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March 7

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Category:Champagne_socialists

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. -- TexasAndroid 15:52, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This category is both empty and displays very little NPOV. Furthermore, a list of people who have been described as champagne socialists is already available at Champagne_socialist.

Who decides whether a person is rich enough (or left-wing enough, for that matter) to be included? Categories without defined criteria for inclusion should be avoided. Stevecov 23:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:England under-21 footballers to Category:England under-21 international footballers

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The result of the debate was Rename. -- TexasAndroid 14:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For consistency with the proposed renaming below. Qwghlm 22:57, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:England footballers to Category:England international footballers

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Rename. -- TexasAndroid 14:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is a category for football (soccer) players who have played for the England national football team. I feel that (1) it is a little too similar to Category:English footballers, and (2) when compared alongside categories such as Category:Northern Ireland footballers and Category:Republic of Ireland footballers (which cover all footballers with their respective nationalities, not just internationals), it becomes potentially confusing. Including the word "international" would make it clear what the category covers, and would draw a clearer distinction.

See also previous discussion at Category talk:England footballers. Qwghlm 22:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Golf trophies and awards

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The result of the debate was Delete. -- TexasAndroid 14:47, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This category seems to be a result of a usage confusion (the whole of Category:Sports trophies and awards is a bit of a mess). In the United States vast numbers of sports awards are handed out, but in the world awards are much fewer and trophies go with competitions. The ten items in this category are all for golf tournaments, so it is just a very incomplete dulplicate of Category:Golf tournaments. Delete. Osomec 19:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC).[reply]

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Category:Municipalities in Zelaya

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The result of the debate was Delete. -- TexasAndroid 14:43, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Redundant category on former state (Zelaya) and not up-to-date (state presently splitted into two new districts ([1] of Región Autónoma del Atlántico Norte and [2] of Región Autónoma del Atlántico Sur). ╫ ２５ ◀RingADing▶ 18:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC) ╫[reply]

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Category:Category needed to Category:Categorization needed

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The result of the debate was Keep as is. -- TexasAndroid 15:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Most articles fall into more than one category. David Kernow 15:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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American people by national or ethnic origin

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The result of the debate was no consensous. -- TexasAndroid 15:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

rename category names without the ungrammatical hyphen as was done recently all pages for Canadian people. (note too that a few cat pages for American people recently were not renamed from no hyphen to hyphen in voting on this page.) these names use two words, an adjective 'fooian' to describe a noun 'Americans', as in 'Fooian Americans'. a hyphen is only necessary and grammatical when two adjectives describe a noun, as in 'Fooian-Booian Americans' or 'Fooian-American (actors)'. Mayumashu 14:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC) Rename or merge the following:[reply]

  • Rename for grammar. I tried to convince someone of this on a category talk page a while back, but got the impression nobody cared. NickelShoe 19:08, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per proper grammatic phrasing. This too has bothered me that there were two different forms within the European Americans categories and no one seemed to mind. Also made it more difficult trying to classify any given individual because you wouldn't know if the ethnic group was listed with or without a hyphen. ExRat 06:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC) - EDIT - Also, isn't the correct term SLOVAKIAN and not SLOVAK AMERICAN? The term Slovak seems just a little . . . incorrect as a proper descriptive term, although I know it is used . . . but maybe it's just me. ExRat 06:21, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
looks like from i could check here that 'Slovak' refers to the people and things of the ethnic group where 'Slovakian' describes things/people of the modern country. there could be two separate cat pages with one the sub-cat of the other if any Americans exist with bio pages here of Slovakian roots who are not ethnically Slovak Mayumashu
  • Oppose I disagree that the hyphen is ungrammatical. In the unhyphenated form (e.g. Albanian American) the sense is Adjective + Noun; the semantic implication of this is that the person is an American who has Albanian nationality (in the same way that Albanian writer describes a writer who has Albanian nationality). At best this is an unlikely combination (barring people with dual nationalities); at worst it is self-evidently nonsense. On the other hand, the form Albanian-American implies that the person is an amalgam of Albanian and American; in the context of the American practice of obsessing over "ethnic" identity this is understood as meaning an American citizen who was previously an Albanian citizen, or who had an ancestor who was Albanian. The term for such combinations is Hyphenated American and this has been in use for somewhere in the region of a 100 years (as has the hyphen). Grammar is ultimately a matter of usage; if the hyphen is regularly used and has always regularly been used then I'm not sure we can peremptorily declare it ungrammatical. Valiantis 15:21, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose These are "hyphenated Americans". If there is a rule of grammar here perhaps it is out of date. The English language changes, but people who are sticklers for grammar tend to like to pretend it doesn't. The hyphen seems to me to de-emphasise the non-American identity, which is desirable because these people are Americans first and foremost. Carina22 16:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
this kind of makes sense then as the language here reflects a cultural difference - it seems likely that a majority of Americans prefer the hyphen to add more emphasis to American identity of the person while a majority of Canadians prefer the non-hyphenated (traditional grammar) form perhaps to emphasis internationalist feeling. i want to see consistency here like nearly all serious users here and suggest we establish the inconsistency here as a difference between prefered American and Canadian Englishes and get the American cat pages all with hyphens (just the Canadian ones were all recently non-hyphened) Mayumashu 02:26, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't buy into the notion of a U.S./Canada dichotomy, either. Furthermore, it wouldn't surprise me if there were different feelings on this issue among members of different ethnic groups; I don't necessarily think we need a foolish consistency in the hyphenated Americans. Gene Nygaard 07:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Despite my comment above, I'd like to see the consistency of hyphenating the ones that aren't. It makes it easier for editors adding the categories. I think the differences that might exist in usage or preferences are only a matter of degree. Gene Nygaard 19:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I agree. There absolutely has to be consistency whatever the decision is reached. It is far too difficult while editing profiles to try and simply guess which ethnic group is or is not a hyphenated American. If the decision is to keep the hyphen, then I suggests the other groups are then hyphenated. ExRat 04:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
and were considering nouns here. it s traditional grammar as presented in the usage manuals versus (rather) common usage (based on what was grammar confusion initially, i d guess but anyway) and as users have mentioned language evolves. Mayumashu 14:44, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the Economist Style Guide says to use a hyphen, both for the noun and the adjective. —Blotwell 06:02, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Prisons in Washington state

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The result of the debate was delete. (With no prejudice against creating a DC cat if one is needed at a future date) -- TexasAndroid 16:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unpopulated category. Duplicates Category:Prisons in Washington, created in error by me last night whilst ceating several prisons in xx categories for US states as sub-categories for Category:Prisons in the United States. -- BrownHairedGirl 10:38, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Northern Irish cheese to Category:Northern Irish cheeses

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The result of the debate was Rename as nominated. -- TexasAndroid 14:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(Not really enough support for the alternate rename, though that could be given it's own, new nomination easily enough.)

To conform to other named cats. The category Category:Northern Irish cheeses has already been created. Please delete the older cat. --Mal 09:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Vibrant Districts in Winnipeg

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The result of the debate was delete. -- TexasAndroid 15:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Who decides what is vibrant or not? A category without a clear criteria for inclusion is generally not a good idea. Qutezuce 06:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Puzzle games

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The result of the debate was Delete. -- TexasAndroid 14:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This well-populated category had an identity crisis because half its entries should have been in Category:Puzzle computer and video games while the others were various kinds of Category:Puzzles which editors had decided were in some sense games and were therefore "puzzle games". I went through and recategorized all its contents a few days ago, which is why it's now empty apart from the cruft that has accumulated since. I believe that the term "puzzle game" doesn't have any commonly accepted, useful, well-defined meaning except "puzzle computer/video game" so the only legitimate function of a category with this title would be to duplicate Category:Puzzle computer and video games. —Blotwell 06:08, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support, with the caveat that I'm way too close to this subject matter to be unbiased. Here's why I think this is right: Most computer games are solo, so puzzles are very common tests of skill. Most tabletop games are multiplayer, where puzzles are less useful. So there's a lot of well-known puzzle computer games, and far fewer known tabletop puzzle games.--Mike Selinker 07:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: There are, however, a few non-computer games that are clearly "puzzle games". Most people know of Master Mind. Others like Code 777 are clearly centered on solving a puzzle, and some like Scrabble are based on existing puzzle formats. But I'm not sure that any except MM and S are notable by WP's standards, and two entries don't seem like enough to justify having a second category. Weak support for the proposed deletion, since the existing categories are sufficient and this one would be mostly duplication. Barno 21:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment (by nom) It's worse than that: there are numerous non-computer games that could be called puzzle games: for example solitaire or Dingbats (and others of that wave of "board" games that involve drawing a card and solving the puzzle on it). These are all games with some puzzle aspects: they might suitably belong both in a "games" category and a "puzzles" category, but there isn't really a unifying characteristic to justify classifying them together. And that's just my opinion: what was in the cat before I emptied it was not these, but a ragbag of poorly-chosen things like Rush Hour (board game) (definitely a puzzle and not a game, IMO).
In some sense I wouldn't mind recreating one or more very similar categories to hold all these things: the problem is just that with the name "puzzle games" everyone seems to mean something different by it, so it's unmaintainable. —Blotwell 02:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Regional theatre to Category:Regional theatre in the United States

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The result of the debate was no consensous. -- TexasAndroid 15:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is a U.S. category, but the term is also used in the UK and very likely in other countries with a culturally dominant largest city, such as France. Bhoeble 06:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Basin Electric subsidiaries

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The result of the debate was Delete. -- TexasAndroid 14:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This category is unneeded because the Basin Electric Power Cooperative article only lists two such subsidaries. A category that could only ever have two articles in it is unnecessary, in my opinion. --MatthewUND(talk) 05:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Canadian trade unions to Category:Trade unions in Canada

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The result of the debate was no consensous. -- TexasAndroid 15:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This nomination is for all such namings at Category:Trade unions by country. It would be more correct to have these categories listed as "Trade unions in Foo", rather than "Fooian(?) trade unions", as there are unions which operate in several countries (eg. AFL-CIO). It also appears to be the more common naming convention. Bookandcoffee 05:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose It is not the more common naming convention. Few trade unions are international and a separate category can be created for them if necessary. Bhoeble 06:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment You got me curious - so I went and counted them. There are 176 sub-cats at Category:Categories by country, and this is the breakdown:
    • 130 list as "Economy of Canada", or "Botanical gardens in India".
    • 30 list as "Canadian law" or "German beer".
    • 7 were a mixture of methods.
    • 4 were other sorts of cats, that may or may not belong were they are.

I know, it only adds up to 171. Somewhere I missplaced 5. :) This was a 10 minute project on the back of a sheet of paper... but the ratio is pretty clear. I'm not interested in moving them all to the same format. I just want to establish what it's going to be for the trade unions, so I can finish adding countries. --Bookandcoffee 07:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose The ratios are irrelevant as the form used for each topic area is decided on a case by case basis. And the result would have been very different if you had counted all the categories for people and those in Category:Categories by nationalityOsomec 16:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • But this is "Trade unions by country" - not "Trade unions by nationality". I agree that these things are case by case. My main thought in changing this was centered on the idea that the categories are used to address trade unions that operate in a country, not trade unions that are a part of a country. In the example above, the AFL-CIO is listed in both Category:Canadian trade unions and Category:United States labor unions - but you wonld never say that the AFL-CIO is a Canadian trade union. Other examples of cross border unions are the NUJ and the IBEW.--Bookandcoffee 18:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I didn't say it is trade unions by nationality, but the holes in your data needed to be pointed out as you appeared to be making a false suggestion that a certain naming style should be mandatory on the basis of incomplete information. The vast majority of unions are national because each country has its own labour laws. Organisations should be categorised by where they are based because otherwise some could end up in far too many categories. International categories are used to cover international organisations. Osomec 19:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, I don't see any manditory claims being made here, but my data was certainly incomplete. :) Category:International union federations is for the ICFTU, and WFTU, etc. who are international federations, and they would not be listed in each country. The only crossover that would occur already occurs - the "national level" union centers such as the AFL-CIO are already listed in their appropriate national categories. I'm just saying the name of the category should reflect the fact that they are not necessarily country specific.--Bookandcoffee 20:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • International federations and international unions are not the same thing. You can create a category for the latter if you think it is necessary. Osomec 23:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • I don't think it's necessary - that's why I'm here! :) This change is nothing more than an attempt to recognise that unions already listed in the category are not defined by that particular country. i.e. Trade unions in Canada are not all Canadian trade unions.--Bookandcoffee 00:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support makes sense. Although should it be Category:Trade unions of Canada or Category:Trade unions in Canada ? - FrancisTyers 19:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose If this mainly about Canada, create Category:International trade unions operating in Canada or the like. As a general principle "in" categories should only by applied to physical objects which are "in" a particular place. This is especially crucial in my specialist area of companies, where a couple of attempts to create "in" categories have been nipped in the bud to prevent some companies being added to the 200 or so countries in which they operate. Carina22 16:01, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Satellite meteorology and remote sensing to Category:Weather satellites

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The result of the debate was Keep. -- TexasAndroid 15:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


The former category seems to duplicate the purpose of the latter. I suggest merging. -- EmperorBMA|話す 03:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Magic from the Bartimaes Trilogy

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The result of the debate was delete. -- TexasAndroid 15:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This category seems fairly ill-considered. The trilogy it categorizes spells from doesn't appear to have an article (Bartimaes Trilogy). Even if it did, separate articles for the spells is itself a bad idea. There's currently one article in the category, and it is up for deletion (Black Tumbler). NickelShoe 03:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, per nom. Powers 12:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Delete Misspelled. Should be Bartimaeus trilogy. Category:Bartimaeus Trilogy should probably be decapped. Septentrionalis 21:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for finding that. NickelShoe 15:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, per nom. Alan Liefting 06:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:People who worked with David Lynch

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The result of the debate was delete. -- TexasAndroid 15:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


This category was created first, and no one complained about it two months ago. (Ibaranoff24 03:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC))[reply]

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Category:People who worked with Ralph Bakshi

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The result of the debate was delete. -- TexasAndroid 15:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. How about "People who worked with Mark Hamill" or "Thomas Edison" or "Pol Pot" or...

  • Comment - I created the category in response to finding the category Category:People who worked with David Lynch. If my category gets deleted, delete this one, too -- the Lynch category was created first. (Ibaranoff24 02:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC))[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Staecker 02:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- This is a good idea for several reasons: Memory. Let's say you want to read about the vocalist who sang the Twin Peaks theme, but you can't recall her name. This makes it possible to locate her quickly. Also, not everyone is credited. Bakshi talks about Wally Wood on DVD extra of WIZARDS, but there is no credit to Wood in the film's credits. Only by reading obscure articles would someone know that Wood had worked for Bakshi. Susan Tyrrell asked that she not be credited for her narration of WIZARDS because she thought it would be a setback to her acting career; because of the curiosity about the film's narration, she later talked about what a mistake she had made in removing her name. Edward Norton did extensive work on the FRIDA screenplay but Writer's Guild rules kept him from being credited. These are just examples to indicate how this type of listing can provide valuable information. In some cases, the info that someone worked for a certain person might exist only in a single, forgotten interview on TV or in a magazine. Pepso 04:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Use google for that sort of thing. If this system is taken to the extremes you are suggesting the number of categories on some articles might reach hundreds, most of them meaningless to most people. The category system is a navigation tool, not a search engine. Bhoeble 06:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't know, that seems like it might be more logical as a list. But I don't know if people might want to delete the list too. NickelShoe 04:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Not a primary characteristic. Some articles will end up with dozens of categories if this is widely copied. Bhoeble 06:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete This seems frivolous, and could open up an endless string of "Category:People who worked with Rodney Dangerfield", or "Category:People punched out by Frank Sinatra", or "Category:People quoted as liking The Beatles". Like Bakshi, those are notable celebrities. Where do you draw the line? — Tenebrae 08:44, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Not a good precedent for categorisation. I would support deleting the David Lynch one too. --Ryano 11:05, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Bad precedent. Osomec 16:33, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Bhoeble Deborah-jl Talk 16:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Bad precedent, as per Bhoeble. BrownHairedGirl 22:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Bad precedent as per the prior. Carlossuarez46 17:50, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, even though I created the category. (Ibaranoff24 06:05, 10 March 2006 (UTC))[reply]
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