and inclusive process. I understand that you disagree with the position we've reached but sniping away is not productive. Please either use a formal process to challenge the decision I made on consensus, collaborate with the agreement and implement it despite your reservations, or take this and other pages off your watchlist and stop poking. It's not productive and, if persisted with, is likely to become disruptive. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 09:56, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Kim, are you blind? I did not raise this line of discussion, Brocach did. You would need to ask them what their motives are, not me. I have simply made points as to why I think the template proposed by Brocach could be confusing. I have made a point highlighting that GAA counties are not solely based on traditional historical counties. I await a response to that comment from anyone opposed to my opinion.Factocop (talk) 10:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
No I'm not blind - but you might want to adjust your manner of discourse if that's your usual way of working collegially and co-operatively. You've made your points but I don't see anything new in them that wasn't covered (and rejected) in the original consensus-raising discussion. You cannot use this forum as a means of challenging a consensus which has just been reached after an exhaustive and fully inclusive process. You can ask for responses but I'd recommend that people not offer them, as to do so will only reignite a discussion which has just now been concluded. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 11:01, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Apologies Kim, I was treating this topic as separate from the previous discussion, given that it was opened on a new discussion thread. Lets be honest, using 'Derry' on wikipedia will always raise eyebrows, and though there is consensus, it does not guarantee neutrality or at times, fact, unless you can safely say that those canvassing their votes are of a neutral point of view, which is just not possible. If you look at the Londonderry talk page, there were more users for than against for a change to call the page 'Londonderry' instead of 'Derry' yet the consensus was sweeped under the carpet and ignored. There has to be an end to this anti-british editing culture that is sweeping wikipedia. Ill drop this now, but Ill continue to canvass and edit for neutrality and fact on wikipedia pages. I hope you can do the same. Peace out.Factocop (talk) 11:17, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Factocop, I appreciate your self-denying ordinance! Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 11:52, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Category:Moyne-Templetouhy hurlers‎

Category:Moyne-Templetouhy hurlers, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for deletion. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Finnegas (talk) 23:02, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Renaming of per-county GAA club navigational boxes

See Template talk:Dublin_clubs#Requested_move, where I have opened a requested moves discussion on the 35 navigational box templates in Category:Gaelic Athletic Association club navigational boxes.

These templates all fall within the scope of WikiProject Ireland and WikiProject Gaelic games, and some of them fall within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland. I will therefore place the same notification on each project's talk page. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:56, 19 February 2013 (UTC)


Using default navbox colours

Per WP:NAVBOXCOLOUR I think we should agree that our navigational template use the default colours as efforts like [3] are very hard to read. When clubs and counties where picking out their colours they didn't consider how they would look in an on-line format. For the few cases that look ok we've numerous cases that are very hard to read Gnevin (talk) 14:43, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Ambiguously-named by-county categories for hurlers and Gaelic footballers

I have just been doing a big tidyup of the overcategorsiatoion of articles on GAA players. Thousands of them were both in Category:Foo hurlers and Category:Sportspeople from County Foo, which is unnecessary: an article should not usually be in both a category and that category's parent. This just clutters up the sportspeople category with pages more easily found in a discrete subcat, and adds category clutter to the articles. If anyone else wants to monitor this in future, the relevant tools are linked from User:BrownHairedGirl/GAA overcat.

In the course of doing this, I noticed a logical glitch in the category structure, which arises from the ambiguous names of our current categories.

Look for example at Category:Cork hurlers. It is for "sportspeople who have played hurling for Cork GAA". That is, people who have played for the county team.

However, it has lots of subcategories for hurlers-by-club, such as Category:Avondhu hurlers, Category:Imokilly hurlers. Many of these people are notable only because they played for the county team, but some are not. Plenty of people are categorised by club, but never played for the county. They are notable for their achievements outside of hurling, such as in politics or other sports.

These people should not in a subcategory of for "sportspeople who have played hurling for Cork GAA".

The solution is to move the club categories to a separate parent category, so that have something like:

The proposal last month to rename the county-team category to Category:Cork GAA hurlers was no solution, because all hurlers are GAA hurlers; it added verbosity without adding precision. But does anyone have any suggestions for a better name than the rather clumsy Category:Hurlers who played for the Cork County team? It needs to be something which clarifies the scope in the same way.

Whatever solution we devise should be applied to all 32 counties, and to both hurling and Gaelic football. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:30, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Agree entirely that the approach should be common to all 32 counties in Ireland, and to all GAA codes. The present format works well and doesn't need to be changed.
Anyone going to Category:Derry hurlers, for example, should certainly be able to see a list of articles on men who have hurled for Derry, but the subcategories of hurler-by-club are also useful to have there in that they show at a glance which clubs are more or less significant in the county's hurling history. Over-categorisation surely includes inventing tortuously-named categories that serve very little purpose in relation to (a) the effort needed to create and maintain them, and (b) their usefulness to readers of Wikipedia articles on GAA matters. All hurling clubs in any GAA county are, in principle, able to supply players to county teams, and on the first 20 articles I checked, it was only inter-county players that were listed as "Xclub hurlers". Thus, the by-club categories are genuinely subcategories of men who have played for their county. If there are any exceptions, so that an odd hurling club gets listed as belonging to "Derry hurlers" when it may not yet have provided a hurler for any county team, no harm is done. Brocach (talk) 23:02, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
I have to say I entirely disagree with that statement. We are here to present the facts not fudge them Gnevin (talk) 09:36, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I'd suggest Cork inter-county hurlers Gnevin (talk) 09:37, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Cork inter-county hurlers, or Cork senior inter-county hurlers if it is in fact confined to such. I don't see why it would be necessary to have an intermediate subcategory for club players, by the way, especially since all inter-county players are also club players. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 20:09, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
On further reflection, I'm more inclined to agree with Brocach. Perhaps the top-level category needs to be redefined rather than making what may be an unnecessary alteration to the category structure. My reasoning is based on notability criteria. How often will a club player who never played at inter-county level be notable? Of course there may be people eligible to fit into these categories who are genuinely notable for entirely different reasons, but recategorization may give us an unnecessarily elaborate and cumbersome category structure given the numbers involved. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 20:27, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

ComhairleContaeThirnanOg is of course right that all inter-county players are also club players. However, the problem is that not all club players are also inter-county hurlers, and we have dozens of articles on such club players ... all of whom are now categorised as if they were inter-county hurlers. That's simply wrong.

Take for example Category:Cork Gaelic footballers. All the club players are in a sub-cat Category:Cork Gaelic footballers by club, and if we adopt Gnevin's elegant proposal of "Foo inter-county Gaelic footballers", the change I am proposing would simply move the inter-county players to Category:Cork inter-county Gaelic footballers.

Brocach is quite right that the category names I suggested were tortuous, and I specifically acknowledged that in my opening post. But Gnevin's proposal resolves that, and in the case of Cork's Gaelic footballers, the category structure would be:

That means only one new category, and the increased precision would add only 13 characters to the category list of Cork's inter-county footballers. There is nothing elaborate or cumbersome about this, and it removes the inaccuracy inherent in the present structure. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Hang on. Are you saying that there are people in the Category:Cork Gaelic footballers who have not played for the county? As far as I have checked (and I confess I haven't gone through all 200+ articles) every individual in the Cork Gaelic footballers category is at the inter-county level, and only inter-county footballers are found by going to the Category:Cork Gaelic footballers by club listings. The new category is not needed unless there really are dozens of non-county players appearing in the club categories; but no-one should be found in "Cork Gaelic footballers by club" unless they are also individually categorised as "Cork Gaelic footballers", i.e. people who have played for Cork. So Category:Cork inter-county Gaelic footballers would completely replicate Category:Cork Gaelic footballers and add nothing. I have been trying to think of a case where someone who hadn't been called up for the county might still deserve a listing under "Cork Gaelic footballers" - I am open to persuasion but I think the exceptions, if any, will be too rare to justify constructing and populating what would really be a duplicate category. Brocach (talk) 00:10, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Brocach, having been through these categories in great detail, I can answer that one: there are dozens of people in the by-club categories who were not inter-county players for Cork. Some of them are notable for having played GF for other counties, some for having played other sports (mostly commonly soccer or rugby union), and some for unrelated careers such as politics.
However, if you want take the view that no-one should be found in "Cork Gaelic footballers by club" unless they are also individually categorised as "Cork Gaelic footballers", then 3 things apply:
  1. every sub-cat of Category:Cork Gaelic footballers by club should be renamed to clarify that it is only for inter-county players (e.g. Category:Avondhu Gaelic footballers → Category:Avondhu inter-county Gaelic footballers (or more precisely Category:Cork inter-county Gaelic footballers from Avondhu GAA). Otherwise it will be misused.
  2. The categories such as Category:Avondhu inter-county Gaelic footballers should all be purged of people who did not play for County Cork
  3. All players who remain in Category:Avondhu inter-county Gaelic footballers should be removed from {{Cl|Cork Gaelic footballers, because per WP:SUBCAT, an article sould not usually be in both a category and its subcat.
This seems very tortuous. Much simpler to just have a separate inter-county category, as I proposed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:01, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
I still don't see what having the intermediate subcategory Category:Cork Gaelic footballers by club adds other than an additional step in trying to find your way around these categories. Is there some reason we need it as opposed to having the Category:Imokilly Gaelic footballers etc as direct subcategories of Category:Cork Gaelic footballers ?
Also, as far as I can see, your objection to the current set up is based on it putting club-only players into Category:Cork Gaelic footballers, but the problem with that seems to be not that category itself, but how it is described. But that problem is solved by amending the definition to say that it is for "sportspeople who have played Gaelic football in a Cork club or county side" or something similar - and we're going to have to make that amendment anyway under your proposal.
I'm not particularly worried about these issues, neither is going to cause any real problem (though then again, neither does the current set-up), but maybe you could explain your reasoning in a little more detail? I may be missing something, I'm certainly not as familiar with Wikipedia category practices as you are.ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 01:15, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
It is, I think, possible to agonise too much over categorisation, and in particular the 'crime' of overcategorisation. If the by-club categories contain some individuals who haven't played for the county side, but are otherwise notable enough to have their own WP article, that probably adds to rather than detracts from the value of the category. If somebody really famous (ok, WP-notable) played for a club, it may be quite helpful to WP users to see that name in the category, and those who need to know more can follow the link to find out when/whether he/she played for the county. Any 'harm' done by the slight loss of precision is more bearable than having to put everyone who actually did play for their county into a whole new, and almost wholly duplicated, category. Brocach (talk) 20:35, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree that having non-county players in the club categories adds to the value of the club categories. That's why I was not proposing removing them, just pointing out that with they don't belong there so long as the categories are parented in a category of inter-county players. That's why I propose a slight re-arrangement.
My proposal does not involve a duplicated category. At the moment, the inter-county players are in "[Countyname] hurlers" as well as in a club category. If we implement my proposed changes, they would remain in the club category "[Countyname] hurlers", but move from "[Countyname] hurlers" to "[Countyname] inter-county hurlers". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) •

(contribs) 23:38, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm really trying hard to understand this. The WP notability criteria for sportspeople say that in GAA contexts that means (or ought to mean) people who have played on a senior inter-county team. Is there a real issue about lots of players who have their own WP entries not actually having played at that level? If so, shouldn't we be culling the non-notables rather than accommodating them in the category structure? Brocach (talk) 23:52, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

There is a other logical issue with the proposed structure

I know of cases who work in Dublin, are on a border and will play with a club because it's more convenient or a better standard . I also know of someone who hurls for Wicklow but is most definitely from Ballymun . Does Category:Hurlers from County Cork need to go on the individual article ?

I can see the problem there, but I think it is easily avoidable if we avoid the word "from", and use the "Foo hurlers"/"Foo Gaelic footballers", which sidesteps the problems with "from". The main attribute we are trying to capture here is not where a player originates from, but where they played for ... and this structure avoids the problems:
This involves creating only one new category. After the discussion above, the only objection I can see to this is that there is a lot of work in populating the new category. But per the spirit of WP:NOEFFORT, that's no reason not to move in the right direction. A week ago, I diffused a few thousand GAA player articles out of the "sportspeople from" categories; tweaking the categorisation of the inter-county players will be no more difficult. For example Denis Walsh would go from Category:Avondhu Gaelic footballers+Category:Cork Gaelic footballers to Category:Avondhu Gaelic footballers+Category:Cork inter-county Gaelic footballers. That's a fairly simple job with WP:AWB. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:50, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Plus 1 from me Gnevin (talk) 09:44, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

This is a courtesy message to inform the members of this project that I have nominated Portal:Sports for featured portal status. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Sports. The featured portal criteria are at Wikipedia:Featured portal criteria. Please feel free to weigh in. Sven Manguard Wha? 18:30, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Category:Gaelic football players

Category:Gaelic football players and 13 of its subcategories, all of which are within the scope of this WikiProject, have been nominated for renaming to "Gaelic footballers". If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:41, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

See also a related discussion at CFD 2013 April 18#Kerry_Gaelic_footballers_by_club, where the proposal is to rename categories from Category:Foo footballers to Category:Foo Gaelic footballers. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:26, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


Category:Inter-county football competitions

Category:Inter-county football competitions, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for merger. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Category:1971 All Star (hurling)

Category:1971 All Star (hurling) and 24 other similar categories, all of which are within the scope of this WikiProject, have been nominated by me for merger or deletion. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you.. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 April 29#All_Star_Gaelic_footballers. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Map of Ireland - Hurling/Football dominance

This does not look correct to me. Baring a few small pockets, Waterford is almost completely hurling dominant as shown by inter county results. Very hard to push for Tipp as a dual county also. ManfromDelmonte (talk) 11:13, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

It needs a bit of nuancing: different colours for dual (predominantly hurling) and dual (predominantly football). I'll have a go at it. Brocach (talk)

There is now an WP:IRC channel for collaboration between editors in various sports WikiProjects. It's located at #wikipedia-en-sports connect. Thanks Secret account 03:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Club article nominated for deletion

Please see this deletion proposal for an Antrim club. Brocach (talk) 00:05, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Article survived after extensive editing. Brocach (talk) 19:51, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

AfC submission

This template submission is of relevance to this Project. Regards, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 15:38, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Portal components at AfC

Please do not submit Portal components and content to the Articles for Creation process. AfC has no interest in this content at all. Portal components consist of various bits of code, not original text. Even the text components such a featured articles etc are not original content but are extracts from already existing articles. A Portal is the sole responsibility of the Project that runs it. Submitting code to AfC is often very confusing to reviewers who are not familiar with such stuff so they decline it as "nonsense". Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:56, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Category:Gaelic Athletic Association stubs

Category:Gaelic Athletic Association stubs, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:26, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Are GAA biography articles violating Wikipedia policies?

Please see discussion here. Mabuska (talk) 12:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Separate pages for Provincial Football championships

Is there any great need for the likes of following article 2012 Munster Senior Football Championship. The vast majority of this information is already contained in the All-Ireland article for the year which is where all the results IMO should go. On the other hand, no one seems to be doing Football pages for provincial finals as in what's being done for hurling pages (primarily Munster finals though) ManfromDelmonte (talk) 23:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Some of them have more than results though. Connacht 2013 has more details on London's run, for example, and there's always space for expansion. Some, like Ulster 2008, have been around since that time. The 2013 All-Ireland is currently at 60,000+ bytes. Per WP:PAPER "Keeping articles to a reasonable size is important for Wikipedia's accessibility, especially for dial-up and mobile browser readers, since it directly affects page download time (see Wikipedia:Article size). Splitting long articles and leaving adequate summaries is a natural part of growth for a topic (see Wikipedia:Summary style). Some topics are covered by print encyclopedias only in short, static articles, but we can include more information, provide more external links, and update more quickly." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.197.78 (talk) 00:00, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Help at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Challenge Cup (shinty)

I know, shinty isn't the same as hurling, but if someone can help their associates on the other side of the sea, this novice editor has a good idea and a stub but needs a stronger draft to get approved: Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Challenge Cup (shinty). MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:40, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Gaelic Football Final Main Page Event

A nomination of interest to this project has been made here. --95.45.82.197 (talk) 08:21, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Diarmuid Connolly

In response to a post at WP:BLPN, I've taken a look at our article on Diarmuid Connolly, and stubbified it for now, as it needs serious attention - both in regards to Connolly's sporting career, and to other matters (e.g. the incident leading to this [4]). Since I know little about Gaelic football, this seems the best place to ask for help regarding the sport side of it at least. If anyone has comments, I suggest they reply at Talk:Diarmuid Connolly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:16, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

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