Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Archive 9

Archive 5

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Archive 9

Remove Philip Henry

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With fewer than 500 pageviews in the last 30 days (many VA5 articles have over 10K) and only three interwikis, I'm struggling to see how he's known. Religious dissention in Britain is well-represented and there are probably better adds than he _pbp 16:22, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 16:22, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:05, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
4. --Thi (talk) 21:18, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Mary Anning  5

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“She became known internationally for her discoveries in Jurassic marine fossil beds in the cliffs along the English Channel at Lyme Regis in the county of Dorset, Southwest England. Anning's findings contributed to changes in scientific thinking about prehistoric life and the history of the Earth.”

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
2. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:07, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Nettie Stevens  5

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American geneticist credited with discovering sex chromosomes.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
4. How is she not listed? QuicoleJR (talk) 18:58, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Annie Edson Taylor

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Pretty impressive for what she done, but I'm not sure if she's that vital to be listed. She just known for going over Niagara Falls, and her unfortunate life after that.

Support

1. 49p (talk) 23:51, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 20:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Interesting feat, but not vital. The Blue Rider 15:51, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Move Gilles de Rais  5 to murder (under "Miscellaneous")

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Not someone who is most well-known today for his military standing

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
2. definitely Aurangzebra (talk) 21:17, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
4. --Thi (talk) 21:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Nelly

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He's definitely popular and commercial selling, but is he really vital? It's giving the same reasons on why we removed Akon. Mid-importance on Wikiproject Hip-hop.

Support

1. 49p (talk) 01:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 16:09, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. λ NegativeMP1 18:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Does anything that that hip-hop artists is way too over-populated? "Electronic music" gets 25 articles, "Rock and roll" only gets 20, Punk and related genres gets 26, Country gets 36 articles etc. Is there much to warrant about 50 articles for artists in hip-hop compared to others? We could cut some. 49p (talk) 01:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Country music does not deserve 36 artists to be listed as vital, and I'm saying this as a Texan. It is near entirely an Americentric music genre, with its popularity outside of the United States, while existent, is very small. And most of the listed artists for country were only popular before it even expanded outside of the United States, or are only popular in the United States. λ NegativeMP1 18:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I think this makes sense. Hip hop is extremely popular, has global appeal unlike country, isn't considered a subculture/subgenre like punk, and also has an image element to it unlike electronic music where there typically are no lyrics involved and you're usually just a DJ operating on a computer (obviously there are exceptions to all of these). Rock and roll is the only odd one but that's because it specifically refers to the Chuck Berry 1950's style of rock. If we take all of rock, there are way more entries there than in hip hop. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:16, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Harry Kendall Thaw

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"He is most notable for murdering the renowned architect Stanford White", which has been named, the "trial of the century" but that's a long list, and White is not VA5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Not important. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
4. --Thi (talk) 21:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Eugene Klein (philatelist) and Walter Breen

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How many stamp or coin collectors should we list? Six are way too many.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 02:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
4. --Thi (talk) 21:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
5. Support Eugene Klein only Iostn (talk) 21:38, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removing Walter Breen; niche, but he was influential enough that he developed one of the primary ways of cataloging coins, also note the high number of pageviews in spite of the low number of interwikis, and that he isn't solely influential on numistatics. Iostn (talk) 21:38, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Mitt Romney  5

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Seems like recentism, I think we list too many failed presidential candidates and he didn't really influence his party compared to someone like Goldwater.

Support

1. As nominator. Kevinishere15 (talk) 08:42, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
2. I believe we are being overly inclusive of American politicians and businessmen. Mitt Romney had a lot of accomplishments, but really the reason we care about him is recency. For example, Walter Mondale was Jimmy Carters Vice President, a Senator, Minnesota Attorney General, U.S. Ambassador to Japan, and ran as the Democratic nominee against Ronald Regan in 1984. His talk page indicates that in 2021 upon his death, his was in the top 25 most viewed Wikipedia articles. His Wikipedia page is not a vital article, and I don't believe it should be. If he is not considered Vital, then Mitt Romney really shouldn't be either. If Mitt Romney IS considered vital, then the list of people who should qualify grows exponeitally.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:05, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

   Mitt Romney is more vital than quite a few Americans listed at VA5 in fields other than politics... _pbp 00:42, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

   I would honestly nominate Mondale for VA Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 01:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I am of the opinion that we went too crazy with removals awhile back. Guy was governor of one state, Senator of another, a vulture capitalist and organized an Olympics _pbp 11:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
2. As it stands there are better politican removals to propose, such as the myriad Oceanian listings. Iostn (talk) 20:59, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
3. There are defently more politicians less notable then Romney Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 15:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove André Borschberg

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The article states he has broken a few world records, but it has been tagged for self-promotion and lacks sources.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 02:47, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
4. --Thi (talk) 21:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Tama Janowitz

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Only famous for one of her books which was made into a movie, and for being part of a group with a few other writers who we list. Only one book has an article, and that book has no interwikis. This person is not vital.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:53, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. Slaves of New York was a big deal when it came out but it did not stand the test of time. Aurangzebra (talk) 17:59, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Add Thierry Noir

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Iconic French-born street artist, considered to be one of the forerunners of the street art movement. Known for his murals on the Berlin Wall. He seems quite vital, and all of the other street artists we list are from English-speaking countries, so inclunding him would add diversity.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:35, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Sam Gilliam

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He seems somewhat important. I am not an art scholar.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. 3 interwikis suggest that he was not influential. The Blue Rider 11:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per aboveMakkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
3. While I enjoy his artwork it wasn't particularly influential Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 19:10, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Smokey Robinson

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For once, I’m going to make an addition proposal. We have The Miracles  5 on here, but this is definitely a case of a member being vital in their own right. Not only was he the main songwriter and producer for the group (who were called Smokey Robinson and the Miracles from 1965 to 1972), he was also the main songwriter and producer for The Temptations  5, the vice president of Motown, and he received his Hollywood Walk of Fame  5 star and Rock and Roll Hall of Fame  5 induction before the rest of the group.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:17, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
3. The only artist in the top 25 of the Rolling Stone's Top 200 Greatest Singers of All Time [1] we don't list. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:56, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
4. per Aurangzebra Makkool (talk) 12:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think his inclusion as leader of The Miracles is enough. I would rather have some of his contemporaries like Ben E. King or Isaac Hayes added first. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 08:24, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

   He has had an extremely successful solo career outside The Miracles (as evidenced by the fact that he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as a solo artist before The Miracles were inducted a whole 24 years later), he has written many songs you have heard of for groups besides The Miracles such as My Girl (The Temptations song) which is instantly recognizable, and he is Top-Importance on the R&B and Soul Wikiproject. If we went back in time and deleted every single contribution he made to The Miracles, I think he would still be more VA5-worthy than either King or Hayes. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:11, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Joyce Meyer

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In a discussion above, Tammy Faye Messner and Paula White are both getting enough support for removal. To maintain gender balance in American Evangelicals, I'll nominate Joyce Meyer to be added instead of them.

Meyer is one of the most influential woman televangelists worldwide. She is a TV host with a global audience, and an author of several best-selling books about personal growth and emotional healing in a Chrisian context. Time Magazine listed her as one of "25 Most Influential Evangelicals in America" in 2005.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 17:12, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

This attempts to solve one problem but creates several others. 1) It doesn't address the American evangelical bloat because it's not exactly paired with removing a man, 2) I don't understand why she is more notable, or even as notable, as Tammy Faye and Paula White _pbp 01:53, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

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English football adjustments

Swap Gary Lineker  5 for Jimmy Greaves

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Greaves is the top scorer in the history of English top-tier football, he was apart of England's 66' FIFA World Cup triumph and he his often regarded as one of (if not the best) English domestic player during the 20th Century. Whilst Lineker's career is outstanding, it is a shoulder below that of Greaves' legacy; and if not Greaves, many more modern careers have since surpassed Lineker's. It could be argued that Harry Kane (England's top scorer), Manual Neuer (his generation's greatest keeper), Modrić /Benzema /Iniesta /Kaka or Suárez, all deserve places ahead of Lineker, and the list goes on... Idiosincrático (talk) 22:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator Idiosincrático (talk) 22:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Completely ignores his sports broadcasting/presenting career which one may even consider to be more notable than his footballing career as the host of "the longest-running football television programme in the world" (Match of the Day) and being the highest paid BBC personality, not to mention the recent controversy. Sahaib (talk) 20:03, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per Sahaib. It is hard to compare who is a better player across generations especially if you are going by traditional metrics like goals scored. For example, the 1966 FIFA World Cup which Greaves won averaged 2.78 goals/game and the 1990 FIFA World Cup which featured a prime Lineker averaged 2.21 goals/game. However, in terms of impact to the sport, Gary Lineker is way ahead after you factor in his historic sports personality career. I would be happy to consider Jimmy Greaves separately but not as a swap candidate. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:48, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Swap Malcolm Allison for Herbert Chapman

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Chapman was one of the most revolutionary English managers during the early 20th century and I was surprised he wasn't already included. He is mostly responsible in England for floodlights at football matches, shirt numbers, physiotherapists in player management and several other traditions and practices. His tenure at both Huddersfield and Arsenal is regarded as one of the finest periods in the history of each club. Chapman's Arsenal team from the early 1930s is still revered as one of the greatest in English football history. Whereas for Allison, I really couldn't tell you much about him, mostly because I simply don't know him; but it is easy to see how Chapman's legacy as a manager dwarfs that of Allisons. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator Idiosincrático (talk) 07:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Phikia (talk) 04:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove John Kennedy Toole  5

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We still have way too many modern American/Canadian writers (currently over 280) and this guy is seemingly one of the least important people still listed. Not every Pulitzer Prize in Fiction winner is vital (we already do not list all of them) and this guy has little else going for him. Two obscure books, published posthumously, with minimal influence. There are plenty of topics and people that I would rather list.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 19:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose. I consider A Confederacy of Dunces  5 to be a classic (and it seems like other editors agree by including it on VA5). It is listed as the 227th greatest book of all time on the aggregator site Greatest Books [2]. We include plenty of other "one-hit wonder" authors (off a quick glance, examples include Alex Haley  5 and Kate Chopin  5) so I think it's fair we include the author of one of the staples of Southern literature. If we want to remove some authors from this list, there are so many better contenders e.g. Tucker Max whose work has aged incredibly poorly and Andrew Neiderman whose two novels with Wikipedia articles have 0 interwikis. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

   @Aurangzebra: With Haley and Chopin, they each have several stories with articles. Toole only has two. They also have significantly more recognition and awards than Toole, who only received one award. For this situation, especially considering the fact that the book was published posthumously and the fact that writers in general is well over the quota, I think it would be fine to list the book without also listing the author. BTW, thanks for the suggestion for Neiderman, I nominated him for removal below. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:20, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

   Fair opinion. I don't think I'll change my vote mainly because I feel like it doesn't make sense to a list a novel in VA5 and not also include its author but I do respect the reasoning behind the counterpoints. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:36, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

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Add Robert Altman

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The amount of American directors is admittedly a little too high, and there are probably a few names we could take out. That said, Robert Altman should definitely be added, he's a hugely influential director whose films often show up on "greatest movies" lists, none of which are also vital at this level.

Support

1. as nominator. The helper5667
2. Support. 5 films in the top 1000 films of all time and 49th in the list of greatest directors of all time according to the critical aggregator TSPDT [3] ahead of other notable American directors we do list such as Terrence Malick  5, Quentin Tarantino  4, and the Coen brothers  5. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 12:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Evanescence

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Very popular, but I don't think they're a vital band. Other than Fallen, I don't see how this is vital more than missing bands like Weezer (voting here). Seems really similar to the case of why we removed Bring Me the Horizon.

Support

1. 49p (talk) 15:41, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
2. After thinking about this for a bit, I agree. They had very little long term success (or at least, not enough) that would lead me to consider them one of the few hundred most important artists of all time. I'm not sure how many artists from that era would be able to remain vital, honestly. Would love to be proven wrong, though. λ NegativeMP1 17:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

   If you're saying "artists from that era" as in the alternative/punk music released in 2000s, then we could probably cut some bands. For example, the punk section has bands like Fall Out Boy  5, Paramore  5 and Avril Lavigne  5 from the era. All successfully, but not really influential. The only band that would survive vitality from the era like Blink-182  5 and Green Day  5 (if they even count to be from that era). 49p (talk) 18:13, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

   I wouldn't say Blink-182 and Green Day count as being from that era, but I agree with everything else you've said. I would remove Journey before Green Day. λ NegativeMP1 23:55, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

   Fair, I only suggested those two cause they're bands that are definitely not getting removed but was somewhere close to the era.

   However when I was checking the bands listed, I noticed that we only have three "emo" bands. Paramore  5. and Fall Out Boy  5 are the few emo bands (according to the genres they are listed on Wikipedia) we currently list. They're actually more akin to a emo-adjacent pop and are much further to pop-punk than emo. The only band we actually list that can be argued that is more closer to emo than pop-punk is My Chemical Romance  5. So we actually only have a single Emo  5 band, and we can probably make a swap to put a emo band. Don't know which band could be worthy of a swap however. 49p (talk) 00:25, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

   If this is proposing getting rid of My Chemical Romance in favor of another emo band, I think MCR is just as important of a group as Green Day. If you're referring to getting rid of another group in favor of another emo group (so that we can have two), then sure. λ NegativeMP1 17:41, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

   MCR definitely isn't getting removed. I was thinking Avril Lavigne  5 could possibly be swapped. 49p (talk) 17:57, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

   I'm working on a batch of removals right now that will probably allow us to add another emo band without sacrificing Avril. I'm 50/50 on if she's vital or not (I know that back in the day she was extremely popular in Japan and China), and we should probably get rid of some of the lesser known/important guys (particularly in the classic rock and country areas) before we start taking out the bigger acts. Nevertheless, I still agree with your comments about us having a second emo act. λ NegativeMP1 01:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

3. Makkool (talk) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add New Order (band)  5

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We have Blue Monday (New Order song)  5, but not the band linked. I feel like we probably need the band (in a case where the band isn't a one-hit wonder) with the song, or neither.

Support

1. 49p (talk) 19:45, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 20:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
3. Per what I said earlier/when this was successfully proposed for removal. New Order definitely rivals their predecessor Joy Division  5 in overall vitality and were one of the most influential single groups in popularizing synths in popular music in the early 80s, and had a long-lasting career beyond that. When this was removed, a lot of the arguments were based on them having a relatively low number of overall sales compared to some other listed groups, but they were still definitely not a one-hit wonder outside of Blue Monday and their influence goes beyond pure sales figures. Iostn (talk) 20:59, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
4. --Thi (talk) 21:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove James Mckenzie (outlaw)

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Allegedly "one of New Zealand's most enduring folk heroes", but nothing else here suggests he is actually that well-known, and pageviews are low

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 17:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 21:18, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 16:05, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Hannikel

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No indication of importance beyond being commemorated in highly regional folklore. Only one interwiki and very low pageviews.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 17:40, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 21:18, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 16:05, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Edmund Andros

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Think we can have one more colonial American administrator. Rated high-importance on a lot of WikiProjects, he was the Governor of New York for nine years, the Governor of Virginia for almost six years, and the Governor of Maryland for a couple of months. But what makes him vital in my opinion is his role as the Royal Governor of the Dominion of New England, where he pissed off everyone so much that he was immediately overthrown once word of the Glorious Revolution reach the colonies.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

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I'm 50/50 on this one. Were I listing American colonial figures close to VA5 but not there (call it VA5.5 if you will), Andros is one of the omissions; so are the Calverts, James Oglethorpe and Peter Stuyvesant (the latter an interesting one because a) New York is currently the largest of the 13 former colonies, and b) Stuyvesant would be the only non-British colonial figure on the list.) This also seems to fly somewhat in the face of when, earlier this year, we removed quite a few Usonian American politicians, some of whom have as good or better claim to this spot. Those removals would also suggest against a consensus for more Usonian _pbp 03:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

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Add Johnny Sins

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Zero explanation needed.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 17:43, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Seemingly very popular and prolific. 40 interwikis. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 12:22, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.