Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/SMS Berlin
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After quite a bit of time away from formal review processes, I'm getting back into it (I think we both know you missed seeing the stream of German warships passing through ACR). Berlin had an interesting career across three German navies, and was one of the few larger ships to survive World War II (though simply as a barracks ship). Thanks for taking the time to review the article! Parsecboy (talk) 12:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
HF
[edit]I'll review this over the coming week. Hog Farm Talk 03:10, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- As a bit of a comprehensiveness check, I've consulted Halpern's A Naval History of World War I and the only information about Berlin in that work is already well-represented in this article (towing the torpedoed Munchen)
- Infobox says she was recommissioned on 1 August 1914 but the body says 17 August 1914. Is the infobox just missing the second digit?
- Yeah, just a typo
- "when he was briefly replaced by KL Hans Walther" - the rank abbreviation KL is never given its full name in the article
- Good catch
- " and she was transferred to Wilhelmshaven, where she was decommissioned on 10 June " - had she ever be recommissioned after the 1917 decommissioning?
- Not until 1922, as far as I'm aware
- I see what's going on how - I had missed "had decided to reactivate the vessel to serve as a training ship for naval cadets" in the preceding sentence. Hog Farm Talk 21:01, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- Not until 1922, as far as I'm aware
- I would recommend in long place names lists such as "She visited Ponta Delgada, Hamilton, Bermuda, Port au Prince, Haiti, Colón, Venezuela, Puerto Madryn, Argentina, Guayaquil, Ecuador, Callao, Peru, and several ports in Chile, including Valparaiso, Corral, Talcahuano, and Punta Arenas" to consider ending each individual City, Country name with a semicolon instead of a comma, such as Port au Prince, Haiti; - I think this is recommended at time for lists containing indiviudal items with commas within them to make it clearer which sets in the list are individual items
- Good catch - I wrote this article a few years ago before I knew that was a thing
- The infobox says she was scuttled in 1947, is this an error for 1946 which is what the body and lead have? The article is also in a category for maritime incidents in 1947
- 1947 is a commonly cited date (presumably originating with Groener, which is also where the claim that she was used to dispose of chemical weapons originated), but Dodson & Cant correct it - apparently when I updated the article with their book a few months ago, I forgot to fix the infobox.
I think that's it from me. Hog Farm Talk 04:11, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your review! Parsecboy (talk) 15:23, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- Looks good; supporting. Hog Farm Talk 21:01, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
Support by Nick-D
[edit]This article is in good shape. I have the following comments:
- "("His Majesty's Ship Berlin")" - I don't think that this is necessary, especially in the article's first sentence which should be kept as crisp as possible per MOS:FIRST
- Works for me
- The sentance starting with "She was used to support" is over-complex
- Split and reworded
- "She had a crew of 14 officers and 274–287 enlisted men" - why the range in the number of enlisted men?
- Explained in the article
- I'd suggest adding a sentence or two about what the Agadir Crisis was about
- Added a bit on this.
- Do we know why this ship was selected as one of the 6 CLs Germany was able to retain after World War I? Nick-D (talk) 03:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
- It was one of the few that were left. Article 185 of the Treaty of Versailles specified 8 cruisers to be surrendered (in addition to what were interned at Scapa), leaving five more modern cruisers that could have been kept by Germany. But those were added to the list to replace ships that were scuttled at Scapa, leaving Berlin (and Hamburg) as the most modern cruiser available. I've not seen this explicitly stated however, so to spell it out in the article is probably tiptoeing closer to SYNTH that we'd like. Thanks for reviewing the article! Parsecboy (talk) 16:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Support Those changes look great, and I'm happy to support this nomination. Nick-D (talk) 09:48, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Comments Support by Pendright
[edit]- The design for the Bremen class was derived from the preceding Gazelle class, utilizing a larger hull that allowed for additional boilers that increased speed.
- that would increase speed or to increase speed
- Done
- that would increase speed or to increase speed
- Berlin served with the main fleet's scouting forces for the majority of her early career; during this period, she conducted unit and fleet training exercises, visits to foreign countries, and in 1908 and 1909, several long-distance training cruises into the central Atlantic.
- during this period, -> usually means during a specified time period
- Mix of tenses -> conducted (past), visits (present)
- Drop the comma after 1909 and add the ship made
- Atlantic Ocean
- Reworded this sentence to address several of the above comments:
- She was used to support German coastal defense forces and to scout for the High Seas Fleet; on two different occasions, she had to tow her sister ship Danzig back to port after the latter struck naval mines, and she had to tow her sister München after that vessel was torpedoed by a submarine.
- Substitute Berlin, the ship, or the cruiser for one or more of the three she(s)
- This was already reworded based on Nick's comments above
- after this vessel
- As above
- She thereafter served as a training ship for naval cadets, and over the course of the mid-1920s, embarked a series of long-distance training cruises.
- Drop the comma after 1920s and add Berlin embarked on a
- I think the comma is needed there
- Drop the comma after 1920s and add Berlin embarked on a
- She was decommissioned in March 1929 and kept in reserve until 1935, when she was converted into a barracks ship, a role she filled through World War II.
- the role since it is specific
- I don't think that's right in this case
- Three she(s)-same as above
- Fixed
Design
- Her propulsion system consisted of two triple-expansion steam engines driving a pair of screw propellers.
- Boilers are an essential part of steam propulsion systems. -> include Berlin's boilers as part of its steam propulsion system.
- Reworded
- Boilers are an essential part of steam propulsion systems. -> include Berlin's boilers as part of its steam propulsion system.
- Steam was provided by ten coal-fired Marine-type water-tube boilers, which were vented through three funnels located amidships.
- steam was generated
- Drop comma [,] which and replace with that: -> comma which tells readers what follows is additional information while that tells them the information is essential to the meaning of the sentence.
- Reworded per your comment above
- The ship was armed with a main battery of ten 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/40 guns in single mounts.
- on single mounts?
- Done
- on single mounts?
- For defense against torpedo boats, she carried ten 3.7 cm (1.5 in) Maxim guns in individual mounts.
- on individual mounts?
- Done
- on individual mounts?
Construction 1910
- The ships went to a series of sailing regattas over the course of the next few weeks; the first was in the Elbe river, followed by Kiel Week, and finally Travemünde Week.
- on the river?
- Fixed
- on the river?
Agadir Crisis
- She had to stop at Portsmouth, Britain, to coal and repair some of the storm damage.
- for coal and to repair -> for modifies nouns and to modifies verbs
- Coal can also be used as a verb
- for coal and to repair -> for modifies nouns and to modifies verbs
- The rest of Berlin's crew took the ship to Wilhelmshaven, where she was decommissioned on 29 October and placed in reserve, where she remained through mid-1914.[11]
- a comma is not used before where when Where introduces essential information
- I don't think that's right - the two subsequent clauses are all dependent on the first, which requires commas to offset them
- a comma is not used before where when Where introduces essential information
World War I
- The next day, the ships were transferred to the German Bight, where they supported the patrols guarding the German North Sea coast.[12]
- A comma is not used before where when Where introduces essential information
- Same as above, you always need a comma before a conjunction joins two clauses
- A comma is not used before where when Where introduces essential information
- Berlin emerged from the shipyard on 8 June.[11][14
- Berlin left or departed the shipyard
- Done
- Berlin left or departed the shipyard
Later career
- She was initially used as a training hulk for boiler room crews; she was moved to Kiel on 16 December 1919 for this role, which she filled for the next year and a half.
- The pronoun she is used three times in this sentence?
- Fixed
- The pronoun she is used three times in this sentence?
- She was reassigned on 1 October, and she began her furthest training cruise on 1 December.
- Change one she to a noun
- Done
- Change one she to a noun
- Berlin arrived back in Cuxhaven on 7 March 1929; from there, she was moved to Kiel, where she was decommissioned for the last time on 27 March.
- Drop the comma before where -> same as above
- Same as above, the comma is required there
- Drop the comma before where -> same as above
This is it - Pendright (talk) 01:33, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks Pendright! Parsecboy (talk) 13:05, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Supporting - Pendright (talk) 02:41, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Image review - pass
[edit]Six images:
- File:Bundesarchiv DVM 10 Bild-23-61-24, Kleiner Kreuzer "SMS Berlin".jpg, File:Bundesarchiv Bild 102-07600, Kreuzer "Berlin".jpg- PD in Germany - not PD in US but licensed as CC 3.0 by the ""Bundesarchiv - okay
- File:Bremen-class plan and profile drawing.jpg - 1904 US image - copyright expired - okay
- File:SMS Berlin NH 64262.jpg - US Navy image - okay
- File:Berlin vor Agadir 1911.jpg - Copyright expired in Morocco as author died in 1942 - no US copyright because published before 1930 - okay
- File:North and Baltic Seas, 1911.png - 1911 US image - copyright expired - okay
Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:39, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
Source review
[edit]- Do we have a source for footnote b?
- Added, along with some additional context
- Dodson is linked in Further reading but not in the references
- Fixed
- Spot checks: 22 - okay
- 11, 21 I may have a different edition of the book. In mine the cited entries are on pp. 132-134 [1]
- Interesting, it must be a different edition, since the cover of that version is entirely different from the one I have.