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Should deletion tags go first?

I notice that AutoWikiBrowser puts new tags on top of CSD/PROD/AFD tags. Is there any standard that says that deletion tags should appear above maintenance tags? It seems logical to me, but I'm unable to find anything. Andrew327 14:03, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Stylized non-trademark titles

Do we have a guideline or consensus about non-trademark names, like song and album titles, that use strange stylization? I can’t find anything, but my impulse would be to apply MOS:TM to any oddly styled titles and use the most standard-looking format in common usage. —Frungi (talk) 05:51, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY and WikiProject Film

Merely as a heads up, there is a discussion of MOS:IDENTITY and how it applies in film articles (beginning with The Matrix and see Talk discussion there also). I have repeatedly in that discussion referred people here, so I thought I should let regulars here know about the discussion there. It's at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film#Describing_transgendered_individuals. I may be entirely misunderstanding MOS:IDENTITY and its application, so any input, of course, welcome. Bondegezou (talk) 10:40, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Canadian dollar: "CAD" vs. "CAD$"

There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Canada-related articles#CAD vs. CAD$ (version of 14:19, 21 August 2013).
Wavelength (talk) 14:29, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Avoiding sigular they

I came here looking for guidelines on this, but perhaps someone strongly against the "singular they" can help me out: I want to add a sentence to a wikipedia article but it seems awkward with singular they, but even weirder with 'him or her' or just 'her'. The sentence: "If rain falls vertically when an observer stands still then when the observer moves forward at constant velocity the rain will appear angled to them, requiring them to tilt their umbrella slightly towards their direction of motion." How would you phrase it? Ahalda (talk) 06:04, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind, but I've created a new section for this, as it's a bit different from the discussion above. I believe in epicene he, but here's an attempt to avoid that: "Rain that falls vertically will appear to a moving observer to be angled. Such observers may therefore feel the need to carry their umbrellas tilted slightly forward." --Stfg (talk) 11:14, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! I modified it a bit to fit into the context, but this works quite nicely. Ahalda (talk) 21:08, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Stfg: you've mixed singular "a moving observer" with plural "such observers". Better to make both plural. "Such" is pointedly old-fashioned in this usage nowadays. "Rain that falls vertically appears to moving observers to be angled; they may therefore feel the need to carry their umbrellas tilted slightly forward." Tony (talk) 03:46, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, Tony, that's much better. (I didn't know that about "such".) --Stfg (talk) 08:55, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Maybe it's just me, but I find the "...appear to a moving observer to be angled" to be awkward. We don't really need to say whose umbrellas they are, either. I would suggest: "Rain that falls vertically appears to fall at an angle from the perspective of moving observers; they may therefore feel the need to carry umbrellas tilted slightly forward." sroc 💬 09:29, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Yes, better. Tony (talk) 10:58, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Very good. The version I've settled on is "Rain that falls vertically will appear angled to moving observers, and they will want to carry umbrellas tilted slightly forward in their direction of motion.". I kept 'will' and 'direction of motion' since the direction is important, and nearby I mention the observer 'starting to move'. Also, for enyone else reading, I found that wikipedia has a grammar help desk: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahalda (talkcontribs) 03:35, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Would it be clearer to say: "...tilted slightly toward their direction of motion"? This would avoid the tautology of "forward" and "in their direction of motion". sroc 💬 04:31, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I played with that too, and I think you're right. Ahalda (talk) 05:48, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:WikiProject Grammar.—Wavelength (talk) 04:56, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm with Sroc on the angled rain bit. What does it mean for rain to be angled? Are the drops tetrahedral or something? I've got another thing bugging be too, though. Whilst "want to" would be better than "need" or "require" none of these are really accurate. Suppose the observer is wearing a raincoat, doesn't have an umbrella, is already drenched or doesn't mind getting wet. How can we talk of needs, requirements or even desires? I suggest we aim at something more objective. How about this? "Rain falling vertically relative to the ground falls at an angle relative to a moving observer. An umbrella is therefore most effective at keeping a pedestrian dry if it is tilted forward." Jimp 10:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Engvar and date format list

Is there, in Wikipedia, a list of countries with the appropriate date format and English variety described? If not, should there be? I would find such a list to be useful. Thanks, SchreiberBike talk 07:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

There is Date format by country. --Boson (talk) 08:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Spelling

I have noticed an apparent inconsistency in spelling in this guideline. Mostly it uses American spelling:

color: 21 matches; colour: not found
favor: 1 match; favour: not found
center: 2 matches; centre: 1 match (an example of British English)
meter 2 matches; metre: not found

However there are two examples of millimetre.

As this appears to be inconsistent, I propose changing this spelling to "millimeter".

Does this raise any concern? Michael Glass (talk) 13:21, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Support. The MoS should use one variant of English consistently. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I have no problem with ordinary text using American spelling. However, the two instances of "millimetre" are in examples, and examples need not use the same variety of English as the MOS. Also, the single instance of "centre" is in a discussion of the difference between American and British English, so should remain as is. Jc3s5h (talk) 01:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Comment Agreed about leaving centre which is given as an example of British English. (I noted that above.) I don't follow the logic of the second objection. 9 millimetre gap is as much an example as 9 millimeter gap so I can't see why it would not follow the style of the rest of the MOS.Michael Glass (talk) 02:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Comment Yes, the centre should stay. Though I agree that there is no need for the millimetre examples to follow the rest of the text, I can't think of any good reason for them not to. Jimp 09:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Comment. Examples are either taken from existing articles, or are representative of what one might find in a hypothetical article. Since articles may use any national variety of English, examples may use any variety of English. The presence of non-American varieties of English in the MOS will serve as a reminder to new editors that several varieties are acceptable in articles. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support Yes, the page should be consistent and since it's been predominantly US spelling forever (right?) that's what it should be. Jimp 09:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Propose changing millimetre to milliliter. Flows better. "Gap" can be whatever. But Support American English for consistency, regardless. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:56, August 23, 2013

(UTC)

There seems to be general support for my proposal (5 to 1 in support of the change). However, just to make sure, I'll go over the changes again. It means changing two instances of millimetre to millimeter and leaving centre as it is because it is given as an example of British English. As an added precaution I'll wait another 24 hours before making the change. This will give time for further comments, if it is thought necessary. Michael Glass (talk) 03:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Actor/actress

Is there any policy on whether to call females "actor" or "actress"? 86.160.83.10 (talk) 03:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The distinction should be retained, because it also defines the types of roles that are typically played. Actors and actresses are not usually interchangeable when it comes to casting, which is why the Oscars have two separate categories. However, it is a convention to use "actors" in a collective sense. Betty Logan (talk) 03:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
There's not really a consensus on the matter, even outside of Wikipedia. I think the best thing to do if there is any confusion is to use what reliable sources would use to describe a given person or to start a discussion to get a consensus if there's a dispute about a given usage. One exception I can think of is that females who do voice acting; they are usually referred to by reliable sources as voice actors, probably because many females commonly do voices not just for female characters but also for many male characters (especially younger male characters such as Bart Simpson, Bobby Hill, Ash Ketchum, Timmy Turner, and so on). - Aoidh (talk) (formerly User:SudoGhost) 05:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
There certainly is a consensus on Wikipedia. All of our featured articles about actresses use the term "actress" in the lede when referring in the singular sense. We also make the distinction between "actors" and "actresses" at the category level. I would say a dozen or so FA reviews and the organizational structure of the project constitute a consensus in this case. There may be a legitimate argument for making an exception for voice performers who exclusively do male and female voiceover work, but it's an exception rather than the rule. Betty Logan (talk) 09:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Has there been any serious discussion of the use of "actor" vs. "actress" recently? I can't find one in a quick search. There's certainly a de facto consensus, but consensus can change and if there hasn't been an RfC on this issue recently, maybe there should be. If a woman self-identifies as an "actor" rather than an "actress", should we not respect this, as we do other self-identifications? Peter coxhead (talk) 10:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
The word actor is not gender specific, and if reliable sources or the individual herself favoured the use of actor when referring to themselves, then there is no basis on Wikipedia to contradict that. There doesn't appear to be a consensus on this subject, as a consensus involves a discussion, that a given set of of articles use a term is not a consensus for usage of that term outside of the specific article being discussed, and certainly not one to justify use on other articles if reliable sources contradict that usage (though there may be a "de facto" consensus, such as it is). I'm not suggesting that we should go around changing actress to actor on any article, but I am saying that Wikipedia should reflect reliable sources, rather than a non-existent guideline on which is correct. Generally, however, reliable sources do use actress, so it's not really an issue for most articles, but if an individual expresses that they are an actor, it would be inappropriate to dismiss that just for the sake of matching a category or some other article about some other person. - Aoidh (talk) (formerly User:SudoGhost) 10:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
As ever, I'd be wary of the "use reliable sources" in individual cases advice for this kind of thing. That's always pretty random and simply depends on the varying style guides of individual publications. If Mary Smith has been written about more often in the Guardian than in the Sun, it's likely you'll find her more often referred to as an actor than an actress and vice-versa. I'm not sure that tells us much of substance. Style choices like this are not an issue of "reliability" of sources in the same way that substantive content is. N-HH talk/edits 10:24, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I agree, and probably should have been more clear about that. I specifically meant what the individual used to refer to themselves, if such a thing was reported by reliable sources, rather than what the reliable sources chose to call the individual based on their own style guidelines. - Aoidh (talk) (formerly User:SudoGhost) 10:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Ah, OK. On that specific aspect, I agree. N-HH talk/edits 10:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the replies. I believe this to be a potentially contentious issue. I would like the MoS to include specific written guidance that can be a recourse in the event of disputes. From what I gather so far, women should be called after their own preference, where that is known. The preference of other sources (e.g. media sources) is not relevant, since they follow their own style guidelines which may differ from Wikipedia's. The term "voice actor" is preferred for both sexes. The term "actor" is preferred for women who primarily play male roles. Of course, this leaves a gaping hole in the case of women who are not voice actors and who play female roles, and who have not stated a preference, or whose preference is not known. What then? Do they default to "actress"? 86.160.213.112 (talk) 14:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
You have covered all the bases well. I think aside from the exceptions you list above (i.e. personal preference, voiceover work etc), the default wording for a woman who mostly portrays women should be "actress". Another exception I can think of is in the context of industry awards: all Best Actress oscar winners/nominees should be referred to as "actresses" in the context of those awards, while in the analogous category for the SAG awards they should be referred to as "female actors". I think we should develop a simple guideline so people don't have to keep asking or get into disputes over it, but it would better done over at the Film project. I have started a discussion at WT:FILM#"Actor" or "actress" for erm, actresses? if you would like to participate. Betty Logan (talk) 18:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Language Log: "Manning's pronouns"

Language Log has a discussion at Language Log » Manning's pronouns.
Wavelength (talk) 16:35, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I get a page that says “Your PHP installation appears to be missing the MySQL extension which is required by WordPress.“—Odysseus1479 00:26, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is a link to a Google cache of the page.
Wavelength (talk) 01:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Dashes in compounds

The format of the article title "Fox–Fordyce disease" is discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine#Long dash travesty (version of 18:38, 24 August 2013).
Wavelength (talk) 18:46, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

shortcut template

Please add

{{shortcut|MOS:Blockquote}}

to the head of the "Block quotations" sub-section. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:14, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. MOS:Blockquote should now work. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protection

I have semi-protected this page for 3 days to stop the flood of !voters coming in to !vote on the "survey" above. Please note that I personally have absolutely no opinion on the matter, and am not trying to "stifle" discussion; rather, I simply don't care which way the community decides, as I'll enforce (as an administrator and editor) whichever decision meets consensus. I apologize to the small number of IP editors who seem to be Wikipedia veterans and are contributing in good faith, but I see no other way to keep this discussion manageable. Any regular editors who want to leave a real message that is actually germane to the discussion can do so at User:Qwyrxian/MoS comments and I will endeavor to copy them over as needed. Note that I will ignore/delete any "votes" that I see there, as they have absolutely no value to our process. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:03, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Can anyone think of a better section title?

Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Within_Manual_of_Style ... needs "the". But it's just not clear what it refers to. Tony (talk) 12:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

"See also" - Tony, I did a quick check of the edit history of the page and found that less than a year ago "Within Manual of Style" was a sub-section of "See also". It was moved on March 26, 2013 by User:Moxy, who, from the edit summary ("this is is the wrong place ...move down"), I believe thought that there was an error in the location of the "See also" section, not realizing that "Within Manual of Style" was a sub-section rather than an additional, separate section. The section header (and the links inside the section) make more sense as a sub-category of a "See also" section. 99.192.67.148 (talk) 13:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
I support restoring it to its previous level and position as a subsection of the section "See also".
Wavelength (talk) 17:58, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Apparently you are referring to this revision at 07:33, 26 March 2013.
Wavelength (talk) 00:51, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
That's the one! 99.192.84.128 (talk) 01:01, 25 August 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
I restored the layout at 23:29, 30 August 2013.
Wavelength (talk) 23:33, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

For want of a hyphen...

...the meaning was lost. Today I heard a news item on NPR talking about "criminal and national security matters", pronounced as if "criminal and national" modified security, instead of sounding like the intended "criminal and national-security matters". Quotes with this phrase from both Microsoft and Facebook now appear already in WP at PRISM (surveillance_program)#Post-PRISM transparency reports. The NPR news anchor was misled by the lack of hyphen (and sounded lame because of it, to those who could infer what was intended), as I expect many of our readers will be misled. Would it be OK to fix the styling/punctuation of quotes for this kind of problem? Dicklyon (talk) 04:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

From what little formal grammar education I received, one thing was that compound adjectives should be connected by a hyphen. National and security are both adjectives of matters, and so it should be national-security matters. Otherwise, "criminal and national security matters" implies criminal security-matters and national security-matters. It sounds like what was pronounced was read as "criminal- and national-security matters", expandable to criminal-security and national-security matters. Dicklyon's point seems to be covered by Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Hyphens point 3, third dot point. No? I think Dicklyon's question would seem to be: Should we correct the hyphenation in quotes, or use "(sic)". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:20, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
  • In my entirely inexpert judgment I think it'd be best to add a bracketed hyphen, even though that's kind of obnoxious. If we just put sic, it won't be clear what the error is; if we put "sic: national-security" that's even worse than using brackets. I don't happen to think that just adding the hyphen without brackets would be bad personally, because if they didn't use a hyphen they obviously meant to, but what I do know is that there is a lot of resistance among other editors to modifying quotes. AgnosticAphid talk 05:32, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Ugh, is it just me or is it also totally incorrect that Facebook puts a hyphen between security and related in "national security-related" in its statement? As though they are talking about nationwide safety concerns rather than terrorism. AgnosticAphid talk 05:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I think a hyphen can be inserted into a quote when it was verbal quote mis-transcribed, even if by the speaker's official PA. If the quote is quoting a written source directly, better to slightly obnoxious. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:41, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Two issues here. First, when transcribing an oral (not "verbal") source, you can do as you wish in terms of typography to make it as clear as possible in terms of the intended meaning. You can change the spelling variety from that of the speaker's unless it would jar with the readers in the context. Second, yes, I'd be inclined from the grammar of the intonation, as Dick picked it up, to hyphenate—even in AmEng. CMOS still wants hyphens to avoid misleading or ambiguous wording. Tony (talk) 07:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I agree about the general point that there is more flexibility when we are talking about transcription of genuinely spoken words that did not otherwise exist in written form (although I'd add that when press releases for example refer to Chief Executive Smith as saying "we are pleased to announce ..", be aware that he probably never actually spoke those words). But both the Facebook and Microsoft pieces referred to here are in writing. We really should not be adding or moving punctuation in such quotes, even if it's likely to have been punctuated in error, especially not based on what we think was "really" meant. And in these cases there aren't even necessarily errors – an unhyphenated reference to "national security" is fine, even when used as a compound adjective, as it's a standard phrase whose meaning is surely clear to the average reader; "national security-related" could arguably be mis-hyphenation, but in the context it could be a deliberate attempt to distinguish national issues from international issues. I'd just leave them alone. N-HH talk/edits 10:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
    • N-HH, sure. May I add, then, that a press release is in-house and is taken as approved by the person quoted; they're usually confabulated. Can I take it that the same greater degree of flexibility exists for translated texts? (Expecting you to say yes.) Tony (talk) 12:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Well, as the cliché has it, translation is more art than science. That said, if one was quoting a specific, existing and noted translation I'd apply the same principle: don't fix the punctuation to suit one's preference or one's understanding of what was "really" meant. At the end of the day let's not forget that the application and positioning of much punctuation, especially hyphens and commas, is very subjective. We're often not "correcting" anything, we just imposing our own preferences over those of the quoted source; which of course renders it no longer a precisely accurate quote. N-HH talk/edits 09:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Time magazine article on naming conventions

For those who are interested, Time magazine has recently published an article on naming conventions related to the Manning name change. It can be found at When Did Chelsea Manning Become Chelsea Manning? on their website. I'll note this was already mentioned, but seems to be buried in one of the discussions above and I thought others might be interested in reading it. 64.40.54.112 (talk) 02:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC)}} Thanks for the help. 64.40.54.112 (talk) 02:33, 29 August 2013 (UTC) Copied from User:Qwyrxian/MoS comments per 64.40.54.112's request. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:21, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Self reference to Wikipedia at Chelsea Manning gender identity media coverage

I have removed the section on Wikipedia per WP:SUBJECT, but editors keep adding it back again. Would appreciate input at Talk:Chelsea Manning gender identity media coverage#Wikipedia?. --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:08, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:VERIFY/WP:NOR/WP:SYN and retroactive use of new names

FYI, I have started a discussion here about whether or not using a person's new name when discussing periods of their life during which they were known by another name violates wp:Verifiability, wp:No original research and/or wp:Synthesis (as some have claimed). I am posting here because I have seen the question/argument come up often in discussions that otherwise centre on the MOS, so I imagine those who watch this page might have particular interest or experience in dealing with it. -sche (talk) 17:40, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Consistency section needs new shortcut

The section in the article Wikipedia:RETAIN#Consistency_within_articles features WP:CONSISTENCY which instead goes to an inactive archived article on the topic. Someone familiar with shortcut design is requested to please create a new shortcut. Thanks. 5Q5 (talk) 18:55, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I removed the old shortcut and added two new shortcuts at 19:12, 30 August 2013.
Wavelength (talk) 19:14, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Edits, reversion of edits, and re-reversion of edits to MOS:IDENTITY

Editors may have noticed an edit by GabrielF, a reversion by myself, and a re-reversion by GabrielF (see here). I don't wish to press the limits of the discretionary MOS sanctions – honestly, I can't believe I made the one reversion – so can we get an outside view on whether there is a consensus for this change and a reversion if warranted? There's a discussion above about this and I'll freely admit I'm the only person that chimed in who dissented, but it seems to be to be particularly unwise to make a change to this particular portion of the guideline in the middle of a super high profile and controversial requested move involving exactly the sentence whose deletion I reverted, especially given the low participation in the discussion above. Thanks! AgnosticAphid talk 02:26, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I admit that I am not entirely familiar with the discretionary sanctions policy. My understanding is that it does not imply WP:1RR. However, I will self-revert if requested to do so by an administrator. As consensus does not require unanimity, I do not see why a single objection should prevent a change that is otherwise supported by all participants in a discussion. GabrielF (talk) 02:35, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
The problem is that there was a survey going on further up the page on the same very section, and that survey was going an entirely different direction (and was much more formal).Cam94509 (talk) 03:51, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Arguing with myself: I am completely wrong and have made a mistake, I thought the revision was broader than it was. Is it safe for me to re-revert my change, or would that cause trouble? Cam94509 (talk) 03:57, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Just for reference, the "above" discussion is here. AgnosticAphid talk 02:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
The proposal was made four days ago. In those four days, a couple of dozen different editors have posted some comment or other in one section or another on this page. So it's not as if people have not had the opportunity to offer an opinion. As I read it, four people support the change. One does not. The rest don't really care. For any other editing change discussion on any other page a 4-1 result after 4 days would be a clear consensus to go ahead. I don' see why this should be any different. 99.192.93.163 (talk) 02:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
I endorse GabrielF's revision, since it seems that there was enough consensus to execute the proposed deletion of text. Most discussion participants seemed to agree with the spirit of the change, and the dissenting viewpoints were considered. However, as AgnosticAphid notes, the participation was small, so the consensus could easily change if the discussion continues. Edge3 (talk) 02:53, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
I also endorse it as the text was confusing and made little sense. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:42, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Shoot, I screwed up on this. Is it safe for me to rerevert my change? Cam94509 (talk) 03:57, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:MOS#Captions seems more informative than its sub-page WP:CAP

Thread retitled from "Section Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Captions seems to be more informative than sub-page Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Captions regarding punctuation of captions.".

The section Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Captions seems to be more informative than the sub-page Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Captions in that it better describes the punctuation when a caption contains both a sentence fragment and a full sentence, namely that each sentence and each sentence fragment should end with a period. Especially since WP:Captions redirects to the sub-page, should the sub-page be amended accordingly? --Boson (talk) 23:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I am not familiar with the differences or caption matters generally, but the usual rule is that, yes, "In case of discrepancy, this page has precedence over its subpages and the Simplified Manual of Style." You could be bold and update the subpage and if someone objects take it from there, maybe. AgnosticAphid talk 14:44, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

What if someone switches gender and/or names frequently?

several implausible hypotheticals posted by a single user; not a productive or useful discussion
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Thread retitled from "what if someone tries to claim different genders and/or names so often that it will confuse people, and be hard to keep up to date?".

If you were a public figure and you announced you wanted to be addressed by a different name and gender everyday, should the Wikipedia editors alter your page to reflect your wish on a daily basses?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.151.144.40 (talkcontribs)

This is based on a misunderstanding of gender identity, and so isn't really a question that can be correctly answered. Thryduulf (talk) 14:17, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
ok firstly the part about name change doesn't necessarily relate to gender issues. secondly it's my understanding that the idea is to give the person total right of choice on what gender they wish to be addressed as without anything official (like say a diagnoses of being transgender) required as proof. If that is the case then there’s nothing to stop a person doing what I said even if just to fuck with the site?
That'd be an extraordinary situation and we'd have to get a consensus that the rules aren't helping. The manual of style is just here to solve obvious problems and avoid repetitive arguments, not create ironclad demands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
you think it's helpfull to call someone by anyother name besides the one they're most well known for? 71.231.186.92 (talk) 17:17, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
We cannot distort everything we do here just in case some bizarre hypothetical might theoretically happen. (See also WP:BEANS. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:33, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
You're evading the question — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.151.144.40 (talk) 17:49, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
What if an organization's WP:COMMONNAME is only ever written in a script Unicode has not encoded; what will we title the article? What if the WMF bans the English Wikipedia from using the word "the"; how will we express definiteness? Does this occur on any regular basis, or is this another unlikely boogeyman scenario? -sche (talk) 19:20, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
we would write the title in the normal font because font isn’t an aspect of correct spelling, and ignore the law. can you answer my question? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.151.144.40 (talk) 21:24, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
There is no reason to try and write policy or guidance to comply with a situation that does not actually happen. If it does happen, we can figure something out; and in the unlikely event they're deliberately trying to be confusing we can treat it accordingly. But clamouring to address this sort of speculative edge-case doesn't help discussions. Andrew Gray (talk) 19:24, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
There doesn't have to be a policy for each and every possible event, it can be dealt with if it happens. --Space simian (talk) 23:01, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

What if a group speaks a foreign language and has a foreign-language autonym?

formerly titled: "the most common terms for a group will be those that the group most commonly uses for itself" what about groups who don’t commonly speak English who’s word for them selves differs from the English language version of their collective group name?

0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.151.144.40 (talk) 04:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Since this is the English-language Wikipedia, we have to go by what's available in English. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:33, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
formerly titled: It makes the most sense to either title a person’s pages by the name the person is most commonly known by (unless the name was made up as an as insult to them), or their legal name in their primary country of residence

It makes the most sense to either title a person’s pages by the name the person is most commonly known by (unless the name was made up as an as insult to them), or their legal name in their primary country of residence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.151.144.40 (talkcontribs)

You're posting this to the wrong talk page. Page titles are governed by WP:AT, not the MOS. You should post this topic on WT:AT, not here. 99.192.66.56 (talk) 22:39, 31 August 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)

MOS:Identity