Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Belvidere Apollo Theatre collapse/archive1

Belvidere Apollo Theatre collapse

Featured article candidates/Belvidere Apollo Theatre collapse/archive1

Nominator(s): Departure– (talk) 16:04, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the collapse of a theater venue in Illinois which had been hosting a sold-out concert. This is my first FA nomination, and the article has been out for around a week; it was assessed as B class and I've significantly expanded it since then. I have around 98% authorship but from my spot checks everything's cited, no tags are present in the article, and it has a good mix of sources. I do cite a Facebook post but I believe it's acceptable as a matter-of-fact statement by the Belvidere Fire Department. Departure– (talk) 16:04, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from EF5

I love to see this at FAC, and I'll neutrally give feedback:

Images need alt texts.
A second paragraph in the lede would be marvelous, or at least paragraph out the current one.
NWS -> National Weather Service for consistency.
Template:2023 tornado outbreaks should be added.

Will do a prose review soon, but these are my opening comments. :) E_F⁵ 16:40, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, thanks for the suggestions! Departure– (talk) 17:10, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now that my anxiety is a little simmered down, a ~~prose~~ lede review:

Lede:

causing the ceiling of the theater to suffer a critical structural failure and collapse onto a sold-out concert headlined by the death metal band Morbid Angel. Although not required, I'd suggest rewording this to say "causing the ceiling of the theater to cave in and subsequently collapse onto a sold-out concert headlined by the death metal band Morbid Angel".
with over 200 in attendance 200 what? "people" or "concertgoers" should go after the "200".
and was determined to have had winds of 90–100 miles per hour (140–160 km/h) struck the theater, The "km/h)" should have a comma at the end and as a result the comma after the "theater" should be removed. While we're at this sentence, , causing the failure of the lower roof structure, with large amounts of debris falling into the venue should probably reworded to say ", causing the failure of the roof's lower structure; large amounts of debris fell into the venue as a result".
Multiple people were buried by debris caused by the collapse How many? It's best to be specific where possible.
which was met with a swift response per WP:PEACOCK, I'd remove the "swift", but that's just a suggestion.
one was pronounced dead at the scene and 27 were taken to hospitals by ambulance, out of a total 48 that suffered non-fatal injuries. As above, one what? While I do know that it's referring to, some readers may not.— Preceding unsigned comment added by EF5 (talk • contribs) 19:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the first claim, we have next to no detail surrounding the specific means of collapse, so saying that the ceiling caved in would come without RS media's support. The wind speed thing bypassed my spot checks when I rewrote the lede. Over 200 in attendance will be changed to over 200 in the venue; I'm using "multiple" because the figure was over 10 but was never specified and 48 injuries occurred. I believe the swift response thing is discussed in RS media, and it is known that debris from the collapse made it onto the stage so I can't say anything about specifics other than the fatality being a concertgoer. Departure– (talk) 20:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've gotten the above claims adjusted but the swift response claim will have to be verified by me later on. I believe the speed of the response was emphasized in the press conference, but if you see it in the lede but not the article that means I'll have to add it in the prose with a citation. Departure– (talk) 20:22, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, no, it's already cited. Comments on the response were in the article, and are cited to Alicia Tate-Nadeau who my work here and on the 2021 Naperville tornado gave her her first links related to actual disaster response. Speaking of, this should be added to the disaster response project. @EF5:, you're more familiar with the rating tool, could you do that for me? Cheers! Anyway the quote is [i]f it wasn't for the fast and coordinated efforts, on Friday night, we would have seen a more tragic outcome from events from today and it's cited to Pritzker's visit to Belvidere under the Aftermath section. Departure– (talk) 20:50, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, good job! I'll take one last look tomorrow, and apologies if I did something wrong as I've never really commented on an FAC before. :) E_F⁵ 21:33, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It appears I've forgot. Anyways, great job on the article! Support, as I have nothing to add. E_F⁵ 18:52, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Borsoka

This is my first review of an article of a catastrophe, so sorry if some of my comments would be amateurish.
Was the district known as "North State Street Historic District" already in 1922?
I would introduce Belvidere as a city in the state of Illinois in the USA in the first sentence.
Could you add a background about tornadoes in Illinois or Belvidere (no more than two or three sentences)?
In 2017, the venue was owned by Maria Martinez. Why is this relevant? In the previous sentence 2022 was mentioned, and the tornado struck the venue in 2023.
Introduce Morbid Angel, and the other bands in the main text.
Is spring the tornado season in the region? Either yes or not, this could be mentioned.
EF3, EF4, EF1?
Event coordinators recorded that 260 were inside the Apollo Theatre that night, including concertgoers, performers, and staff. ABC7 Chicago reported that the concert had been completely sold out. The concert begin at 7:00 pm. I would change the sequence of the three sentences: 3th, 2nd, 1st. What is ABC7 Chicago?
...the National Weather Service records...The National Weather Service damage survey determined ... Tenses should be used consequently.
...3 to 5 feet... Could you convert them to meters as well? Borsoka (talk) 10:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
...caused by the collapse Delete.
Decode EMS.
The United States Tour of Terror 2023 resumed with a performance in Hobart, Indiana on April 2. Is this necessary? If yes, one sentence cannot make a paragraph. (Perhaps this info could me mentioned in a note at the first sentence of the second paragraph of section "Response".
...six firefighters who assisted... Why not past perfect?
...six firefighters who assisted in the response to the collapse at the Annual Fallen Firefighter Memorial and Medal of Honor Ceremony in Springfield, Illinois. Rephrase to avoid misunderstanding (did the collapse happened at the annual ceremony?)
Shortly following the collapse, the sole deceased victim had been identified as 51-year-old Frederick Livingston Jr. of Belvidere. Livingston had been at the concert with his son Alex, who survived the collapse despite standing nearby when debris from the roof crushed his father. Consolidate the two sentences to avoid repetition of information mentioned in section "Response". Perhaps, "The sole deceased victim, Livingstone had been at the concert ...."
...had been created to raise money... Why past perfect?
...following his death Delete.
Introduce WLS-TV.
By June 28, 2023, six lawsuits had been filed against the theater for failing to protect concertgoers from the risk of injury or death. Some more info to create a paragraph?
...the collapse, when Belvidere Fire Chief Shawn Schadle stated... I would split the long sentence into two: "...the collapse. Belvidere Fire Chief..."
File:CollapsedApolloTheatreBelvidere.jpg: could the date/relative timeframe mentioned in the caption ("in an hour after the collapse" or "hours/days after the collapse")
The lead needs a comprehensive copyedit because it contains repetitions and its chronology is unclear. Borsoka (talk) 11:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for this interesting article. Borsoka (talk) 11:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure about the North State Street Historic District; that'd require more research on my end.

A referenced sentence in Belvidere North State Street Historic District says that it was recognised as such in 2012. So I think the sentence should be rephrased: "in the area now known as ..." or something similar.

Adding mention of Belvidere being the largest city and seat of Boone County would require a citation that might be out of scope, but I could have it with the NSSHD above.

I would not say that it is the largest city and the seat of Boone County. I would only introduce Belvidere because I doubt that all our readers have learnt of this city and the state of lllionis.

I'll add a bit of background of tornadoes in Boone County. Belvidere was hit pretty bad in 1967.
The owner was added there because I needed more for the background section but I'll get rid of it; they're re-introduced in the reaction section.

My concern is that the sentence is out of context. It could be rephrased: "Since 2017, it has been owned by Maria Martinez./In 2017, Maria Martinez seized the property/...". Furthermore, this info is relevant before the venue's 2022 reconstruction is mentioned.

Is the tour information not enough of an introduction?

For me, not. :) Borsoka (talk) 01:48, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure about tornado season, but maybe I'll find more about that.
I'll substitute other tornadoes for the text-based "significant", "major" and "violent".
I'll re-arrange that, but I just wanted to attribute the text to a source. ABC7 Chicago had the most indepth coverage of this event specifically.
I'll reword attributions to the survey.
3 to 5 feet in a {{cvt}} tag incoming.
Easy enough.
The tour resuming was mentioned and I think it's important because one tour date was skipped; I can't say it directly because it wasn't easy to find in a source.
For both firefighter parts, there might have actually been seven. I need to re-check that, but I know six of them were from BFD in particular.
Lawsuits are currently pending, and the number might actually be up to eleven, but I'll have to re-check that.
I believe the survey was on 1 April, so I'll recheck the DAT.
Lede CE incoming. Departure– (talk) 17:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

FYI, per this, Maria Martinez was still the owner when the roof collapsed, along with her husband.
Could you split up the Dan Zaccard et al. interview into multiple cites and give offsets for the approximate locations of the supporting clips? Twenty-two minutes is too long for a reader to be able to easily find the supporting material. {{Cite AV}} will let you cite a time offset.
"A historic severe weather event occurred on March 31 across northern Illinois. Having anticipated the severe conditions in advance, the Storm Prediction Center outlined a rare high (5/5) risk convective outlook": "anticipated" is redundant with "in advance". "Outlined" seems an odd choice of words, and "convective outlook" is opaque to most readers, and I've no idea what "5/5" means, even after following the link. Giving the outcome in the first sentence means you have to go back in time for the forecast, which convolutes the syntax. Suggest "On the morning of March 31, 2023, the Storm Prediction Center forecasted a high risk of severe weather events for two areas ...", possibly adding whatever is intended to be conveyed by "5/5". I think we also need to explain "Enhanced (3/5) risk".
You use the pluperfect a couple of times in the "Timeline" section, but I don't think there's a need to do so -- we're narrating a sequence of events so "An emergency operations center was established" and "a tornado watch was issued" seems fine. Searching for "had" finds quite a few more I think you could look at -- any reason not to just use simple past tense in the "Collapse" section, for example, and for most of the "Victims ..." section? There are certainly some cases where it's correct, such as in the "Response" section.
"Also at this time, the National Weather Service records that the damage path of an EF1 tornado had begun": suggest "At about the same time, an EF1 tornado began southwest of ...". There's no need to give the source since it's cited and reliable.
What makes the facebook post of the video of the tornado a reliable source?
"During this time, one concertgoer stated they recalled the windows breaking due to high winds, which was followed by multiple audience members being led to the venue's basement, until the tornado approached the building": I don't see most of this in the cited source.
Per MOS:ORDINAL, don't start a sentence with figures.
Per MOS:RANGE don't use "between" with an en dash range.
"which described the incident a mass casualty collapse": missing a word?
"however allowed firefighters to enter the building": another missing word?
Check for uses of "however" -- it's easy to overuse and can often be deleted, tightening the prose without changing the meaning.

At this point I started skipping further down the article to spotcheck for writing and grammar issues. A couple more:

"who survived the collapse despite standing nearby when debris from the roof crushed his father": we've already said his father was the only fatality; we don't need to repeat that he survived.
"Hopes for the Apollo Theatre's recovery began shortly after the collapse, when Belvidere Fire Chief Shawn Schadle stated that he believed the building would get remodelled after preliminary surveys by structural engineers indicated further collapse of the venue was unlikely and that repairs may be plausible." A long sentence that would benefit from splitting; and that's a misuse of "may" at the end -- it should be "might".
"expressed interest in sharing resources for the Apollo Theatre's response to the collapse, with one architect also expressing that": avoid repeating unusual words like "express" in such a short span. I would just use "say" for the second one -- see MOS:SAID.

Weak oppose. Sorry, I don't think this is quite at featured level yet. I think the article would benefit from a copyedit to meet the "well-written" requirement of the criteria, and there are a couple of MoS issues. I've made this a weak oppose because it's a short article and I think can probably be fixed while still at FAC if you can find a good copyeditor to work with. The list of issues above is not long, but it's also not exhaustive; I only glanced through the second half of the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:42, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments from Thebiguglyalien

At a quick glance, I'm not sure whether I'd consider the sourcing high quality here. If we use Wikipedia:Tiers of reliability as a reference, virtually all of the sources fall under the passable-but-not-great Tier 3. It also seems like there are some unnecessary minor details in here, such as the quotes from different figures that don't really say anything. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:24, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose this is an effectively unfixable problem. This is an event from less than two years ago where coverage was thick locally but ultimately it hasn't received much followup beyond tier 3 of those yet. I hate to hear this but this is an unfixable problem for the time being. I've included nearly every source I could find that wasn't just regurgitating old information. Departure– (talk) 05:01, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]