Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Archive Nov 2006

Wikipedia:Esperanza is now inactive. Please do not edit the contents of this page.This page is an archive. Discussion of the essay describing Wikipedia:Esperanza should be directed to Wikipedia talk:Esperanza. To discuss any issues found in this archive, please direct any additional comments to the Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals).

Proposed Program: One More Chance

This discussion has been moved to Wikipedia:Esperanza/Proposals -- Natalya 19:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I've just joined!

Hello! Just thought I'd say hi on the talk page. ^{Well Drawn} Charlie 09:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, nice to meet you :) Hope you enjoy it here at Esperanza. Thε Halo ^Θ 10:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

We're glad to have you with us, Charlie! Thanks for posting. :) -- Natalya 11:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello, and welcome! — Editor at Large^(speak) 20:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 13:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Trying out a new sig.

OK, I admit, I got ambitious, but, tell me what you think, please? --RoninBK_TCE# 10:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

It's HUGE! You certainly shouldn't have a link to the edit counter 1 - because it encourages editcountitis, 2 - it's not actually working, 3 - when it is working, checking frivolously wastes server resources (because it parses Special:Contributions every time). the wub "?!" 10:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Eight lines of code? That's just crazy. Please peruse WP:SIG, particularly this "Keep signatures short, both in display and markup", and also this quote which explains why horrifically long signatures are so singularly awful: "Signatures that take up more than two or three lines in the edit window clutter the page and make it harder to distinguish posts from signatures."

Please cut this down to three lines of code at the very most, and, per wub, whatever you do, don't link to Essjay's edit counter: that's obnoxious and the machine ain't working. What has this nonsense got to do with Esperanza, anyway? Moreschi 12:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice looking sig Roninbk, but it is a bit too long. I'd cut it down, if I were you. There are lots of ways to get a nice sig without so many lines of code, tho I'm no expert on that. You might wish to try the coffee lounge, as the people there know more about this kind of thing, and are quite good at it :) Thε Halo ^Θ 13:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

How about this: RoninBK TCE ? It's only a bit shorter, but it's a start. —Mets501 (talk) 16:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Your sig isn't that bad now, I've seen many longer sigs withing the last 4 months. So you don't have to change anything.--Ed^{I'm lonely, talk to me} _contribs 19:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Howzdis as a compromise? --RoninBK_ETC 15:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I like it. Man, don't get me started on sigs. I've had so much trouble trying to get my sig to look just right. I went through 3 stages:
1. ^{•UserPage•Talk•Contributions•Biography•}
But, then I found out you couldn't have images in sigs. *sob* So, I had to change it.

2. ~~ Scalene^{•UserPage•Talk•Contributions•Biography•} 08:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC) I liked this, but it got a bit confusing after a while, what with the two tildes and all that. And I wanted some color - but subtle color.

3. This was the final version. I liked it a lot - subtly significant, in my opinion. And it makes me look cooler than all the other users... :P Scalene^{•UserPage•Talk•Contributions•Biography•Є•} 11:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Everyone

Just joined Esperanza. I've been on wikipedia for a few months, mainly doing AV and typo work, and have seen too much wikistress already. Happy to help out whereever I am needed. The One00 13:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi The One, happy to have you with us :) Thε Halo ^Θ 13:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice to meet you! -- Natalya 15:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Welcome! —Celestianpower ^háblame 15:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to Esperanza, we're glad to have you! --Kyoko 16:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello, and welcome! -- P.B. Pilhet / Talk 18:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Welcome, The One00! I hope you enjoy it here. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 22:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Welcome, friend. DoomsDay349 22:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for your kind welcomes, lets spread Wiki-loveThe. One00

Meeting?

When's the next AC meeting?--Ed^{I'm lonely, talk to me} _contribs 19:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, when is the next AC meeting?--Atomic-Suit-n-tie^{What Have I Done?!} 00:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Though they are usually held monthly, it always takes a little longer to hold the first one after the new council is elected; there are new people and timezones to coordinate with. However, we've pretty much taken care of that, and have also taken care of choosing the Admin Gen - because the lovely council stills feels confident with me, I will contine as Admin Gen. Now that we've gotten all that sorted out, the meeting should be within a couple of weeks or so. -- Natalya 02:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that cleared things up....--Atomic-Suit-n-tie^{What Have I Done?!} 02:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that cleared things up. Tho', I don't know why I asked, as I never participate....Maybe I will this time...--Atomic-Suit-n-tie^{What Have I Done?!} 02:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict)You can't participate. You see, the AC members all meet in an undisclosed location, possibly in a basement in New York City, U.S. Then they lock themselves up in a cell, and have a very secretive meeting, while one of the members take notes. The AC is then released from the prison cell, fly back to their home towns, and post the minutes here on Wikipedia.--Ed^{I'm lonely, talk to me} _contribs 02:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

If only it were that clandestinedly exciting... :D -- Natalya 02:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, we used to meet Dick Cheney in the bunker. Titoxd^(?!?) 02:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Dick Cheney?! Be careful, he'll shoot you, then make you apologize.--Atomic-Suit-n-tie^{What Have I Done?!} 02:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

If you don't mind, Natalya, I can schedule your next AC meeting. What city do you want: Rome, Paris, London, Toronto? Once you pick a city, I can schedule you a luxury hotel, a dungeon, an underground tunnel, or a basement. Or would you like the Round Table?--Ed^{I'm lonely, talk to me} _contribs 03:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Ed! Could you get us the Catacombs of Paris for the next meeting? I'm sure that the Cabal won't mind us using their secret hideout just this once ;) Thε Halo ^Θ 09:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

This reminds me of The Da Vinci Code! That, or Neverwhere, that was a good book. Exciting! -- Natalya 13:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I need to read Da Vinci. —Celestianpower ^háblame 18:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Da Vinci is a great book. But once you're done reading Da Vinci, read Angels and Demons by Dan Brown; it's WAY better than Da Vinci.--Ed^{I'm lonely, talk to me} _contribs 21:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Itinerary:All AC members will be taking Air France flights to the Charles de Gaulle International Airport. I have been able to receive very cheap tickets to France, which each costs a total of 10,000,000 dollars/euros/pound/pesos/etc. (very cheap tickets). I have also been able to buy each of you 1000 dollar/euro/pound/peso/etc. tour bus tickets to see various attractions including the Eiffel Tower. In the end, all AC members must give me a total of 1 million dollars/euros/pounds/pesos/etc. to cover for McDonald's, cheap motel, and cheap tourism. (I made this trip very cheap for all of you guys!!!).--Ed^{I'm lonely, talk to me} _contribs 22:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

From that, Ed, you should probably become a travel agent! ;) Yes, Angels and Demons was very good (I actually read it first, and enjoyed it more). -- Natalya 02:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

How much extra for the cheap Parisian hookers? --RoninBK_ETC 15:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC) _{The preceding user, Roninbk, is going to hell for this edit.}

What about, Milliways, Karubenjo Theatre or Haven City!? Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 20:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I'm surprised nobody mentioned the black smoke that emits out of the basement in New York City after each failure to reach consensus. My understanding of Esperanza custom is that the ballots are burned after each vote and the smoke is black until consensus is reached upon which the smoke is white. Shortly thereafter, someone emerges and says something like "AG habemus".

How do I get on the AC anyway? I love those cute red robes and hats that those guys wear.

--Richard 18:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

You guys are far too funny. :D If you're actually interested on being on the advisory council, there are elections every three months (the next ones should be in December). If you're interested then, you are welcome to put yourself up for election! -- Natalya 19:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Admin coaching.

As I notices, there has been a serious shortage of admin coaches. The queue list lasts 45 requests. We need a way to solve this. Any opinions?

Exir Kamalabadi^{Join Esperanza!} 08:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

We could put something in the next newsletter about a shortage of admin coaches; hopefully that will help Esperanzians who may not notice the shortage participate. -- Natalya 16:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

We need a new co-ordinator for the programme as well, I'm now to busy to be doing it. If anyone is interested in doing the coordinating please contact me so I can pass on my (now out of date) notes list. Petros471 19:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I would do it, I just get the feeling that I would need to be an admin to do the job. I'm having an RfA next week, which will hopefully be successful, so that could change. What do you think? Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 19:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Hehe, for some reason the phrasing "I'm having an RfA next week" reminded me of someone saying "I'm having an operation next Tuesday" or "I have a dentist appointment the day after tommorow".  :) We were going to put out a call for a coordinator or two or three, but if you're interested you should talk with Petros and see what is needed for the job! -- Natalya 20:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

This looks vaguely interesting. Put me down as co-coordinator, provided this doesn't mean absolute overload. Actually, if I see Highway doing this well I might actually not vote oppose in his RFA, something I do far too much:)) Moreschi 20:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

But hang on, I'm not an admin either. Surely we need one admin at least for this??? Moreschi 20:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I've left Petros a note asking him to drop by and let us know what qualifications are useful. -- Natalya 20:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Is that 13 GAs you've got?? Crikey, that's impressive. Screw volatility concerns, you've got to be an admin. Moreschi 20:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Not really, it only requires to co-ordinate about 20 admins, you don't need to block or save anything. The only benefit to having an admin in the job is they could assign slightly better students, but I've been around long enough to know which admins specialize in what! Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 20:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Coordinating the admin coaching just means assigning coaches to trainees, and making sure the programme keeps moving. You certainly don't need to be an admin to do it (though having done admin coaching yourself would be useful, and most but not all admin coaches are admins). An idea of what different coaches are like (in terms of skills etc) is also useful, and you need to commit a reasonable amount of time to it (I used to do a large update evening every couple of weeks or so and ad-hoc updates in between). I no longer have the time to do it (otherwise I'd be happy to continue), hence why I'd like someone else to take over. I mentioned on my talk page (in reply to Titoxd) that I think it's better for one person to do it, rather than a group of several, because any relevant notes can be kept, and messages won't get lost on a spread of different talk pages. Petros471 15:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

It seem like there's a big shortage of coaches - but that's easy enough to fix - ADVERTISE, ADVERTISE, ADVERTISE. I'm interested, but haven't really got the time to run the whole thing solo. Partnership can't be too awful - what sayest thou, Highway? Anyway, with a backlog of 51 something needs to be done - I reckon I can point the easy ones in the right direction. This rather looks at the moment like a program that's been a victim of its own success. Moreschi 15:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I think I'm the only one with the time to do it myself. What do you think Petros? Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 16:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Go for it :) Can you drop me an email and I'll reply back with my lists of things. Petros471 16:22, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Done! Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 17:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of this! We'll be letting people know about the shortage in the newsletter, as well as in a ultra-cool and new way that you'll soon find out about (it's actually not all that cool, but it is new :) -- Natalya 18:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Resigning

After this AC meeting, which is taking place as I type, I will be resigning from the council. Because of time pressures, school etc. I feel I'm not ale to give my all to Esperanza. Therefore, I would like to step down, and let someody else take my place, HighwayCello AFAIK. I hope to serve you again when I am more active. Cheers. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 16:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to heart that, I hope you'll try again in the next election. Excuse me, I have to go squeal ridiculously. XD Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 17:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

What is the procedure in this case? Cheers hoopydink^{Conas tá tú?} 17:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah nevermind actually, I just poked around and found this bit from the charter: Should a Councillor resign or leave Wikipedia, he or she is replaced by the runner up from the last election to serve out the remainder of his or her term hoopydink^{Conas tá tú?} 17:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

And if there's a tie, we have naked mud wrestling. Cel went power mad one day. *nods* Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 17:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's hoping for a tie then :p --Alf ^melmac 17:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

*backs away* Nope, just me. What a shame. Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 17:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Best of luck, HighwayCello :) --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 18:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I hope I can fill your boots! :) Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 18:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to the council Highway, nice to have you with us (though I'm sorry we're loosing Shreshth :( ) Thε Halo ^Θ 18:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Shreshth, though we've already told you, we're sorry to see you go. I'm sure your shoes will be very well filled by HighwayCello - welcome, Highway! -- Natalya 18:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, ditto Natalya. We will miss your insightful and brilliant leadership. And on that note, welcome Highway - congrats to you :) Cheers, Daniel.Bryant 03:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Allo

Just joined. Now I'm off for the night to start work on an assignment I've been putting off for a few weeks now. ~ Gromreaper 09:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Welcome Grom! Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 09:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I have a question. How do you reap grom? -サターン・ヨッシー ^{HAPPY HALLOWEEN} 09:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I imagine it involves a lot of plasticine. XD Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 09:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice to meet you! -- Natalya 18:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Project: The Reichstag

I figured I'd get a bit of an opinion on this project first. It's actually quite a simple, Esperanza one, but it would make a difference, I think.

I first noticed The Spiderman Law a couple of days ago. For some reason, it seemed to stick in my head. Such a humorous article, should, surely, be used to spread some WikiLove.

So, this is the basic idea. We make a post on every administrator's page - each one by a different person - asking them for permission to climb to Riechstag dressed as Spiderman, for some random reason. A day later, we go back, and explain it was a joke attempting to foster some goodwill, and as a sign of our appreciation to the admins.

It should make them feel loved. And isn't that what's important?

Now, I realise I should've been bold, and done it anyway. But this is the extent of my boldness. So, I figured I'd get some opinions from here. What'cha think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scalene (talk • contribs)

Hmm... I can see quite a few admins who probably wouldn't appreciate the pestering... -- Natalya 18:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Make people feel loved?? Talkpage spam and practical jokes usually don't. Moreschi 18:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Adopt-a-User

I saw that Flameviper mentioned this program once in the coffee lounge, but do you think you would want to add this to the affiliated programs list at the bottom of the page? We could use some advertisement to get this program really started. Admin coaching is similar, but this allows normal users to help very new users just learn the basics, while I think Admin Coaching is more geared toward subtleties after a user knows the ropes. Interested in being affiliated with us? --Daniel Olsen 18:33, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I already adopted a user.--SUIT⁴² 18:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Individual adoptions are appreciated, but I think a nice little blue link at the bottom of the Esperanza page would help us get many more adoptees and adopters in the future. I'm just trying to get permission from whoever's in charge. --Daniel Olsen 18:46, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

If there seems to be general consensus to add a link to it, that should be fine. Hearing from other Esperanzians would be good, though. -- Natalya 18:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

HOW DARE YOU...OUTRAGEOUS IDEA... Nah, just kidding. I can't see how this is going to cause the Esperanzian world to collapse. Sounds O.K. Moreschi 19:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Once we get enought support, then I guess it could be ok.--Ed^{I'm lonely, talk to me} _contribs 22:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Would anyone like to adopt me? (I think Richardshusr) already did. Otherwise, I'd prefer someone my age.) --J.L.W.S. The Special One 01:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

If you'd like to have someone adopt you, simple add {{Adoptme}} to your userpage and someone will gladly adopt you and help you with whatever you need to know. --Daniel Olsen 03:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

RD tomfoolery

I'm trying to restore some sense of decorum to the various WP:RDs which have (IMO) devolved into newbie biting, snarky, in-joke embarrassments. If some esperanza folks could help with this, I'd appreciate it. What I'm looking for is folks willing to watch for unhelpful, arguably WP:BITE sorts of comments (like this one) and politely ask folks making such comments to stop (and/or simply delete such comments). There's been discussion about this at Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk. Thanks. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:48, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Norse Esperanza!

In case you didn't notice, the Norse Wikipedia now has an Esperanza too! I hope it makes you smile as much as it does for me - our kindness is continuing to spread to other Wikipedias! (There is already a Simple English Esperanza). -- Natalya 19:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, they need it up North - the coffee lounge makes a break from the weather. Moreschi 19:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Admin coaching update

All coaches present partners and students can be found at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Admin coaching/Status, if people could add their former partners and students that would help. Cheers, Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 19:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Unusual request: does anyone here know Japanese?

I'm an administrator who's blocked an anonymous IP address twice for what I have to treat as vandalism, yet I suspect this may be someone whose English language skills are very limited. The IP address is 222.225.117.108. The only edits they've made are to formula 1 racing finish tables and they haven't responded to questions. The IP address originates in Japan so maybe a bilingual Wikipedian could leave a note on this editor's talk page? Please help if you can. Thanks, Durova 19:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

You could also suggest the Simple Wikipedia, where articles are written in only the most well known of simple English words and phrases. It might be more benficial to them, until their English improves! Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 20:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

There's a problem that this user has actually changed finish times in ways that sometimes don't conform to official times. At one Esperanza participant's suggestion I've cross posted this request to WikiProject Japan. We suspect this is done in good faith, but it's causing a lot of work for the other editors on a group of pages. If this editor doesn't communicate I have to treat it as vandalism. Durova 21:54, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I can also suggest asking at WP:RD/L since I know there are a couple regulars who know Japanese. I would help, but I'm only in Japanese 1 so my communication skills are pretty much limited to pleasantries and asking about food XD —Keakealani 21:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

New Program: Tutorial Drive

We have a new program! Exciting! :) Take a look at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Tutorial Drive.

In a nutshell, since Esperanzians are a)Nice people and b)Great editors, it seems fitting that we create and compile a list of tutorials regarding various editing tasks around Wikipedia. Everyone should consider writing a tutorial; it isn't all that hard, and you'd be suprised what you are really good at! Once we get a good list of tutorials, we'll find a good place to put it, so as to allow it to benefit all of the community.

Additionally but somewhat unrelated, there will be an influx of new posts here on the Esperanza talk page within the next couple of days post-advisory council meeting; do try and read through them (I'll attempt to make them short and sweet), because there are a lot of exciting things that require input! As always, many thanks, -- Natalya 04:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm completely lost....

Ok. I've just been gone 1 day (Halloween) and it seems like the whole Esperanza has changed. What happened? Is the AC Meeting over? Did we suddelny get new programs?--Ed ^Trick? or _Treat? 02:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Goodness, I hope I haven't confused everyone with all the new posts and such! I've responded to your query on my talk page, Ed, but if you (or anyone) is confused, just shout! The goal was to explain anything that was new in the new posts, but I may have very well failed. By the way, the log of the advisory council meeting is up, in case anyone wants to read the thrilling word-for-word discussion. :) -- Natalya 03:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Gosh! That must have been a long meeting!--Ed ^Trick? or _Treat? 04:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Did this meeting take place on IRC?--Chilifix 04:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Guess I missed something....--SUIT⁴² 04:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The advisory council meetings are currently held using Skype, which is useful because anyone who is part of the discussion but wasn't able to be there can view all of the messages afterward. -- Natalya 05:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Where's the October Esperanza Newsletter?

I had thought that the newsletter was monthly but I could be wrong since I joined in late August/early September. But whatever the case, can someone tell me if there's is a newsletter this month or not and when the next one will be? Thanks. // Sasuke-kun27 22:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The newsletter comes out after every advisory council meeting, and since the advisory council generally meets monthly, your assumption is correct. However, after each new election, it takes a bit of time to get the new council together, which means the meeting may happen a little later. In this case, the meeting happened this past Saturday, so while the newsletter will be coming out in the near future, since October ends today, it will likely be titled the "November Esperanza Newsletter". I hope that doesn't mess with anyone's timeline. :) -- Natalya 23:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

New user needs help and encouragement

Any Aussies in the crowd? Can someone drop by User talk:VPRLC and offer some help and/or words of encouragement? He's working on an article that's been speedied twice (no assertion of notability, then recreation of speedied/probably copyvio), currently as a subpage of his user page. I made a similar request at Wikipedia:WikiProject Australian sports a while ago, but he's gotten no responses from anyone there. I'm sure he'd appreciate even just a friendly hello. -- Rick Block (talk) 14:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello!

I'm a new member, and look forward to contributing here over the next fifty years :)

Currently, I'm suffering from Bronchitis, so my edits at the moment will be a touch low until I get over the awful nausea and chest pains :P. Pursey 13:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice to have you with us here, and I hope you feel better soon! -- Natalya 17:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I hope you feel much better real soon! // Sasuke-kun27 22:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Great to meet you, and I hope that you're feeling better soon :) Thε Halo ^Θ 10:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words :) Starting to feel better, should be back in action properly from Monday :) Pursey 15:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Some Esperanza Pages Are Up for Deletion

If anyone is wondering, WP:MFD#Wikipedia:Esperanza/Coffee Lounge/Games. -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk·Review Me!) 20:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, no!--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 20:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

This could give the push towards a better focus towards the encyclopedia, which is a major issue here.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 20:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I am rather tempted to vote delete - an increased focus on the Encyclopedia is important. The Coffe Lounge is helpful to destress purposes, but to actually play Games on Wikipedia is probably a bad idea. I would suggest setting up some sort of Esperanza-only Games website instead. Anyway, am I free to vote, or not?? Moreschi 20:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep, you're free to vote in anyway you wish Moreschi. It is, of course, best to vote in whatever way you think would best help the encyclopedia. Thε Halo ^Θ 21:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. One editor not in need of admin coaching...Anyway, before the vote gets buried under a flood of votes from devoted gamers, I would urge people to think. Is this really appropriate for Wikipedia, bearing in mind WP:NOT a place for social networking? Surely this would be best on an external website? I would also urge all Esperanzians to look at this worrying diff [1] and realize that Esperanza does have serious problems with its image that these games probably do not help. Best to all, Moreschi 22:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I urge everyone to vote in the way they feel would be best for the encyclopedia, be that for or against something that is connected with Esperanza. Oh and as for the Kingboyk dif, I wouldn't be too worried. He is an excellent editor, who feels very strongly that there should be little/no social aspect to wikipedia, from what I can see. Remember that this is just this one editors view, and I can think of many other editors who think differently (and not just those on our members list ;) Thε Halo ^Θ 22:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC) PS; thanks for the comment about me not needing admin coaching. Nice to know that I'm heading in the right direction towards the mop ;) Thε Halo ^Θ 23:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Hiya folks!

Long time wikipedian, relatively new active contributer. Figured I'd join the Esperanza community as a few more smiles here and there could do us all some good. :) --Brad Beattie ^(talk) 04:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to Esperanza, Brad! We can never have too many smiles! -- P.B. Pilhet / Talk 04:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome! —Mets501 (talk) 04:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome, good to have another member on the team! Jam01 07:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Great to meet you! -- Natalya 12:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, and welcome to Esperanza. It's good to meet you :) Thε Halo ^Θ 13:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm new

I just joined Esperanza yesterday. I just wanted to get to know the other members. Hello2112 19:32, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello to ya, too! I am not so new to Esperanza, but I am a lurker. Just didn't want your friendly greeting to go unanswered. I'm a relative newby at editing, but I have gotten help where I need it from being an adoptee. I got started by doing some categorization, which I figure gave me a great overview of a big viariety of wiki editing issues. Trying copy-editing now. Anyhow, welcome! --Caroldermoid (talk ·  contribs) 20:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry that we missed your introduction - nice to have you with us! -- Natalya 21:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

the edit count thing...

There's no way I can join Esperanza w/o 150 edits? If I did, would anyone mind? // hackmiester (contact) 01:12, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Add your name here. I'd list you myself, but this way gets you a free edit. ;-) Feezo (Talk) 04:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, I hadn't noticed that. // hackmiester (contact) 16:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Participating on this page, as well as the coffee lounge, will also boost your edit count. Not to mention the actual encyclopedia pages. --Kyoko 18:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to throw in a word, it's less about edit count and more about knowing that someone is familiar with Wikipedia and the encyclopedia. Whenever this question comes up, JoanneB's words from a while back really sum it up well. -- Natalya 19:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you would want to "boost your edit count" just to do it. Don't edit just to make edits. Edit to contribute to the Wikipedia. Edit count is just an informal way of measuring how much you have done on Wikipedia. X [Mac Davis] (DESK|How's my driving?) 23:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

New design of this page

I started to design this page to correspond to the project page. It could really use some more infomation in the opening paragraph. The page was so bland, I needed to do something with it. Comments? Feel free to edit anything. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  01:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

That opening paragraph is nice and helpful, thanks for including the bit about putting proposals on the proposals page. Updating the pages in general is something that was suggested and should be considered; you (and anyone else who is interested) should collaborate with Aeon1006 to think about a nice, subtle, Esperanzial design that can go on all of the Esperanza pages. If we can get some ideas of how the pages could be formatted, we can decide if we want to do it or not.

One wierd thing, the "edit" links for the individual sections seem to have disapeared... is that just for me? -- Natalya 01:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

My apologies. The code I used transcluded __NOEDITSECTION__. That may be a problem for updating some of the pages. I changed the box to something else temporarily, so it is fixed now. I think I will talk to Aeon1006 in the near future about updating the other pages and a possible workaround for this problem. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  03:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

They're back. :) Thanks. And for anyone who is confused about the redesigning of things, a page redesign was suggested for the Esperanza pages, to give them a more cohesive and Esperanzial feel. Hopefully Aeon, Heavens' Wrath, and others will come up with some lovely ideas for everyone to see. -- Natalya 03:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I like the new design of this talk page, but I feel that my Massive Page Redesign proposal has been unclear to some people. What I intended for the proposal was that we create a universal template that:

• Uses the main EA colors
• States: "This is a page of the Esperanza Organization of Wikipedia" or something along those lines

--Ed ^Trick? or _Treat? 04:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand, and I was using the same box as on the main page, but __NOEDITSECTION__ is transcluded with the box. I am going to make a copy of the box without it for other pages that do not need it. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  21:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Update: I created a new template Wikipedia:Esperanza/box-header-simple, which is a very stripped down version of the one used on the main page. I am trying to figure out a way for the header to fit more snuggly. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  22:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Can we try to fit in the EA logo and a statement saying somewhoer along the lines: "This page is part of the Esperanza project"--Ed ^Trick? or _Treat? 01:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I figured that the large banner was enough to show that it was part of Esperanza. But look at the top of the page now. I added a comment in the banner and a note similar to {{Administrator}}. Are either of those what you were talking about? – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  02:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I was talking about the generic EA page template as par of my Massive Page Redesign proposal Wikipedia:Esperanza/box-header-simple--Ed ^Trick? or _Treat? 03:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I can make it into a template later. But where do you want the information to go? Personally, I like the top-right thing. I could move it lower. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  14:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I made the template:{{Wikipedia:Esperanza/Header}}--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 20:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thank you. I almost made that same template into {{Esperanza page}} yesterday, but I still could not figure out what you were saying. Now I will continue sprucing up the rest of the pages. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  23:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: {{Wikipedia:Esperanza/Header}}, as can be seen on the current page, the box created by the header almost hides the title box. There are two things that would fix that.

1. Move header down
2. Change colors of title box

– Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  16:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey Guys!

I just joined, and per the welcome message on my talk page, I'm saying hi!. I don't know if you have any place for young contributors (since the is supposed to build community), because I'm 12. If there is, please tell me. TeckWiz^TalkContribs_{# of Edits} 00:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi TeckWiz! Welcome to Esperanza! I don't know about any special place for young contributors, but there may be one I don't know about. Or better yet, create one yourself! —Mets501 (talk) 01:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, why does my green "e" in my sig look lighter than everyone elses? TeckWiz^TalkContribs_{# of Edits} 01:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi! Why don't you join the Youth Group?--SUIT⁴² 01:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

About your sig: I suggest

[[User:TeckWiz|'''T''']][[User:TeckWiz/Esperanza|<span style="color:green;">'''e'''</span>]][[User:TeckWiz|'''ckWiz''']]<sup>[[User_talk:TeckWiz|Talk]]</sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/TeckWiz|Contribs]]<sub>[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/Tool1/wannabe_kate?username=TeckWiz&site=en.wiki.x.io # of Edits]</sub></small>

, which gives you TeckWiz^TalkContribs_{# of Edits}. All I did was change the "#00FF00" to "green" and bolded it. Hope this helps! — Editor at Large^(speak) 01:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Ack! Forgot to say welcome! Welcome, welcome! — Editor at Large^(speak) 01:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

That's way too long, (God I have the urge to write "man") m- anyway, that's a bit too long. Look at WP:SIG.--SUIT⁴² 01:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Not too long, Suit, it's less than 4 lines. — Editor at Large^(speak) 01:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

When it comes to E@L, Suit, just use "woman". Only two extra letters. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 01:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, welcome to Esperanza! --Kyoko 01:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

E@L off on another tangent... Oh, and welcome aboard!! -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 01:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice to have you with us! And just as a general comment, even if a signature can be two or three lines long doesn't mean they have to be that long... :P -- Natalya 03:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi there :) Welcome. Thε Halo ^Θ 13:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello there! Welcome to Wikipedia and Esperanza! We don't have a place for young contributors because we do not categorize people by age on this website. Everybody's treatment is based on their contributions. X [Mac Davis] (DESK|How's my driving?) 22:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

New to Esperanza

Just joined Esperanza after editing here at Wikipedia for a little over a year. Just though I'd drop in and introduce myself to the group. FireSpike 02:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome! Always great to have experienced editors as well as new users joining! —Mets501 (talk) 03:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Cool - it's lovely to have you with us! -- Natalya 03:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice to have you here :) Thε Halo ^Θ 17:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome! —Celestianpower ^háblame 18:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Program: Why Do People Leave?

This discussion has been moved to Wikipedia:Esperanza/Proposals.--03:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Page view?

Why is it that whenever I go to an Esperanza page in IE, the page goes all the way out to a side, instead of staying contained in my monitor view? On my laptop, which has Firefox, I don't have this problem. --teh tennisman ^{Speak your piece!}_{People Person!} 22:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Right now, I believe it has to do with the code for the signature above. I think it will work fine again after that section is archived. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  01:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I hope so!--teh tennisman 19:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)PS-How is my new sig?

Esperanzan Essays?

Some Esperanzans may have heard about Tachikoma's clinical depression and her recent attempt at suicide. Although she has since recovered, an essay she wrote inspired my latest idea. I'm not sure whether it could be considered a proposed program, and that's why I didn't list it in the proposed programs page, but feel free to move it there if it should be considered a proposed program.

In the process of contributing to Wikipedia, many of us will be faced with issues that cause stress. Esperanza helps us cool down, see things from a different perspective, and realize that situations may not be as serious as appearances suggest. The stories of stress, and how we deal with it, could prove to be valuable insights, inspiration and information for other Wikipedians.

Therefore, I suggest that we write essays about issues that have caused us stress and how we dealt with them, and compile a list of such essays. We should have a wide variety of essays about different causes of stress (from being harassed, to POV-pushing, to, in my case, anonymous vandals). As real life is a common source of stress, essays about real life stress are also welcome, and should comprise about 20% of all essays.

You may ask "How will this help Esperanza, apart from providing therapy for those writing the essays?" Elementary, my dear Watson. When a user is stressed, besides providing encouraging words, we could point them to a relevant essay. Besides sending a powerful "you are not alone" sublimal message, the essays would offer some real advice on dealing with stress, something encouraging words may fail to do. In addition, the essays could provide inspirational reading for a Wikipedian with lots of spare time, and could help them cope with their own stress.

I have often been stressed by anonymous vandals in my 8 months on Wikipedia, and should I successfully deal with them (both the anonymous vandals and the stress they cause), I will be happy to contribute an essay, particularly since my teachers and friends have often said that I'm a born writer (though I don't want to boast).

Please feel free to comment on my idea. I will not be offended if you reject it, citing valid concerns. Of course, I will be delighted if this becomes implemented.

--J.L.W.S. The Special One 09:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm flattered that you think highly of my essay, though I still don't personally see it as "hopeful" and "inspiring", as other people have told me. Maybe I'm just too close to what happened to read the essay that way. I wrote it primarily as an explanation and apology to everyone for my behaviour preceeding my suicide attempt, and secondarily to explain what depression is like. Still, if my essay gives hope to people, fine. Whatever works.

As for your idea, it's an interesting one. Done properly, it might work.--Kyoko 20:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

That's right! This idea could actually work... Kyoko's essay was very encouraging to me. As you can see, a well written page about life's issues on Wikipedia and in real life can actually save one's life. I once heard a story about this suicidal kid who was saved from...well, I'll try to pull up the story.--Ed ^Trick? or _Treat? 01:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

This idea, while interesting in theory, would be inappropriate to attempt to implement on Wikipedia. This is an encyclopedia, and as such, originally researched essays about personal experiences and such are not appropriate for publication on Wikipedia. There are plenty of venues for this sort of thing; blogger.com, for instance. hoopydink^{Conas tá tú?} 06:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that hoopydink does have a point, but I plan on keeping my essay online unless if forced to remove it. I hope that's OK. I don't intend to make my userpage into a blog, and I do try to keep my mainspace edits up. If you disagree, please mention it here. Thanks. --Kyoko 06:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think essays about encyclopedia writing should be relevant, as long as it isn't in mainspace. --RoninBK_ETC 07:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Hoopydink, the essays will be in the user namespace, not the article namespace (and there are plenty of essays in the Wikipedia and user namespaces). Although I agree that Wikipedia is not a blog host, I don't see anything wrong with writing essays about events that caused Wikistress and how one dealt with it, for the benefit of other Wikipedians. Of course, essays about real life stress would be more controversial, and they should comprise a small percentage of essays written under this program. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 10:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it matters what "space" these essays might be place in. Every essay in the Wikipedia namespace is directly related to Wikipedia. Personal experiences are not appropriate for an encyclopedia. I would welcome anyone that wants to share said experiences with the Wikipedia community to use a blog and display a link to it on their user page. It's rather subjective to assert that these essays will benefit Wikipedians, for I believe them to be a detriment. In response to Kyoko, I don't think your essay is appropriate for Wikipedia for a number of reasons. I'd suggest deleting the page and creating a blog of some sort and display the link prominently on your userpage. Please see this for rationale. hoopydink^{Conas tá tú?} 06:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Hoopydink, do you think that essays about Wikistress and essays about real-life stress should be treated differently? I wouldn't mind if only essays about Wikistress are allowed under this program. Essays about personal experiences on Wikipedia should not be considered inappropriate, as they are relevant to the encyclopedia. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 06:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

(reset indent)Hoopydink, I understand your objection to keeping my essay within the realm of Wikipedia — you are after all an administrator who is supposed to enforce the policies of this website. When I am able, I will transfer the essay onto another website as you suggest. It won't be done immediately, because I'm busy right now in real life and I have a lot of worries on my mind. I hope you will forgive this delay. Would it be acceptable if this is done within the next week or two? --Kyoko 16:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

In regards to essays about "wikistress", again, I feel are outside the realm of creating an encyclopedia and/or providing resources for editors to better edit. I believe there's already an essay somewhere in wiki-space in regards to "Wikipedia addiction." As the idea of wikistress is just a concept and not a reality (for if one was actually stressed out by a website, all one has, to do is click out of it, and poof!), I'd be wary of encouraging essays on this sort of thing. In regards to Kyoko, I wasn't planning on deleting your essay or anything; I was just making a suggestion to comply to those Wikipedia guidelines in regards to the larger discussion of these potential essays. That is, we're just talking, hehe. However, like I mentioned earlier, you should check out blogger.com or a similar service and try to move the essay off-Wikipedia sometime in the near future. hoopydink^{Conas tá tú?} 22:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Esperanza is to help Wikipedians. Tachikoma is established, and also a member of Esperanza. Her essay is relevant because of this, and I think it should stay. X [Mac Davis] (DESK|How's my driving?) 22:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The issue is that it violates Wikipedia's guidelines of how to use userspace. Her being part of Esperanza or being "established" has nothing to do with adhering to regulations and keeping sure that Wikipedia stays an encyclopedia and doesn't shift towards becoming a place to publish original research essays about personal experiences unrelated to why we're here hoopydink^{Conas tá tú?} 22:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that everyone who is stressed will be up for writing an essay about it as Kyoko did. Rather, I would like to see a voluntary group get together to discuss Wikipedia and mental health. It's all very well laughing at our own Wikipediholism but are we supporting each other as volunteer encyclopedia editors? Could it be that the whole enterprise is hardly better than online gaming, a way of exploiting vulnerable people who are lonely or insomniac or searching for something more out of life? Itsmejudith 14:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm still in the hospital for depression, but I am now allowed a limited amount of time online, and the staff can always walk by and peek at what I'm typing, so I'll make this brief. Prior to me going to the hospital, I put a copy of my essay on my blog, and the permalink is here. I hope this satisfies hoopydink's objections. I would love to stay and chat, but this isn't really the time for it. --Kyoko 20:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

A thought...

Perhaps we should create a subpage or something for new Esperanzians to introduce themselves to the group? It seems to me that a lot of new users intro themselves here, and it's not necessarily Esperanza related. DoomsDay349 Happy Halloween! 03:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

How is it not EA related?--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 03:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This was brought up earlier (see the archived discussion), and it was generally agreed that having a separate space might be too confusing, and it is a good way to give new users to get involved right away. However, we did implement automatic archiving of the talk page, so any threads that are more than 7 days old are archived, which will keep the backup of threads to a minimum. -- Natalya 03:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a good solution, Natalya. I would hate to see the greetings go. Isn't that one of the points of Esperanza? Caroldermoid (talk ·  contribs) 17:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright it sounds good; my only concern was clutter. And to Ed, I meant it in the sense that it wasn't related to the purpose of the talk page; to discuss changes to the main Esperanza page. DoomsDay349 05:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Esperanza and the Encyclopedia

The connection that Esperanza has with the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia was brought up recently, and while it was discussed (as requested) at the most recenty advisory council meeting, it is such an important issue that all of Esperanza should be a part of the discussion. As a whole, we do a good job of figuring out what is the best for Esperanza. So, let's do it again!

There's no doubt that the number one goal of Wikipedia is creating an encyclopedia. Even though Esperanza works to create a community within Wikipedia, we still want to be sure that we are contributing to the encyclopedia. Though we may seem to not be as directly focused on doing so as we could be, as the front page states, by creating a community and allowing editors a place to relax when editing gets stressful, we are helping many people to contribute productively to Wikipedia. Additionally, we have many, many members who are fantastic contributors to the encyclopedia; many of our nearly 700 members mainly edit the encyclopedia, and spend little time within Esperanza.

Though we cannot force anyone to edit the mainspace if they do not want to (that wouldn't be very Esperanzian, now would it? ;), we can certainly do our best to give Esperanzians great venues with which to contribute to the encyclopedia. We already have programs related to this, namely the somewhat obsolete Esperanza article drive and the newly created Tutorial drive. If we can use these programs to their fullest extent, we will certianly be adding to the encyclopedia!

Here is where all of Esperanza comes in. In addition to using these programs, my hope is that this thread can be a discussion of what people feel about the topic, and what, if anything, Esperanza should add so that we can improve the encyclopedia more. Consider this a venue for thoughts, ideas, and just general feelings on the topic.

Just remember, though we should all strive to contribute to Wikipedia the best that we can, we shouldn't lose sight of our goal to strengthen Wikipedia's community. -- Natalya 01:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

More writing less bull? Fair point (says he who spent the whole day at AfD). I try, though. Moreschi 19:35, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we could have some sort of initiative for suggesting WikiProjects for interested users. Maybe what we could do is change the membership page just a little so that it'll say something like "After you sign up, please introduce yourself in (whatever page would be most appropriate) and tell us a little bit about your interests." We could then match these interests to the corresponding Wikiproject. --Kyoko 06:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the purpose of Esperanza is to keep contributors happy and provide a simulating environment for them, so they will continue to contribute and will not leave due to stress. It would be a good idea to ask Esperanzans to introduce themselves so we could refer them to a relevant WikiProject. I try to contribute to articles as far as possible, and would appreciate being referred to a relevant WikiProject. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 10:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we make it a mandatory requirement for each Esperanzian to be an active member of any Wikiproject?--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 20:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's a great idea. Firstly, how do we messure an "active member", and secondly, I wouldn't consider myself an active member of a Wikiproject, I just edit the things I want to edit. This means I would never have been able to join Esperanza :( I think the tutorial drive is really a great way to get involved. I also think that encouraging people to edit in the areas that they are interesed in is a good idea, but we must remember that we can't force anyone to edit (at least, not without becoming Un-Esperanzian). Thε Halo ^Θ 21:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Compulsory Wikiprojecting is going a bit far, but Kyoko's suggestion of gently pointing people in the right direction is probably a good idea. Moreschi 21:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't think it's a good idea to require Esperanza members to belong to a Wikiproject, but I do think that suggesting Wikiprojects to new members will help guide them towards areas where they might feel bold enough to contribute. Some people come to Esperanza after being on Wikipedia for a while; some people come to it as soon as they meet the minimum requirements. I just think that by suggesting Wikiprojects, we would be furthering the development of both the community and the encyclopedia as a whole. --Kyoko 21:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Apologies for the edit conflict: agreed. Cheers, Moreschi 21:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The tutorial drive certainly seems like a good idea. Perhaps editor coaching to complement admin coaching? Introduce editors to some of the more complicated editing tasks once they've got a handle on basic editing. These two areas would complement each other nicely. --bainer (talk) 01:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Although Esperanza is a great asset to Wikipedia, one has to admit that it does seem to detract from the amount of time spent editing the actual encyclopedia. I see more & more people spending more & more time around the project, & although it does wonders for its members, the member's writing powers are being wasted. The reason why people are spending so much time here: It's just too nice a place. Maybe we should remedy this... Maybe place a few sad faced kittens around? Change all the text to ultra large? Have numerous annoying pop ups appear when you visit? These things should decrease the amount of people that visit. On the serious side, I think it's good to have Esperanza, & if people can't divide their attention between the two areas of editing (social/non-social) then maybe we should be having a discussion about them. Even if it's to get the party poopers off our backs for a while... Spawn Man 02:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I actually quite like the idea of a few sad kittens. At least it would balence out all the pics of nice, healthy, cute kittens on wikipedia ;) And, I also like the insightfull way in which you've pointed out that there is a difference between editors choosing not to spend so much time in mainspace, and Esperanza. Despite what some editor seem to believe, Esperanza in no way encourages editors to stop editing mainspace, and we should remember that. Thε Halo ^Θ 17:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I would like to second the notion above that we have a a resource for growing Wikiprojects. Many wikiproject suffer for lack of attention. Wikipedia has projects that are going well, and the articles managed by those projects look GREAT. Other projects have trouble attracting people, and their related articles suffer. Relevent notable articles could be improved more if we could get more people on board with these projects. Just my $ 1/50. --Jayron32 16:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I feel that maybe a few WikiProjects are tied too close to Esperanza, such as WP:PCP. Celestianpower AND HighwayCello are both members of the Project and Esperanza Council. TTV (MyTV|PolygonZ|Green Valley) 14:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't that show that so many Esperanzians are involved in Wikiprojects that even within other unrelated Wikiprojects, we run into lots of other Esperanzians...? ;) -- Natalya 17:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

As someone who seems to have ties to bloody near every project out there, I can wholeheartedly support the idea of Esperanza having some sort of ties to the various WikiProjects. All the ideas above strike me as good ones, although there is a measure of coercion potentially there that isn't really what we're looking for here. Maybe if Esperanza were to participate in the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Core topics/Core topics COTF, that would certainly please the projects. Alternately, one idea which I think would really help a lot of the newer projects is to maybe persuade some members of Esperanza to serve as a kind of set-up committee. They could help with tagging articles, helping with the design of the project page, contacting individuals who might be interested in the project, helping design the various templates, that sort of thing. Yes, the WikiProject Council does some of that already, but it functions primarily in an advisory capacity. If Esperanza could help the newer projects with a sort of start-up temp service, I'm certain they would be very welcome. I know from unfortunate experience that all of that is a lot harder than it might look, and think any new project would sincerely welcome the help of people with a bit more experience. Also, there are a lot of articles out there which don't fall under the scope of any projects, particularly, say, areas of Africa, Antarctica, some of the sciences, etc. If Esperanza could gently persuade some of its members to collaborate on one or two of the important articles from these subject areas, I'm sure that would be quite welcome as well. Badbilltucker 00:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I have two proposals that I hope to begin a reformation of Esperanza. Check them out. DoomsDay349 21:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello...

Hi all! Just joined, can't wait to meet you all!! I want to introduce myself to all of you personally, but there are too many! So, I thought this will do. Anyway, I am glad that I could be an Esperazian. Lastly, hello again! Zachary crimsonwolf 14:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Zachary! Nice to meet you. Hope you enjoy yourself here! You could check out the coffee lounge for a place to chill out, or if you're looking to help out, see the proposed programs page. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 14:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, nice to have you here :) Thε Halo ^Θ 14:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh...hi!! Shresth, you're the one who welcomed me here! Thanks for that! I recognized your sentence 'may the force be with you'!!! Hello Halo! Thanks to you too, for your reply! I will not be THAT active in Esperanza at the moment, I have my own reasons...but if you want to know, you can ask Natalya. But, please don't bother her too much, I've troubled her enough already...anyway, thanks again! Zachary crimsonwolf 12:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It was no trouble at all. :) -- Natalya 17:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The Color Purple GREEN

Hello! I have just joined Esperanza, and look forward to helping out, though I think most of the things I will be working on are a continuation of many of my previous activities... but who can speak with certainty? Anyway, I don't know if anyone else is interested, but I have figured out how to change the color of the title of a page, and have done so on my Esperanza sub-page. Dar-Ape 03:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice to meet you!!!--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 03:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome, Dar-Ape. We're glad to have you with us! -- Natalya 23:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I loved your Esperanza page so much, I stole it. Let me know if this is NOT OKAY. I will take it down right away! Caroldermoid (talk • contribs) 21:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

You may take anything you like! Dar-Ape 22:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

How do you do it? TeckWiz^TalkContribs_{# of Edits} 02:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Copy this text:

<div id="titlehack" style="padding-top:.5em; padding-bottom:0; text-align:left; position:absolute; left:0.95em; top:0%; width:98%; background-color:#F9F9FF"> {{#switch:{{MediaWiki:Sitenotice}}|-|=|#default=<div id="siteNotice" style="visibility:hidden"><p>{{MediaWiki:Sitenotice}}</p></div>}} <div style="margin-bottom: 0; color: FONTCOLOR; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; padding-top: .2em; padding-bottom: .2em; font-size: 185%">NAMEOFPAGE</div> </div>

For font color, I used "green". Cheers, Dar-Ape 03:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Header

By now everyone shoulc have noticed the new universal header placed on all of the EA pages. (I hope). Does anyone think that we should add this header to the discussion pages of all of the subpages? What about the archives? --Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 03:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Great work! And I don't see why not. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 04:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

It looks very cool! I think it should be on all E pages! Caroldermoid (talk • contribs) 17:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

New Program Proposal

Per my above messages, I have created the proposal for The Esperanza Collaboration of the Month. It's part of an effort to make Esperanza more valuable to the encyclopedia. I decided to go with month rather than week as it seems like we could get more done that way. So, it's a proposed program now, and we felt it should be proposed now rather than at the next AC meeting. So please vote! DoomsDay349 03:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

You can check out the discussion at this discussion. DoomsDay349 03:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Esperanza/Collaboration of the Month

Could any AC member please move this proposal to the programs page, as it has been receiving quite a lot of support, and no objections. It's best if we get on with this quickly, IMO. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 04:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I've talked to Natalya, but I think she's offline. DoomsDay349 04:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Done! We officially have a new program! Everyone should consider participating, it should be pretty awesome. -- Natalya 05:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Great. Can we put this under the news section or something? To get the word out. DoomsDay349 05:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

We must have been thinking the same thing! It's already been put there, along with a link for the Tutorial Drive. -- Natalya 05:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

:) I'm glad we got this up and running so fast. Let's hope it doesn't turn into the Article Drive... O_O DoomsDay349 05:56, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

It's Me!

I joined, ooh, five minutes ago so because i'm prone to getting into stressful situations and I think that the programmes here are great to beating that, so just thought i'd let y'all know

†he Bread 00:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome! It is always great to see new faces. I hope you will think of joining one of the great programs and consider adding your birthday to the calendar. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  00:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It's lovely to have you with us! -- Natalya 06:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome! It's great to have you here :) Thε Halo ^Θ 11:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello and welcome to Esperanza :). —Celestianpower ^háblame 17:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice to have you along! -- P.B. Pilhet / Talk 18:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yo, dawg! Chill out and relaaaxx...okay? Everyone here is here to help, so ring the bell if you need it. By the way, welcome, and I hope you will be an active Wikipedian/Esperazian! Zacharycrimsonwolf 12:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Bonjour, buon giorno, hola, bom dia, etc

...from a new Esperanza user.

I contribute far more often to the French Wikipedia, but I hope to find projects to occupy myself with soon on the English Wikipedia as well. It's just a question of finding something to translate, as translating is what I do best.

I look forward to working with all of you soon!

Marialadouce | parlami 20:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, and welcome to Esperanza! Glad to have you along! -- P.B. Pilhet / Talk 21:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome! And if I ever need any french translation help, I think I might seek you out. :)

Also, I think you meant your signature to be:

• Marialadouce | parlami

"Marialadouc" links to your user page, instead of to the Esperanza subpage.

– Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  21:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the warm welcomes, and for correcting my sig. I think it's fixed now.

In other news, I deleted my first vandalism today, on the page about Saddam Hussein. I feel strangely virtuous. I hope it doesn't get to my head!

Marialadouce | parlami 21:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It's very nice to have you with us! -- Natalya 21:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about that. Natalya posted while I was in the process of replying to the others, and my second try at posting my message went a bit awry. Marialadouce | parlami 22:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I need a bit of help, by the way (hey, as long as I'm here... :)). I can't figure out how to use the {{tea}} on Daniel Olsen's page. I added him to the Wikipedia:A nice cup of tea and a sit down page and would like to let him know. I'm afraid I'm a bit of a doofus when it comes to the technical side of Wikipedia, as evidenced by my sig gaffe earlier. Thanks in advance! Marialadouce | parlami 22:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Marialadouce, from someone who participates in the French Wikipédia but is much more active here. As for your question, have you tried typing {{subst:tea}} on Daniel's userpage/talk page? We're glad to have you in Esperanza and in the English language Wikipedia. --Kyoko 23:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Kyoko! It was the "subst" that was missing from the template. Marialadouce | parlami 23:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

My Esperanza link

Is it okay if I have a green "K" in my name? I don't have an "e" in there..... Kyo cat^(Talk) 18:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

It certainly is ok! Nice sig, by the way :) Thε Halo ^Θ 18:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

¡Gracias! Kyo cat^(Talk) 00:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, can someone help me with my userpage? The drop down table that says "All my userboxes" is part of the problem. The orange background of the entire page stops at the table, even though there is more content at the bottom? Don't understand what I just said? (I don't either) Please check my userpage! ¡Gracias! Kyo cat^(Talk) 04:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see it. Uh... You change the background color in the table. It should say on yours currently <background color= "none"> or something similar. Just change it to orange. Nice page by the way.--SUIT^{What? 42} 04:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I wish it could look better though....but thanks for the help and compliment! See my wikipals section of the userbox table thing for a surprise in about 5 minutes! Kyo cat^(Talk) 04:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

You had some extra code. I removed it. Check your page now. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  04:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you so much! Both of you go on my Wikipals section! Kyo cat^(Talk) 04:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

No problem. If you need anymore help with your page. Leave me a message. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  06:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Motion to Repeal Charter

As sumbitted. WikieZach| talk 22:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Where? - Che Nuevara 04:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't find it either :( Thε Halo ^Θ 13:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I figured that the header ("Motion to Repeal Charter") was in fact his motion. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  21:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh ... maybe someone wants to add some substance to this? Or is this a joke? I can't really be sure ... - Che Nuevara 22:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I need some clarification here...--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 22:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this would be a joke. Wikizach is a serious person, from my experience with him. It's probably best to leave this here for the while, and see if he, or anyone else who agrees with repealing the charter, would like to say anything. Thε Halo ^Θ 22:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Halo above. Note that per the Charter, WikiZach has every right to motion to repeal the charter. (He can use the charter against itself at his own will to repeal the charter!) Anyway, according to the Charter, we need the dissent of 3 EA members, in which the discussion turns to straw poll.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 22:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware of that, and I'd be ready to have a charter discussion if one came up. I'd just really like to know why. - Che Nuevara 22:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Kindness

I just created an essay (more like a story) on User:Ed/Kindness. In your opinion, should this become something that the typical Esperanzian should think about everyday?--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 04:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

(sigh)I'm getting bored tonight. Whenever I'm online, virtually no one's here! I have a question: is the IRC channel live-chat? And if so, how do I get there? I keep having trouble getting on the IRC channel.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 04:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is, but the Esperanza channel is seldom well-populated. (#wikipedia and #wikipedia-en generally have pretty good attendance, though.) You need to log into freenode.net's irc server, and then you just join #wikipedia-esperanza. - Che Nuevara 04:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I should probably point out that an essay that I had written and posted in my userspace was politely objected to as being inappropriate for hosting on Wikipedia. I eventually moved the essay to another website. --Kyoko 14:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info! Now we should move back to the topic about the story...--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 22:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Dalbury's RfA

My RfA passed with a tally of 71/1/0. Thank you very much for your support. I hope that my performance as an admin will not disappoint you. Please let me know if you see me doing anything inappropriate. -- Donald Albury 02:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations! --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 04:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations!--SUIT^{What? 42} 04:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Congrats, hope you do a good job ;-).--Skully Collins ^Edits 07:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations, you got your 'promotion'!! Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Signature help

Greetings all. I joined recently, but haven't really done much here in light of trying to get "Weird Al" Yankovic up to FA status (mission accomplished!). Anyway, I was wondering how to get the green E in my signature...I really don't understand the instructions in Wikipedia:Esperanza/So you've joined Esperanza..., because when I follow that, I get some pretty non-desired results. Anyway, any help in getting that greene into my name would be a good help! ~ Gromreaper 03:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

'''[[User:Gromreaper|Gromr]][[User:Gromreaper/Esperanza|<font color="green">e]][[User:Gromreaper|aper]]'''
gives: Gromreaper.
copy the code into the "signature" box under "my preferences", and click the "raw signature" box.
Hope that helped! — Editor at Large^(speak) 03:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, E@L!! ~ Gromreaper 03:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

You are most welcome :-) Would you like the talk page link as well? You could have
~ Gromreaper, (~ '''[[User:Gromreaper|Gromr]][[User:Gromreaper/Esperanza|<font color="green">e</font>]][[User talk:Gromreaper|aper]]'''), which gives a link to your talk page in the last half.
Also, if you want your sig to be blue and green all the time, you need to add the <font color="blue"> tags to the link titles. — Editor at Large^(speak) 03:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Just rember that "blue" is not the same as "navy" or "midnightblue". Colors can be found here. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 04:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Yay, how's this? Thanks for your help, E@L and SY! ~~ Gromreaper^(Talk)/_(Cont) 06:39, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Looking good!! -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 07:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I had this question too, but I am not as fast on the up-take as gromreaper, apparently. I would like my siggie to be midnight blue and green carol blue dermoid green... but I feel a little stupid about it still. Will you humor my and help me too? TIA! Caroldermoid (talk ·  contribs) 17:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

and just to show how incompetent I am being, I messed up my (cont/talk) part of my signature in trying to do this and can't get it back! I did manage to get the green 'e' onto my userpage though ... just not into my official signature. Sigh. caroldermoid 19:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC) but used a template to fix it back. but still no green 'e' Caroldermoid (talk ·  contribs) 19:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC) This is what I tried to put in "raw" but it rejects the html when I go to save it: "Caroldermoid(talk• contribs)"

Hey, Carol. Is this the one you want? Caroldermoid(talk• contribs)

Zacharycrimsonwolf 12:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Minor correction to Zach's posted one (the font color has to go inside the link otherwise it does not work, although it is hard to tell if it does using blue):

• Caroldermoid (talk • contribs)

Other variations:

• Caroldermoid (talk • contribs)
• Caroldermoid (talk • contribs)

– Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  15:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Caroldermoid (talk • contribs) 19:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

No problem. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  18:30, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Question. I can't understand the part about 'the font color has to into the link...' part, HW(Heaven's wrath). Could you be so kind as to explain it to me again? Thanks!Zacharycrimsonwolf 12:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Take your own signature for example.

[[User:Zachary crimsonwolf|<font color="lightblue" face="comic sans ms">'''Zachary'''</font>]]

See how you added the <font> tags inside the brackets? If they are added outside, such as:

<font color="lightblue" face="comic sans ms">[[User:Zachary crimsonwolf|'''Zachary''']]</font>

It creates Zachary, which is still what you wanted it to do. But if you want to add other text, the link will not change color. (e.g. "Hi, I am not Zachary") For Caroldermoid's signature it requires placing it on the inside of the brakets, because it cannot modify more than one thing. I hope this helps. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  23:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Esperanza...under fire?

I'm noticing a lot of users aggravated with Esperanza. Glancing at Talk:Esperanza and the discussion about the self reference, I've seen comments about how Esperanza is foolish, immature, infantile, etc., etc. I'm also seeing a snowball effect going here; the lounge games were deleted, with good reason, however, the arguments presented there appear to me that some would have the coffee lounge deleted. From there, the next logical step is the deletion of Esperanza itself. I hear a lot about how Esperanza is a "stupid club", and it disturbs me. The very people who say this are those most in need of a sense of community. What people fail to understand constantly is that Wikipedia is more than your average encyclopedia; we are not a small, select group of stodgy experts. We are a massive, diverse, group of average people banded together for the common cause of bringing free information to the world. And, being average, ordinary people we have the need of support and companionship. True, such companionship could come from chat rooms, or even real people, and there's no reason why it shouldn't! But, having a fellow writer, a friend standing alongside you in the hope that this young, criticized, and in some cases, hated encyclopedia might usher in a knowledge revolution, to stand by you and give you their support could be a hundred times more relieving and powerful to a Wikipedian than any other type of support. Anyway, I wanted to get your opinions on this and see if it was possible to issue a statement somewhere affirming Esperanza to the Wikipedia community. DoomsDay349 18:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Good speach.--SUIT⁴² 18:44, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Suit. I'd like your opinions, though, as well. While of course every Esperanzians opinion will be counted, I would especially like the governing body to respond. I understand concerns of time. DoomsDay349 18:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's any great need to panic. For a while, Esperanza probably did become too like a WP:NOTish chat room - what's happening now is merely the reeling back of that, a natural reversion if you like. A public statement would probably be going a bit too far! Basically, all that's really needed for image reversal to take place is for more Esperanzians to help out with building the encyclopedia, and quit playing games. Oh, and less weird dog noises in the Coffee Lounge would probably help. Or whatever those noises were/are. Best to all, Moreschi 18:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Aye. Active as I am in the coffee lounge, it gets really silly sometimes. I'd hate to create policy, but it really should be more sophisticated...by that, I mean yes, no more "Dog Barking Noises". Right now, Esperanza is seen as "the fun place to hang out". That's a bad image, on Wikipedia at least. I'd like to see more of a "the place where good editors relieve stress and get help for encyclopedia building". It might seem radical, but perhaps even patrollers to monitor the coffee lounge and check for those spending too much time there and not enough editing to give a friendly warning to them. I'm not aware of all of our Esperanza programs, but what I would really, really like to see is an Esperanza collaboration of the week, where every Esperanzian would get together to improve an article in poor shape. That would really fix our image. DoomsDay349 19:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that's talking!! I couldn't agree more. Esperanza weekly/monthly collaboration - great idea! Why not? Each article selected must improve up to GA status, at least, by the end of the month. Week probably isn't giving enough time. Also agree about coffee lounge patrolling and friendly warnings, and cutting down on Dog noises. Any other ideas, anyone? Moreschi 19:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Should we hammer these programs out then? Perhaps in the proposal page? I'd be glad to head up the coffee lounge patrolling system. DoomsDay349 19:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Moreschi. Don't panic. In the case of having a link to here on the Esperanza article, I think that people have said that is wrong, quite rightly. We shouldn't self reference, when we can avoid it. It kind of reminds me of a speech Redvers made:

• ...But I dare say that a major war over a fundamental point (say, for instance, if Jimbo announced the choice was between bankrupcy and becoming the Googlepedia) then we would again see Esperanzans there, in the background, in the foreground, loud, quiet, on email, on Wiki, on IRC, wherever and whenever we were needed, just doing that tiny, tiny 0.0001% thing, that voice that says "thank you for your contribution. Have a barnstar. What a nice user page. Have you thought of being an admin. Don't worry that your contribution has been rejected loudly. We valued it. Thanks."

Personally, I think Esperanza is ok right now. I feel we're heading in the right direction (more or less). Things like the Tutorial drive are really getting along good, and showing we do have a lot to ofer to the encyclopedia. You may also be interested in Esperanza article drive, though it is pretty dead now. I think the important thing is not to panic, and keep doing what we're doing, because we do make a difference, to stressed users, to our encyclopedia, and hold our heads high while we're doing it. By continuing to do what we do well, we can weather the storms of Editors who don't hold us in high regard, and prove that we do belong here. Thε Halo ^Θ 19:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

And yet, it's hard to bear the storms of those who don't like us. I suppose it is the will of mankind to find that which is great and find the flaws and despise it for them. It's just that...our inaction gets us no where, and yet our action may damn us. I still think we need change, but we must tread lightly. Basically, I'm sick of the idea of Esperanzians being a group immature, un-encyclopedic people. We need to prove ourselves, somehow, and continuing what we're doing won't help. Not that what's we're doing is wrong, but people keep misconstruing it! They don't see how valuable it is! We need to do something... the question is, what? DoomsDay349 19:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

So what's the next step? An Esperanza Revolution? I'm all for that.--SUIT⁴² 19:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The above two programs seem like a good way to start, and maybe we'll see what comes of that. DoomsDay349 19:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much per Halo. There are problems, however, not the least of which is a lack of focus on the Encyclopedia. To that extent I agree with large chunks of DoomsDay349's proposals - whom, BTW, I must congratulate on demonstrating extraordinary maturity and wisdom when a subpage of his got nominated for deletion. Something does need to be done to show what Esperanza can offer the Encyclopedia. In fact, I would go further. This is not merely about image. Esperanza must do more for the encyclopedia. Cheers, Moreschi 19:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks, Moreschi. I'm going to bring these up on the proposals page, and that way we can see what everyone else thinks. Right know, we have Esperanza Collaboration of the Week and Coffee Lounge Patrol. I'll write up the details and put it there. DoomsDay349 19:51, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Quick question; to propose a program, we put it in the "In Development" section, correct? That's what I'll do now, please move if I am wrong. DoomsDay349 19:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Eh, I think it goes under "Program Proposals" - the page is upside down - but I'm not sure, someone had better confirm this. Moreschi 20:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so they're up and we should get started discussing these. DoomsDay349 20:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I hope that I can help everyone not worry as much about Esperanza, for Esperanza should be a place to relax, not to worry about what is going to happen. Though The Halo has already said it, I do not feel that Esperanza is in much danger of being deleted, being considered for deletion, or even being generally opposed. First of all, the most important thing is that every Esperanzian knows how valuable Esperanza is. Otherwise, we would not be here. We know that it helps the community, which (not to quote the front page or anything) helps the encyclopedia. Many people who are not personally part of Esperanza also recognize this. Over the days it went on, I read through the entire Coffee Lounge games deletion discussion, and the general impression that I got was that people recognize that Esperanza as a whole is a good thing. Of course, there are and always will be people who disagree, but such is the case with nearly every issue.

That being said, there's certainly nothing wrong with working to make Esperanza help more directly with the encyclopedia. The aforementioned Tutorial Drive has taken off to a great start, and I would love to see the Esperanza drive relivened with the new proposed program. As these programs grow, I'm sure we will come up with more and more ideas about how to create both the community and the encyclopedia. We should never forget either of these goals. We help create a community because that benefits the encyclopedia, and without the encyclopedia, there would be no community. Both are vitally important.

I'm really happily impressed with this discussion, and I love that whenever we run into a problem, we work to fix it. Even through the tough times, Esperanza is awesome. Thanks, as always, -- Natalya 21:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I am totally in the NOT TO WORRY too much club. I only see one or two editors trashing WP:Esperanza. There are always people like that around. Having said that, I did add a NO vote to the WP:Esperanza link being on the disambiguation page of Esperanza. That does violate the self-ref guideline. Caroldermoid (talk • contribs) 18:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Hear, hear! Good speech, you all! Now, in case Esperanza IS in danger of being deleted, I say we band together and OBJECT!(Unless that is already done) What will Wikipedia be without Esperanza? We are a group of people who help other users, raise Wikipedia's standard, and, at the same time, provide a place for people to chill in. Without Esperanza, Wikipedia will fall back in line. Keep up the good work, all of you! Come on and protect Esperanza! If anyone can, its you!! Zacharycrimsonwolf 12:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow. I can't believe I was actually right...should've listened closer. Damn this sucks. DoomsDay349 23:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The time has come, Esperazians! We are now a target for deletion. I want to let you know, DoomsDay, that you have my full support in whatever actions you take. Natalya, I trust that you will take the right actions too. So, Esperazians, lets work together to make whoever that is in charge to change their minds! Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 13:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Esperanza up for deletion

If you haven't seen the MFD sign on the page, Esperanza is up for deletion as well as all the subpages. Go to the main Esperanza page, click "this articles entry, and voice your opinion. I of course disagree with it on all points except the Coffee Lounge, which I think should be deleted. TeckWiz^TalkContribs_{# of Edits} 17:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

This is madness. Esperanza is perhaps the most successful organisations of its type. I agree that the Coffee Lounge is next to useless, but the rest should be maintained - • The Giant Puffin • 18:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Random Smiley Award Project

For the last two weeks, I've been doling out Random Smileys - a variation on the Random Acts of Kindness philosophy, except in the form of those yellow "Have A Nice Day" smileys. I've received many kind thanks and well-wishes, and was referred to this group by one editor.

If anyone is willing to help take part in the project, please go to User:Pedia-I/SmileyAward and scroll down to see the list of variant templates which you can place on User or User:Talk pages. In the works are several upcoming models, including a new Chocolate Chip Cookie Smiley - with chocolate chips forming the familiar face, this time on a cookie. This would work especially well for those who are allergic to the "Have A Nice Day" concept as a result of overexposure during the 1970s.

Thus far I've been doling them out to randomly-picked editors, usually by starting with one user and then picking one of the recent people who have edited that person's talk page, then repeating the process. Any other random or pseudorandom method would work.

If several volunteers each add 5 - 10 Smileys per day, before long Wikipedia will be teaming with the bright yellow faces. It will be a happier, sunnier place in which to work.

The template codes for the various current types of Smileys are as follows (pick one):

• {{User:Pedia-I/SmileyAward1}}
• {{User:Pedia-I/SmileyAward2}}
• {{User:Pedia-I/SmileyAward3}}
• {{User:Pedia-I/SmileyAward4}}

Heartfelt thanks to those who are willing to help out. Pedia-I 21:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Deletion?

Stop the press. Esperanza is up for deletion! Get over to its Deletion Page and pledge your support!

Cheers

anthony^[cfc]

Pledge our support??? Is such unthinking blind unquestioning thinking really the way forward for Esperanza and Wikipedia? The comments - deletes - made are constructive criticism by fine editors and should be respected as such, not regarded as the ravings of maniacs. Moreschi 19:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely no vote mindless stacking, please. There are other solutions possible. I encourage everyone to discuss them on the deletion's talk page. --Misza13 19:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Just because one is in Esperanza does not mean that one most vote For Esperanza. One must vote for Wikipedia's best interests. Thε Halo ^Θ 19:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

May I pile on my agreement? I don't think that mindless anything is healthy, especially voting when a process isn't a vote. Regards, —Celestianpower ^háblame 19:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

What's the point of trying to stack votes that aren't votes? Besides, if you try to create a stampede of Esperanza editors to flood the MfD it would only serve to make the project look like what the opposition claims we do. --RoninBK_ETC 20:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi everyone. :) I know this feels like a pretty stressful time, and everyone should certainly express his or her own opinion on the MfD page, but please remember that when you are discussing things there, you are representing Esperanza. Yes, it is a heated issue, and yes, many of us vehemently do not want Esperanza to be deleted, but remember, the most important thing is to be respectful to everyone, even if they completely disagree with you. And try to be confident; even if Esperanza goes through some changes, we all support it, and there's nothing more important. Thanks, -- Natalya 23:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• If the discussion turns up as keep or no consensus, I would like to motion for a discussion among all members of Esperanza. This discussion will put all subpages of Esperanza under a heavy examination, and the EA members will discuss the merits and the faults of each subpage we have. The massive deletion on Esperanza is definitely an issue here, and it must be discussed. We also need to have another look at the Charter and our statment on the Front Page.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 01:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I support Ed's idea. Maybe even ask the nominater of the MFD to give us 2 weeks to completly overhaul Ezperanza, and then decide if it's still worth deleting..

In that case, I'll get the discussion pages ready. Would someone like to volunteer to affix {{Wikipedia:Esperanza/Header}} on everything that links here?. That would be greatly appreciated.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 02:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I said this at the Coffee Lounge, and better say it here too: The most important thing we can do right now is to remain united, do what's in the best interest of Esperanza and Esperanzians (and, of course, Wikipedia), and place all suggestions on the overhaul page.  Shardsofmetal  04:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If you really think Esperanza exists to be a "united" voting block, you will get the pages deleted sooner or later. Do you realize how much you look like a secret club rather than an organization taking steps to improve Wikipedia? -- SCZenz 18:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, what I just said does not apply to every comment above. Rather, it is my response to users who make comments like Shardsofmetal just did; you are making Esperanza look like a bad group, and undermining the members who are trying to make the case that Esperanza is good in terms of Wikipedia's goals. -- SCZenz 18:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Please point out the quote where I said anything about voting. Seriously. I said to remain united, and do what's in the best interest for Esperanza and Wikipedia. If you feel it's best to vote delete, then go ahead and do so, but do not put words in my mouth.  Shardsofmetal  20:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Esperanza "remain[ing] united" is the problem. Whether you are manipulating Wikipedia's "votes" or consensus decision-making, the fact that some Esperanza members seem to think that Esperanza as a whole should have an opinion that everyone brings to the table together is unacceptable; it undermines community decisionmaking. Now maybe that's not exactly what you believe, but you didn't say "Esperanza and Wikipedia" either—you put Eperanza and Esperanzians first, with Wikipedia as an afterthought. -- SCZenz 20:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Because I thought that doing what's best for Wikipedia went without saying. Also, I meant nothing about "votes", "consensus", or anything like that. What I meant was really that we have to remain strong, take into consideration all the opinions on the MfD page, and most importantly remain civil and be kind to others who may have a different opinion that you. It appears that there was no consensus to delete, but it is very important that we as a community formulate a plan to make Esperanza much more useful to the community, and more encouraging to write the encyclopedia.  Shardsofmetal  21:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I apologise for misinterpreting what you said. However, you might want to think about the fact that some Esperanza users do seem to misunderstand Esperanza in the manner I described above. You might want to think about whether imprecise language used by wiser Esperanza members is contributing to that, and what might be done about it. -- SCZenz 22:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

That's OK, nobody's perfect. And you're right, I can see how that could have been misinterpreted, and I am sorry. Also, I apologize for the bitter attitude I had earlier. The important thing is that we use the MfD to our advantage and make good use of it's suggestions. I hope for the best.  Shardsofmetal  02:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, no problem. I've been trying to make constructive comments on these issues, but I wasn't at my best in this case. I guessed you held a viewpoint that concerned me and challenged you, when I should have been discussing the viewpoint in general terms instead. -- SCZenz 02:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It's now reached no consensus. Do we take down all the MfD templates or leave them up? Jam01 21:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Question

If Esperanza is deleted, how many people would leave Wikipedia? Also asking if Esperanza is moved to another Wikia, how many of you would leave Esperanza? Respond as follows;

1. I would not.

2. I would.

And those are my votes, actually. DoomsDay349 01:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I would not leave Wikipedia, but I'd be so bored that I'd pretty much go crazy. If Esperanza was moved to another Wikia, though, I'd definately follow and hopefully many other members would as well. // Sasuke-kun27 02:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Without Esperanza, the stress would overwhelm me, and I'd leave Wikipedia. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 02:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd stay in Wikipedia, but not Esperanza. I don't have time to switch wikis over and over... But maybe I'll stay with Esperanza... We'll see.--SUIT^{What? 42} 02:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I hope that regardless of what happens, all of you will stay here and edit - all of your contributions are appreciated, and you should know that. -- Natalya 03:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I would stay here. Esperanza is important, but I would probably forget my password on another wiki (eh heh heh...). I agree with Natalya, too. Kyo cat^(T)•(C) 03:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sad to say that I'm finding less and less time for Wikipedia nowadays, I love the place (less and less though, things, and I don't mean this afd in particular, are getting more and more poisonous of late), but I'm only staying until my AC term expires. If Esperanza gets deleted, well then that'll be accelerated of course. :P -- Banes 08:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't leave. I would likely create an organization with some of the features of Esperanza, but far more encyclopedia based. Probably. I think that there is still loads to do here with or without Esperanza (articles to get featured, vandals to fight etc), so I wouldn't leave, no. Thε Halo ^Θ 12:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I would leave even if the Coffee Lounge was deleted.. Wikipedia used to be such a boring place until I discovered the CL.. And I am actually thinking about leaving just because the games were deleted.. When will people realize that everyone doesn't find editing encyclopedias such a interesting thing..Jayant,17 Years, India • contribs 02:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you realise that it is comments like that which are exactly the reason why many people wish for Esperanza to be deleted? If you don't find editing an encyclopedia to be interesting, then go and find yourself a forum somewhere where you can chat with your buddies and play games. The Crying Orc 13:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Tossing it out there: The Coffee Lounge

It's the white elephant in the middle of the room that no one is talking about (well, actually, everyone is talking about it, so perhaps that's a bad analogy). But regardless, it's evident that something needs to be done about the Coffee Lounge. Delete it? Perhaps. In light of the recent discussions, what do you think? (Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul was created for related discussion, but this is a big issue so it seems it should be on the main talk page) -- Natalya 03:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm..I think it should be deleted, I, personally, don't see anything great about the coffee lounge. Yes, you can talk about whatever you want there, but, we have lots of talk pages already. The Coffee Lounge is just one big talk page with a fancy name, and well...you get my point (right?). Kyo cat^(T)•(C) 03:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I have to say give it an overhaul. Right now, it's kind of a forum. Instead of saying "What's your favorite..." We could talk about Wikipedia issues, not like the Reach Out page but kind of different. Without the coffee lounge, I don't know what I'd do...--SUIT^{What? 42} 03:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If you do delete it, redirect it into someone's userspace and have it there

†he Bread 03:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

My comments and some responses a response at Wikipedia talk:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza#Proposal for Coffee Lounge — Editor at Large^(speak) 03:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree the Coffee Lounge needs to be fixed. So, I think it should be restricted to: Current Events (not just Wikipedia stuff, I see no reason not to have a good old discussion about politics) and Stress Alerts. Like "Hey, I'm stressed" would be cool, and then talk about it. DoomsDay349 03:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, Dooms. Very Esperanza-oriented... what Esperanza was created to do. More constructive than randomness :-) — Editor at Large^(speak) 04:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Could we include current events (Movies? etc...) as well? Politics? I don't know...--SUIT^{What? 42} 03:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

How about creating the rule of discussing topics which have an article on Wikipedia.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 04:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be deleted. Maybe one of the reasons that people want it gone is because (and this is just speculations) they might not be able to edit it because they might not be members of Esperanza. If they were members, they might not want it gone. But since they are not members and therefore cannot edit it, they might not be in a mood to wait to become members, or might not ever want to.--Chili14 04:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

In the meantime, before we delete it, can we delete any sillyness on sit, immediately? Its damaging to our reputation. Jam01 09:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The Coffee Lounge has got to go. Esperanza will survive, but when that MFD closes I intend to immediately put the Coffee Lounge up at MFD. It's a flagrant violation of WP:NOT a place for social networking, and distracts from helping Wikipedia, so you can forget about throwing IAR in my face. Best to all, Moreschi 09:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess the thing that baffles me about this discussion is why people are so STRONGLY opposed to the Coffee Lounge. Don't get me wrong, I agree that the games and such are out of Wikipedia's focus, and I support their removal. Heck, I even suggested the review of our Advisory Council members. But what I don't get is the sheer vitriol in statements like Moreschi's. Why assume bad faith in saying "forget about throwing IAR in my face"? I just don't get it. --RoninBK_ETC 10:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

(re-indednt) Yes, let's all try and keep cool. Saying "so you can forget about throwing IAR in my face." is likely to cause an arguement, over a very small thing really. It's no good to anyone. I personally think that the Coffee Lounge has gone way out of control, especially recently. I also think that, even a its best, it is only tangibly (is that a word?) related to building the encyclopedia. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with the Coffee Lounge being deleted, but I am more than open to any sugestions on how to make the coffee lounge better before then :) Thε Halo ^Θ 11:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

My apologies if the tone of my last comment caused offence, but I feel very strongly that the Coffee Lounge should go. And in previous Game MFDs I have had IAR cynically used against me, so my frustration is perhaps understandable. Moreschi 11:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Certianly understandable, and everyone is allowed a slip in tone. As long as we all try and keep a cool head, the discussion should be much better for everyone. Oh, and thanks for fixing my spelling ;) Thε Halo ^Θ 11:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the word you're looking for is tangentially, not tangibly :-) And yes, I think the coffee lounge should go too. the wub "?!" 11:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that IAR has been overused, and used innappropriately at times. However, I do agree that the Coffee Lounge is necessary for building the encyclopedia, in a roundabout way...

If you're having problems or are frustrated, where do you go? Some people come to the coffee lounge and talk about it, we sympathise/reason/reassure/help, they say thanks, and we all move on, happier and more enthusiastic about editing the encyclopedia because of it.
When you're excited about something you've done or accomplished on the encyclopedia, where do you go? You post it on the coffee lounge, people share their achievments as well, everyone goes away happier for sharing what they've done and are more enthusiastic about the encyclopedia.
When you're frustrated with the hum-drum activities like categorising, wikifying, etc., or your brain is fried from all that article-writing, where do you go? You go to the coffee lounge, talk about something unrelated, relax a bit because of it, and when you're feeling better you go back and finish what you've started.

I can't spend more than one or two hours reverting vandalism without getting annoyed/fed up with humanity. I go to the coffee lounge, read some of the random postings by people I consider to be colleagues/friends, add one or two myself, feel better, and then go back and spend another hour or two reverting vandalism. Is that a bad thing? Without the coffee lounge I'd just leave Wikipedia for the day, and several hours of work would be lost. I'm sure others feel the same way. — Editor at Large^(speak) 16:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I have a new idea. What if we delete the coffee lounge, and create something new using the ideas given above. We could allow conversations about current events, both on and off Wikipedia, stress alerts, and topics that have a Wikipedia article (but the conversation must have some relation to the article). I think that with the ideas above, Coffee lounge is a bad name, and suggests that the page is for nothing but relaxing and socializing. It may be part of the reason that some users are very strongly opposed to even giving it another change to change. If we limit the conversation that goes on here, and give a name that suggests more value to Wikipedia, then there is a possibility that it may contribute to the project, and encourage writing articles more than the current Coffee lounge. I don't know what the title could be, though.  Shardsofmetal  03:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC) Sorry, I can't believe I forgot to sign...

As a thought for everyone who still wants a place to relax from editing, remember that there is the Esperanza IRC channel, which serves much of the same function and is off-wiki. -- Natalya 23:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

For the IRC channel you all have to be on at once, though. With the Coffee Lounge was you could post something and people had days/weeks to respond.
As for a name for the suggested replacement for the coffee lounge, what about the "Esperanza forum"? boring title, yes, but it sounds like a place for discussion rather than chatting. — Editor at Large^(speak) 02:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think that that is a fine name. My only concern is that some users will see the word "forum", and get the wrong idea. It would be cool, I think, if somehow the word "stress" or "improvement" or something similar could be worked in there, but I can't think of a way. I think the best way to find an appropriate name would be to make a list of the goals of such a page. Here are some goals I can think of:

• Help users relieve stress in an effective, efficient, and civil manner
• Allow editors to make wikifriends that might help them collaborate on articles
• Discuss current events, about Wikipedia or otherwise, and allow users to express their opinions
• Suggest appropriate Wikiprojects for users who would like to get more involved in the community
• Allow discussion of things that have an Wikipedia article, provided the discussion has some relation to the article (actually, this was Ed's idea, but I think it's a good one)

Please add any other goals this new page should achieve.  Shardsofmetal  03:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I told another user (who supported keeping Esperanza) that while I personally enjoyed participating in the coffee lounge at times, there were also instances where the prevailing sense of humour there have really turned me away from the place and question its purpose. I don't have the diffs right now, but there have been instances of random dog noises, off-colour humour and random nonsense, none of which seemed capable of lifting people's spirits, let alone contribute towards the encyclopedia. In those instances, my wikistress went was increased rather than decreased by the coffee lounge. I know that I can be sensitive and that I have issues to work through, but surely there are other people who have had similar reactions to what they have seen there. I just wanted to let you know, as a member of Esperanza and as someone who voted "Keep, but with some reservations". --Kyoko 04:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Userpage award

Can I bring peoples' attention to this question I asked yesterday...? It doesn't really matter to me if we discuss it there or here. -- SCZenz 21:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey. It's being discussed at the overhaul page. I want it gone, personally, but maybe, maybe, by some act of God, it will be salvaged. We'll see. DoomsDay349 23:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Question about Esperanza

I voted delete in the mfd discussion because to me this project appeared to encourage 'social networking', violating WP:NOT. Now, I'm not a member and would like to ask, what is it you guys do? Your main project page says you encourage a 'sense of community' by giving out compliments and generally trying to be nice. Now this is all well, but how do you guys go about doing this? Do you constantly patrol user talk pages to see if someone is having a problem? Or do users come here and say they are 'sad' or something of that sort? In a sense couldn't this whole project be replaced by an essay with summary of "Wikipedian are people too, so be nice"? The essay could also link to various templates like Template:welcome and Template:smile. So basically what I'm asking, why do you need a project to encourage 'mental support' to new and stressed wikipedians? Thank you. - Tutmosis 02:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not really qualified to explain Esperanza as I only joined a few days ago, so I won't, but I would like to thank you for asking your questions in such a nice way. The MfD scared me a bit, I must admit, and I was afraid the incivility would continue. Hopefully not, if everyone is a courteous as you. :) Marialadouce | parlami 02:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Anyway I'm a little confused why people are so eager to keep this project. By my deletion support I'm not trying to get rid of this project's users from wikipedia, I'm just saying that I see no point in this pages themselves. Wikipedians can still be nice to each other without a project page, in my view all this project is trying to do is get around policy of no 'social networking'. This project looks like it was made for people who want to get away from routines of wikipedia and to socialize, basically. Anyone is welcome to challenge my view, and I look forward to it. My understanding of things isn't perfect. - Tutmosis 02:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, Tutmosis, you really asked well, and politely too! Anyway, regarding your question, I'm not sure about the patrolling stuff. It doesn't seem like it's the right way to encourage a 'sense of community', so we can leave that method out. Secondly, Esperanza is a place for users to request for help, so, they can say they are 'sad'. However, we do not operate on that alone. Esperanza members will try to find users who are in need of help, and they will then post the username in the right page. If you want to, you can try to join Esperanza and experience it yourself. Its very nice, really...sigh...if only it won't be posted for deletion...anyway, I hope I answered some of your questions(I'm only a newbie here,so I don't actually know much about Esperanza, except all those that I have told you). PS:The MfD scares me too... Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 13:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's consider the Esperanza pages one by one

Let us, as a community, consider each page/project one by one. I propose we begin with the Coffee Lounge, since it seems to be one of the bigger items of contention. Comment at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Coffee Lounge, and let's see if we can't come to a consensus in a few days. Yes? --Fang Aili ^talk 02:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Coffee Lounge really needs a revamp as it is always targeted for deletion. We really need a major overhaul to achieve our goals as an organisation to benefit the encyclopedia. --Terence Ong _{(C | R)} 09:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposed amendment to Esperanza charter

Hello everyone. There were quite a few valid concerns that occurred over at the MfD, and I'd like to make a suggestion as to how to address a few of those. I propose an amendement to the Esperanza charter, to be inserted in the "Mission" section, that reads:

A. Programs

All Esperanza programs shall be designed to either directly benefit the encyclopedia or directly assist, encourage, or support those who contribute to the encyclopedia. No programs shall exist solely for the purpose of entertainment or socializing, with the exception of off-wiki efforts such as the Esperanza IRC channel.

---

This amendment would be applied retroactively to all existing programs. I realize this may not be the most popular suggestion, as many of us love the coffee lounge, etc., and feel that it does some good for the encyclopedia's community, but based on the comments of the MfD, I highly doubt the Coffee Lounge would survive an MfD of its own. Rather than wait for that to happen, I suggest this proactive measure to begin our reform of Esperanza. I look forward to your constructive comments and criticism. Cheers, EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 00:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Send all comments to Overhaul links at the top of every page.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 01:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

This amendment has been brought up at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Charter now. Please voice your opinions about it, lots of input is important! -- Natalya 23:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Esperanza's mission

I always thought positively of Esperanza's ideas of keeping and building a strong Wikipedian community. However, Esperanza seems to be building a strong Esperanza community instead. Instead of something like a WikiProject Community Building or a WikiProject Be Kind and Appreciate Other Editors it has become a club most of whose community building activities are self-centered. It appears to me less as a group reaching out to all Wikipedians than as an association of young Wikipedians, and many of the activities seem to appeal mostly to young people. Or at least, they don't appeal to me, and that might be because I'm above 30. The recent "let's do something for the encyclopedia" activities serve to me as a confirmation of this trend of becoming a young wikipedian's club: they are where the club has an activity where they show young Wikipedians can contribute well in this organizational form. Appearing to look like a club, though, seems directly against the statement from Wikipedia:Esperanza "Esperanzians try to spread hope throughout the encyclopedia, and Spanish is used in the hope that a segment of the Wikipedia community will never again break away as a portion of the Spanish Wikipedia did to form Enciclopedia Libre." because it shows a fractured community. I don't personally care how much work Esperanzans do on the encyclopedia, the CotM will probably not be as effective as that of a focused WikiProject anyway. But I think you need to rethink what Esperanza was started for and whether the current form accomplishes that. Building a community and especially reaching out to a community as diverse as the Wikipedian community is hard work, requires lots of creativity and understanding of people of all kinds, and can't be simply done by putting nice templates and smiling faces on editors' talk pages. Still, I am an optimist and I still hope that Esperanza can work for the Wikipedia community instead of for itself as a subcommunity, and that the recent MFD helps Esperanza to find its focus again. Good luck from a non-member, Kusma (討論) 09:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Kusma, thanks for your good luck wish. We Esperanza members always hope to become a better community in Wikipedia. We will remember your advice and put it to good use. Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 14:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

If you try to become a better community in Wikipedia, it sounds like you are not working to strengthen the Wikipedia community, but the Esperanza subcommunity. This can cause a weakening of the Wikipedia community as a whole, so could be against Esperanza's stated goals. Kusma (討論) 15:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, Kusma, I think many people will appreciate them after reading them. One thing though, true, Esperanza has many young members (as does Wikipedia), but you shouldn't make such an assumption about the entirety of Esperanza.  :) -- Natalya 16:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Esperanza does have a lot of young members, but what does it matter if Wikipedia can have a few more users to help in editing? Sure, they might be inexperienced, but it is us seniors who should be guiding them, aren't we? (Not that I am a senior, don't be mistaken. I'm just putting 'us' because it sounds better. '...it is you seniors who should be guiding them sounds rude.') If any young member needs help, then us Esperazians will help them, and if we can guide them properly, they will become very good editors later! Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 12:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposed reforms

Hello, everyone! I brought up these proposed changes on Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Overhaul:

"Here's how you can get started: transwiki the coffee lounge, transwiki the games, and get rid of the pointless bureaucracy. Refactor Esperanza so that it focuses entirely on making the community happy, healthy, and wanting to write articles. Replace "Barnstar Brigade" with "Recognizing Positive Contributions" and perhaps award barnstars after that. Keep Stress Alerts. "Admin Coaching" is a misleading name; consider changing it to Editor Advice or something along those lines. "To Do list" is awesome. Kill the Userpage Awards. Reach Out is nice though maybe it can be merged with another page. Stressbusters and the Calendar are the two things I'm having trouble deciding whether to keep it or transwiki it."

The people who commented it said that it should be brought up on the main talk page. So now here I am bringing it up. How do my proposed plans sound? ★MESSEDROCKER★ 21:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. You must be a mind-reader: my thoughts exactly. Moreschi 21:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The people whom I specifically want comments from are as follows: Natalya, Banes, Celestianpower, EWS23, FireFox, HighwayCello and The Halo. You see, they're on the Advisory Council, which per my reforms would be dissolved. ★MESSEDROCKER★ 21:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Our opinions are no more important than any other Esperanzian, but here are mine, as requested :) The start that was laid out at Wikipedia_talk:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza#Restructure_of_Esperanza is a very good start; COTM, the Tutorial Drive, the Alerts Page, and Admin Coaching (the name can be debated as people wish) should all certainly stay. The games have already disapeared, the coffee lounge is in the process of being dealt with (see above), whether it be deleted, moved, or modyfied. The To Do list is also well to be kept. If the suggested rename for the Barnstar Briagade makes people realize that is is useful, then that is good. The userpage awards will likely be debated, though probably not as hotly as the coffee lounge. Stressbusters and Reach Out have always been rather abstract programs, more venues for discussion than for action. And the calendar really is nice, it would be good for it to stay. That's just the quick version of my thoughts at the moment. -- Natalya 22:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I've just recently been at all the overhaul pages and created new ones, so check them out for some alternative, yet similar, ideas. My way keeps the governance, as we need someone to enforce the new policies...though I won't name them, I can think of several users that may not like this, especially the coffee lounge reform/deletion. DoomsDay349 22:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think the member list is harmful to Esperanza. I think it's part of the reason for the perception of Esperanza as some kind of clique or secret club. Membership should be defined by participation: a clear-cut "member/nonmember" distinction is an unnecessary segregation. Feezo (Talk) 22:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess that validates WikiProject Disambiguation as being a pretty secret society too... Do not worry, I jest! :D I just thought it would be funny, hopefully some laughs are still okay. I can see the issue of the members list being more problematic than with any other Wikiproject, but I wonder what everyone thinks of removing it? If we change around Esperanza, it won't have as much of a club feel, and therefore a list of participants wouldn't be as much of an issue.

As for the leadership of Esperanza, despite my position I speak unbiasedly when I say that everytime the question of whether or not Esperanza needs any leadership is brought up, it's always decided that in order to keep things running smoothly, it is helpful. If we decide that that's no longer needed, then that's absolutely cool, but we should also consider what the past has brought up. -- Natalya 23:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said when seeing the original preposal, I like the ideas. Per above, I'm not sure we'd need a members list per se, but we might need to play that by ear. Similarly, I'd like to keep the charter and the AC for now, as I think it does help with a smooth running, but I also think that if the new Esperanza can run smoothly all on its own, then we can easily get rid of it then. Thε Halo ^Θ 23:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

New essay inspired by recent MFD.

I have written an essay inspired by the recent MFD. Read it and tell me what you think on the essay's talk page. It can be found at: User:Jayron32/Orthodoxy and heresy at Wikipedia --Jayron32 04:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

AC Meeting

Can we have an AC Meeting anytime soon? I think that due to the massive overhauls we're having, it is necessary to be able to get this finished before the next MfD comes (I know it's going to come back; there's a debate over the result of our first MfD!).--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 04:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Know it's going to come back? Not looking on the brightside of life Ed ;) If our reforms go well, we will focus on the encyclopdia a lot more, so hopefully there should be no reason for a second MfD. Also, the AC has been Meeting a lot unoffically during this whole period, so there's no real reason for one schedualed meeting, I think. Thε Halo ^Θ 15:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, these issues and changes are so important that having a dialouge between all Esperanza members is really helpful. -- Natalya 17:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I was on IRC but no one was discussing. Meh, I'd have liked to have a live chat. DoomsDay349 21:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

In response to Natalya, is it true that since the Charter is being reformed as well, we can't really use the Charter to reform the Charter? ;) Anyway, I do think a community discussion should really be important for these issues.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 00:27, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Delete the Coffee Lounge?

From both discussions about the Coffee Lounge so far, my reading of it is that the consenus is to delete it (and then maybe start a new thing in it's place...). Am I right in thinking this, or do people want to wait some more before deciding if a consenus has been reached? Thε Halo ^Θ 23:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I seriously think that we should delete it. If we are to start something else in its place, it should include EVERYONE, not just EA.--Chili 23:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be alright to propose Coffee Lounge for deletion now, but please preserve the overhaul page. Discussion would continue and a new thing would be put up. And, Chili,you have good ideas; check out the overhaul page and please put your views down! DoomsDay349 06:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Removal of non encyclopedic programs

Esperanza is about a sense of community. If we eliminate all programs except ones that have to do with Wikipedia, your basically getting rid of everything that has a sense of community, like Barnster Brigade, Birthday/first edit day congrats, etc. However, though I say that programs like these deserve to stay, these programs help editors by giving them support. Programs like the coffee lounge should be deleted because they don't help editors at all. In short, if it helps Wikipedia and the editors, it should stay. editor review me!-TeckWiz^TalkContribs_{# of Edits} 01:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Results of Overhaul Discussions

Let's say that one of the resolutions of an overhaul (like this one) resulted in the community in favor of deletion. What policy on Wikipedia could get that page deleted? Can we just delete the page because the community decided on it? Or must we get an external admin to deal with it?--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 02:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It's going to be deleted? Damn. // Sasuke-kun27 02:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

If there is a broad enough consensus to delete it (many editors have weighed in) it can just be deleted by any admin. Let's leave the discussion open for a few more days, though. —Mets501 (talk) 02:53, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Governance

There is currently discussion over whether or not to keep the Esperanza governance, located here. Please discuss; this is something that needs mucho discussion. DoomsDay349 07:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Coffee Lounge MFD

Yup, it's finally up. The coffee lounge is up for MFD, with good reason. See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza/Coffee lounge and also Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Coffee Lounge. DoomsDay349 07:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Yay!--SUIT^{What!? 42} 07:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Ummm... you're oddly positive. DoomsDay349 07:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, just stay positive. Just stay positive. Yay. Well, it'd happen eventually any way.--SUIT^{What!? 42} 07:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 07:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

An idea on the membership list

Having read the comments at all the latest deletion discussions it appears that a lot of people view EA as a sort of clique or club within wikipedia that serves to benefit its members rather than the community as a whole. I think this is turning into a problem that's serving to polarise us against the community in various subtle ways.

I would therefore like to suggest we get rid of the membership list. I'm not sure it is very useful as it is at the moment. Most entries on the list are inactive and it's not like you have to be a member to be a part of Esperanza. We should (well, we do) welcome everyone, member or not. Are we not here to do a service to the community as a whole rather than our members.

Removing clear demarcations of membership I think would be a step towards breaking down the us/them polarization that's pervading discussions about us at the moment. Esperanza should be all inclusive rather than be perceived as a members club.  YDAM TALK 08:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that this was brought up somewhere else, though I can't find it now. Anyway, I'd be more than happy to get rid of the members list, for the reasons above. A 700 user long members list kind of made us look more like a social club then a real wikipedia project anyway. Thε Halo ^Θ 11:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind keeping the userboxes and banners. As well as the green e's. I suppose that some people might see the green e as divisive, though. --Kyoko 13:17, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I, again, agree :) This is a WikiProject, and wikiprojects often have userboxes and banners, so I see no reason to get rid of those. Also, I think that anyone who wants to keep the e should be allowed to. I've still got mine, it just doesn't link anywhere. However, it is now part of how I am, and how I few myself, so I would like to keep it. Thε Halo ^Θ 13:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course, I've got no objection to green e's and userbox's. I don't think getting rid of those is going to really achieve much.  YDAM TALK 13:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the bit of discussion Halo was talking about was in the second half of Wikipedia_talk:Esperanza#Proposed_reforms. -- Natalya 13:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Natalya, that's just what I was thinking of :) Thε Halo ^Θ 13:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia-building games?

With the recent MfD nomination of Esperanza, I got this idea from several threads at various locations, including the MfD talk page and Village Pump.

Perhaps we should have some games which build the encyclopedia. This would make contributing more fun and less stressful. We could have a scoring system and prizes. In addition, we'll show our critics that we do build the encyclopedia.

What do you think? Any ideas for games? --J.L.W.S. The Special One 10:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at Wikipedia:Department of Fun/Word Association. On the one hand, it's in the Sandbox, and therefore perceived as harmless. On the other, it has the stated goal of being "a good place to practice making links to articles, and to start looking for interesting articles on Wikipedia." I don't know why we can't apply this model that Wikipedia seems to accept, to some of our community building projects. --RoninBK_ETC 14:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Coffee Lounge Deleted

The Coffee Lounge has been deleted, as per this discussion. Thε Halo ^Θ 13:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar Brigade page up for deletion

Please discuss the nomination for deletion here: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza/Barnstar Brigade --tgheretford (talk) 14:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• Never mind, its been closed speedily. --tgheretford (talk) 14:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Probably becuase there seems to be a consensus here to wait for the reforms before a mass of MfDs on Esperanza programs. Thε Halo ^Θ 14:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

If there is anything good that came out from that discussion (apart from the deletion!) I have suggested a (preferably urgent) review of userpages, userboxes and user signatures guidelines at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Overhaul of Userpages, userboxes and user signatures, as per suggestions of a number of contributors to that MfD. --tgheretford (talk) 15:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You're wanted and needed elsewhere!

When Esparanza came up for MfD, some of us at Wikibooks started salivating. We're in dire need of some community-building tools and tactics... much more so than wikipedia.

I hope the project survives here, because it seems to me that a lot of people get a lot out of it. But we also hope you'll consider doing what you do on wikipedia for us!

Things you could do:

• We have no history of barnstars, but a lot of the wikibookians both deserve them and would be happy to get them.
• Dewikify! (a perverse pleasure for those who have been dutifully wikifying?)
• Have a coffee lounge. Have games on it. We could care less, but of course we'd appreciate it if you'd help clear some backlogs or give input when we need it!
• Copyedit. Most wikibooks are a "one person project", which gets pretty lonely and doesn't take advantage of the joys of wikis.
• Take a vacation. Wikistress is nearly unheard of on wikibooks. Apathy is our problem.

Really! We need you guys. This is an entire project suffering from bad morale (two projects were split off from wikibooks within the past year, and we're a bit shell-shocked). Come on down... you'll be welcomed. --SB_Johnny|^talk|_books 18:39, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• I don't have a Wikibooks account--yet. But I'm glad other projects are considering Esperanza as a new organization!--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 18:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I like Esperanza and all but I'm not gonna move to another Wiki..--SUIT^{What!? 42} 18:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer SB :) I do something kind of similar at Wikisource when Stressed bt still wanting to edit, so I see no reason why I should give Wikibooks a look at. I already have an account there after all. Thε Halo ^Θ 18:59, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

SUIT: it's not exactly "another wiki"... for example, this link to my user talk page on wikibooks doesn't have one of those funny external link arrow thingies :-). Wikipedians are often unaware of how the wikimedia family works.

Halo: I'm awed by anyone who works on wikisource... that is a very lonely project to work on! --SB_Johnny|^talk|_books 21:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I could see starting an Esperanza on WikiBooks. I'd like to let the Esperanza here play out a bit, and then once we've got a good model to go by, bring it to WikiBooks. That's only if I had a lot of support from people here. DoomsDay349 21:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

So we're expanding this into other wikis now? Will we have one at Uncyclopedia? I have an acount there.--SUIT 21:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The Simple Wikipedia has an Esperanza already.--Chili 22:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Becoming a part of the community, not a subculture

It is very important that Esperanza is a part of the Wikipedia community, not separated from it. For lack of a better name, I have created a subpage at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Outreach that I hope everyone will start discussion at. (And yes, I know that it is ironic to call an integration subpage "outreach"...if you have a better idea, suggestions are welcome.) EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 23:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

For the moment I've moved this page to Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Becoming a part of the community. Other suggestions are still welcome. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 23:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Editor forum

I made a proposal at the proposal page from the suggestions and comments on the many pages discussing the coffee lounge. Please have a look at it and share your opinions about it.  Shardsofmetal  02:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The spirit of Esperanza

The Esperanza community currently is in crisis. We're being scrutinised by everyone, and we're falling apart under the pressure. This needs to stop.

A stronger community fosters a nicer place in which to work. The nicer the place is to work, the more people will want to work there. The more people want to work here, the more contributions they will make, and the greater the encyclopedia will become. Thus, Esperanza was created. Esperanza aimed to promote the key principles of kindness and civility within the community, thus improving the encyclopedia.

Esperanza was never meant to play a direct part in encyclopedia-building. It was never meant to be about our contributions to the encyclopedia content. Within Esperanza, we were there to support contributors, so they did more. Of course, being Esperanzian didn't preclude contributing - far from it - but it gave us the extra role of supporting the community.

Esperanza has lost its way in this regard. The otherwise great programs for achieving these goals have now been deleted, having simply gone awry. The coffee lounge was meant to be a place where people could go when they needed a break: an online IRC. Where you can discuss things amongst others sharing your views. It bred silliness. The userpage award was supposed to encourage those with HTML talent, showing they have a place here, but it was seen as a silly distraction from our goal.

This is what worries me. People seem to want Wikipedians to be simply robots. They want us to not feel, and not get bored, to not want fun, and to not want to enjoy our time here. We are human, so this attitude fails in a big way. I believe Esperanza is still necessary, for creating that strong, united community, for that purpose set out at the beginning. I hope that I'm not alone. Regards, —Celestianpower ^háblame 13:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with all the above. Some of Esperanza has lost its way. Some of it has become less relevant, and some of it became plain silly. That's not to say our original goals are now less than the once were. The ideal still remains the same. To try and make Wikipedia a happier, better environment to edit. However, it seems now that we want to rid Esperanza of any trace of it's former self, which is not where we want to go at all. If this MfD period has shown anything, it is that Wikipedia's community is far from a united force working towards the common goal of building an encyclopaedia and supporting one another while doing it. Because wikipedia is divided sometimes doesn't mean we must delete everything we ever stood for, just parts of things which no longer work so well. We must try to remember that Esperanza stands for hope, and while editing the encyclopaedia is a very large part of that, we must not forget our dedication to the wider wikipedia community. Thε Halo ^Θ 13:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the wholesale slaughter of Esperanza programs is a tragedy. Celestianpower, I understand that Esperanza wasn't as much about building the encyclopedia. Unfortunately, MfD has told us that we are not above the rules. The sentence that comes to mind about Esperanza is: "Building the encyclopedia, while building the community that builds the encyclopedia" Building the encyclopedia is where CotW's, whatever form Admin coaching takes, and general information sharing falls under. Building the community is where the loftier goals such as kindness and civility, wikistress reduction, and contribution recognition reside. As long as both sides of that equation are in balance, and one is not favored to the detriment of the other, Esperanza can create a better Wikipedia. --RoninBK_ETC 13:40, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I diasgree. I've never said we're above the rules. However, I don't see where we are above the rules. We are improving the encyclopedia (or at the very least, we're trying to) by improving the community, and improving the individual editors within it. If that's against the rules, then I'm not sure this is the right place for me to be. We're not about COTWs or direct contribution: there are hundreds of those projects already. We're adressing (or, once again, trying to adress) the community aspect, which is just as important. We're a simple Wikiproject, working on one aspect of the equation, just like other Wikiproject does. Regards, —Celestianpower ^háblame 13:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

What I am referring to is the oft-quoted, (or oft-thrown-in-our-face if you prefer,) WP:NOT policy that states that Wikipedia pages should exist "only to present information relevant to working on the encyclopedia." Even in comparing Esperanza to a WikiProject, all WikiProjects are for building the encyclopedia. Building the community should not, and does not have to come at the expense of building the encyclopedia. For Esperanza to survive, we will have to prove that building the community is the same thing as building the encyclopedia. I believe that they are the same. --RoninBK_ETC 14:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Since it's my firm belief that a healthy community fosters a healthy encyclopedia, we are certainly presenting information relevant to working on the encyclopedia. Regards, —Celestianpower ^háblame 15:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Right. The distinction we have to make clear to everyone else is that we are not building the community independent of the encyclopedia, which is the perception that is currently plagueing us. This is why I think projects like CotW help us, and I think a rebranding of ourselves (like my original bolded sentence above,) to clearly indicate we are still interested in building the encyclopedia would be helpful. I suppose on one level it's an appeasement, but on the other hand, I think that the Wikipedia community in general wants to be reassured that we hold their values as well. --RoninBK_ETC 17:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

You've just hit the nail on the head. We're making the community for the encyclopedia, not independant of it. That's a great way of putting it. Thanks! —Celestianpower ^háblame 21:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Overhaul update.

Many of the discussions of reforms have gone into the voting phase, so I thought it would help you to have an update on the relevant issues:

• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Governance - There are currently four proposals: that the current governing system be kept as is, that it be abolished for either two or four months to test whether Esperanza actually needs that layer of bureaucracy, that it be replaced with two "consuls" to act a a balance of power, or that the council should be abolished permanently.

• Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Overhaul/Coffee Lounge - An Esperanza noticeboard, that could potentially incorporate stressed users, the good aspects of the coffee lounge, and the to-do list has been proposed.

• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Admin Coaching - Admin coaching is still in the discussion phase, with suggestions to rename or delete and redirect to adopt a user being considered.

• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Stress Alerts - Stress Alerts are still in the discussion phase, though a suggestion that they be deleted and resurrected in a third party format at the proposed noticeboard has been made.

• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/To-Do List - There are currently two proposals: keep as is, or delete.

• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Appreciation Week - There are currently three proposals: that it be kept as is, that it be deleted as an Esperanzan project and be proposed for all Wikipedians at the village pump, or that it be deleted permanently.

• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Newsletter - There are currently two proposals: keep as is, or delete. Some residual discussion regarding an "opt-in" list rather than an opt-out list is continuing.

• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Calendar - There are currently three proposals: that it be kept as is, that it be moved from Esperanza to the Birthday Committee, or that it be deleted permanently.

• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Members List - There are currently three proposals: that the list be kept, that it be kept but the inactive section removed, or that it should be deleted altogether. Discussion is ongoing as to whether it promotes Esperanzans as "set apart".

• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Stressbusters - A suggestion has been made by me for this largely inactive project to be deleted and reproposed at Wikiproject Wikidemia. Initial discussion has begun.

• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/WikiProject Award - A discussion has just opened about whether the Esperanza barnstar is too exclusive.

Thoughts and contributions to these discussions are welcome. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. With so many things going on, its hard to keep up - • The Giant Puffin • 12:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Overhauls

For quicker accessibility and to get this out to everyone, here is a link to all the overhauls that we have as of yet. Any more, I will update them. Debate is appreciated.

• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Goals
• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Charter
• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Coffee Lounge
• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Admin Coaching
• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Archiving
• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/User Page Award
• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Barnstar Brigade
• Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Collaboration of the Month

Please come by and discuss. DoomsDay349 23:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Who decided that the overhaul had to take place across multiple pages? Why can't there be a centralized discussion on what needs to change, what needs to go, and what needs to stay? ★MESSEDROCKER★ 00:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I pretty much agree, but I just went along with the style. We can merge them all onto a centralized overhaul page, if you think that's the best idea. DoomsDay349 00:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that any one individual page would become gargantuan with discussion. Part of the problem at the MfD was that some people were pushing for everything to go, others wanted some gone but allowed for some to stay, and some wanted everything to stay. This method seems to allow that sort of discussion to take place. - Che Nuevara 00:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I missed the MFD discussion and would like to make just one point that is related to Esperanza as a whole. That is: that WP is one of the largest (the largest?) organisations in the world relying on volunteers. And other serious volunteer organisations take volunteer support seriously. It should be taken very seriously in WP, because the whole enterprise is addictive. It attracts disproportionate numbers of people who are in some way vulnerable - insomnia sufferers to cite only the most obvious condition. So for the WP enterprise to be morally justifiable it has a responsibility to give some basic support to those whose efforts it relies on. Esperanza and the Kindness Campaign are the main ways in which that currently happens; they must be expanded and improved, not deleted. Sorry this is turning into a bit of an essay. Please feel free to move it to another location if there is a more appropriate one. Itsmejudith 01:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No offence, but don't you think that the Overhaul page will be a little bit cramped if you merge them all together? Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 13:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Signature

This is not a proposed reform in any way, but I wanted to bring my thoughts up here in case any other users agree with me or disagree with me and would like to discuss this. In short, I am considering removing the green "e" from my signature. I realize this is not compulsory, but it is used in some form by almost all members. Esperanza is about creating a closer knit community, but I feel that an overt advertisement of membership sets these signatures apart, and albeit rare exceptions, Esperanza is the only organization that commands a place in its members signatures. Additionally, the Esperanza subpage contains little real information; one could simply click on a simple signature and be told on the following user page that this contributor is a member of Esperanza. I would appreciate any thoughts, as I am not fully committed to this yet. Dar-Ape 23:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Totally agreed. I would have my Esperanza page deleted but I don't know the process =P. I already removed the green 9 from my sig, as it was a distraction to other editors. I think I have a two line sig now, which is good I think. It was three lines before. It's tough to create policy for this though...I mean, hey, Esperanza tells us what we can and can't have in our signatures! What I would do is delete the template. That'll cut off the source entirely. DoomsDay349 00:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

If you created it and it's in your userspace, you can tag it for speedy delete. - Che Nuevara 00:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I've always thought that some people assume the green in my sig is for EA. It's not. - Che Nuevara 00:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm getting rid of that stuff. It's useless, you know?--SUIT^{What!? 42} 00:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Mine is proposed for speedy deletion...dunno if they acted on it yet. I hope I used the right template... DoomsDay349 00:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

What did you use? I use {{db-userreq}}--SUIT^{What!? 42} 00:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a green e. lols. - Hahnchen 01:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that you point it out, Hahnchen, I'm very curious as to why your e links to evil. - Che Nuevara 01:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

{{db-userreq}} is correct. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  01:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I just redirected mine so my old signatures wouldn't have a dead link, but whatever floats your boat. Dar-Ape 01:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I will admit to having sort of spoofed the EA subpage on my userpage (as well as using it to spoof disambig pages). Check out my main userpage -- there's no need for an EA template to do userpage disambig work. - Che Nuevara 01:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Really, Hahnchen, your 'e' links to evil... Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 13:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

If we agree on this, we can't really tell people "you can't have a green "e" in your signature, but we can take that bit out of So you've joined Esperanza..., so that if people put it in, it is by choice. It seems like that is a pretty reasonable option. -- Natalya 13:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, if they don't want it, we sure can't force them. It adds a little more colour to my signature though! ^^ Who thought of that anyway? About the green 'e', I mean. Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 12:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

User Page Award nominated for deletion

See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza/User Page Award -- SCZenz 23:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link :) Thε Halo ^Θ 23:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Why do they want to delete it though? It encourages editors to spice up their user pages. Zacharycrimsonwolf 13:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC) 12:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Forum

I started a Forum page on User:Ed/Sandbox. I'll be working on it for a while, but feel free to edit it.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 00:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I've done some work. Comments/suggestions welcome. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 16:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Coffee Lounge straw poll

I think it best if this contentious manner is resolved in-house, something that I don't think would be against policy in any way - after all, it is Esperanza's Coffee Lounge - another painful MFD is a thing to be avoided. I would like to set up a straw poll on this issue: should the Coffee Lounge go, or should it be kept? If it is to be kept, perhaps it would be best to give a couple of weeks for reform: and then, if this is not done or meets with big resistance within Esperanza, IMO an MFD will be necessary to gain the consensus of the wider community. Best to all, Moreschi 17:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You might want to see this overhaul page for debate. DoomsDay349 00:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, there are two straw polls going on and we should restrict to the overhaul page where the coffee lounge is being specifically discussed.--Húsönd 02:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Keep

• I'm in the clear minority here but I'll talk anyway. Keep, tag with {{historical}}, then don't use anyomore. My rationale for suggesting this is on behalf of the many people who have made edits at the Coffee lounge and their edit counts (Not myself, I've made 2 edits there I think). Also it has become a known part of WP, see the 50+ Archives, and should be kept for historical intrests.

†he Bread 03:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Delete

• Unecyclopaedic: violates WP:NOT a place for social networking (discussing your medical problems???) - an "on-wiki chat centre" shouldn't really be allowed in any shape or form; it is potentially deletorious to the image of Wikipedia as a reputable encyclopaedia and has proved catastrophic for the image and perception among Wikipedians of Esperanza. Moreschi 17:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete in its current form. Right now, it is a clear violation of WP:NOT, and nearly everyone agrees that it is not helpful to Wikipedia or Esperanza. However, there is a discussion going on here (hopefully those "overhaul" subpages will be centralised soon) about a possible reformed Coffee Lounge (I'm currently calling the reformed version the "Editor's Lounge", at least in my head). A discussion forum about articles, for example "I'm starting to write about a popular video game. Any pointers about what to put in and what to leave out?" could actually be very good for the encyclopedia, and any newbies that Esperanza attracts. However, even if there is some kind of reformed Lounge, the Coffee Lounge should be taken to Wikia and/or Deleted. Thε Halo ^Θ 17:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - yes, I think it'll be much easier to delete the current version and build the "Editor's Lounge" from scratch, rather than struggle through reforming the dreck that is currently there - sorry if anyone takes offence, but after dog noises I think that "dreck" is a fair description. Moreschi 17:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Oh yeah, I think that would be far easier. Thε Halo ^Θ 17:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment I like the idea of an Editor's Lounge since it would help build community amongst editors and help them with questions on editing, and delete the old coffee lounge as it is just a social network. Darthgriz98 17:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
        • Another Comment Also, while this may sound harsh to some, if the coffee lounge does get deleted (very likely to happen) then I would prefer it to be protected. Thε Halo ^Θ 18:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• Per NOT etc. I am not sure how beneficial an 'editor's lounge' would be — how would it be different to the 'coffee lounge'? I saw a suggestion above that discussion there be limited to subjects covered on the encyclopedia (but not necessarily the encyclopedia's coverage of the topics). How would this be enforced (?), and also since ideally the limitation would be synonymous with 'everything' it simply does not work. No, if people want to socialise they can start a forum (and no-one is objecting to a bit of banter on user talk pages, either). But I really do think an 'editor's lounge' will just be another coffee lounge under a different name (given time for the dust to settle on this one)...humans are just like that. The Crying Orc 18:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Not if you make it something like Requests for Assistance (the other other RFA). Currently, the Coffee Lounge is pretty much a violation of several policies, at this point, not just WP:NOT. Titoxd^(?!?) 21:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Actually, under my proposal, a new group of monitors would be appointed strictly for the task of monitoring the Editor's Lounge. The basic idea is for discussion of inter-wiki ideas, like discussing policy and edits to it, which could be valuable because it allows new policy ideas to get out into the open. Of course, that's not to mean we shouldn't say anything on that discussion page. But it could be a valuable place. And also, this really should have been at the overhaul page...so really you cannot make any decisions without considering the opinions there. I encourage all of you to repeat your views there, where it will be better found. DoomsDay349 21:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, per directly above. Titoxd^(?!?) 21:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. editor review me!-TeckWiz^TalkContribs_{# of Edits} 22:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per The Crying Orc, and as far as "questions on editing," I think the Help Desk and the Village Pump are sufficient. Dar-Ape 23:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete On second thought, can't a user put a help needed tag on his/her user page or simply as an editor for help? It's possible to compile a list of editors willing to help and I'm sure you already have that with coaching. So a talk page/lounge isn't really needed. Darthgriz98 00:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as per above and MfD page. I would not be opposed to the creation of a more Wikipedia-related page as per The Halo's comments. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  00:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Deleteas seems to be consensus around here.--Chili 00:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Not quite...check out the Overhaul page for the Coffee Lounge--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 00:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Seconded. This should have been at overhaul page..please keep all things corresponding to EA changes there. DoomsDay349 21:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per MfD page - • The Giant Puffin • 23:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as per TheHalo's comment above. Marialadouce | parlami 12:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Constitutional Convention

I hereby move, as a member of the Esperanza Club, that on December 31, 2006, at 11:59:59, the Charter expire, and set place for the creation of a new one, to be written by the members. WikieZach| talk 01:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

In amendment would be introduced to an article, then voted on. Since I am well knowledged in this area of politics, I would remain neutral and help with the process. The Current Charter's expiration time could be extended, but only for the new charter to be written. WikieZach| talk 02:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC) 01:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support We need this badly.--Chili 01:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Definitely needed. DoomsDay349 01:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support, but make it earlier Who would want to edit Wikipedia while their celebrating New Year's Eve??? I motion to move it on the day of the new Tranche in the Advisory Council.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 01:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I second the motion, and ask if there are any objections WikieZach| talk 02:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Also support but make earlier Its over a month, thats too long. If we are to sort this out we need to strike while the iron is hot and do it by the end of November • The Giant Puffin • 19:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I hereby state (not move) that esperanza should start work on that /new charter RIGHT NOW :-). Welcome to the wonderful world of wikis. See that conspicuous redlink? Be BOLD, make it blue! Come on Esperanza, show us you know how to use a wiki! :-) Kim Bruning 03:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support creation of a new charter immediately. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 11:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
• Conditional support. Only disband the old one when we have a new one agreed on with which to replace it. Regards, —Celestianpower ^háblame 12:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support - though "Charter" sounds wrong - too militaristic. A start from scratch is needed. Moreschi 15:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Pardon my ignorance, but...

...why not just rewrite the charter, as was already being discussed? What is the purpose of all these motions? Why are you putting someone officially in charge of running an official discussion? -- SCZenz 02:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Because it's so old. We need to scrap it, may be small changes will be made. The same happened with the Articles of Confederation, and they made the Constitution. All the small little debates are worthless. They are going so slowly, without any sign of an end. Let us change the charter, with a strict timeframe, so that things can be done quickly. If we continue at our slow pace, we may never get the major overhaul some of us want. Let us continue the vote. WikieZach| talk 03:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's just write the darn page already eh? :-) I made a very fugly start, see if you can edit it into shape! :-) Kim Bruning 03:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Pardon my ignorance as well, but has anyone looked at this page before? Those who haven't should really give it a look, because there is already some good ideas for an new charter there. Thε Halo ^Θ 11:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Repairing the damage

Esperanza just took a major hit. Half its programs have disappeared! Don't you think we should be focused on repairing the damage and restoring those programs?

First of all, is there another wiki upon which the programs can be hosted? Then the deleted pages complete with their histories could be transwikied there.

There's no reason why Esperanza couldn't run any type of program it sees fit. We just have to think outside the box! There are lots of wikis. A link is a just a link, the server that hosts the page linked to is beside the point. The important thing is for the pages to exist!

Also, why is Esperanza limited to Wikipedia? It seems to me that its resources and support would compound and synergize if all the Wikimedia projects were included. Perhaps Esperanza could find a centralized location, to which each wiki's Esperanza branch would feed into. The centralized HQ could host all the programs that were in danger of being deleted on any particular wiki. Increased cross-communication between these wikis could only be a good thing. Who knows what will be learned or what resources will emerge from it? Sharing cool ideas and features? New programs? Better integration? Anything could happen.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Esperanza was subject to deletion, and that is still the case. If Esperanza's programs are not safe on Wikipedia, then the only sensible thing to do is find a place for them that is safe. And, all of Esperanza's programs should be backed-up on a regular basis (complete with edit histories - is that possible?).

This is Esperanza. Esperanza = hope. Esperanzans don't give in to despair (because hope defeats despair), and we don't give up!

I have some questions: does anyone have a copy of Wikipedia? Does the download come with the Wikipedia namespace? Let's get our programs back!

Of all the Wikimedia Foundation wikis, which one is best suited for hosting Esperanza? The membership there is who we should be opening discussions with. And if we have to go further afield, then let's explore the options.

Come on! Where there's an organization called "Esperanza", there's hope. Hope provides a reason, a will. And where there's a will, there's a way. Let hope lead the way.

I hope we can get our programs back. If enough of us hope this, then we will make it happen.

I look forward to your replies.  The Transhumanist   03:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

That was a great way of giving us the "pep talk" we needed. Unfortunately, by looking at the recent MfDs, not much people of the Wikipedia community supported our programs. Also, no one here has the full copy of Wikipedia. Doing so would require plenty of memory. Admins can always look at any version of any page, however.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 03:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Even the greatest tree started from a small seed. It is irrelevant whether the majority of Wikipedians support Esperanza. That is not the key factor here. What is relevant is that Esperanza supports Wikipedians: any Wikipedian who wants that support. We can't give up on them just because we get criticized. The first thing to do is find more hosting resources. Once we do that, then we can submit a request to Deletion Review for transwikiing the lost programs to their new home. But first we have to find them a home. Also, does the download of Wikipedia include the Wikipedia namespace? It's time to shrug off the duldrums and embrace the possible. This is virtual reality. We should be able to resurrect those programs with little more than a cut and paste operation. There shouldn't be a debate on whether we should - that's a given. If you're wounded, treat the wound. If your right arm gets chopped off, have it reattached. Esperanza just lost several limbs. If some armless guy in France can get 2 arm transplants, then by comparison it should be pretty easy for us to find a host for Esperanza's lost programs. Any ideas?  The Transhumanist   03:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The programs were deleted for a reason. More importantly, they were deleted by Esperanzans. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 10:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

If you're talking about the coffee lounge, and the coffee lounge games, there was a discussion about setting them up on wikia, which I'm not sure is part of the foundation. However, bringing Esperanza in the state it was in before we began the reform to any other foundation site (wikiquote, for example), would be a big mistake. Barnstar brigade and UPA were deleted because they no longer served Wikipedia in a possitive way, therefore they didn't serve Epseranza in a possitive way either. It's important to keep in mind that Esperanza is just a part of Wikipedia, not the other way round. Regards, Thε Halo ^Θ 16:31, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Per The Halo (hey, don't I always?). The words "gaming the system" rise to mind. The point is that large chunks of those programs weren't helping and may even have been harming the encyclopaedia - so yes, they should stay gone! Moreschi 16:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Its not like the programs were speedied in a MfD. They were deleted because they were obselete and/or not needed anymore. They were deleted by Esperanzians. Theres no point in restoring stuff that just got deleted by our own members for good reasons. I think we should focus on making what we have left worthwhile, and maybe making new programmes that are truly useful to the whole of Wikipedia, not just Esperanza members - • The Giant Puffin • 21:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Governance

Hello Everyone. There has been many discussions about Esperanza's governance in verious places. While it seems like a consensus has been reached in a couple of places, the problem is that nothing has been centralised, and so people may have missed the oppotunity to comment. With this in mind I would like to begin a discussion here as to find some kind of answer to the very difficult question. So far some people have felt very strongly that the current governance system should be kept, some have felt just as strongly that it should go all together. It's important to keep in mind that this is not a vote (voting is, after all, evil), or a straw poll, or anything like that. Just a group of people trying to reach a consensus were everyone is happy :)

On a personal note, I would like to see Elaragirl's idea of governance adopted into Esperanza. Not only do it have a good structure, address all the issues the current governance do, and lower the Bureaucray, it is also a very nice middle ground between the two schools of thought. Without any further ado, Elaragirl:

More seriously, I think a problem with the charter is that you should simplify the leadership. Have you considered a single person running each program, and answering to Natalya? (I like the current leader you have because there was not a single undignified or uncivil comment form Natalya during the entire MfD debacle, anywhere , which is awe inspiring.) --Elaragirl^Talk|Count 16:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that an overseer aided by a set of clerks would work very well for this organization. Of course, this is just my POV, and I'm looking forward to hear what everyone else thinks. Thε Halo ^Θ 14:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed - my preferred option as well. Anyone else. IMO seeing as running Esperanza is really NOT a big deal, it should be done in the simplest way that is reasonably possible. Moreschi 16:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The more this debate goes on, the more these two statements stick in my head:

• Key power: Declare that consensus has been reached on an Esperanzan discussion, and act on that consensus

• Key responsibility: Make a commitment to be personally responsible and accountable for the welfare of the group during their term in office

Let's say there's a critical task Esperanza needs to carry out. If it doesn't get carried out for whatever reason, and there's no AC, the blame game will start. However, if there is an AC, the finger of blame can be pointed squarely at them.

Re: consensus: The fewer people that have the power to declare consensus, the more likely it is that a debate will play out to a logical conclusion. If there's a choice between having a debate run too long versus having a debate cut short, I'd prefer having the debate run over-time. This will reduce the chances of the debate showing up on a new thread 2 seconds later. Giving such power to one person is too impractical - what happens if they're tied up with real life? - With seven, there will usually be a good "response time".

I believe that limiting the number of people who can declare consensus also acts as another "check and balance" on the system. With only seven people who can do this, each person will eventually declare consensus on a significant number of discussions, and form a pattern of behaviour which can be publicly examined. This will allow members to "audit" any AC member they wish. If the AC member is really acting like a dictator, they will repeatedly close discussions they disagree with before they reach a community accepted level of consensus. Such closed discussions can be used as evidence in the "raving loon" procedure mentioned below. If, on the other hand, AC members are declaring consensus responsibly, and respecting such consensus, then all is well in the world. I'll quickly address some points from the last thread:

"I don't object to an AC. I agree with everything, besides that we need some way to check the council in the case it dosen't behave, it may never happen, but if it does we need a way out."

Instead of bringing in more layers of government to monitor all the other layers, I'd prefer something like this:

Problem: AC member turns into raving loon / fascist dictator.

Solution: start a discussion, propose a motion of "no confidence" in said member. Provide evidence of raving lunacy. If consensus is reached, kick out that member and replace with the first runner up. If AC doesn't accept the consensus, proceed to the next step.

Problem: Entire AC turns into mob of raving loons / fascist dictators.

Solution: start a discussion, propose a motion of "no confidence" in entire AC. Provide evidence of raving lunacy. If consensus is reached, kick out all AC members and replace with the next seven runners up.

In these cases, consensus isn't declared by the AC, since it's obviously a conflict of interest. Overwhelming consensus would be needed to carry such a motion through - but if the AC member really has gone off the deep end, this shouldn't be a problem. However, someone who starts a new proposal every week to wipe out the council could be considered disruptive, in the same way as someone who puts an article up for deletion five times in a row.

"Anywhere else on Wikipedia, if an editor sees a problem they fix it, or they propose an idea to fix it. That same editor then comes to Esperanza and puts themselves under the authority of the Council, who do everything for them."

&

"I want Esperanzans to be empowered to take control of their own fates, like they are in every other part of Wikipedia."

It's not the AC's job to do everything. It's their job to ensure that everything gets done. Also, Esperanza could easily run without an AC. That's not the point. The point is that it runs more efficiently with an AC than without one.

"If there is a clear, established need for a co-ordinator, one may be appointed in an election style process for a perod of six months."

Saying "we won't choose one until we need one" seems short-sighted. By this logic, the only time a co-ordinator would be considered is when the project is in serious trouble. By the time it is decided that the project is, in fact, in serious trouble, and by the time a full and fair election is run, the project will have slid into even more trouble. Isn't it better to appoint co-ordinators from the start, to ensure that the project never reaches such a troubled state in the first place? And if by some good fortune we never need such co-ordination, then what was lost by having a team of pre-approved co-ordinators on standby?

"Have you considered a single person running each program, and answering to Natalya?"

&

"I think that an overseer aided by a set of clerks would work very well for this organization."

I like the idea, but just one problem - how are the clerks chosen? If the overseer chooses the clerks, the overseer is open to be accused of bias, or choosing their mates. As well as the "all power with one person" issue people have previously complained about. If the clerks are elected, then the system hasn't really changed. (We could rename the AC to Oversight Committee, Co-ordinators Assembly, or whatever, but I'd like to worry about what they do and how they're chosen before dealing with the name issue. Though I do like the sound of Oversight Committee - it implies that the group doesn't dictate orders, and only steps in when necessary.)

We could implement something like this overseer/clerk proposal using the current elected structure if we accepted the idea of delegation. The AC is basically a group of seven people who've put their hand up to be available for work, and who the community's approved. However, I don't see a requirement for the council members to have to do all the work personally - if someone wants to run a certain program, let them have a go, council member or not! The council can then take a step back and take up an oversight role over the delegated work. If the AC members agree to split up and each take responsibility for a section, that's fine too.

Phew, I'm tired after all that. How about we bring in a new rule that after this reform, governance never gets changed again? Let's call it the "couldn't be stuffed" rule. Tempting, no? :-) Quack 688 17:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Get rid of all governance, and your problem goes away. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a dumb question I asked on some other page, but anyway, what do the members of the AC do exactly? How do the duties of each AC member differ from one another, and from Wikipedians in general? I'm not trying to criticise the organisation, but this was never explained to me when I first joined Esperanza. All I saw was the chart listing who was in what position and for what duration of time. I think an explanation of the current hierarchy would help everyone to understand what is going on. Thanks, --Kyoko 18:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not a dumb question, don't worry. The question has been asked a lot, and though and answers are all over the place, Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Governance, especially the higher up parts of the discussion, go over this. If that's too broad of a direction, just say so, and something more detailed can be defined here. -- Natalya 19:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Notice

On a related note, I will be steppin down from the AC before the next election (if there is one). I didn't take this decision lightly, nor did I enjoy doing it, but I believe it is for the best for not only myself, but more importantly Esperanza. I’m sure there is someone better for the job of leading this new esperanza than me, and I wish them the best of luck if/when they take up the job. Thanks to everyone who supported me, and I appologise to anyone I let down during my time on the council. Thε Halo ^Θ 14:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to say that you have been one of my favorite Esperanzians, and therefore Wikipedians. You have never let me down. I support you in this decision, and I hope it relieves any stress you might have.--Chili 17:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

There's been a lot of heavy-duty discussions taking place regarding Esperanza recently, but you've spoken with reason and civility at all times, even when provoked - I don't know how anyone could say you let them down in this regard. It's been a pleasure to discuss these issues with you, and I'd love to keep hearing your thoughts, whichever way this goes. Of course, stepping down from the AC is your decision, so I'll just say I support it and send you best wishes for the future. Quack 688 18:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Chili, it means so much to hear you say that, I can't thank you enough. Seeing as I might, at the latest, be staying on until the december elections, I doubt I'll dodge the stress of this though (oh well :)

Quack, thank you for your kind words. I will, of course, continue to contribute to these discussions, and I hope I can continue to work towards some kind of solution with great people like yourself :)

Thε Halo ^Θ 23:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Halo, there is no one (in my opinion) that is better for the job than you., because you a such an awesome person. But, if it does feel better for you, then go for it. You're one of those Esperanzians (if not the best ;) that make Esperanza a brighter and smarter place to be. Ditto to Chili, you are one of my fave Wikipedians too! ^_^ Adios, amigo. Kyo cat^meow! 23:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I do try.--Chili 01:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Halo, you are one of the Wikipedians I have met who displays a constant audacity to express his/her opinions and ideas. You have been a great leader, always making the decisions seeming best for Esperanza. I am sorry to see you submit your resignation from the AC, but I do hope you stick around here.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 01:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow, thanks Kyo and Ed. You're support means so much, I really can't put it into words. It is awesome to know that you feel that way, and I'm very greatful. Hearing such kind words from such great people is always overwellming :) Thε Halo ^Θ 10:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)