Wikipedia:Featured sound candidates/May 2007
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I think this recording is pretty nice and adds a lot to the article it's in. I'm trying to help clarify what the standards for featured sound will be by nominating something.
This recording is included in Victimae Paschali Laudes. It's possible it would benefit other articles, but I haven't spammed it everywhere. Mak (talk) 21:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- Support - highly encyclopedic, lovely recording. Moreschi Talk 19:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
- Support. Overall, it's beautiful—you can spam it. Vocal qualities are highly suitable for this genre. Control of vibrato, colour and tempo is superb. Reverb wouldn't want to be any less, but is fine. If I had to nitpick, (1) quite a few of the notes are not perfectly pitched, and (2) next time, try placing the mike a little further away to avoid intrusive consonants (just a few of them, here). Congratulations. "in a room off a street in a city on a river"—Ha! Perhaps "in a private venue"? Tony 23:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
- Support simply lovely and very well-sung! Gretab 23:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
- Support. Another nicely done recording that enhances its article. :-) Kat Walsh (spill your mind?) 01:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- Support, of course. Very, very beautifully sung. Antandrus (talk) 01:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- Weak support. Concur with Tony's points. I think this an example of a minimum standard for a featured (musical) sound. There are however, ways it could be improved. It would be better if performed by a choir in a more resonant setting, and at a slower tempo. The speed of this recording would not suit a resonant cathedral. So in a sense the recording illustrates the music in an inauthentic way. But since Wikipedia is not a cathedral, I'll support. -- Samuel Wantman 03:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
- I concede that the tuning is not perfect, but I disagree about your comments about performance practice. Sequences were not only sung in Cathedrals, but also in convents, abbeys, and local churches, which would not have a 15 second echo. Also, as for choral singing, according to Grove's article on sequences: "The performing practice history of the sequence is ambiguous. It apparently began as a solo chant but became a choral one in a large number of establishments," since this is an early sequence, it's quite possible it was sung solo at times. Now, if you feel like going to fact that men and boys were supposedly the only ones to sing chant, this particular sequence can be found in Codex las Huelgas, a manuscript which was used for services at a convent. Mak (talk) 14:20, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- Is there any evidence that it was common for a solo singer to have sung this at this tempo? Are there any commercial recordings of this at this tempo with a solo voice? Is there documentation of any performances in recorded history done this way? I am supporting, but I think this information is relevant to how we document the performance. Someone listening to this recording, unfamiliar with chant might think that this is the way it is commonly performed. I don't think that is the case. Since we are creating an encyclopedia, we need to be careful about details like this. -- Samuel Wantman 17:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- Erm. From "Performing practice" "Little is known about the sort of voice production favoured over the centuries, or about dynamic level or tempo: vocal colour, loudness and speed affect the way chant is sung and heard, but the musical sources are silent on such matters." and "The vast majority of texts relating to performance matters simply recommend moderation in choice of tempo and pitch, together with sweetness of voice production." To me, this is a moderate tempo. If it makes you feel more settled I studied with two of the people who recorded for the latest edition of Grout's music history textbook (Burkholder/Grout/Palisca, the text used in most universities in the US). May I ask, do you have a background in performance practice? Because this seems like a strange question to ask in this context. Mak (talk) 18:41, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- Tempo and performance practice: Original tempo is one of the most difficult aspects of early performance to determine, since metronomes did not exist in those times. I suspect that many "authentic" recordings of early music are faster than the composers envisaged; modern performers, perhaps justifiably, perceive that the public sensibility favours it—life has simply sped up. I hope I'm not frightening the horses by saying this. Tony 23:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict) For a few years I sang in a medieval/renaissance choir. And for a while was a classical music programmer on a radio station. I don't recall chants or plainsong ever being sung this fast. I don't have any recordings that go this fast either. I don't think it is so fast as to oppose it, but I think it would be better slower. I am not an expert on this, just speaking from what I've experienced and heard in recordings. I'm asking these questions because I'm genuinely interested in knowing if what I think is so, is really so. -- SamuelWantman 23:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, fair enough. As Tony said, tempo is one of the things which is least known about in terms of performance practice, particularly for such early stuff. I was taught that chant should be sung as though declaiming text. This is the speed at which I would declaim this text. That may not be valid, but it is the method ascribed to by many singers who specialise in early performance practice, such as Paul Hillier and Paul Elliott. I jumped on iTunes, and the first recording I clicked on sounded to me like about the same tempo, it was the Benedictine Monks of the Abbey of St. Maurice and St. Maur. A number of other recordings were also the same speed, including the Choir of Benedictine Nuns at the Abbey of Regina Laudis. For performances of such chants as a solo, see "The Age of Cathedrals", particularly "Natus est rext", with Paul Hillier and Theatre of Voices (full disclosure - I wrote those articles). I think accepted performance practice of this stuff has shifted significantly since the '70s, which may be part of the disconnect here. Mak (talk) 08:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- I guess that dates me. Thanks for the info. -- ☑ SamuelWantman 04:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
- Per all of that discussion, support. -- Phoenix2 (talk, review) 23:54, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- I guess that dates me. Thanks for the info. -- ☑ SamuelWantman 04:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, fair enough. As Tony said, tempo is one of the things which is least known about in terms of performance practice, particularly for such early stuff. I was taught that chant should be sung as though declaiming text. This is the speed at which I would declaim this text. That may not be valid, but it is the method ascribed to by many singers who specialise in early performance practice, such as Paul Hillier and Paul Elliott. I jumped on iTunes, and the first recording I clicked on sounded to me like about the same tempo, it was the Benedictine Monks of the Abbey of St. Maurice and St. Maur. A number of other recordings were also the same speed, including the Choir of Benedictine Nuns at the Abbey of Regina Laudis. For performances of such chants as a solo, see "The Age of Cathedrals", particularly "Natus est rext", with Paul Hillier and Theatre of Voices (full disclosure - I wrote those articles). I think accepted performance practice of this stuff has shifted significantly since the '70s, which may be part of the disconnect here. Mak (talk) 08:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Erm. From "Performing practice" "Little is known about the sort of voice production favoured over the centuries, or about dynamic level or tempo: vocal colour, loudness and speed affect the way chant is sung and heard, but the musical sources are silent on such matters." and "The vast majority of texts relating to performance matters simply recommend moderation in choice of tempo and pitch, together with sweetness of voice production." To me, this is a moderate tempo. If it makes you feel more settled I studied with two of the people who recorded for the latest edition of Grout's music history textbook (Burkholder/Grout/Palisca, the text used in most universities in the US). May I ask, do you have a background in performance practice? Because this seems like a strange question to ask in this context. Mak (talk) 18:41, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- Is there any evidence that it was common for a solo singer to have sung this at this tempo? Are there any commercial recordings of this at this tempo with a solo voice? Is there documentation of any performances in recorded history done this way? I am supporting, but I think this information is relevant to how we document the performance. Someone listening to this recording, unfamiliar with chant might think that this is the way it is commonly performed. I don't think that is the case. Since we are creating an encyclopedia, we need to be careful about details like this. -- Samuel Wantman 17:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Promoted Victimae Paschali Laudes.ogg --KFP (talk | contribs) 10:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a sample of music from the GPL game "Battle for Wesnoth- I believe that this is striking to the ear, and demonstrates how close Wesnoth is to a commercial-quality game.
- Nominate and support. - Borisblue 05:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
- As if you'd nominate and oppose. Let's drop the redundant support by nominators here? Support—Aren't they lucky to have such good music, well recorded, for a game. Tony 06:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC) PS Except that the info file says nothing about who the performers and recordists are, and when and where. That would be nice. Tony 06:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
- It's not my fault- the "nominate and support" thing is in the template for creating this page :( Anyway, I know the artist's name, and I'm pretty sure it's his work alone. Actually, I think his name needs to be on the image page anyway by the rules of GFDL. Good catch. Borisblue 06:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC
- The wesnoth forums aren't working at the moment, but when they're up again I'll get more information about how he composed this piece (maybe some sheet music as well) Borisblue 06:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
- It's not my fault- the "nominate and support" thing is in the template for creating this page :( Anyway, I know the artist's name, and I'm pretty sure it's his work alone. Actually, I think his name needs to be on the image page anyway by the rules of GFDL. Good catch. Borisblue 06:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC
- Support - high-quality recording, good stuff. Moreschi Talk 13:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
- Support nicely done, good illustration for the article. Mak (talk) 15:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
- Support - Great game music. Some parts vaguely remind me of the Morrowind score. I agree with borisblue; this music definitely comes close to a professional/commercial level, and is certainly one of the best examples of free domain video game music there are. Berens 01:45, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
- There's a forum post where the composer talks in detail about the similarity to Morrowind. Oh, and now that I'm here, I'm also in support, I think it's a good example of original music for a GPL game - and once the next major Wesnoth version is out, there will hopefully appear some reviews on the web mentioning the music, which will allow to extend the section about the game's music in the article. --Allefant 08:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Promoted Wesnothmusic.ogg --KFP (talk | contribs) 10:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
This sound file does everything right. It illustrates clearly the complexity of this specific aria (explained in the articles), the genius of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, and why it stands out from the rest of the opera. A wonderful performance, and a beautiful rendition, makes it very enjoyable, and entertaining, as well as educational. It makes you want to hear it over and over again. And best of all it's GFDL and Creative Commons. Please feel free to compare it to the listed youtube.com links at the bottom of the Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen article page (I didn't pick any of them). I feel this one is much superior.
Details follows. I've taken the liberty to copy some of the information from the file's main page.
- Work
- Composer: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
- Performers
- Sandra Partridge, soprano
- Trisdee na Patalung, conductor
- Siam Philharmonic Orchestra
- Location
Thailand Cultural Centre, Bangkok
- Date
April 5, 2006
- Created by
User:Trisdee, listed above as Trisdee na Patalung in the performers section, is the conductor of this recording. (Excellent work)
- Licenses
- GFDL (Thank you so much)
- Creative Commons
- Nominate and Support all the way. - Witchinghour 21:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
- Hm, tough one. The orchestra is very good, and the singer obviously has a lot of talent. It's a live recording, so you have to expect some imperfections. There are a number of points where the soprano's tuning just isn't good, and at one point in the mid-range it sounds like her voice cracks. Perhaps as a singer I'm being too harsh, though. I've heard better live performances, but I certainly couldn't put one together myself. I'm gonna go with support for a very good recording of a difficult piece. Mak (talk) 22:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
- Support. I agree with Makemi about the voice almost cracking, but as far as FS go, this really isn't that bad. --Tewy 22:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
- Oppose:
You're kidding... the soprano has a nice voice, and some aspects of her musicianship are good, but it's seriously out of tune. That kills it as a recording for any purpose, let alone promotion here. The orchestral sound is OK, except that it sounds a little boxy. Tony 05:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
- Tony, I don't feel like "you're kidding" is a positive place to go here. The level required for featured sounds hasn't really been found yet, the process is still new. I was on the edge about supporting or opposing, because of the obvious problems we both noticed. I respect your decision to oppose, but I wish you hadn't added "you're kidding". Mak (talk) 15:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
- Oppose: I have to agree with Tony. This is an OK recording of a fair performance. I don't think it is good enough to be featured. -- Samuel Wantman 08:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- Support. OK, it's not perfect, but in the still-emerging world of FSes I think this belongs as among the most valuable recordings we have for the encyclopedia.--Pharos 23:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
- I have to disagree with this line; the existing body of FS's should not have a bearing on our judgement of the eligibility. I'd be upset if this were promoted; musical standards have to be seen to be high for the award of an honour such as this. Tony 02:42, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- We make decisions about articles using literary standards. It is embarrassing to see poorly written prose promoted to FA status. It must be the same for music and sounds. They must be examples of our best work possible. The fact that we don't have many files is not a good reason to lower standards. -- Samuel Wantman 05:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- I do think standards should evolve over time. Obviously, not all of the first FAs and first FPs would meet today's standards. And it is quite possible that this recording, even at this stage, will be found lacking by the consensus. But I do believe that, among the issues considered, the difficulty of arranging a large ensemble work should be given extra brownie points, so in some way this has as much or more value to us educationally than a flawless recording created by one person.--Pharos 19:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- No, I don't think the size of the ensemble should give it brownie points. There are many recordings of this aria floating around, so the educational value of making a seriously out-of-tune one Featured on WP escapes me. I'm sorry to be blunt, but this would be good for a send-up, and we don't want that. It's a notoriously difficult feat to bring off, and singers make fools of themselves by attempting it prematurely. Let's not teach people that this is a good thing. Tony 23:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- I do think standards should evolve over time. Obviously, not all of the first FAs and first FPs would meet today's standards. And it is quite possible that this recording, even at this stage, will be found lacking by the consensus. But I do believe that, among the issues considered, the difficulty of arranging a large ensemble work should be given extra brownie points, so in some way this has as much or more value to us educationally than a flawless recording created by one person.--Pharos 19:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Thank you all for your contribution to this discussion. Here is the score for this aria in lilypond, PS and PDF formats. The license is Public Domain. --Witchinghour 10:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Not promoted --KFP (talk | contribs) 11:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)