Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 131
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En-dash usage
- Thread retitled from "Continued forumshopping about en-dash usage".
At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Airports#New RfC, someone's launched another "hyphens vs. en dashes" RfC with regard to airports, after one RfC and various requested moves have already declined to override MoS on this. Someone seems not to have noticed WP:LOCALCONSENSUS and WP:OWN. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 02:34, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- I would suggest that hyphens seem to be correct for airports. I can not find anyone using en dashes. In our list of US airports all use hyphens except for Rock Springs – Sweetwater County Airport, for which the actual name is "Rock Springs Sweetwater County Airport". There are 53 U.S. hyphenated airport names. Some use en dashes, some hyphens. Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania uses a hyphen, correctly I would say. Am I missing something? Apteva (talk) 04:32, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Or are hyphens always correct for airports and Wilkes-Barre because of this advice: "Wrong: Franco–British rivalry; "Franco" is a combining form, not independent; use a hyphen: Franco-British rivalry"? Apteva (talk) 04:39, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- The following nine U.S. airport article names use en dash:
- Aspen–Pitkin County Airport
- Charles M. Schulz – Sonoma County Airport
- Fort Lauderdale – Hollywood International Airport
- Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport
- Lewiston – Nez Perce County Airport
- Minneapolis−Saint Paul International Airport - actually uses a minus sign, not an en dash
- Reno–Tahoe International Airport - this was moved recently and the RM was probably closed incorrectly, with one support vote and insufficient information.
- Seattle–Tacoma International Airport
- Wiley Post–Will Rogers Memorial Airport
- Some of the hyphens in the airport list are for old or alternate names. The remaining 28 U.S airports use hyphen. Apteva (talk) 07:00, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- I do not express currently any reasoning about airport names in general, but the comparison of "Wilkes-Barre" to "Franco-British" is completely wrong because of John Wilkes and Isaac Barré. Also, Apteva's use of space-stroke-space instead of an en dash directly in this posting (which is exactly about the hyphen–dash rivalry) looks as a provoking illiteracy, which does not contribute to establishing of the consensus. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 11:02, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- The link from "stroke" takes me to an article on hyphen-minus, yet a fifth type of dash type character. I am not aware of any airport name using a hyphen-dash (-), and I used the exact punctuation used in our article names in the list above. Some use an en dash, some a space en dash space, and all are in the list above, although now MSP also uses endash. Other than that I am not aware of using "stroke" "in this posting". Apteva (talk) 04:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- The hyphen-minus is a type of dash, really? Not more than polyvinyl chloride is a sort of wood, or laminate is something of parquetry. You think of a substitute as a variety – it's not correct. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 19:40, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Actually I was not able to reproduce the hyphen-minus, but by "dash type" I meant "hyphen or longer horizontal line used for punctuation". I thought that should have been clear from the context. So I was saying "flooring" not "wood". At least when I cut and pasted the hyphen-minus into my word processor, it came out as a hyphen. Our article on dashes points out there are more than two types of dashes using dash in the sense of "not a hyphen or minus sign but a horizontal line used for punctuation", and this guideline says that WP uses two of them. Apteva (talk) 21:11, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I understand you when you say "dash type character" to mean what is often called "horizontal line" on this page. But neither the dash article nor the MOS: uses the unmodified word "dash" to include hyphens and minus signs. I know semantic distinctions can be arbitrary, but you will definitely confuse us if you call hyphens and minus signs "dashes". Art LaPella (talk) 00:43, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- Not a problem. Sometimes posts are very confusing, and sometimes they can be deciphered. Sometimes they remain forever a complete enigma (and yet are clearly not vandalism). Apteva (talk) 01:49, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- I understand you when you say "dash type character" to mean what is often called "horizontal line" on this page. But neither the dash article nor the MOS: uses the unmodified word "dash" to include hyphens and minus signs. I know semantic distinctions can be arbitrary, but you will definitely confuse us if you call hyphens and minus signs "dashes". Art LaPella (talk) 00:43, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- Actually I was not able to reproduce the hyphen-minus, but by "dash type" I meant "hyphen or longer horizontal line used for punctuation". I thought that should have been clear from the context. So I was saying "flooring" not "wood". At least when I cut and pasted the hyphen-minus into my word processor, it came out as a hyphen. Our article on dashes points out there are more than two types of dashes using dash in the sense of "not a hyphen or minus sign but a horizontal line used for punctuation", and this guideline says that WP uses two of them. Apteva (talk) 21:11, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- The hyphen-minus is a type of dash, really? Not more than polyvinyl chloride is a sort of wood, or laminate is something of parquetry. You think of a substitute as a variety – it's not correct. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 19:40, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- The link from "stroke" takes me to an article on hyphen-minus, yet a fifth type of dash type character. I am not aware of any airport name using a hyphen-dash (-), and I used the exact punctuation used in our article names in the list above. Some use an en dash, some a space en dash space, and all are in the list above, although now MSP also uses endash. Other than that I am not aware of using "stroke" "in this posting". Apteva (talk) 04:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- Apteva, I don't doubt that you have good intentions; but your zeal in many forums at the same time and on a couple of style issues is getting disruptive. Please don't edit this MOS page to further your present push. I have just reverted that, and I invite others to monitor things also. This page is to serve the needs of editors maintaining 4,000,000 articles. Its provisions have generally been weighed very carefully, by editors with linguistic knowledge and a great deal of style experience.
- If you have questions about hyphens and dashes – and certainly about proper nouns and proper names, on which I see you have picked up some strange folk ideas – feel free to drop in at my talkpage and we can talk it over.
- ☺
- NoeticaTea? 11:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Isn't the relevant section this bit, at MOS:ENDASH?: "By default, follow the dominant convention that a hyphen is used in compounded proper names of single entities, not an en dash. Guinea-Bissau; Bissau is the capital, and this distinguishes the country from neighboring Guinea. McGraw-Hill, a publishing house". That seems to me to suggest we should follow the use of a hyphen where that's the official, formal name, maybe even in every case. The airport is a single entity, even if the bits that gave it the name aren't. Also, a quick scan suggests that several of the pages above that are using the endash now were moved from the hyphenated version at the end of last year, so it seems that was the stable principle in practice as well until a while ago. N-HH talk/edits 11:49, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- ps: and, as ever, this merely reinforces my view that we could save ourselves all a lot of trouble by doing what most online and many print publishers do and forgetting about the specialist use of, and distinction between, hyphens and endashes. But that's another story, and I know its use makes many people strangely happy. N-HH talk/edits 11:49, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- No, N-HH. Airports are not typical entities of that sort. The default is here overruled; and indeed practice "out there" is variable even for the same airport name. Unlike "Guinea-Bissau", say. Airport names are usually functional artificial constructions with semantic weight, more like definite descriptions than fully autonomous proper names. Contrast "McGraw-Hill", which is in a way fossilised. No one thinks of "McGraw" and "Hill" as meaningfully linked in that name. Not any more.
- Your view about saving a lot of trouble by obliterating the best-practice distinction that MOS preserves is well and truly noted. Thank you for not going on about it! The community spoke on these issues last year, loud and clear. There was strong endorsement of the distinctions MOS makes, which are far from unusual or freakish. They contribute to a high-quality encyclopedia, with enhanced readability. But I don't want to go on about it!
- NoeticaTea? 12:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Well I can only counter that it seems to me at least that they very much are entities of exactly that sort, and that no clear justification has been offered for any decision to simply "overrule" that default. I don't quite get the idea that an airport name derived from a combination of the names of two people or after the two places it serves is any less a "fully autonomous proper name" - whatever that might mean exactly, especially the first half - than the name of a publishing house originally founded by two different people. And at what point might "fossilisation" occur? Some airport names are very old. Some even have their names specifically referred to, in multiple sources such as this syndicated AP report - even if, I know, those sources are not academic guides to grammar and punctuation - as being "hyphenated". N-HH talk/edits 14:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- The hyphenation in that article will not be based on the "correct" name, but since it is an AP story, it will be based on the AP house style. Neotarf (talk) 15:04, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not talking about the hyphenation itself or AP style, I'm talking about their use of the actual word hyphenation to describe the name. Something which is very common in other sources and reports too, including when quoting those involved in determining the name change. N-HH talk/edits 15:09, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- I also noticed this, and I made a list of sources explicitly saying that these names are hyphenated. And I can't find any source saying that they are dashed.... This is exactly what you would expect to find if airport names were hyphenated proper names. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:25, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- I assume the response to that is, or would be, two-fold though: first, that it's merely loose language from people who are not punctuation experts, and secondly that even if it "is" a hyphen, our style-guide not only requires an endash but mandates us to force the change when rendering it here. Whether any or all of that has any real weight, I'm not sure .... N-HH talk/edits 16:33, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- The second argument would be quite misleading? Both WP:HYPHEN and WP:DASH happens to recommend a hyphen for proper names of single entities. We can all agree that an airport is a single entity. Maybe someone will want to argue that airports don't have proper names? --Enric Naval (talk) 14:44, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- They already have of course, not least previously in this very thread ... N-HH talk/edits 14:50, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- The second argument would be quite misleading? Both WP:HYPHEN and WP:DASH happens to recommend a hyphen for proper names of single entities. We can all agree that an airport is a single entity. Maybe someone will want to argue that airports don't have proper names? --Enric Naval (talk) 14:44, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- I assume the response to that is, or would be, two-fold though: first, that it's merely loose language from people who are not punctuation experts, and secondly that even if it "is" a hyphen, our style-guide not only requires an endash but mandates us to force the change when rendering it here. Whether any or all of that has any real weight, I'm not sure .... N-HH talk/edits 16:33, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- I also noticed this, and I made a list of sources explicitly saying that these names are hyphenated. And I can't find any source saying that they are dashed.... This is exactly what you would expect to find if airport names were hyphenated proper names. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:25, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not talking about the hyphenation itself or AP style, I'm talking about their use of the actual word hyphenation to describe the name. Something which is very common in other sources and reports too, including when quoting those involved in determining the name change. N-HH talk/edits 15:09, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- The hyphenation in that article will not be based on the "correct" name, but since it is an AP story, it will be based on the AP house style. Neotarf (talk) 15:04, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Well I can only counter that it seems to me at least that they very much are entities of exactly that sort, and that no clear justification has been offered for any decision to simply "overrule" that default. I don't quite get the idea that an airport name derived from a combination of the names of two people or after the two places it serves is any less a "fully autonomous proper name" - whatever that might mean exactly, especially the first half - than the name of a publishing house originally founded by two different people. And at what point might "fossilisation" occur? Some airport names are very old. Some even have their names specifically referred to, in multiple sources such as this syndicated AP report - even if, I know, those sources are not academic guides to grammar and punctuation - as being "hyphenated". N-HH talk/edits 14:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- I do not express currently any reasoning about airport names in general, but the comparison of "Wilkes-Barre" to "Franco-British" is completely wrong because of John Wilkes and Isaac Barré. Also, Apteva's use of space-stroke-space instead of an en dash directly in this posting (which is exactly about the hyphen–dash rivalry) looks as a provoking illiteracy, which does not contribute to establishing of the consensus. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 11:02, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Enric Naval:
- I have answered your point about "sources explicitly saying that these names are hyphenated" at the RFC itself. As I write, you have not responded there. Why not? You are instead continuing to argue here as if I had not responded! That is unhelpful and uncooperative. If you would prefer that I ignore your points in future, just tell me, all right? ♫♪
- The answer I gave at that RFC is one that N-HH predicts, above. My text at the RFC:
"That's all misleading, Enric. For example, people commonly use 'hyphenated' to mean 'with a hyphen or something that looks like one'. Most writers (and many editors ☺) are not style experts, and most are unaware that there are such things as en dashes. See my answer to you earlier, timestamped today at 23:33, (UTC)"
- Answer there, please. It's an RFC affecting naming on Wikipedia, and needs to be taken seriously. It is not a political forum for diminishing the effectiveness of MOS.
- You write: "Both WP:HYPHEN and WP:DASH [happen] to recommend a hyphen for proper names of single entities." That is inaccurate and misleading. Both those MOS guidelines are more nuanced. Read them again. In particular, note that the examples you appeal to are not of the form we are discussing here: "X~Y Z". They are of the simpler form "X~Y". There are several examples (like "the Roman–Syrian War") where the pattern relevant to these airport discussions is realised with an en dash.
N-HH:
- Enric wrote: "Maybe someone will want to argue that airports don't have proper names?" You responded: "They already have of course, not least previously in this very thread." Really? Where? I had written:
"Airport names are usually functional artificial constructions with semantic weight, more like definite descriptions than fully autonomous proper names."
- If your assertion referred to that statement, please amend and discuss what has been said rather than some distortion of it.
- You earlier asked for clarification. That was healthier! Now let me explain. Many proper names are fully autonomous. Many are free of any descriptive meaning. Perhaps the names "Amanda", "Rhode Island", "New South Wales" are good examples. I think few people analyse "Amanda" as describing its bearer as lovable, as the etymological meaning would suggest. Nor "Rhode Island" as if it referred to some island, with modification by "Rhode". I can assure you that for typical Australian users of "New South Wales" that proper name does not call to mind "Wales", nor the quality of being either "south" or "new". These are fully autonomous proper names, freed of any original descriptive content. But not all proper names are like that. "Southern Ocean" remains descriptive for many users, though it functions as a proper name. Same for "Northern Territory" (in Australia), and "North Carolina". And so also for very many airport names. Whichever way you manage its punctuation, "St. Petersburg-Clearwater International Airport" is descriptive: it is an airport, and an international one. And it is semantically associated with the placenames that are its components. It is not a fully autonomous proper name. It has current descriptive meaning, and is not fossilised like "Rhode Island". If for that reason alone, the semantic distinctions marked by hyphen and en dash are preserved in many sources: in best-practice publishing. And that best practice is what MOS, supported by community affirmations that are endorsed by ArbCom, seeks to emulate.
NoeticaTea? 00:32, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- [The following is moved from above, where it interrupted my post. Don't do that!–NoeticaTea? 03:47, 27 September 2012 (UTC)]
- Roman–Syrian War might not be the best example to use, as I can not confirm that using an en dash is supported by "common usage".[1] (an article that makes liberal use of en dash in other places, but not for Roman-Syrian War) Anything that has attained "proper name status" by definition has an established proper name. Anything that has not can clearly use any preferred style convention, such as using an en dash in certain situations and some other punctuation in other situations. Does the spelling of a proper name include the punctuation internal to itself? I say it does. While we tend to eschew stylistic spellings such as WAL★MART, we do include hyphens, spaces and /, but is there really any proper name that is constructed using an en dash? Apteva (talk) 02:39, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- On the contrary, it's a fine example. First note that most web sites default to hyphen wherever possible (as opposed to sentence-level punctuation, for which many of them reserve the en dash, spaced, like the one you have just linked). But Wikipedia prefers sources in print, from quality publishers. Next, so what if few sources use that styling for that war? Wikipedia has a consistent style for such cases, and it has wide community backing. This style is applicable to all articles with names like "X~Y War" on Wikipedia. Consider the infamous case of Mexican–American War. This source is inconsistent (compare p. 346 and the index entries with the main choice, which is en dash). This one has hyphen once, and just a space another time. This one has hyphen once, and en dash another time. This one and this one have en dash; and you can find very many that have hyphen. So what? No, the space, hyphen, or en dash is not a part of the name, or a feature of the name. It is applied to the name. Styling is applied, according to a manual of style. That's what you do with a manual of style, like MOS.
Not rocket science, in the end.
NoeticaTea? 04:17, 27 September 2012 (UTC)- I fail to understand why the article referenced deliberately used a hyphen for the war and deliberately used en dashes so many other places other than that they thought that was correct in each case. The MOS does not say to make up preferred spellings. It says use what is correct. I hasten to suggest that anyone named John Lennard-Jones would take severe offense to their name being spelled Lennard/Jones, Lennard Jones, or Lennard(endash)Jones. While an airport is not going to call up wikipedia foundation and complain, they certainly could "roll their eyes" at the use of en dash. It is very clear people can point to the current MOS and say that airport names should per WP:HYPHEN use a hyphen and that others can say that per WP:ENDASH an endash should be used. That is not the question. The question is which is correct? It is clear to me that we need to add an example of an airport, and that example needs to use a hyphen. And I can show you 170 out of 200 books checked that back up that suggestion, and only 6 out of those that use endash. The rule as I see it is very simple. "Hyphenation also occurs ... in proper names", to quote our very own WP:MOS. So, use an en dash if you make up a name with two places and use a hyphen if that name attains the status of being a proper name. As to Mexican American War, out of 100 books checked, only three use endash, and the rest either a hyphen or a space. I would count them if I was settling a discussion about the name of the article, but I would categorically say that in our great ENDASH zeal of 2011,[2] the article is now definitely incorrectly named (for anyone wondering, article names are not used when a diff is given - anything works just as well as the actual article name). Apteva (talk) 08:06, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- And the answer is Mexican-American War (36:2 is far enough). Apteva (talk) 08:13, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- Noetica, I replied here. You have dismissed all those sources, but you have presented absolutely no source that contradicts them. You have provided no style guide that says that airport names are not proper names or that they are dashed.
- On the contrary, it's a fine example. First note that most web sites default to hyphen wherever possible (as opposed to sentence-level punctuation, for which many of them reserve the en dash, spaced, like the one you have just linked). But Wikipedia prefers sources in print, from quality publishers. Next, so what if few sources use that styling for that war? Wikipedia has a consistent style for such cases, and it has wide community backing. This style is applicable to all articles with names like "X~Y War" on Wikipedia. Consider the infamous case of Mexican–American War. This source is inconsistent (compare p. 346 and the index entries with the main choice, which is en dash). This one has hyphen once, and just a space another time. This one has hyphen once, and en dash another time. This one and this one have en dash; and you can find very many that have hyphen. So what? No, the space, hyphen, or en dash is not a part of the name, or a feature of the name. It is applied to the name. Styling is applied, according to a manual of style. That's what you do with a manual of style, like MOS.
- You claim that airport names are just descriptive names, but this is easily refuted by names like Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport, Ben Gurion International Airport, Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport. Wiley Post–Will Rogers Memorial Airport, Petersburg James A. Johnson Airport, McClellan-Palomar Airport, Charles M. Schulz – Sonoma County Airport, Chicago O'Hare International Airport, Portsmouth International Airport at Pease, Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport and many others in List of airports in the United States.
- These are not random descriptive names that some wikipedia editor came up with. These are official names which are officially communicated to air transport authorities and then used to create the international airport codes and other codes. If the official name changes, the codes change. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:14, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- No no, Enric. That is all mixed up, like the reminder you have just issued about a question to me at the parallel forum where this is all under discussion. There I have responded to you: You asked no such question. Concentrate! You misunderstand me here too.
- Editors, it is a shocking waste of our resources to conduct parallel discussions at two talkpages. Can Apteva and Enric decide where they would prefer to exhume all of this old wrangling, and confine it to one place?
- And I have requested a speedy close to Apteva's new RM for Mexican–American War. Surely we can do without that Leviathan being revived!
- NoeticaTea? 11:11, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- I replied here. I am hoping that you find style sources that support your particular interpretation of proper names and that you post them there. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:30, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- Still all mixed up, still not reading what was actually said, still reiterating points that were dispatched many times in 2011, still expecting answers but not providing them yourself, still replicating discussions at several forums. Stop it. NoeticaTea? 17:44, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- I replied here. I am hoping that you find style sources that support your particular interpretation of proper names and that you post them there. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:30, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Noetica, I understand the principle you enunciate: in proper names when the elements to be joined have significant independent semantic weight (as is the case if the combination is of two cities or nationalities, for example), then use en-dash; otherwise use hyphen. However, this is not easy to apply. Firstly, it's necessary to understand the origin of the name (e.g. "McClellan~Palomar Airport" could, for all I know as a non-American, be named after a person with the surname "McClellan-Palomar", in which case a hyphen should be used, or after two places, or two people, or one of each, in which cases an en-dash should be used). Secondly, it is a highly subjective issue as to when the independent semantic weight disappears. I hyphenate "McGraw-Hill" because I don't know of or remember publishers called "McGraw" and "Hill". But suppose Macmillan merged with OUP and called itself "Macmillan~OUP", then what should I do? To me, both names would have independent semantic weight, but others might not have this awareness, and when would it stop being significant? In summary, the principle doesn't seem suitable for a Manual of Style: it's not sufficiently clear and precise for most editors to use. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- Fine, Peter. Thank you for reading with care – and for asking a reasonable question and making thoughtful points. In due course I would like to answer those. Meanwhile, see what I have posted at one of the discussions running parallel to this one (also at Talk:Mexican American War#Requested move, where I call for that RM to be closed):
"Good, Enric. You got it: I answered there [that is, here at WT:MOS]. However, your report of my answer is not accurate. Nor is your take on my view of the matter. Ask what you want there, and I will answer there. On this proviso: this unruly and unproductive RFC and the ill-advised new RM at Talk:Mexican–American War be wound up first. I have personally spent the equivalent of full-time weeks of work on these issues, most of it in 2011. I am prepared to do more; but not in several forums simultaneously just because someone thinks that is a good idea. I don't. Wikipedia identifies it as WP:FORUMSHOPPING, as SMcCandlish points out above."
- That is my considered and necessary response to these issues being raised in an especially disruptive way, yet again. It is such disorder that led to the ArbCom intervention in 2011. Those who remember it will not want a repeat!
- So: all in good time, right?
- NoeticaTea? 22:13, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- It is not my impression that there is any disruption going on, other than a group of hyphen articles that were inappropriately, but with the best of intentions, moved to endashes, mostly in 2011. It is easy to fix - recognize that "Roman-Syrian War" and "Mexican-American War" are proper names and use hyphens, and adjust the MOS to show this. See below. But I also think there are way, way too many examples in the MOS. Apteva (talk) 01:49, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- "Proper names"? No they're not mere proper names. The definitions of proper nouns and proper names need to be carefully used, not bandied about. Tony (talk) 02:56, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- It is not my impression that there is any disruption going on, other than a group of hyphen articles that were inappropriately, but with the best of intentions, moved to endashes, mostly in 2011. It is easy to fix - recognize that "Roman-Syrian War" and "Mexican-American War" are proper names and use hyphens, and adjust the MOS to show this. See below. But I also think there are way, way too many examples in the MOS. Apteva (talk) 01:49, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Burma/Myanmar
WP:CONSISTENCY gives an exception to ENGVAR for proper names. The Burma article is in British English and Burma is preferred by British English. Suppose Myanmar is the common name. Is it okay to primarily refer to it within the article as Myanmar even though it is in British English? Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 09:27, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- It doesn't really have anything to do with British vs. American English linguistic/style differences. According to Burma#Etymology, it's about which countries recognize the authority of the current military government, who renamed the country to Myanmar. The UN does recognize it as Myanmar, but the UK, US, and Canada do not, and continue to regard it as Burma, according to the article. I don't know whether the UN's recognition (without US and UK) should be sufficient to change enwiki's naming – I just wanted to clarify that it's a political, not a language, issue. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 17:36, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- (Suppose) media and popular usage does not follow the official usage. Then what? Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 09:55, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- See my comment below. Rich Farmbrough, 11:59, 1 October 2012 (UTC).
- See my comment below. Rich Farmbrough, 11:59, 1 October 2012 (UTC).
- (Suppose) media and popular usage does not follow the official usage. Then what? Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 09:55, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Looking at Google Ngrams [3][4][5] there don't seem to be substantial differences between English varieties: in all of them Burma dominates (though many of them will be mentioning the country in an historical context and hence shouldn't count – cf this; any idea how to tell them apart in Ngram results?). As for the general principle, I'd say that in article titles at least, if Word A is somewhat common in both Dialect X and Dialect Y whereas Word B is very common in Dialect X but very rare in Dialect Y, we'd better use Word A, as per WP:COMMONALITY. — A. di M. 17:19, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- nGrams are only for publications through 2008. I don't think this is sufficient in this case, given the significant changes in 2010-11. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 15:19, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- When referring to official documents or the country's presence in international fora, it would seem appropriate to use Myanmar. When referring to the nation, its people, and its history, it is best to use Burma. However, in both cases, the first mention within an article should maybe have a parenthetical note or a comma-separated clarification that it is also known by the other name. National Geographic uses Myanmar (Burma) for their official page on the country. —Zujine|talk 06:03, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, that kind of makes sense (much like when to use “Republic of China” vs “Taiwan”, etc.). — A. di M. 00:27, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- The country is historically named Burma. A possibly illegitimate government then renamed it to Myanmar. I would tend to favor retaining the existing name Burma for that reason. I could also see this as being a legitimate use of a slash – Burma/Myanmar (with redirects from both individual names to it). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 19:27, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- No, using a slash in the title is about as awful as it can get. I'd rather flip a coin than use that. — A. di M. 00:27, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- No the article should consistently (except when discussing naming, or in quotations) use one name. Should common usage clearly favour one or the other name the article could be moved to the common name. The usage in the article is not subject to WP:COMMONNAME in the way the title is. Rich Farmbrough, 12:00, 1 October 2012 (UTC).
- No, I'm pretty sure that referring to the same country as Gaul when talking about the 1st century and as France when talking about the 20st century, even in the same article, is perfectly appropriate; same applies to Persia/Iran, Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul, etc. So in principle it would make perfect sense to refer to the same country as Burma or Myanmar depending on what time period you're talking about – except that there don't seem to be that many people using the name “Myanmar” when referring to any time period and Wikipedia ought to follow common usage rather than lead it. — A. di M. 14:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- It's my general impression that Myanmar is more popular now. FWIW, searching Google News for 2012-01-01 through 2012-10-02:
- 130,000 hits for "Myanmar" -"Burma"
- 27,000 hits for "Burma" -"Myanmar"
- I can see using Burma for the time period before the renaming, naming the article Myanmar (with a ref to Burma and the controversy in the lead), based on current usage. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 17:46, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- It's my general impression that Myanmar is more popular now. FWIW, searching Google News for 2012-01-01 through 2012-10-02:
Recommend changing "Where a proper noun that includes terminal punctuation ends a sentence" to "Where a proper name that includes terminal punctuation ends a sentence". Technically a noun is a single word, and does not include any punctuation. Names can include punctuation. Apteva (talk) 05:12, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- A noun is a part of speech, and need not be word. Rich Farmbrough, 12:28, 1 October 2012 (UTC).
- There has been a recent-ish push to make proper nouns words only (starting with this edit, but churning throughout May, June, and July). -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:52, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is a common linguistic convention, not just some Wikipedia idiosyncrasy.
- "We may therefore draw a distinction between a PROPER NOUN, which is a single word, and a NAME, which may or may not consist of more than one word." [Quirk et al.: A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, p.288)
- ". . . Proper nouns, by contrast, are word-level units belonging to the category noun. Clinton and Zealand are proper nouns, but New Zealand is not.. . . Proper nouns function as heads of proper names, but . . ." [Huddlsleston and Pullum: The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language].
- Part of speech is traditionally a synonym for a class of word. Nouns should be distinguished from noun phrases.
- --Boson (talk) 21:40, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- Common, but not universal (see Oxford Companion to the English Language). The idiosyncrasy is not Wikipedia's. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:10, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Clearly name and noun are synonyms, but technically a noun refers to a single word. Random House in 2012 uses as examples for proper noun "Lincoln, Sarah, Pittsburgh, and Carnegie Hall". Proper noun is older than proper name and appeared around 1890. A 1961 dictionary has both, with the definition of proper name being proper noun, and the definition of proper noun being a noun that is a name (I am paraphrasing). Only if you want to specify "I am not talking about names that consist of only one word, but those that are more than one word" would it be clearer to use "proper name", but either proper name or proper noun can interchangeably be used. For those born before, say, 1920 saying "proper name" is going to sound strange, as "thing-a-majig" is not a proper name, but "carburetor" is a proper name, and only proper nouns get capitalized. But since when did we start writing encyclopedia articles on every word and phrase in the dictionary? Due to the recentism of proper noun, let alone proper name, I withdraw the suggestion. Proper noun is fine. Apteva (talk) 22:32, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- Technically "United Kingdom" is not a noun phrase like "united kingdom" is, and "UK" is a (proper) noun, as is "United Kingdom". Technically, not all grammarians agree on this interpretation. Technically, a noun has no spaces in it only if we agree that that's what noun means. -- JHunterJ (talk) 22:52, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- To clarify the first comment, that noun is a part of speech, a noun phrase or a noun clause operates identically as a noun in a sentence. In the sentence: "He is ten feet tall is a common expression." The phrase "he is ten feet tall" acts as if it was a noun. A noun phrase is very different from a name. A name is a combination of one or more words with or without punctuation (that much is the same as a noun phrase), which names something - that part is different. Apteva (talk) 22:40, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- The sentence would be
- "He is ten feet tall" is a common expression.
- with quotation marks (double or single). That's not the typical compound word (post office, swimming pool, wide receiver) or noun phrase (little lamb, everywhere that Mary went). Compound words such as swimming pool or United Kingdom are not different from a name. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:19, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- The sentence would be
- This is a common linguistic convention, not just some Wikipedia idiosyncrasy.
- The advice itself appears wrong to me. The example sentence, involving the band "What is this?", appears to be a question, when it is not. I think it should be changed. --Trovatore (talk) 22:39, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Relying on the presence or absence of spaces in conventional orthography to determine whether something is a compound noun or a noun phrase (regardless of whether "proper" or not) is highly unreliable. This ngram shows that "goatherder" and "goat herder" are more-or-less equally common, but they are the same entity regardless of spelling. Compound words are usually distinguished from noun phrases by stress and intonation patterns. However, this is surely all irrelevant. MOS:CONSECUTIVE is about the use of consecutive punctuation marks; it's irrelevant how the first of these arises. The important advice is (a) don't have duplicated full stops/periods or any other punctuation marks at the end of sentences (b) avoid misleading the reader, which the example involving the band "What is this?" does, as Trovatore correctly notes. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:49, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Attempted deletion of 2 commas by Special:Contributions/121.45.223.144
Please, look to User talk: Incnis_Mrsi #WP:_Manual_of_Style. Commas clearly make sense for me, but I'm not a native speaker. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 09:04, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
Moved that discussion here: Apteva (talk) 16:18, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi,
You recently reverted my change (deletion of comma) on Wikipedia:Manual of Style, with the comment:
"nope. Commas mark the end of an enumeration".
http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AManual_of_Style&diff=515271481&oldid=515258747
I don't see what enumerations have to do with that change- in the following sentence, if you remove the parenthetic phrase then the comma (directly after the closing parenthesis) is clearly superfluous.
The English-language titles of compositions (books and other print works, songs and other audio works, films and other visual media works, paintings and other artworks, etc.), are given in title case, in which every word is given an initial capital except for certain less important words.
Anyway, no worries, but if you do have a second look at that change, I would be interested in any of your comments (perhaps I have missed something). (by the way, please post any responses here rather than my user page as my IP address can change).
Thanks, 121.45.223.144 (talk) 08:26, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
- [6] nope. Commas mark the end of an enumeration. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 07:54, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
- In my opinion, in the first case the IPuser is correct, the comma is redundant and interrupts the flow of the sentence "paintings and other artworks, etc.), are given in title case" in a manner that is not expected. For example, if you take out that long parenthetical, you get "The English-language titles of compositions, are given in title case" and there a comma looks quite odd. In the second case the comma is not necessary, and can be used to emphasize the phrase on its first appearance a little less strongly than using italics, but the emphasis is really not necessary. Apteva (talk) 16:18, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the IP is correct that those commas should not be there. I took them back out. Dicklyon (talk) 16:35, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
- I would, however, like to encourage Incnis Mrsi, because there are areas where it is extremely helpful to have someone who knows ru. Apteva (talk) 18:01, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the IP is correct that those commas should not be there. I took them back out. Dicklyon (talk) 16:35, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
RFC:Largest cities or city population templates
There is a Request for comment about the utility/redundancy of Largest cities/city population templates. This is an open invitation for participating in the request for comment on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/City population templates. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. Mrt3366(Talk?) (New thread?) 08:04, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
"a" vs "an"
The word designating the unity of single items (as in the example sentences "one is a number" and "Moses made an appeal") takes variably the forms "a" and "an".
The Guide does not give guidance on the correct, or recommended, use; such guidance is needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.198.109.2 (talk) 02:54, 5 October 2012 (UTC) −
- Should we also indicate that declarative sentences end with periods? I'm all for a comprehensive MoS, but that seems like overkill. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:59, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm with TBOTL on this one. Manuals of style aren't comprehensive dictionaries or grammar guides. The MOS presumes a working knowledge of the English language, and generally only covers topics which may either be a) unclear or b) in dispute. The use of "a" and "an" is pretty straightforward and unambiguous in nearly all cases (except a few words which vary by dialect, such as "historical", which should be covered by WP:ENGVAR in any case). --Jayron32 03:04, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
- English articles#Distinction between a and an covers this issue – no need to duplicate it (or the many other rules that make up English grammar). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 20:59, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
- Putting a link to the article in the sentence might be good enough for now. Contributor, have you ever seen anyone on Wikipedia misusing a and an in a way that a MoS rule would fix? Because if nothing's broken... Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:10, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
Disclaimer
Are there any guidelines on how to include disclaimers in articles? In a separate section or a footnote, at the start/end of the article,...? I am preparing an article here and would like to add a disclaimer "section/paragraph" saying roughly the following: Most of what is known about the rebellion including the exact dates are due to a single historical source, the Shoku Nihongi. [...some critical discussion on the reliability of this source...] All exact dates in this wikipedia article should therefore be taken with a grain of salt in view of their origin. bamse (talk) 09:00, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
- There's WP:No disclaimers in articles, which should handle it. I'll have a look at your draft, but what you want to do is include somewhere in the article itself that the dates aren't certain; same thing we do with Ramanuja's purported age. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:21, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. So a separate section titled: "Historical source" or something like it would be fine? Should that go to the beginning or end of the article, or it does not matter? bamse (talk) 11:20, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- Probably the first paragraph after the lede section; that's what I've seen in most articles. However, if it fits better somewhere else (c.f. Old Tom Parr), go with wherever that is. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:33, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. bamse (talk) 09:08, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
- Probably the first paragraph after the lede section; that's what I've seen in most articles. However, if it fits better somewhere else (c.f. Old Tom Parr), go with wherever that is. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:33, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. So a separate section titled: "Historical source" or something like it would be fine? Should that go to the beginning or end of the article, or it does not matter? bamse (talk) 11:20, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
RFC: shall changes in beginning of sentence case be allowed in quotations?
See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 130#RFC: shall changes in beginning of sentence case be allowed in quotations? for a post archive closure of the RFC. Apteva (talk) 03:42, 8 October 2012 (UTC) NB: The closure was done here:[7] before the archive was moved. Apteva (talk) 03:54, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Resolving the underlying infobox "ownership" issue
The fact that "first major contributor gets to arbitrarily decided" idea proposed above isn't workable is only half the problem here, and not the root one. The other, which this proposal also tried to address, is that wikiprojects by and large do appear to believe that they have the authority to tell the entire editorship "thou must" or "thou shalt not" put an infobox on any article We the Project consider within our Holy Scope. They need to be rapidly and unmistakably disabused of this notion before this situation gets any worse. So, the underlying issue this proposal tried to address is a real problem and remains unaddressed with this proposal's failure (because it reached too far in the opposite direction).
I propose that we add a statement to the effect that no editor or group of editors can force this issue, and that it's up to a consensus of the editors at the article, on a per-article basis, just like almost all other editorial decisions on Wikipedia.
(PS: I rather wish we'd scrap the entire WikiProject system and replace it with something that forbids any kind of "club"-like model - no "members" or "participants", no "projects", just pages of recommendations arrived at by a consensus of editors who care, on how to address particular topics. But that's another issue for another time and place.)
— SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 22:55, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
- Can you provide links to places where this has happened? (I'm not doubting you, I'm just interested in reading what the debate looked like in those instances.) Tdslk (talk) 00:54, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
- See Classical music, and preceding comments in First major contributor, above. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:17, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
- We already have WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. A link to that should suffice; though the problem is not that we don't have a policy, but that some editors are allowed to ignore it, for the sake of a quiet life. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:22, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
- The rule you want already exists, or nearly does: "If discussion cannot determine which style to use in an article, defer to the style used by the first major contributor." The first choice is a consensus of editors at the individual article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:21, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I was asked to comment again. That is not the consensus. The consensus that is followed in practice in WP is that once it is decided to use infoboxes on a particular type of article then the decision stands until consensus changes, and affects every article in scope. It does not go article by article. In particular, there is general consensus throughout WP to use infoboxes for people in as standardized and generalized a way as possible across all the relevant wikiprojects; that nobody is compelled to make such an infobox when writing an article, but that if they do not, someone will add it. (I understood the original proposal here to be challenging that, and I understand that challenge to be rejected. If the wording of the MOS needs to be changed to make it clear that they are not optional, I make such a proposal.) DGG ( talk ) 15:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Thats way off - I hope others dont see things this way as conflict will only issue - Wiki projects don't own articles in anyway and it does go article by article as seen at Using infoboxes in articles. We have tried to fix this ownership problem many times over the years, but still have statements like "should not be used without first obtaining consensus on the article's talk page" that is a clear violation of our Editing policy and Be bold. To think our editor will see some odd WP advice page before they edit is just crazy and has lead to many many conflicts.Moxy (talk) 17:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Not to mention in-article comments instructing people not to use infoboxes, which are a blatant defiance of the outcome of the RfC called by members of that project in a vain attempt to enforce their preference. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:08, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Thats way off - I hope others dont see things this way as conflict will only issue - Wiki projects don't own articles in anyway and it does go article by article as seen at Using infoboxes in articles. We have tried to fix this ownership problem many times over the years, but still have statements like "should not be used without first obtaining consensus on the article's talk page" that is a clear violation of our Editing policy and Be bold. To think our editor will see some odd WP advice page before they edit is just crazy and has lead to many many conflicts.Moxy (talk) 17:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Quote - "Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article". There seems to be a drive here that all articles must have infoboxes, and that the editors of an article or members of wikiprojects have no say whatsoever about what the content or format of infoboxes, which people here appear to want to be set centrally as part of MOS and be immune from all challenge. Why should MOS (effectively a Wikiproject itself) have supremacy and be allowed to dictate things if no-one else is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nigel Ish (talk • contribs) 18:32, 22 September 2012
- Quote =Nigel Ish "a drive here that all articles must have infoboxes" and "the editors of an article or members of wikiprojects have no say whatsoever about what the content or format of infoboxes" - All that would be the opposite of what the policy says that you have just quoted. All content and format disputes should be discussed at the individual article level first - then proceed to outside the article if not resolvable at the article level. No blanket rules by a group of editors should prevail over talking about what is best for each article at each article!Moxy (talk) 19:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- The quote is what the guidance currently says - the following comments are my take on what the regulars here appear to be doing in trying to force a Wikipedia wide standard for infoboxes onto all articles, with the appearance of trying to override any objections either at the article and ignore any issues that wikiprojects raise, whether based on valid subject related reasons or not.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Oh sorry that was not clear to me.... but yes you are correct that the majority think infoboxes are beneficial thus an asset to our readers.Moxy (talk) 20:29, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- The quote is what the guidance currently says - the following comments are my take on what the regulars here appear to be doing in trying to force a Wikipedia wide standard for infoboxes onto all articles, with the appearance of trying to override any objections either at the article and ignore any issues that wikiprojects raise, whether based on valid subject related reasons or not.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- Quote =Nigel Ish "a drive here that all articles must have infoboxes" and "the editors of an article or members of wikiprojects have no say whatsoever about what the content or format of infoboxes" - All that would be the opposite of what the policy says that you have just quoted. All content and format disputes should be discussed at the individual article level first - then proceed to outside the article if not resolvable at the article level. No blanket rules by a group of editors should prevail over talking about what is best for each article at each article!Moxy (talk) 19:45, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
I just want to comment to say I agree with DGG's analysis above. The current practice is that once there is agreement that a certain type (topic) of article should have an infobox, we do indeed put infoboxes on all articles of that type. This is not the same, for example, as citations, where different articles of the same type could have different citation styles. But I also agree that the MOS is not the place to decide what infobox to use. For many topics it would be better decided by a wikiproject. For types of articles that span many wikiprojects (e.g. biographies), the discussion should be on the village pump. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:37, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
MOSQUOTE vs PERCENT
WP:MOSQUOTE reads "a few purely typographical elements of quoted text should be adapted to English Wikipedia's conventions without comment" and later "Spaces before punctuation such as periods and colons: these should be removed as alien to modern English-language publishing.". In to my opinion this includes and percent numbers. For instance if a quote includes something like "15 %" it should be changed to "15%" per WP:PERCENT. Am I right? -- Magioladitis (talk) 08:30, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- I would consider this a minor typographic change that does not involve any qualitative change to the underlying quote. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 10:19, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- It can also be considered as conversion to house-style. -- Magioladitis (talk) 10:46, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- (As the editor who raised the altering of the citation
quote=
with Magioladitis) I'd be happy to see WP:PERCENT linked in WP:MOSQUOTE under the list of minor typographic changes, and preferably for WP:MOSQUOTE to explicitly make a statement on citationquote=
applicability. The general altering of citations literals intitle=
andquote=
by semi-automated/WP:MEATBOT methods can be problematic though, as can be seen by the examples in [8]. —Sladen (talk) 11:35, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- (As the editor who raised the altering of the citation
- "Spacing in quotes can be altered to comply with WP:PERCENT and WP:TIME" would be suffice? -- Magioladitis (talk) 12:05, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- "WP:TIME" might be too broad as it includes date-reformatting. Perhaps the test would be whether a reformatting change would prevent the locating of the original citation; so removing a space in "15 %" to get "15%" probably doesn't impair locating of a source much; but renaming the
title=
of a work from "25 October - The Romanian Armed Forces' Day" to "October 25 - The Romanian Armed Forces' Day" significantly changes the ability to find that work by that name in an alphabetical card index, or Google. The second paragraph of following WP:TIME shortlinks talks about date reformatting, so perhaps that is possibly too broad. Perhaps the simplest would be to encourage quotation reformatting when used in the main body of an article, but even to go as far as to discourage reformatting within the{{reflist}}
as the references aren't there to be read, but are there to allow the reader to locate additional reliable information easily. This would allow cases where a reformatted quotation is used inline, but the "raw material" is left untouched in thequote=
. It could even be suggested that in the case of extensive reformatting of a quotation in the body, that the original can be preserved in the{{cite}}
for clarity. —Sladen (talk) 15:54, 6 October 2012 (UTC) - Ah yes, You are right. I only meant the addition of non breaking space in 12-hour time. And In general I am referring only to addition/removal of whitespace. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:11, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- Since you say "Spacing in quotes" I think it is perfectly fine, and the dates stuff is not relevant. Rich Farmbrough, 22:12, 6 October 2012 (UTC).
- Please do correct the space. And commas reversed with periods in numbers, as the continental Europeans do, and currency symbols after and spaced rather than before and unspaced. Tony (talk) 03:45, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree with making changes inside quotations. For what purpose? The advice of changing curly quotes with straight quotes and single quotes is fine, but spaces? Why? And "commas reversed with periods"? There is nothing wrong with that style, no matter how strange it may look. If the quote is really wrong [sic] can be used, but it should not be changed. Apteva (talk) 04:56, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- So no, "Spacing in quotes can be altered to comply with WP:PERCENT and WP:TIME" should not be added for two reasons - it is bad advice and it adds nothing to the MOS. If it said "spacing in quotes can not be altered" that would be one thing, but of course spaces are sometimes altered. Saying that something "can be altered" says nothing. It implies that they can also not be altered, and if someone alters them they might have done it appropriately or might not have. So what good is it? None at all. Apteva (talk) 05:03, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- What about "Spacing in quotes must be altered to comply with WP:PERCENT and WP:TIME" then? The problem is that it is optional? -- Magioladitis (talk) 17:15, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- No, the question is why would anyone want to refract a quote. It is no longer a quote. Apteva (talk) 22:02, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Manual of Style reads "This practice of conforming typographical styling to a publication's own "house style" is universal." -- Magioladitis (talk) 22:12, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- And that statement in the MOS is simply false. It is not universal practice, especially in respect of more substantive changes to formatting and typography. N-HH talk/edits 22:23, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree. Usually a quote is written in a book in the first place just following the rules of the given book. Or it appears in some media again following the rules of the given media. I've never seen a a quote in any of the popular internet media to follow different writing style than the rest of the site/portal/media. The same should hold here. Having or not having a space between a number and the percent symbol is only a matter of preference and the quote should be written following the Wikipedia Manual of Style. -- Magioladitis (talk) 22:57, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- And that statement in the MOS is simply false. It is not universal practice, especially in respect of more substantive changes to formatting and typography. N-HH talk/edits 22:23, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Manual of Style reads "This practice of conforming typographical styling to a publication's own "house style" is universal." -- Magioladitis (talk) 22:12, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- No, the question is why would anyone want to refract a quote. It is no longer a quote. Apteva (talk) 22:02, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Please do correct the space. And commas reversed with periods in numbers, as the continental Europeans do, and currency symbols after and spaced rather than before and unspaced. Tony (talk) 03:45, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- "WP:TIME" might be too broad as it includes date-reformatting. Perhaps the test would be whether a reformatting change would prevent the locating of the original citation; so removing a space in "15 %" to get "15%" probably doesn't impair locating of a source much; but renaming the
I agree with Magioladitis. N-HH is ignoring the word "this" in the MOS statement. It isn't any change in formatting and typography that is universal practice, it is the specific changes listed in the MOS that are universal practice. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:03, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- I understand what it is trying to say perfectly thanks; nor is it likely that the precise stipulations of one MOS reflect "universal practice". As to the first response, it may well happen "usually" (although I doubt anecdotal evidence can show that conclusively). Equally, WP may decide to have an MOS that inists we do things that way. However, it is simply not a universal practice - that explicit statement is simply not true. N-HH talk/edits 23:11, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Then delete it. It clearly adds nothing to the MOS. It is an explanation of why it is done and looks a little foolish pretending to be universal. Here is why I do not think we need to be more explicit about refractoring quotes than to remove all caps. A politician gets quoted exactly as they say something no matter what they say, swear words included. If they misspell a word, we use [sic], but we do not correct it. If they use incorrect punctuation we can add a parenthetical, but we do not correct it. There are just too many quotes where the punctuation is an important part of the quote for us to be "universally" changing it, just to make it look pretty. I want to know if a politician knows the difference between a hyphen and an endash or whether to put a space before a % sign (or how to spell potato). I do not want us to make corrections like that inside a quote whether they are a politician or not. I want to see what punctuation Thoreau used or Dickens. Apteva (talk) 06:40, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Use of with ellipses and dashes
“ |
|
” |
I don't get this. How is
- France, Germany,
- ... and Belgium
worse than
- France,
- Germany, ... and Belgium
(or the analogous case with dashes)? —Tamfang (talk) 19:52, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe that example should be chucked in favor of a better example. I see NBSP used a lot between units and their values. Apteva (talk) 20:08, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- That's listed too, and I agree it's worthwhile. —Tamfang (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe that example should be chucked in favor of a better example. I see NBSP used a lot between units and their values. Apteva (talk) 20:08, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- is used in many situations enumerated at WP:NBSP. The question is whether we should also use it in front of every ellipsis. If we should, I have often complained that the WP:ELLIPSIS phrase "only as needed" is misleading because it goes on to say the nbsp is necessary with each normal use of an ellipsis. Art LaPella (talk) 20:17, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Art, I recall that this was discussed before. I said then, and say again now, that the point is accurately expressed with the present wording. A may indeed be advisable with every ellipsis; but where does it go? Sometimes before, sometimes after – only as needed to prevent improper line breaks. No, we should not use it in front of every ellipsis. In this case, we need one only after the ellipsis:
These were his exact words: "... we are still worried".
- That's to avoid this happening:
These were his exact words: "...
we are still worried".- But in this case we need a hard space only before the ellipsis:
"Are we going to France ...?" he asked.
- And that's to avoid this happening:
"Are we going to France
...?" he asked.- In a third case, the hard space after the ellipsis is overkill, because there is no harm in a break that may occur there:
"France, Germany, ... and Belgium"
- This is fine:
"France, Germany, ...
and Belgium"- The ellipsis guideline may need minor fixes to explain things better. I've said that for a long time! But the guidance itself is pretty standard, and robustly adapted for online use. Compare the shockingly poor treatment of ellipses in CMOS, which has improved only a little in CMOS16.
- Similar points can be made about a spaced en dash (in any of its uses). When one is used in punctuating a sentence, for example, it marks some sort of a break in sense from what precedes it – like the effect of a colon, perhaps. It's preferable not to have that dash turning up at the start of the next line, almost as we would not want a colon wrapping to the next line. Sometimes it makes little difference; but sometimes it looks awful and might obscure the meaning. In online work, we do not know how different text will be rendered on different browsers with different individual settings (window size, text size, and so on). So the guidelines must be more foolproof that those for more static printed text, traditionally in the hands of professional typesetters.
- ♫♪
- NoeticaTea? 22:47, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I noted that it was discussed before. No, I didn't say "in front of every ellipsis"; I said "each normal use of an ellipsis". "normal" refers to the "France, Germany, ... and Belgium" situation, which I encounter as a proofreader much more often than the other cases. If you disagree about which use of the ellipsis is most common, I will prepare statistics. I'm not talking about rewriting the whole guideline. Can we simply remove the misleading word "only"? Art LaPella (talk) 22:58, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- We don't disagree on anything important then, Art – except that "only" is crucial, as I have once again explained. How is it misleading? I agree that you have trouble with it, and please don't get me wrong: that is important input! But I don't see the original poster having trouble with that word "only". Do you?
- Why not draft an alternative text here, carefully laid out as it would appear in MOS itself, so we can work on this together?
- NoeticaTea? 23:10, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I noted that it was discussed before. No, I didn't say "in front of every ellipsis"; I said "each normal use of an ellipsis". "normal" refers to the "France, Germany, ... and Belgium" situation, which I encounter as a proofreader much more often than the other cases. If you disagree about which use of the ellipsis is most common, I will prepare statistics. I'm not talking about rewriting the whole guideline. Can we simply remove the misleading word "only"? Art LaPella (talk) 22:58, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- The original poster asked why we have an nbsp with an ellipsis at all. Why is a break after Germany worse than a break after France? I don't have an answer to that question. While explaining it, I mentioned my long-standing objection to "only". He didn't ask about that word, and I can't explain why nobody else objects to that word. One alternative text would be to simply omit the word "only", so I don't see what there is to lay out.
- How is "only" misleading? From the standpoint of most editors other than MoS insiders, it is strange to use an nbsp at all. So their first reaction to using an nbsp only as needed, would be: why do we need it at all? It certainly wouldn't be: why don't we use it twice, both before and after the ellipsis? And yet the guideline goes on to recommend an nbsp with every ellipsis (apparently not just the main France Germany & Belgium case). It also explains that we don't use two nbsps, just in case anyone thinks we should. For most editors, an unexpected nbsp with every ellipsis is more of a "Wow!" than a "What, only one?" I believe my previous analogy was "Use a space suit in space only as needed, for example if you want to breathe." Art LaPella (talk) 23:57, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying, Art. Three points in answer:
- To the original poster: It's just a norm of good typesetting that the indication of an omission should come before any linebreak, so that the fact and the context of the omission are immediately apparent to the reader. Such norms are respected by some publishers and not others. Penguin, I think, is happy for all sorts of punctuation to shift to the start of the next line. But the long-standing practice here has been to respect such norms, especially with judicious use of .
- Art, if you think that removing the word "only" would help, I will not object. But I think we should then give one or two examples of undesirable breaks that the use of will avoid. Perhaps those that I offer above, yes?
- In reviewing an archived RM for Halley's Comet I came across a live example that is relevant here, where I had failed to use and the line did indeed break badly on my screen, at the end of a quote like this:
"[The initial letter of a word
...]."- (Just to demonstrate that the less "normal" cases do occur.)
- NoeticaTea? 06:53, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying, Art. Three points in answer:
- How would a line break after "Germany" make the omission and its context less apparent to the reader? What's next, "to do" (i.e., avoiding a –ha ha– split infinitive)? —Tamfang (talk) 08:31, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- Something like the way having a period, a question mark, or a closing parenthesis or quotation mark at the start of a line would. The ellipsis is different in its precise logic from each of those, and a sentence-punctuating dash is different again. But there are relevant similarities here. Also, note that I did not speak of the omission and its context being more or less apparent; I spoke of immediacy: "... so that the fact and the context of the omission are immediately apparent to the reader." Often it's like that: the reader can be delayed, irritated, or distracted if the information doesn't come quickly and naturally, or just where it is expected.
I don't make the norms, and I didn't design human perceptual psychology☺; but I have made efforts to understood both, and both are relevant to good punctuation and good disposition of text on a page or a screen.
NoeticaTea? 08:52, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- Something like the way having a period, a question mark, or a closing parenthesis or quotation mark at the start of a line would. The ellipsis is different in its precise logic from each of those, and a sentence-punctuating dash is different again. But there are relevant similarities here. Also, note that I did not speak of the omission and its context being more or less apparent; I spoke of immediacy: "... so that the fact and the context of the omission are immediately apparent to the reader." Often it's like that: the reader can be delayed, irritated, or distracted if the information doesn't come quickly and naturally, or just where it is expected.
- My answer didn't get saved last night. "examples of undesirable breaks" I usually don't object to adding more explanation, but since you asked, it would add a lot of text without explaining anything I missed. I can easily imagine that omitting an nbsp can result in a line break at that location. But if you think readers need more explanation, it should go at WP:NBSP because it is explaining how nbsp works. Or you could explain some things about nbsp that really are mystifying: it assumes we all recognize bad line breaks when we see them, but in practice I add nbsp only in places that closely resemble the examples, rather than try to guess what the consensus may be on this page, or worse, the consensus on the page I'm editing. Is this related to "only", or is it a separate idea? I don't see how removing "only" would make examples more helpful, because "only" makes sense only to editors who were somehow expecting multiple nbsps, and we already have a red-colored example discouraging multiple nbsps. Art LaPella (talk) 20:21, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Disruption is not tolerated
![]() | This page is for discussing the MOS, not specific users. If there are ongoing behavioral issues that need to be addressed the appropriate path is to open a user request for comment. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:08, 14 October 2012 (UTC) |
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was: "Apteva needs to stop the disruption now" Apteva (talk) 03:28, 14 October 2012 (UTC) (I am restoring this section that was blanked by Apteva. Users are reminded that this page is under ArbCom sanction, as indicated by the notice at the top of the page. --Neotarf (talk) 08:35, 13 October 2012 (UTC)) In recent weeks, User:Apteva has been the most active contributor to this talk page, pushing his idiosyncratic theory about hyphens, dashes, and proper names. He has started at least three RMs based on this theory. As far as I can see, he has not been able to convince anyone to buy into his theory, and his RMs have been roundly opposed, as have his proposals here. I have not had time to read everything that he has written here recently, but on scanning it appears to be just same old same old. I think the vigorous pushing has become too disruptive, and needs to stop now. Does anyone agree, or have a good idea how to encourage a good resolution to this dead horse? Dicklyon (talk) 06:44, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
I have restored this section again, after Apteva collapsed/hid it as "off topic". The question before MOS editors is whether anyone supports what he is trying to do here, or if not whether they have good ideas how to help bring the disruption to an end. Of course, if he stops, no further comment or escalation is needed. Dicklyon (talk) 22:18, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Hyphen examples
Name | Hyphen | endash | Percent |
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Julia Louis-Dreyfus | 51 | 0 | 100% |
Spanish-American War | |||
Mexican-American War | 172 | 5 | 97.2% |
Philippine-American War | |||
Wilkes-Barre | 50 | 0 | 100% |
Seattle-Tacoma International Airport | |||
Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport | |||
Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport | |||
Comet Hale-Bopp | 52 | 5 | 91% |
comet Hale–Bopp | 19 | 7 | 73% |
Comet Hale Bopp | 1 | 0 | 100% |
Bose–Einstein statistics | 5 | 5 | 50% |
male–female height | 4 | 2 | 67% |
1914–18 | 1 | 9 | 10% |
1941-45 |
Birds do not need checking, as they are specifically mentioned.
Name | Hyphen | endash | Percent |
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Mexican-American War | |||
Comet Hale-Bopp | 12 | 31 | |
comet Hale-Bopp | 92 | 10 |
[Apteva neglected to sign the preceding.–NoeticaTea? 08:08, 12 October 2012 (UTC)]
[The above is available as a scratch pad and does not need to be signed. Apteva (talk) 20:38, 12 October 2012 (UTC)]
The purpose of the MOS is to help improve the encyclopedia. The purpose of this section is to answer the question, is an endash ever used in a proper noun/proper name? A couple of dozen examples one way or the other should be sufficient. The criteria is, do a majority of books using that term use one punctuation or the other? The purpose of the MOS is not to determine what any particular punctuation should be. The purpose of the MOS is to reflect commonalities so that new articles can be added that are consistent. For example, at one time a guideline said that all species names used all capitalized words - Grizzly bear would be Grizzly Bear, Brook Trout, House Wren, etc., etc., and three examples of birds were provided. The veracity of always capitalizing all species common names was questioned, and the guideline was tagged as disputed. Quite some time later there are still some species that are being moved from capitalization. Bird names, though, actually are capitalized, as maybe some other types of species, particularly fish and in botany. But those questions are not answered here, or at WP:TITLE, but at each species, and whatever seems to be a commonality can then be summarized in the appropriate guideline or policy. Why are punctuation questions answered at articles and not in policy or guideline discussions? Because there are always exceptions and the discussion of is it an exception belongs at the article affected. Apteva (talk) 16:21, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is utterly pointless. As I've said every time this silly debate comes up, Google searching is not useful here, because the results are skewed. Hyphens are **overwhelmingly** more common in online prose, because hyphens are right there on the keyboard, and dashes are not. These search stats are completely meaningless. It's like going to a rave to do statistical research on how many people wear suits after 10pm. You'll be unlikely to find one at all, but the sample isn't statistically useful. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 03:10, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
- I am only looking at books, not the web. Books are typeset. Google ignores punctuation in the search, but the results can be checked. If anyone else has any better place to search that can be done as well and the results compared. Also, some terms that are known to be correctly spelled with an endash will show if the google search confirms that punctuation. Apteva (talk) 04:59, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
ANI discussion
An ANI discussion related to this page, in particular about the recent RFC, has been initiated by IP user 146.90.43.8 at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Is it reasonable to have my integrity questioned and my edits reverted because I am an ip?. --Neotarf (talk) 14:00, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks very much for letting us know, Neotarf. I missed this earlier, because Apteva hid it!
- My intention is, if the RFC is not set aside as a hopelessly confused jumble from the very start, to request an ArbCom case to sort the whole thing out. I have joined that ANI discussion to alert admins to that intention.
- Unfortunately I may not be able to respond fast to developments. I am away from my usual resources, and busy with urgent matters in real life.
- ♥
- NoeticaTea? 02:02, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I noticed your earlier mention of some situation, a family emergency I presume, I hope things are well for you on that front; but of course these things happen to us all and when they do, there is no alternative but to drop everything else. I will probably soon be away from internet access for an extended time as well. Too bad that those who wish to revisit the dash-hyphen matter again so soon chose this exact time frame to start a new push; it is also a very busy time in academia. I would wish to participate in such an Arbcom discussion, otherwise I fear another three wiki-years will be spent trying to explain the concept of in-house style guides to those who take their authority from whatever advice they remember from their football coach or third grade teacher. There is much expertise among the editors here, as far as understanding the technical necessities of the ever-expanding array of devices people use to access the Wikipedia, at the same time, the people side of Wikipedia, "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit", has not kept up. You would think it would be enough to simply write an article and let the gnomes take care of the arcane details and the polishing, but unfortunately the gnomes seem to be spending more and more time here instead, trying to explain to those who demand repeated explanations but appear not to understand them. --Neotarf (talk) 09:39, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
Species capitalization "asking the other parent" (2 cases)
The perennial "capitalize a few but not most common names of species" issue that has been extensively debated here has been re-re-re-raised in two other forums simultaneously, over at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (capitalization)#Proposal: Bird names and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion#Wikipedia:Naming conventions (birds), principally by User:Apteva, though a few other familiar faces on this issue, like User:KimvdLinde and User:Natureguy1980 make their reappearances. The issue is particularly relevant to WT:MOS because, especially at the NC discussion, a case is being made (again; see above on hyphenation) that WP:AT and it's NC subpages trump MOS because AT is policy, and should make up their own completely independent style rules. Yes, really. This is obviously a misunderstanding of how policy works, but little has been said there to correct this misapprehension. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 13:37, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
Internal consistency v consistency across articles
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[I have restored this section just after it was archived; it includes argument that is relevant to the current RFC (see just below), which explicitly makes reference to it.–NoeticaTea? 08:10, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
As the lead already mentions internal consistency, this sentence is arguably repetitive without the juxtaposition. More importantly, we don't require consistency across articles, and it's important to stress that. The lead currently implies that we do, or at least does not make clear that we don't:
Therefore, the addition of "though not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole" (or similar) is needed. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:38, 22 August 2012 (UTC) The first sentence of this section inadvertently misrepresents what happened. The sequence of events (all on 12 August 2012):
Slim, would you please amend that first sentence? Best to keep the account accurate. ♥ [Note: I have exhausted my reserves of time for dealing with this issue. I see that Slim did not make the factual correction I requested (see immediately above). For the RFC on this page (#RfC: Internal consistency versus consistency across articles), please refer to the detail in all of my submissions in this earlier section. I explain my temporary absence in that RFC. ☺NoeticaTea? 03:43, 7 September 2012 (UTC)]
I disagree with "In groups of articles on similar topics, similar styling is better than an unprincipled or random selection of styles." this has never been a requirement. The problem is what is a group? For example it could be argued that all articles about any subject within the countries of the EU should use British English/Irish English because the EU does. Or all articles on NATO (except those specifically about Britain and Canada) should use American English because the US is by far the largest contributor to NATO and therefore most articles about NATO are about American topics, and As NATO is deployed in Kosovo and Kosovo is not a member of th EU all articles about Kosova should be in American English. This type of argument has never been accepted. One can see the fun one can have with arguments such as if its in a category its grouped in that category therefore it has to be consistent with all the other articles that appear in that category (An editor at the moment is using that as a justification for using his preferred spellings and ignoring usage in reliable sources). When an article appears in two categories then in which "group" does it belong? This is why the MOS has only ever agreed that consistency should within an article, not across "groups" of articles. I am with SV, EN and Darkfrog24 on this one. If as has been said "SlimVirgin restored some wording that had been long absent from MOS" then as it is a sentence that sums up a lot of Arbcom decisions, when was it deleted who deleted it and what was the justification given on this talk page for the deletion? -- PBS (talk) 10:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
There seems to be agreement to restore "though not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole." Enric Naval, Darkfrog, PBS and I are in favour; Noetica and Curb Chain are opposed; Mirokado wants consistency between closely related articles, but not necessarily across WP. I think the more people we ask, the greater the consensus will be against requiring cross-WP consistency, so I'll go ahead and restore those words. I think the lead could use some general tweaking too, but I'll address that separately. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:13, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
BreakThe problem is that the second and third paragraphs contradict each other. The second says we have a house style; the third says we do not. Both have redirects (WP:CLARITY redirects to the second, and WP:Stability and WP:STYLEVAR to the third), so anyone reading those in isolation would be misled.
SlimVirgin (talk) 16:30, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Additional discussionI just want to note that I agree that User:Noetica was correct in removing the discussion that User:SlimVirgin started by pulling the archive instead of linking it, but some comments had been added when she restarted the discussion:[9]Curb Chain (talk) 03:05, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Reversion of non-consensual edits concerning inter-article consistencyI have reverted (see diff) two edits by SlimVirgin. The change in question clearly has no consensus. Editing and discussion for this page are subject to ArbCom discretionary sanctions (see the note at the top of this talkpage); so a high standard of conduct and respect for due process applies. Please discuss more, and if necessary initiate a neutral RFC. If any RFC is not set up in neutral terms, according to the provisions of WP:RFC, I will call for its immediate closure and refer the matter to WP:AE. Please note especially: This is not intended as inimical to any good-faith development of the page; but experience has shown how these things can escalate, and how they can wear away people's time and patience. ♥
As Noetica continues to object, I've opened an RfC below. Apologies if it ends up being largely repetitive, but it might attract fresh eyes and we can request a formal closure to avoid arguments. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:17, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
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RfC: Internal consistency versus consistency across articles
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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[Here I have reverted the irregular closure of part of the material that constitutes the RFC (simply by removing the template markers that added the heading "The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it."). That closure was executed by SlimVirgin, the RFC's proposer. Please wait for an admin to sort out this unholy mess, rather than adding even more irregularities to an RFC that was mismanaged from the start. ☺ NoeticaTea? 22:18, 8 October 2012 (UTC)] The RfC was opened on 1 September. It asked whether the words "though not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole" should be removed from the lead sentence: "An overriding principle is that style and formatting choices should be consistent within an article, though not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole." The RfC was closed on 4 October by an uninvolved editor, Nathan Johnson, following a request at AN/RFC. He concluded: "The consensus of the discussion was to oppose the removal of the phrase." Noetica reverted his closure twice, [10] [11] asking that it be closed by an admin. I am therefore going to ask an uninvolved admin to endorse or overturn the closure. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:21, 8 October 2012 (UTC) |
RfC
This sentence had been in the MoS for some time: "An overriding principle is that style and formatting choices should be consistent within an article, though not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole." The whole sentence was removed 12 months ago, [12] then restored, [13] then it was changed so that it read: "An overriding principle is that style and formatting choices should be consistent within an article." [14] [15]
Should the words "though not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole" be removed from that sentence? SlimVirgin (talk) 01:00, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
- [Correction by Noetica: The sentence in question had been absent from MOS for over 12 months, till Slim Virgin reinstated it a few days ago. It was then removed by an editor, and then restored in part by Noetica.]
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Replies
Threaded discussionSome questions
Break 1
I am not sure if Noetica is still amazed, (21:00, 25 August 2012). But there is a possibility of arguing that while a consistent style may not be desirable across all articles, a consistent style in groups of articles may be desirable. This argument has been advanced in the past for the articles Orange (colour) and Grey because they are both articles about colour. It has also been advanced for the articles in featured topics. My problem with arguing for consistence in "groups" of articles is what is obvious a group to one person is not necessarily obviously a group to another (and what to do with articles that are obviously in two groups with differing styles). I suspect that while the argument about obvious groups is superficially attractive, due to the problems lack of clarity in defining a group, it will eventual lead inexorably towards harmonisation of style over large parts of Wikipedia. -- PBS (talk) 08:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Break 2
Well since the proposed addition has been absent for a year or so I can't point to any recent problems it has caused. I can however point to responsible and constructive activities that this wording appears to target and wonder why anyone would expend so much effort to try to prevent them:
Break 3
Counting votes
Presentation of evidence for and against "not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole"I think this discussion might benefit from a summary of the evidence presented. Please limit discussions to things that can be verified (rather than discussing reasoning alone). I have paraphrased four other editors below and I invite them to replace my words with their own as they see fit. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:47, 2 October 2012 (UTC) Non-hypothetical evidence for and against "not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole"This section is for listing problems, such as fights and edit conflicts, that have actually happened. Practical experience falls under this category. Please show how the wording "not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole" caused the problem or would have prevented it. Contributors, please post links to the relevant changes, talk pages and archives whenever possible. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:47, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Hypothetical evidence for and against "not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole"This section is for listing problems or advantages that you believe would or could happen but haven't witnessed. PLEASE BE SPECIFIC. Don't say "this wording will be misused" or "this wording will keep Wikipedia running smoothly"; say how you think it will be misused or keep things running smoothly and why. Contributors, please include links where relevant. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:47, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Summary of RfC: “Internal consistency versus consistency across articles”A request for closure has been made, and the bot has removed the RFC tag, and in the meantime the thread has been archived. I have unarchived it and attempted to summarize the issues as follows. Wording: It is proposed to add the following sentence to the fourth paragraph of the introduction: “An overriding principle is that style and formatting choices should be consistent within an article, though not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole.” There is a consensus, or at least no opposition, to adding the first part of the sentence, but the second part of the sentence is contested.
Neotarf (talk) 21:09, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Premature closure reversedWith this edit I reversed a non-admin closure of the RFC. Clearly there is no consensus, so the RFC should be closed by an admin. The editor (User:Nathan Johnson) erred in not realising this, and by less than competent summation of the issues. In particular, he completely failed to distinguish consistency in general (the purpose of all manuals of style, including MOS) and consistency where MOS allows choices. This distinction is crucial among the issues confronting us in the RFC, in a number of ways.
Noetica, you seem to be making this up as you go along. There is absolutely nothing in the policy which prefers an admin closure over a non-admin closure. Any RFC "can be formally closed by any uninvolved editor". I suggest you undo your reversions, and start to play by the same rules as the rest of us. 146.90.43.8 (talk) 18:20, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Noetica's RFC summation[This is my final systematic statement in the RFC. I request that no one post comments or questions within it, only after it.–NoeticaTea? 14:26, 6 October 2012 (UTC)]
There have been problems with this RFC from the start, and they have obscured the issues most unproductively, as I will show below. Procedural problems include these:
NoeticaTea? 14:26, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:40, 6 October 2012 (UTC) Time to close this (RfC for re-insertion of "not necessarily throughout Wikipedia as a whole")The RfC had been open for 33 days, and it was closed by an uninvolved editor, [40] so I can't see any reason not to respect the closure. Restoring a sentence to a guideline shouldn't require this level of meta discussion. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
This should be evaluated by someone who is "sufficiently experienced", "impartial", and "familiar with all of the policies and guidelines that relate to the proposal". (see WP:PROPOSAL) This is a policy page, not a wikilove kitten page, and IMHO needs to be closed by an admin, and not someone who is helping out with the backlog but "doesn't care" (see Noetica's talk page). The boxing and summary should be done by the closing admin, not the person bring the RfC. One of the troubling things about this RfC is that no one really understands what it is supposed to do. That was clear enough from the extensive comments. The first time the wording was introduced, there was no explanation or edit summary, at least not that was brought out in the rather confused discussion above. Likewise when this RfC was introduced, the new language was just inserted without much of a rationale. Maybe that's where any new attempt at a consensus should start. --Neotarf (talk) 00:16, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
I step away from the keyboard for a moment, and look what happens to this thread! The subthreads have become impossible to follow; I will put my points all together.
--Neotarf (talk) 01:40, 11 October 2012 (UTC) Does anyone agree with the reasons given for reverting Nathan's closure?Noetica's primary reason for reverting was that a "controversial RfC should be closed by an admin". The above discussion shows that he is a minority of one in that opinion. Noetica has argued, at length, that the validity of the votes should be decided according his own criteria. Jason's "failure" to use Noetica's criteria was another reason that Noetica gave for reverting him. It seems to me self-evident that Jason is not obliged to use Noetica's criteria, any more than he's obliged to use mine or any other participant's. Jason's job was to assess the opinions and thought processes of all participants, which he did. Subsequent to his revert, Noetica has mentioned that the bot had delisted the RfC before Jason closed it. Well, the bot did exactly that, it delisted it; it removed it from the list. It didn't declare that all bets were now off, and we must start again. The RfC was open for 33 days. All interested parties must already have seen the listing. The hours between the delisting and the closure made no difference at all. I don't feel that Noetica, a heavily involved editor, should have reverted Nathan, an uninvolved editor. I don't feel that Noetica has found any support for the reasons he gave for the revert: it should have been an admin, Jason didn't use Noetica's criteria, a bot had delisted the RfC. Noetica's cri de guerre throughout all of this has been "due process". Surely due process now is that Nathan's closure stand, and the text be included in the article. 146.90.43.8 (talk) 12:09, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
This closure was premature. The original discussion died down about halfway through, and the initiator of the proposal made a request for early closure. But there was some disagreement about the early closure. This request was postponed, and in the meantime, notices were placed on various pages. This drew in a few more votes and comments, about equally divided, as before. Again the discussion died down. At this point, I wrote a summary of the positions and started a new section for tallies, since the the discussion seemed to be finished and the tallies had not been updated. This triggered a new round of discussion. At the time of the latest attempt at closure, several questions had been asked, and the problem reframed in several ways, but responses were still being awaited. I don't think it's too fair to dump on the editor who attempted the closure, since it was done in good faith, although evidently without being familiar with WP:CONLIMITED, which states "Wikipedia has a higher standard of participation and consensus for changes to policies and guidelines than to other types of articles" or with WP:PROPOSALs for policies and guidelines, that asks that a closing editor be "familiar with all of the policies and guidelines that relate to the proposal", consider whether "major concerns raised during the community discussion been addressed", and whether "the proposal contradict(s) any existing guidelines or policies". The editor's statement "The closure was neither premature nor incompetent, but you've cleverly exploited my not caring. You may continue arguing about something that no readers actually care about."[45] should pretty much answer any questions about that individual's level of attention to nuances of policy and guideline. It is admirable that they responded to a request to help out with the backlog, especially on these pages that seem to have so many hidden landmines for the unsuspecting newcomer, but they didn't seem to have noticed that the discussion had indeed started up again. --Neotarf (talk) 23:26, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
Since we have been asked for our detailed opinions about the undone closure:
Thus in addition to it's being premature, I think the closure was flawed. --Mirokado (talk) 00:32, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm going to add the text back into the article, per the RfCI'm going to add the text back into the article. From the section above, the only remaining justification for the revert appears to be that the closure was premature. I'd say that is demonstrably not the case. The only discussions we've had in the last few days have been meta discussions about the closure, about the nature of consensus, and so on. At the time Nathan closed the RfC there had been no substantive discussion of the question in the RfC for several days and there has been none since. The RfC ran its course, and consensus was assessed by an uninvolved editor. To anyone considering reverting my change, I would ask that you point out here where the on-going discussion is. For the record, I commented within the RfC as 87.112.91.134. 146.90.43.8 (talk) 11:54, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
FilibusteringCan I point people to our policy on consensus which states
Postmature closure?I thought this thing was long dead and gone. Slim Virgin failed to convince people that we should add the odd clause that she inserted here on Aug. 11 claiming it was being "restored". As far as I can tell, the whole basis for this mess was this lie. We didn't buy it. Move on. Or if I missed something, what? Dicklyon (talk) 02:50, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
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Note: I've restored Nathan Johnson's close. There is no reason why an RfC cannot be closed by an editor in good standing and this editor does appear to be in good standing. The request for closure was sitting on AN for quite a while, the RfC itself saw no new opinions coming in for several days, closing it was a reasonable action. --regentspark (comment) 21:08, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- And I have re-restored it. Noetica complained that it wasn't an admin closure, and now we have an admin endorsing that it was a valid closure. Noetica should stop stonewalling the consensus in this page with non-existing requirements that are in conflict with Wikipedia not being a bureaucracy. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:26, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Time to respect the admin's decision
RegentsPark stated "I've restored Nathan's closure." 1. The RfC hatting summary text should reflect Nathan's decision, not Kwami's. 2. That decision should be implemented in the MoS itself—the contested wording should be reinserted.
Yes, I opposed Nathan's closure at the time. That is because the discussion itself was still ongoing at the time. Certain parties asked for an admin to weigh in, and an admin did. Now it's time to let it stand. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:54, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think I understand one source of confusion: by hatting I meant "hiding" text. My two "hatting" changes are the green bars you see with "Extended content" in them. Those are still there, as you can see. I never reverted anything else, did not change the summary at the top (I think what you are calling Rfc hatting text), which closure the thread reflected and so on. Hope that clears your confusion as to what I was doing at any rate. You can directly check the diffs to confirm I never reverted a thing. Churn and change (talk) 04:03, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oh I see. Yes that does show up before the change that you made. I rescind my "Churn probably just made a mistake." But I stand by my actual change. This section should reflect the text of the editor that RegentsPark approved. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:18, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- And the confusions and chaos roll on and on. No, it is not time to accept any patchwork quasi-solution to a monumentally botched process. We really need to do better, to see that RFCs are conducted fairly from start to finish. The suggestion that the present RFC resulted in consensus is surreal. Only the most committed partisan could claim that it had and keep a straight face.
- I knew it. I knew before the RFC started there would be difficulties. I know the players too well.
- Set it aside, leave it behind, learn the lessons. If that is not done, an ArbCom case may be the only proper continuation.
- NoeticaTea? 08:11, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Seventeen to thirteen in favor of reinserting the text. Far more evidence offered in favor of reinserting the text than against. No the conclusion that this discussion resulted in consensus is not "surreal."
- Noetica, you insisted that an admin weigh in. An admin said "Nathan's original decision is valid." Now it is time for you to set it aside, leave it behind, and learn the lessons. As you keep pointing out, I didn't think that Nathan's closure came at a good time either, and I'm willing to let it stand. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:48, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
American/British English changing
Are the changes this editor is making permissible? Since 2008, has made no other contributions to Wikipedia other than to change American English to British English and is starting to look like a WP:SPA with his editing. While some of it is appropriate, not all the articles he is changing have strong national ties to England. I came across it at the Steven Lewington article, which is essentially a professional wrestler of English descent who wrestles in America and who was most notable in America. In addition to that, I was the original author and I used American English. My concern is that he has made thousands of these changes and that is his entire editing history. A cursory glance is some of the topics, for example, may be like the Steven Lewington article, like his changing the date usage on album articles of a British artist when American English was used before. Regards, — Moe ε 08:23, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- In general, it is not okay to go into articles and change one optional style to another. However, if this editor is going onto the article talk pages, saying "I think this article should be in British English because its topic is related to Britain in ways X, Y, and Z," and receiving no objection within a reasonable period of time, then this would be a grayer area.
- Contact the user and direct him or her to WP:RETAIN, specifically the line, "When an English variety's consistent usage has been established in an article, it is maintained in the absence of consensus to the contrary. With few exceptions (e.g. when a topic has strong national ties or a term/spelling carries less ambiguity), there is no valid reason for such a change." Maybe this person just doesn't know about this rule. We have so many. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:57, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Upon further examination of the articles, if they're about British citizens, then there is a real case for using British English. In this case, I can see why the user is making these changes. I'd say that Teusdaily only needs to raise these changes on the article talk pages if someone objects to them—which you have. Drop Tues a talk page line and say that you've started a talk page discussion about his or her changes. State your reasons why you think the articles should be in U.S. English, allow others to contribute, and a consensus one way or the other will probably form.
- Is this user also changing national varieties on subject-neutral articles? Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:46, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think your message to him was sufficient, along with all other warnings he has received. Like I said, a lot of the changes are good since British English would be better for citizens, but in the case of an article like Steven Lewington, he changed it based on them being from Britain. Lewington made his notability and resides in the United States, making American English more proper here. That was my concern, since this is something that is either American-preferred or simply neutral differing back to the original style (American, in this case). This was also a concern because he has made so many of these edits. If you feel a majority of his past edits are alright, then it's fine, but I will be looking at future changes he makes to ensure he isn't doing this to neutral/American-English preferred articles again. Regards, — Moe ε 03:29, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I consider the person being from Britain to be a legitimate reason to prefer British English, even if the person was famous for actions performed elsewhere, though you could certainly make the case otherwise. I wouldn't write an article about J.R.R. Tolkien in South African English, but there are few cases as extreme as his. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:42, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Certainly "international format" in the edit summaries is misleading; ISO 8601 is the international format.--Curtis Clark (talk) 03:50, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, Curtis, his edit summaries are also misleading as it implies that British is international language.
- Darkfrog: I guess it would vary on our definition of what a strong national ties are. Interestingly, J. R. R. Tolkien used British English, so it would make since that his article and works use British English, not American or South African English. Personally, I wouldn't consider your ancestors or your place of birth to be a strong national tie. If you leave the country and there is seemingly nothing that ties you back to their country of origin other than "X was born in _____", then how are they tied to that country? Certainly topics like Elizabeth II, Great Fire of London and articles on the election of the British Prime Minister establish a strong national tie to use British English. Articles when they are mixed where notability/residence differs from birthplace and it's disputed, is where WP:RETAIN should seemingly come into play. Regards, — Moe ε 06:27, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I consider the person being from Britain to be a legitimate reason to prefer British English, even if the person was famous for actions performed elsewhere, though you could certainly make the case otherwise. I wouldn't write an article about J.R.R. Tolkien in South African English, but there are few cases as extreme as his. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:42, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think your message to him was sufficient, along with all other warnings he has received. Like I said, a lot of the changes are good since British English would be better for citizens, but in the case of an article like Steven Lewington, he changed it based on them being from Britain. Lewington made his notability and resides in the United States, making American English more proper here. That was my concern, since this is something that is either American-preferred or simply neutral differing back to the original style (American, in this case). This was also a concern because he has made so many of these edits. If you feel a majority of his past edits are alright, then it's fine, but I will be looking at future changes he makes to ensure he isn't doing this to neutral/American-English preferred articles again. Regards, — Moe ε 03:29, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
- I have audited the contributions of Tuesdaily (of 500 articles) going back to May 2012 on a 1:4 sample basis. In my opinion, aside from two articles where it may be argued that WP:TIES may not have been correctly interpreted, the articles were correctly put into DMY date formats. Of those two, A Bridge Too Far was an Anglo-British film but for one date was already predominantly in dmy format; "Alone Again Or" may have been converted mistakenly on the basis of the song version by The Damned, but the prior version was also predominantly in dmy format. To me, I cannot see how the editor could be classified as a WP:SPA – (s)he is a [{WP:GNOME|gnome]] for they edit a wide variety of articles across Wikispace for compliance with WP:MOSNUM. It is also clear that the editor has been doing the work manually and rather fastidiously. Specifically regarding 'Steven Lewington', I would contend that many British have made their careers on the other side of the pond, and that it is not totally reasonable to assume that WP:TIES would no longer apply to someone on that basis. It would be more reasonable to go along with how the subject identifies himself, which in this case (according to the article) seems to be unambiguously as a Brit. Therefore I see nothing wrong with the actions of said editor. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 07:15, 15 October 2012 (UTC)