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Beverly White

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Beverly White (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 30 December 2024, 09:37 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.
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Nominator(s): Jon698 (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Beverly White, who was the longest serving woman in the Utah State Legislature. During her career she would sometimes be the only woman to chair a committee, held multiple leadership positions within the Democratic caucus, and was awarded as legislator of the year multiple times by multiple groups. She was also incredibly active in the Utah Democratic Party and the national party. Jon698 (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Steelkamp

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As a biography and a politics article, I'm interested in reviewing this. Steelkamp (talk) 02:41, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • Three paragraphs in the lead start with the same word (White). Can this be reworded?
  • (off topic comment: I am surprised that the districts of the Utah House of Representatives don't have Wikipedia articles)
  • "She was educated at Tooele High School. She married Floyd White, who also became involved in politics. She entered politics with her involvement in the Tooele County Democratic Ladies Club and later became active in the Tooele County Democratic Party." This contains three sentences that start with the same word (she).
  • I would link Tooele High School and Tooele County in the lead.
  • "White first held office with her appointment to the Utah Board of Pardons by Governor Cal Rampton." I think a date for this should be mentioned.
  • "She was on the board until Rampton appointed her to fill a vacancy in the state house created by Representative F. Chileon Halladay's death." I think a date for this should be mentioned too.
  • I recommend linking whip (or a more specific link target if one exists).
  • "She died in 2021." This sentence can be removed, as her lifespan is already mentioned in the first sentence of the lead.
  • Can an image of White during her political career be used for the infobox instead.
    • I suggest adding a caption saying the year the image was taken, or published if the original date is not known.

Early life

  • "Her husband was elected to the city council". Is this the Tooele city council? Probably best to specify in the article.

Career

  • For both images in this section, I reckon the "upright" parameter should be used, otherwise the images are quite big. E.g. [[File:Calvin L. Rampton.jpg|thumb|right|upright|alt=Photograph of Governor Cal Rampton|White was appointed to serve on the Utah Board of Pardons and in the [[Utah House of Representatives]] by Governor [[Cal Rampton]].]]
  • "She served as vice-chair of the Tooele County Democratic Party during the 1960s. She served as a delegate to the Utah Democratic Party's state convention multiple times.[3][4][5][6] She served as secretary of the Utah Democratic Party for sixteen years until she was defeated by D'Arcy Dixon in 1987." Should be reworded as that's three sentences in a row that start with the same word.
  • "She was the secretary of the Utah delegation at the 1972 convention.[14] She served as an uncommitted alternate delegate to the 1976 convention.[15] She was a delegate for U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy at the 1980 convention." Same as above.
  • "During the 1976 United States House of Representative election Representative Allan Turner Howe" -> "During the 1976 United States House of Representative election, Representative Allan Turner Howe"
  • "as both of them were moved into the 21st district by redistricting." Is this strictly true that they were "moved into" the district, or did they both choose to contest the district? Would "as both of them moved into the 21st district due to redistricting" be better?

Political positions

  • The problem with the abortion paragraph is that it starts by saying White was opposed to abortion but the rest of the paragraph outlines ways in which she is in favour of it. I think the change in her views should be more explicitly mentioned.
  • "In 1977, the Utah state house voted 55 to 5, with White against, in favor of a resolution calling for a constitutional convention to amend the Constitution of the United States to ban abortion." I think this sentence is quite confusing. How about "In 1977, White voted against a resolution calling for a constitutional convention to amend the Constitution of the United States to ban abortion, while the state house voted in favour 55 to 5."
  • "and that anyone who would send them through the mail would be arrested." -> "and that anyone who sent them through the mail would be arrested."
  • "The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that capital punishment was unconstitutional in Furman v. Georgia ending the usage of capital punishment in the United States until the Gregg v. Georgia ruling." I think a comma should be added like so: "The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that capital punishment was unconstitutional in Furman v. Georgia, ending the usage of capital punishment in the United States until the Gregg v. Georgia ruling."

That's all for my first round of comments. Steelkamp (talk) 07:10, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Steelkamp: I have done all of your suggested edits except for three. I will have to look on Newspapers.com to see what specific city her husband was on the council and for a better image of White. White did change her political views over the course of her life. Would this be an acceptable changed? "During the 1970s White supported making abortion laws more restrictive, but was criticized by Nelson for her support of abortion rights during the 1990 election." Jon698 (talk) 17:34, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What about something like this: "During the 1970s White supported making abortion laws more restrictive, but by 1990, she supported abortion rights". And then the thing about Nelson can be left chronologically. Steelkamp (talk) 08:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Steelkamp: Done. Jon698 (talk) 14:12, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just did the image and added where her husband was a member of the city council. All I need is your thoughts on that change in the abortion segment. Jon698 (talk) 17:55, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Second read through
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  • "who served in the Utah House of Representatives from the 57th, 64th, and 21st districts". Is this grammatically correct in American English? To me, it would sounder better as "who served in the Utah House of Representatives for the 57th, 64th, and 21st districts" but I would understand if the former is better in American English.
  • " and as a delegate to every Democratic National Convention from 1964 to 2004" -> "and was a delegate to every Democratic National Convention from 1964 to 2004"
  • "She lost reelection in the 1990 election to" -> "She lost reelection in 1990 to".
  • "On April 8, 1947, she married Marion Floyd White, with whom she had five children, at the Salt Lake Temple and remained together until his death in 2004." -> "On April 8, 1947, she married Marion Floyd White, with whom she had five children, at the Salt Lake Temple. They remained together until his death in 2004."
  • "Her husband was elected to the Tooele city council". Any idea what time period this was? Perhaps a year range.
  • Her occupation before becoming a state representative is conspicuously absent.
  • I think it should be said that although the election was in 1990, she lost her seat in 1991.
  • "She served as secretary of the Tooele County Council of Governments and the Tooele County Planning Commission". Are these positions in the state legislature? Otherwise why is this in this section?
  • @Steelkamp: I have done bullet points 1,2,3,4, and 7. I don't know if from or for is the proper term for representing a district, but it is a minor thing. As for her career there is not really a lot that can be said about it and she seemed to have been a stay-at-home mom. I don't know if I can find the exact years her husband served on the city council due to a lack of good coverage from Newspapers.com. For the "I think it should be said that although the election was in 1990, she lost her seat in 1991." comment would you like me to change the lede from "Following her tenure in the state house" to "After leaving the state house in 1991,"? Jon698 (talk) 17:43, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Steelkamp, how is this looking now. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:44, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm reluctant to support a biography with such an empty section on early life. There is very little info there about her pre-political life and career. I also think the prose could do with some improvement, as its choppy in parts. E.g. these are two very short sentences right next to each other: "She graduated from Tooele High School. Her father died on June 25, 1978." Another example is "During the 1976 United States House of Representatives election, Representative Allan Turner Howe was convicted of soliciting sex. White joined other leaders in the Democratic Party in calling for a resolution to ask Howe to withdraw from the election as he would hurt the chances of other candidates and so that a replacement appointment could be made." This could be reworded as "After Representative Allan Turner Howe was convicted of soliciting sex during the 1976 United States House of Representatives election, White and other Democratic Party leaders called for a resolution to ask Howe to withdraw from the election so as to not hurt the other candidates' chances and so a replacement appointment could be made." This sort of thing often appears throughout the article, where sentences could be combined to make the prose flow better. Sometimes, there are unrelated short sentences next to each other, which makes it hard to combine them, but this also is an indication that the article is not comprehensive. I understand it is really hard to research this as there is no comprehensive biography on Beverly White out there and you are reliant on newspaper sources, but I don't feel comfortable supporting based on comprehensiveness and prose issues. Steelkamp (talk) 07:34, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have great news. I found a copy of Women Legislators of Utah, 1896–1993 and I hope that it can help me expand this article. Jon698 (talk) 09:05, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Steelkamp: I was rather disappointed by the book. Her section is only two pages long, pages 165-166. Her autobiography only gives us at best two paragraphs for her early life. Could you take the rather limited information regarding her early life, especially from White herself, in consideration for the comprehensive nature of the article? Jon698 (talk) 09:29, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Generalissima

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Just a quick thought - if we're using a Fair Use image anyway, why not one of the much higher quality images from this article as opposed to a low-quality newspaper scan? Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 06:15, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • (Unsolicited comment) When using non-free media, we have a responsibility to use the "least un-free" option available: WP:FREER is the relevant guideline. There is a good argument that a scan from an old newspaper is no longer of any commercial value -- the newspaper company is no longer selling that paper, and very few people can access it anyway, so no business or publicity is lost. On the other hand, if we co-opt an image from the Salt Lake Tribune, that might mean that some readers (for instance, using Google Image Search) end up here rather than the SLT website, or else that we push them down the search-engine rankings, which would have very obvious commercial, advertising and publicity implications. Whether that argument is definitive or convincing here, I will leave up to others. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:50, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Generalissima: Also all of those images are of her in her 80s-90s. The page was previously using one of the images from that article. Jon698 (talk) 02:22, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that using an image from when she was active in politics is best, but it's unfortunate that the current image there is low quality and I encourage you to find a better quality image. Have you looked in Women Legislators of Utah, 1896–1993? Its possible that there is a better image of White there which could be scanned. Steelkamp (talk) 07:26, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Generalissima, any thoughts? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Ganesha811

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  • I should have time to review this tomorrow - looking forward to reading over it. —Ganesha811 (talk) 21:48, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Her mother died - what about her father? Where was he?
  • Her husband was elected... any information on the time period when they were elected?
  • tenure as secretary what kind of position is secretary? Is it equivalent to chair, or was it a record-keeping position? Could clarify in text.
  • Doing math, we can deduce she was elected as secretary in 1971 - is that correct? Should be mentioned in text. Is that four terms - how long were terms?
  • Some description of where the 57th, 64th, and 21st districts are, geographically, would be helpful.
  • Is there any more detail available about her 1970s elections? Why did she lose in 1990 after facing no opposition for 3 elections straight as Democrats gained? Noting that her position on abortion is mentioned later in the article as a possible factor - any others? That could be mentioned earlier.
  • How many other women served in the state house at the same time she did? Any notable working relationships with other legislators, male or female?
  • Any detail available about what she did to be named legislator of the year in 1987? Who gave the award?
  • Any more detail about this controversial $50,000 debt? Held by who and owed to whom?
  • In general, the article seems a bit thin on detail. There's not much on her early life, personal life, character/reputation. It's a bit better on legislative accomplishments, but still scant - much of the article just reads like a dry listing of positions run for and attained or denied. Anything notable in her role as chair of the Social Services Committee? Or as member of Management Committee? The political positions section only discusses 4 topics - any other areas to note?
  • I know it might be tough to dig up this kind of detail on a state legislator as they don't tend to attract tons of individual attention, but I'm sure local newspapers will have had coverage and indeed the Salt Lake Tribune seems to be a major part of the sourcing. The more detail the better, this article isn't close to overdetailed yet. Overall a good read and few grammar or phrasing issues (seem to have been mostly addressed above). —Ganesha811 (talk) 18:11, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ganesha811: I added more details about her mother and the death date for her father. I was unable to find any newspaper sourcing for why her father decided to have her aunt and uncle raise her instead of himself. I'll be looking for geographic details of her districts and the 1970s elections stuff now. Jon698 (talk) 17:47, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ganesha811: I have added some material for why White might have lost the 1990 election. Her time with the hospital is listed as one of the reasons she lost and I'll be addressing the $50,000 issue soon. Is this added material suitable to address your concern? Jon698 (talk) 19:04, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also added a segment about a lawsuit against her that attempted to unseat her. It is in the tenure section. Jon698 (talk) 19:06, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The additions are good - I made a couple tweaks to one of them. I'd move the sentence about Nelson being critical of her abortion position to the paragraph about the 1990 election earlier. I think with that the 1990 issue could definitely be crossed off. —Ganesha811 (talk) 20:09, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ganesha811: I have done what you asked. I have also added some information to the 1970s elections and expanded upon the hospital debt issue. May I cross those two off the list now? As for what she did as secretary of the Utah Democratic Party, it seems she did just perform secretarially duties like calling stuff to order. I also added a bit about her and the five other women that served with her in 1974. Jon698 (talk) 18:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I added a line about her opposition to an income tax refund and eliminating the sales tax. I will try and find other economic issues she talked about or voted on. I also added a line about her being a member of the LDS Church. Jon698 (talk) 18:18, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I'd say just about everything I raised has been addressed, though the hospital debt thing could be rephrased to be a little clearer - I can take a swing at it, or you can if you'd like. Just be sure to scrub your additions for any grammatical errors. Thanks for the improvements! After you're done making changes I'll take a fresh look in a day or two. —Ganesha811 (talk) 18:24, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

*Although more detail on the "legislator of the year" award would still be good to have. —Ganesha811 (talk) 18:26, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ganesha811 Ping! :-) Gog the Mild (talk) 21:48, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should have time to look through today or tomorrow. —Ganesha811 (talk) 22:15, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Second look from Ganesha811
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  • She was the longest-serving - is she still the longest-serving female member, or was this only applicable at the time?
  • aunt Margret and uncle Dunn - is Dunn a first name? What was their last name?
  • What year did her father marry Margaret Vernon? The specific dates of her father and mother-in-laws deaths are probably too much detail - the years are fine.
  • "and remained married" inserted between the 5 children and the death date would help with flow, assuming it's true.
  • add "at" or "for" before JCPenney
  • Re: Howe, I think we could simply say that White and the other leaders called for Howe to withdraw, not that "they called for a resolution to ask Howe to withdraw", which complexifies matters.
  • Hallady, who served add "had"
  • "27-mile", not "27 mile"
  • She defeated Smith add "once more" or "again" or similar
  • her support for abortion rights add "for" before this phrase
  • Central Women Club of Utah is there a typo here? Women's Club?
  • it was debated This sentence should be swapped to move the phrase about Wilkinson to the start, making it less passive.
  • When was Debbie Winn elected?
  • equalized the amount equalized the amount or equalized the level/rate?
  • @Ganesha811: I have address all of your comments except for points 2 and 11. You can see this edit, and the two after it, for the changes I made. The source only lists the first names of her uncle and aunt. Central Women Club of Utah is what the source calls it and I know of organizations in my area that use that phrasing as well so it is probably not a mistake. Jon698 (talk) 13:25, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, fair enough. Two final comments - are there any sources anywhere that discuss the fact that her father re-married only a month after her mother died? Secondly, the lead describes her as an "activist and politician", but reading through, I see a lot of politics and little to no activism. Are there any reliable sources which describe her as an activist? If not, I think the lead should just describe her as a politician. —Ganesha811 (talk) 13:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ganesha811: I looked closely for any newspaper coverage of it using many parameters while working on stuff from Steelkamp, but I found nothing discussing their marriage besides its announcement. I removed activist from the lede. Jon698 (talk) 14:05, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Edwininlondon

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Good to see more articles about women here at FAC. I have some minor comments:

  • White married --> she married
  • the whole article is still having a lot of "served" or "serve" sentences. Can we reword some?
  • Howe did not withdraw ..--> and what happened to the other candidates? Did they indeed get affected by Howe?
  • I am not sure about the sub-section titles: the 1st one is Politics, but the 2nd one is Utah House of Representatives, which is odd being of the smae level as Politics.
  • White won reelection to the 64th district in the 1972 election --> is reelection technically correct if she was appointed without election in 1971?
  • LDS Bishop --> probably better rendered as Latter Day Saints Bishop
  • seventy-two --> I think as per MOS:NUM this is correct, but just checking if you deliberately chose not to use digits here. A little earlier there is 27 miles, and later we have "voted 51 to 20"
  • Nelson criticized her for being the "most liberal" member of the state house, her support for abortion rights, and for the high number of legislative votes that she was absent for --> this doesn't seem to flow very well: the 2nd item in the list should probably in the same style as 1st and 3rd.
  • White ran for the position of Minority Whip in 1984 --> repetition of sentence structure
  • White also helped --> I would drop the also here
  • She received the Eleanor Roosevelt Award in 1994 --> is it known for what?
  • She aided in the --> repetition
  • The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that capital punishment was unconstitutional --> when?
  • In the Categories box there is a link to 20th-century members of the Connecticut General Assembly. Is that an error?

That's about it for the prose. Edwininlondon (talk) 19:40, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Edwininlondon: Thank you for your comments. I have already answered the easy ones, such as minor changes or errors, and will get to the bigger ones like points 2 and 3 later. For point 1, it is standard practice to have the first mention of the person in a paragraph be their name. Also do you have any suggestions for how I should reword for point 8? Jon698 (talk) 20:59, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Edwininlondon: For the Howe point: State Treasurer David Duncan simply stated that Howe would "hurt the whole ticket". No specific candidates were listed in the source. Would you like for me to reword the sentence to "called for Howe to withdraw from the election in order to select a replacement candidate." Jon698 (talk) 13:32, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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