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John Sherman Cooper

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've just completed a major rewrite of this entire article and would like to get some eyes on the new version. I'm interested in eventually taking the article to FAC or perhaps a WP:MILHIST A-class review. Although Cooper's military career was brief compared to his political career, his time as ambassador to India influenced the Cold War and his later Senate career was dominated by his opposition to increased U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War. Acdixon (talk · contribs · count) 19:20, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you like my review (or even if you don't!), could you return the favor at Wikipedia:Peer review/Philip A. Payton, Jr./archive1?--GRuban (talk) 22:20, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Overall:
    • Excellent job! Very thorough, well written, interesting, engaging. Please don't let my nitpicking below discourage you, this is an FA worthy article.
    • Every single sentence has an inline reference! That's too much, especially when three consecutive sentences are all references to the same page or two in the same book, as happens often in this article. (53: Schulman, p. 69; 54: Schulman, p. 68; 55: Schulman, pp. 68–69) Just one ref at the end of the third sentence in that case will do, or even just at the end of that paragraph. Individual sentences need to be referenced when they are quotations, or controversial, likely to be challenged. This isn't a particularly controversial article, it doesn't need that much redundant referencing.
      • I get this comment from time to time, but I really prefer every-sentence referencing. It helps keep track of where stuff came from when it gets moved around in the article, and it lets me know where to go in order to find more details about something when a question arises (such as the questions you have below). Since I've had multiple FAs pass with every-sentence referencing, I'm inclined to keep this. The "material that is likely to be challenged" standard is WAY too subjective for my taste.
    • Spelling and leaving out minor words seem to be your Achilles heels, though. I list the ones I can, but it wouldn't hurt to copy the whole article into a modern word processor and see if it finds more.
      • Firefox used to have an on-the-fly spell checker for text boxes. Not sure what happened to it, but I surely miss it!
    • You should also link more terms. This doesn't mean that every noun must turn blue, but links are very useful for explaining complex concepts. Imagine that your reader is a teenager from South Africa or New Zealand or India, who is fluent in English, but not aware of the peculiarities of US slang or politics or history. (Why would she be reading this, then? Say it was assigned to her in school.) Would she know what any given word meant? "whitewash"? "roll-call vote"? If not, would not knowing impede her understanding of the article? If so, it needs a link to our article on that term that would explain it to her. I tried to point out some, but, again, I don't think I got them all. Worth trying.
      • I got a little gunshy about this a while back when I consistently got complaints about overlinking! Matter of preference, I guess, but I'm happy to oblige one way or another.
  • Lead
    • It's really long. Compare some Wikipedia:Featured articles about US Presidents (Republicans, of course!): Ronald Reagan barely more than half as long, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon, less than half as long, though the articles themselves are longer. Surely Cooper didn't accomplish more than they did; there must be room to trim the lead. I recommend by about half. Some specific lead removal suggestions: educated at Centre, Yale, Harvard; supported/opposed governor; Patton; circuit judge KY; Commissioner of Baseball; election opponents. These are fine for the body, but the lead should be the most important parts of the body. But your call as to just what details are the most important, the important thing is that there be ... fewer of them.
      • Yeah, I knew the thing was long, but I was having trouble deciding what to trim. Your suggestions are good ones, and I've done some trimming accordingly.
    • "politician and diplomat": you miss judge and/or lawyer. Unlike some politicians who hold a law degree but never use it, it seemed that Cooper did, serving in several law firms, and was even mentioned as a Supreme Court candidate. Or was the service in the law firms just cover for political lobbying work? If so, then you can leave out lawyer, but say as much when you mention the law firms.
      • I've added "jurist". That kind of catches "judge" and "lawyer".
    • We have a photo of his signature at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John-Sherman-Cooper-sig.jpg - we should use it somewhere. Isn't there an infobox field for it?
      • It's in the infobox already.
  • Early life:
    • Link (or rephrase, since the link goes to a DAB) "circuit judge"
      • Done.
    • Do we have an article for Farmer's National Bank? Should we? If not, can we explain its importance in a sentence? Was it the first, the largest, one of many?
      • No. I don't know if it's a big bank or a small one. It was just mentioned in the sources as though the reader would know. I've reworded to omit it.
    • If his father was also John Sherman Cooper, shouldn't he have been II, or Junior, or something like that?
      • I didn't find any place where such an appellation was used, including several years of newspaper articles about him. Since his dad went by "Sherman" and the subject of the article went by "John Sherman" (according to folks who remember him), perhaps they thought no further distinction was necessary.
    • "his father's coal mines" - so the Farmer's National wasn't the whole thing? If he owned a variety of businesses, that seems worth a sentence.
      • I think I've addressed this with my fix for Farmer's National Bank above.
    • If you link Civil War, you should link World War I as well. Also commencement speech.
      • Not sure how I missed WWI. "Commencement speech" might be WP:OVERLINKing, but I'm fine with adding it.
    • Cooper who - needs a comma
      • Yep. Done.
    • "matriculated to"? Not "at"? How about just "enrolled"?
      • It might be "matriculated at". Changed. I like the word "matriculated" though! :)
    • Beta Theta Pi could use a link
      • It's linked in the paragraph about his time at Centre. No need to re-link.
    • examiniation - sp
      • Corrected.
    • commenced practice - specify legal practice
      • Done.
  • Early political career
    • urged into politics by his uncle - This is the first mention that he had an uncle. Give his name, and a sentence about him - was he a politician himself? A good friend? Rich? Why was he influential?
      • He was a judge, but I forget now what kind of judge. Maybe county judge (since Sherman Cooper was dead by then) or maybe a circuit judge. Anyway, a local politician. I've named him and specified the title "Judge". I think that should suffice.
    • ran unopposed - that seems rare for a first time run. Was it? Did he have the backing of a powerful machine? Did no one else really want the job? Why not? Why unopposed?
      • As mentioned in the first paragraph of "Early life", the Cooper clan had a long political history in the county. Holding political office was basically his birthright. Schulman mentions that Cooper announced his candidacy on "court day", when most of the town gathered at the courthouse to observe the proceedings and talk about the local goings-on. Schulman records that, at the annoucement, cheers went up, but that Cooper opined that the cheers were more for his father than him. His candidacy was a foregone conclusion, and I think the family was probably so popular that opposing him would have been an exercise in futility.
    • You probably want to specify he ran as a Republican. If he did.
      • Done. I guarantee he ran as a Republican, because that section of the state has been a Republican bastion basically since there has been a Republican Party, even though the rest of the state is pretty solidly Democratic.
    • Strangely enough, our article Flem D. Sampson, which is quite long, and a Wikipedia:Good article, and even mostly written by ... some editor named User:Acdixon :-) ... doesn't mention the gov's "unsuccessful attempt to politicize the state department of health". Why is it important for this article but not that one?
      • It's been a long time since I worked on the Sampson article (circa 2 years). I don't remember if any of the sources mention his attempt to politicize the department or not. I can try to look again. However, in The Kentucky Encylcopedia, edited by the current state historian, the entry on Cooper mentions the politicization, while the article on Sampson does not. The idea in mentioning it is to show that he was politically independent (not beholden to his party) from the very beginning of his political career. It later became his hallmark.
    • sitting incumbent - isn't one of these 2 words redundant?
      • Never thought about it before, but yes. Fixed.
    • Somerset Bank - the same as the earlier mentioned Farmer's Bank? If not, a rival of JSC sr?
      • I assume this is just a local bank, probably not particularly noteworthy in its own right. I don't know if it was the same as the earlier mentioned Farmer's Bank – I'd guess not. It might have been a competitor, but since the incumbent (who wasn't named in the sources) was a law partner of Sherman Cooper, it's likely the two were not really personal rivals, at least, not in any noteworthy way.
    • link eviction or eviction notice, important concept to explain
      • I considered that earlier. Done.
    • seek psychiatric treatment - and this didn't crush his political career? Was it kept hidden? When was it, and for how long?
      • The sources don't say when or for how long, but again, he was still mostly a politician at the local level at this time, and locally, he was a member of the prestigious Cooper family. I doubt it hurt him much at all. In fact, they probably saw it as a sign of his deep empathy with the citizenry – a net positive – although that's just speculation on my part.
    • 8 years as a county judge starting 1929, ran for gov in 1939, enlisted in army in 1942 - what in between?
      • Apparently, nothing of note. Not even the Schulman biography says anything about that period. Probably just continued his law practice. Remember, he was still paying off his father's debts at the time.
    • link "nominating convention" (to political convention, nominating convention seems to go to presidential nominating convention for some reason)
    • Done.
  • Service in World War II
    • military government could use a link, courier, citation
      • Linked the first two. No really relevant link for citation.
    • "Among the non-Nazi judges installed by Cooper" - in other words, Cooper also installed Nazi judges? Did anyone install Nazi judges? If not, I'd remove the qualifier (and move the link to the next mention of Nazi).
      • Ack! That wasn't supposed to come across like that. The point is, he reorganized the courts by replacing the Nazi officials with non-Nazis. Clarified.
    • recinded - misspelled
      • Fixed.
    • In 1944, while he was still in the Army, - and in Germany?
      • Not sure if the Third Army was in Germany in 1944 yet. That was prior to VE day. He was probably somewhere in Europe.
  • First term in the Senate and early diplomatic career
    • Link Pulaski County, the last link was at the top of the page; judicial opinion (from opinion); abandonment; Louisville Times
      • Pulaski County linked on first mention in the body (Early life), "opinion" and "Louisville Times" linked; abandonment linked, but I think that's probably overlinking
    • termby - needsaspace
      • Fixed.
    • [[honorary degree|honorary] - fix
      • Fixed.
    • Centre College awarded Cooper an [[honorary degree|honorary] Doctor of Laws degree in 1948. - This sentence doesn't fit where it is, both by time and paragraph subject, since the paragraph is about his 46/47 election and moving to DC. I'd move it somewhere ... perhaps near "headed the Kentucky delegation to the 1948 Republican National Convention"? That's not perfect either, but at least gets him to 1948 and ties back to Kentucky.
      • Yeah, its always hard to tie those honorary awards in, but I felt like it was something worth mentioning.
    • Link War Investigating Committee, roll-call vote, war surplus
      • All done.
    • For a change, you can unlink something: Ohio! In this context, Taft's actual state doesn't matter, he was just an influential Republican.
      • Yes, but non-U.S. readers may want to know where Ohio is or something about it. I typically link states on first mention.
    • sponsored a bill provide 90 percent parity support - what? Rephrase for grammar and link "parity support" somewhere, I don't know what this means.
      • Well, besides the fact that that was a truly wretched sentence (probably as a result of careless editing and re-editing by yours truly) I don't know much about what it means either. It does have to do with price supports, so I've reworded and linked that. Hope it helps.
    • injured as prisoners the Germans - needs some word - maybe "by"?
      • How about "of", as I've corrected it now?
    • link union membership or compulsory union membership; budget deficits; Secretary of State.
      • Linked "compulsory union membership" to "closed shop"; budget deficits is almost certainly overlinking; linked Secretary of States
    • "Speculation was raised" - does this mean Finch speculates, or reports that others speculated at the time? If the former, rephrase.
      • He reported that there was speculation at the time, although not by whom.
  • Second term in the Senate
    • was chosen to participate in the annual reading of George Washington's Farewell Address - is this really worth mentioning? I don't know, if it's an important honor, certainly do, but our article on it doesn't imply as much
      • Probably not. This was a relic of a time when I didn't have much info on this particular term in the Senate. Removed.
    • Link Mexican Farm Labor bill; Eisenhower (and/or Eisenhower administration)
      • Not sure what "Mexican Farm Labor bill" should link to. This is what the source called it, but I don't know the legislation's official name or if we have an article on it. Linked Eisenhower
    • What did he have against Albert M. Cole? Our article on Cole doesn't say he was controversial. Explain (or, optionally, improve the Cole article so that explains the controversy).
      • I'll have to look that one up again.
      • Found it. He was an open opponent of public housing. I remembered there being a reason; I just couldn't remember what it was.
    • featured on the cover of Time magazine - why? What was the focus of the Time article on him?
      • The article is linked in the Bibliography; it provides a brief overview of Cooper's career to that point, and the hook is his upcoming race against Barkley.
    • increasingly tense situation in Southeast Asia - needs a link to some article about the buildup to Vietnam war, we must have plenty.
      • I'm writing around my lack of knowledge here a little bit. I've linked to First Indochina War, but I'm not sure that's the most appropriate link.
  • Ambassador to India
    • including Nehru's sister - I'd give her name as well. If she was an important diplomat, it seems disrespectful otherwise.
      • I'll look again, but I don't think it was mentioned in the source.
    • Domenico Orsini - if he's important enough to name-drop, link. If not, maybe leave out?
      • We don't have an article, but we might need one. I don't know how important he was, but the name was in the source.
    • She was also fluent in three languages and also understood Russian. - one also too many
      • Agreed. Fixed.
    • This phrase referred Goa - to
      • Fixed.
    • Indian Foriegn Secretary - sp
      • Fixed.
  • Later service in the Senate
  • Opposition to the Vietnam War
    • concens - sp
      • Fixed.
    • Unlink Oregon
      • See previous comment.
    • Defense Deparment - sp
      • Fixed.
    • link deaf - common concept, but important
      • I really think this is overlinking.
  • Later career, death, and legacy
    • We seem to have several German photos of him circa 1975 at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:John_Sherman_Cooper - pick at least one and use it here. Also, maybe it's worth a few words to explain why he would be meeting with important Germans in 1975.
      • I'll take a look. I was really hoping someone near Somerset would get a picture of the statue for me for this section.
    • recipeient - sp
      • Fixed.
    • link Beta Theta Pi, last one was long ago
      • Is it really necessary again?
    • by his second wife, - give her name as well
      • Done.
    • RECC? link or explain the abbreviation, John Sherman Cooper Power Station doesn't mention it
      • Unfortunately, I don't know what it means, and the source doesn't spell it out. I think REC is rural electric cooperative, but I don't know what the other "C" is for, and it's apparently important, because it's the difference between an organization and a power plant!

Again, very nice. --GRuban (talk) 23:14, 12 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for a very thorough review. A few open issues remain; I'll get to those soon. Acdixon (talk · contribs · count) 15:05, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ack! In responding to my comments, you removed a revision. There weren't many that I added in that revision, but there were a few. I'll try to put them back. --GRuban (talk) 15:18, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about that. I got an edit conflict and tried to do a copy-paste, apparently with questionable success! Acdixon (talk · contribs · count) 16:04, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nice. A few more:

  • Lead:
    • Cooper gained the confidence of Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru and dramatically improved relations between the U.S. and the recently-independent state of India, helping rebuff Soviet hopes of expanding Communism in Southeast Asia. - I think you mean South Asia. If you mean that Cooper's concern in India was primarily Vietnam, you need to say more on that in that section in the main article.
      • Actually, I think the idea was that, if India remained a democracy, it could put a barrier between the Soviets and parts of Southeast Asia, but again, my knowledge of the Cold War is very weak.
        • Unfortunately (since (a) it makes me feel old, and (b) it was not a happy time), I have a bit of first hand knowledge of the Cold War, and can tell you that if the Soviets could have gotten Communism in India, the second most populous country, and largest democracy, in the world, they would not have minded losing in Vietnam or nearly anywhere else. They certainly tried. But that's all WP:OR. If you are quite sure that your sources say "Southeast Asia" and not "South Asia", and you want to say that in the lead, then you need to say more on that in the Ambassador to India section. The lead is supposed to be a summary of the rest of the article, and currently the Ambassador to India section focuses on US relations with India directly: Goa, direct aid, arming Pakistan, are all issues that don't have much to do with Southeast Asia, the one half sentence about SEATO and Indochina seems to be a casual mention. If you want, you can remove the qualifier and just say "helping to rebuff Soviet hopes of expanding Communism in Asia", which should cover both South and Southeast. --GRuban (talk) 15:42, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • Good suggestion. Done.
    • In 1960, Cooper was re-elected. securing - period should be a comma
    • Fixed.
  • Ambassador to India:
    • The move to India removed this barrier, and Secretary of State John Foster Dulles encouraged - we gave the full name and title 1 para up, just Dulles should do here.
      • Good point. Done.
    • Nehru's sister looks to have been Vijaya Lakshmi Pandit; she headed the Indian UN delegation. His other sister was Krishna Hutheesing who was not a diplomat.
      • Nice. Thanks for tracking that down.
    • Nehru's respect and admiration for Cooper soon became widely known among his political allies - whom does "his" refer to here, Cooper or Nehru? Perhaps both? Why allies? Maybe just end at "widely known", since presumably their political adversaries were also apprised?
      • Good suggestion. The excellent rapport between Cooper and Nehru was not lost on the Soviets either.
    • Portuguese Foreign Minister Paulo Cunha - check your spelling or something, since that link seems to go to a basketball player. Or maybe he was a true renaissance man? :-) "Peace in our time; and a killer jump shot!"
      • Well, since I hold dual citizenship in the U.S. and the Big Blue Nation, I'd like to think all the world's problems could be solved through basketball, but I seriously doubt this was the same guy. Not sure if I just saw that there was an article by that name and automatically linked it or what.
  • Later career, death, and legacy
    • A life-sized bronze bust of Cooper sculpted by John Tuska was installed at the Kentucky State Capitol in 1987.[8][8][103] - I know reference 8 is important, but...
      • It's not like I haven't already cited that source about 5,832,906 times already in the article; I think we can do without doubling it here.
    • In June 1990, Massachusetts Senator Edward Kennedy and Washington Post publisher Katharine Graham were among the attendees at a gala showing of Gentleman From Kentucky - I'd remove the namedropping. The important thing was that the documentary was made, not who attended the first showing, especially since this man hobnobbed with (or was a thorn in the side of) presidents, so that a mere senator, presidential brother, and unsuccessful presidential candidate, attended, does not seem a big deal. You may want to instead put a sentence about the documentary; did it cover his life from alpha to omega, like this article, or did it focus on some part?
      • Haven't seen it, but KET does occasionally replay it. Maybe I can get my almost-one-year-old daughter to stop watching Phineas and Ferb long enough to catch it on one day. (Oh, who am I kidding? She's got me hooked on P&F too!)
  • Finally:
    • Any chance you could glance over the Payton article? As an author of multiple FAs, you must have lots of good suggestions. --GRuban (talk) 23:10, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I typically don't do peer reviews, GA reviews, or FA reviews because you have to baby-sit them until all your concerns get addressed, which takes away from my article writing. However, you've given me a really good review here and been very responsive, so I'll try to give this a look. Acdixon (talk · contribs · count) 14:48, 17 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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