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Archive 5Archive 6Archive 7Archive 8

RfC: Swastika size in infobox (2, take 2)

Consensus is to use the image specified in option E in the infobox.Winged Blades Godric 16:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposals:

  • A. The swastika at the top of the sidebar should be reduced to upright=0.27 (60px)
  • B. The swastika should stay at upright=0.40 (87px), which it has been at since December 25, 2016
  • C. The swastika should be returned to upright=0.45 (100px), which was the result of the earlier RfC
  • D. Remove the swastika, and do not replace it with another graphic
  • E. Replace the swastika with the Nazi flag at upright=0.27 (60px)
  • F. Replace the swastika with the Nazi flag at upright=0.40 (87px)
  • G. Replace the swastika with the Nazi flag at upright=0.45 (100px)


Here is a comparison in isolation of the 6 graphic choices:

60          
          

You can also see what they look like in a sidebar at Template talk:Nazism sidebar/Sidebar choices.

I will be contacting all editors who previously participated.

Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:34, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

I believe that I have now notified all editors who took part in the previous aborted RfC. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:47, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Survey (2, take 2)

  • E Although I think it would be better to decide for the swastika or the flag first. Bertdrunk (talk) 02:36, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • E The last infobox demo above uses E and it is visually the best. Second preference D because the plain swastikas are too ugly, and the larger sizes are unduly confrontational. Regarding confrontational, it's not that I'm concerned about upsetting a delicate reader, it is just that an infobox is not the place for a large in-your-face decoration. Johnuniq (talk) 02:43, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • E However, the flag of the "Nazi Party" not Nazi Germany / the Third Reich; re: discussion / difference being placement of the Swastika within the flag (see above). Maineartists (talk) 11:53, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Any of the five image choices presented above are fine with me, so I'm effectively at an Oppose D. I do not find any of the arguments presented so far to remove the image convincing. If the flag is selected, I much prefer the centered Flag of the Nazi Party per the reasons presented by Mandruss in the prior RfC. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 11:57, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • A, or E, but if E, centred (NSDAP flag?), it's simply an identifier and I don't think the background colour either adds or detracts from identification (unlike 'red flag' for Socialism), neither does it add or detract much 'visually' IMO, but as others seem to like the added colour, fine. Pincrete (talk) 18:01, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • D -- no image. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:28, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • E - This is primarily aesthetics to me, but there is nothing wrong with looking good. To my mind, some graphic is visually better than no graphic, and this is the best of the graphic options. As I've said earlier, a dash of color (besides the ubiquitous blue) improves the aesthetics, further narrowing the choices to E-F-G. I favored F in comments in the earlier RfC, but I am changing my mind after comparing the mockups. E properly subordinates the graphic to the heading "Nazism". Use |frameless|upright=0.27 please, per WP:IMGSIZE. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:56, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose D, prefer E, the NSDAP flag is preferable, why hide a symbol that as been historically associated with Nazism for nearly a century. --Nug (talk) 11:06, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • D, no symbol (see below). Carlotm (talk) 03:15, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • E the swastika on its own has other older uses, using the NSDAP flag makes it clearer as the source of Nazism, and the sizing is right compared to the heading. Oppose D - this is not de WP. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:39, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • B, oppose D, E, F and G: I reiterate one of the points made in the original discussion that I took part in back in 2015, the swastika as depicted in this instance (clockwise thick black lines, 45 degree tilt) is a symbol of Nazism as a whole. The use of the NSDAP flag or the flag of the Third Reich immediately restricts us to German Nazism. Yes, the German form is the most commonly known, but it was not the only form as shown in the list of historical movements and parties abroad of Germany. See my comment below for more clarification. – Nick Mitchell 98 talk 11:07, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
  • C Honour the previous RfC. What's changed? The swastika in this form is a recognised symbol of Nazism. This is an article about Nazism. Why try to water it down? --Pete (talk) 20:30, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't say anyone is trying to "water it down", but rather to find a balance between presenting what you rightfully call the recognized symbol of Nazism, and the response that many people have to a symbol they find deeply offensive for personal, philosophical, historical and moral reasons. Also, in defense of those who !voted for removal, the word itself, "Nazism" is quite clear and unambiguous, so whether there needs to be a symbol at all could be considered simply a matter of design, and not necessarily of content. If so, the question becomes does such a consideration - visual design - worth the offense ceated by the symbol? I think you can argue both sides of that question, but that it's not nearly as straight-forward and clear-cut as you present. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
  • This is an encyclopedia we are building and it is going to have some things people (including myself) find offensive; but, that does not mean said things should not be included in some way, all things considered; otherwise, it becomes a slippery slope of inclusion and exclusion and we are to present things in WP:NPOV, whether we personally like something or not. Kierzek (talk) 21:01, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
  • C per Pete above. Further we are about Truth, not feelings. The size should be identical to other symbols' sizes. NPOV requires that we do not discriminate against something because it is offensive.--Iloilo Wanderer (talk) 04:25, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Actually, WP:NPOV says absolutely nothing to that effect; and we are not about "Truth" (especially with a capital "T"), we are about verifiability - which has absolutely nothing to do with this, since there's no more or less "truth" in a big swastika compared to a small swastika. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:19, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Threaded discussion (2, take 2)

@Beyond My Ken: Nice job on the restart. Please re-read my comment at 22:33, 13 March 2017 (UTC) in the just-closed RfC. Do you disagree that the Party flag is a better choice than the Reich flag? IMO the latter needn't be on the table (and who needs 3 more options anyway?). ―Mandruss ☎ 05:57, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

To be honest, I didn't see any difference between the NSDAP flag and the Reich flag, and I just assumed that everyone was offering up the smae flag as the flag option. I absolutely missed your comment on the party flag centering the symbol on the flag -- sorry about that. Is that simply an artifact of our image, or was that actually the case?
In any event, here's what I suggest we do: proceed with this RfC as it's currently set up, and then if the Reich flag is the preferred option, we can discuss (hopefully without needing an RfC) which of the two flags is the better option. How does that seem to you? Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:35, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
BTW, intellectually, the party flag makes more sense considering the subject of the sidebar.Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:37, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
@Beyond My Ken: Is that simply an artifact of our image, or was that actually the case? I know nothing, but the caption at Nazism#Etymology reads: "Flag of the Nazi Party, similar but not identical to the national flag of Nazi Germany (1933–45)." As I can see no difference besides the centering, I assumed that the centering was the difference referred to in the caption, implying that it is not accidental. BTW, intellectually, the party flag makes more sense considering the subject of the sidebar. I agree, that's why I suggested using it instead of the Reich flag. Do you think a significant number of editors will care about that minor distinction, so we shouldn't make the change now? But I'm easy. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:19, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
@Mandruss: Well, I don't think that would be a problem, but I've been horribly wrong before, which is one reason I'd rather take this conservatively and go step by step. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:23, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
@Beyond My Ken: Ok. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:26, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
The centering was the difference and I agree the NSDAP flag should be used over the national flag. Kierzek (talk) 12:09, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
OK, I've had a think, and given the obvious preference for the centered NSDAP flag, I'm making the change. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

The proposed symbols seem to be inappropriate, the last three in particular. This hybrid infobox, a mixture of ideological and historiographical exposition, should not overlap into Nazi party matter and symbols, for the latter has its own infobox with party flag and all. Consider also its context, when Nazism infobox follows right away its Nazi party sibling, with the resulting plethora of symbols so much loved, I presume, only by a nostalgic, a-critical minority for whose predisposition we should not care much (WP:FRINGE). Moreover the infobox depicts among the main people related to Nazism Houston Stewart Chamberlain, who was already dead in 1927. The infobox lists also other extreme right parties, which had their own symbols. All in all, my advice is to abandon the current absent-minded discussion and to choose to avoid any symbol for there isn't one representing the infobox content wholly and properly. Carlotm (talk) 03:15, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

I think you are confusing Nazism, which is the ideology and practice associated with the 20th-century German Nazi Party, with Neo-Nazism, which consists of post-World War II social or political movements seeking to revive the far-right-wing tenets of Nazism. Given that the German Nazi Party created Nazism, it is wholly appropriate to use the Flag of the Nazi Party in relation to Nazism. --Nug (talk) 08:06, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
You could make a similar argument against the symbols used in many, if not all, of the ideology sidebars. Therefore, it is not a reason to remove the image from this one individually, but rather something that should be addressed by a larger proposal at the proper venue if desired.— Godsy (TALKCONT) 18:20, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Carlotm, the current swastika shown in the infobox is a symbol of Nazism as a whole, the NSDAP and Third Reich flags only relate to German Nazism, which was not the only form of the ideology as shown in the list of historical parties and movements outside of Germany.
Also, the current size of the swastika is consistent with other ideological emblems in sidebars (Communism, Fascism, etc.). – Nick Mitchell 98 talk 11:07, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
The physical size is only a small part of the issue. Glancing at the current {{Nazism sidebar}} (option B) and comparing it with {{Communism sidebar}} shows that the icon in the former is very much more prominent. The large and heavy swastika is too in-your-face purely in a typographical sense and without reference to its cultural background. Johnuniq (talk) 02:13, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Houston Stewart Chamberlain

Editor Robinson98354‎ removed Houston Stewart Chamberlain from the list of "People" in the template, on the grounds that he wasn't a Nazi. I think an argument could be made that the list of "People" is not necessarily a list of Nazis, but a list of people associated with or important to the Nazi movement. Still, I do take Robinson98354‎'s point, so I did not restore Chamberlain to the "People" list.

Chamberlain was, however, a strong influence on the Nazi ideology, so I added him to the "Ideology" list, an edit which Robinson98354‎ reverted with the same comment, that Chamberlain was not a Nazi. In this case, though, I think he is dead wrong. Since Chamberlain was a significant influence on the Nazi ideology, his inclusion on the "Ideology" list is completely justified, and should not be removed.

Here's what a number of sources have to say about Chamberlain's influence on the Nazis and the connection between them:

Kershaw Hubris:

  • "[Concerning] race theory ... Hitler drew heavily for his ideas from well-known antisemitic tracts such as those of Houston Stewart Chamberlain" (p.151)
  • "[A]t the end of September 1923, Hitler had met Wagner's son-in-law, the now aged racist writer Houston Stewart Chamberlain, who subsequently wrote Hitler an effusive letter, saying that he had 'transformed the condition of his soul at one fell swoop', and 'that Germany should have brought forth a Hitler in the time of his greatest need' was proof of its continuing vitality as a nation." (p.660 n.166)

Shire The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

  • "[I]t was on the Third Reich, which did not arrive until six years after his death but whose coming he foresaw, that [Chamberlain's] influence was the greatest. His racial theories and his burning sense of the destiny of the Germans and Germany were taken over by the Nazis, who acclaimed him as one of their prophets. During the Hitler regime books, pamphlets and articles poured from the presses extolling the "spiritual founder" of National Socialist Germany. Rosenberg, as one of Hitler's mentors, often tried to impart his enthusiam for the English philosopher to the Fuehrer. It is likely that Hitler first learned of Chamberlain's writings before he left Vienna, for they were popular among the Pan-German and anti-Semitic groups whose literature he devoured so avidly in those early days. Probably too he read some of Chamberlain's chauvinistic articles during the war. In Mein Kampf he expresses regret that Chamberlain's observations were not more heeded during the Second Reich." (pp.108-109)
  • "Chamberlain became a member of the budding Nazi Party [!] and so far as his health would permit began to write for its obscure publications. ... This remarkable Englishman's seventieth birthday, on September 5, 1925, was celebrated with five columns of encomiums in the Nazi Voelkischer Beobachter, which hailed his Foundations as the 'gospel of the Nazi movement' ..." (p.109)

Reuth Goebbels

  • "After meeting Chamberlain in Bayreuth, twenty-six-year-old Goebbels wrote euphorically in his diary that Chamberlain was the 'pathbreaker,' 'the preparer of the way,' the 'father of our spirit.' (p.53)


I could check more sources, but this should be more than sufficient to show that Chamberlain belongs in the "Ideology list, and perhaps should even be restored to the "People" list, as he was, it turns out, a member of the party. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: this make sense. As an aside, the editor in question was (most likely) a sock for a banned user. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:07, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
@K.e.coffman: Yes, I considered that possibility. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

The stupid emblem change

Lets use this, and make it really small too. Just so we're sure everybody knows we're against Nazism. Nazism. is. bad. :D
What do we use as a symbol of Communism? A red star and the hammer-and-sickle, naturally! Not a comically small flag - a symbol, an emblem.

The recent change to the image was stupid. I reverted it because its stupid :). It objectively looks bad, and it objectively makes no sense.

  • The image is ridiculously small. You realize different people use different resolutions, right?
  • That's the flag of the National Socialist GERMAN Workers' Party. There's other Nazis, both historically and right now.
  • Its (a representation of) a flag, not an emblem, so in terms of basic semiotics its usage as such is wrong.

Arguments against the previous image are stupid. That's not any old swastika - that's a NAZI swastika. Black, facing left, rotated 90 degrees (spinning). In the English-speaking world it is THE widely-recognized symbol of Nazism, on its own without any accouterments. That's all that matters with regard to its propriety.

Please folks... leave this messed-up issue alone. Don't virtue-signal by making the image stupidly small, or demonstrate pan-cultural ubersensitivity by talking how the swastika has different meanings... The Nazis used it (and not just in their flag!) - its representative of their ideology as well as other things. -- Director (talk) 13:48, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Bloody swastika for the bloody Nazis, standard 100px width. Don't over-analyze, don't write essays, don't cast votes. It. is. ridiculous.
(I feel really bad for starting this all those years back...) -- Director (talk) 14:12, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
That's your opinion. The change represents the consensus opinion of a number of editors as determined by an RfC. That's how Wikipedia works. Please do not change it again. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:15, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
The choice of image is blatantly idiotic. That's an objective fact, not opinion. And don't patronize me, I know how Wikipedia works - its not by voting. There can be no valid argumentation for a tiny little German flag (used 1933-35) to represent Nazism as an ideology. Might as well use a tiny Soviet Union flag as the symbol of Communism. Does anyone here know anything about basic semiotics? -- Director (talk) 12:39, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

RfC: Should we keep the small flag as the template image?

Withdrawn by OP. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:25, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposing we restore the previous consensus symbol (the 90 or 100px swastika). Or a framed swastika symbol:

26B

I call them Option 26a and Option 37-9. I don't like the current tiny icon:

  • Firstly, its a flag representation. In terms of simple semiotics, we should use an emblem in this context if possible.
  • Secondly, its ridiculously small. I myself can just barely make it out on my work computer. (Maybe I'm getting old, but even if so lets not be ageist on our project ;))
  • Thirdly, that was the flag of Germany between 1933-35. It represents a country first and foremost.
  • Ignoring that, its also a flag of the German Nazi Party. There's plenty other Nazi fistmagnets, both historically and right now.

I started messing around with the image here in ages past, and I'm really sorry for that. I think we should just stop and leave it be. I don't understand what arguments prompted folks to just slap the German flag onto there, but I can't express how weird I find the current state of affairs. Thanks for your time, and again, apologies for opening this up... but this little tiny flag thing just looks terrible to me, as well as objectively inappropriate. -- Director (talk) 13:15, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Survey, May 2017

Its.. not an "icon". Its the ex-German flag. -- Director (talk) 13:51, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Please do not take the first step into WP:BLUDGEONing by answering every "Oppose" vote; you know exactly what I mean by the use of "icon": the image at the top of the template. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:53, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Not a native English speaker, I apologize. -- Director (talk) 13:56, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Well no, no it didn't.. its vice versa :). *bludgeoning intensifies*
I see your point, though, but I think you're missing mine: it did start in Germany, but then so did Communism. My point is that we should use a more universal symbol than a very specific historical flag. Also that we shouldn't use a flag as such either. Also that its too small... Sigh.. -- Director (talk) 22:29, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Support a size increase and either image. The current image is quite a bit smaller than images used in other Category:Political ideology templates sidebars, and I've yet to read a compelling reason why it should be. The swastika is the main symbol of Nazism, and the one on the flag is simply too small a portion of the image. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 22:51, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose A large and well-attended RfC has recently closed and it is a disruptive waste of community time to attempt a re-run, particularly one starting with "I don't like the current tiny icon". Johnuniq (talk) 01:58, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Procedural oppose -- an RfC on this topic just closed; suggest revisiting in about 6 months if there are still concerns at that time. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:14, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
I didn't see it! I come back in a month or so, riding along, when suddenly - [1].
Come to think of it.. could it have been deliberate? Or at least an oversight? Shouldn't participants in the previous consensus have been notified? I mean.. I'm the guy that introduced the previous icon. In principle, this is no way to build a lasting consensus. -- Director (talk) 11:02, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
There is no requirement to notify participants of past RfCs -- and you have no special status because you first brought up the subject of changing the icon -- but you were not deliberately excluded, so please AGF about that. 15 editors managed to find their way to the latest RfC, as opposed to 10 in the first RfC. If you were editing, and had the template on your watchlist, you should have checked in to see what the activity was all about. Please don't make this personal: I initiated the last RfC, and I don't have any animosity toward you, I assure you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:30, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
You will not fool me, I have reported you for failure to notify. To the police (for attempted fraud). Consider yourself my personal enemy - and watch it - I do have Special Status. -- Director (talk) 20:53, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Nothing "personal", man! :) And I didn't mean to imply its "required" (technically nothing is). But, as I said, it is kind of a useful (and courteous) thing to do if you want to build a lasting consensus. You get input from users you know are interested.. Dunno. And this icon just stinks. I mean really, really stinks. -- Director (talk) 21:02, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
I think you should look at the previous RfC a little more closely, and then extrapolate what the close would have been had you been specially notified and !voted in it. Looking at the !votes, I don't think yours would have made a difference at all, because it really wasn't all that tight. Sorry, but them's the facts. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:58, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose - given the reasons were stated and discussed in two recent RFCs; we went through this matter, yet again. It is too soon to re-visit the matter where a consensus was reached. Kierzek (talk) 18:09, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Question -- is the reference to option "37–9" at the top of the RfC supposed to mean the Bible verse:
Psalms 37:9 "For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the Lord will inherit the land"?
K.e.coffman (talk) 23:50, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
I didn't think anybody would get that, bravo!! I was mainly making light of the alphabet of options in the preceding RfC, but that seemed fitting given the subject. Not religious myself (wouldn't want to give the wrong impression), but there was a rather nasty period during the war... -- Director (talk) 00:19, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
It might be advisable to avoid Bible verses; this reminded me of a past ANI discussion: Possible hard-right propaganda on a user page, which resulted in a user's permanent ban. I'd be more careful and less suggestive; pairing a swastika with the verse about "evil" being "destroyed" struck me as rather off. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm an atheist. I vote Social Democrat. Obviously the "evil" are the goddamn Nazis! Fucksake.. what is wrong with people on this talkpage?? Things getting "personal", reported for "legal threats", now this. People, its a stupid image! -- Director (talk) 12:45, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
You ever consider that maybe the problem is "Not a native English speaker", i.e. in your understanding and feeling of the idioms of English, and not in the people who are responding to your messages? Humor is hard in any medium, and even harder in a text-only medium with no other cues to help out. Add to that a perhaps incomplete feel for the idiom, and you've got a recipe for misunderstanding. My suggestion is that you forgo humor, satire, irony, and being cute, and just say what you mean in blunt direct sentences which are difficult to misunderstand. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:45, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Nah. I'm hilarious, you just don't get it.
My English is actually better than that of most native speakers (it pretty much has to be given my job and where I live). I'm rated C2 (or 8+/CPE). My understanding of English idioms is damn-near complete. I regularly read and discuss scientific literature in English, in fact I rarely ever read anything that's not in English (given the obscurity of my native tongue). I spent rather long periods in the US.. My only problem is I was educated in British English, but culturally inundated with American English, so on the fly my spelling kind of switches between the two. I have a distinct American accent; I've been told I sound like a "New Englander", whatever that means exactly (hopefully not Bostonian).
I was kinda being underhanded above. My response was meant to highlight the reasoning for the RfC ("its a flag!"), more than actually correct you in your terminology. I obviously think the point still stands, but my correction as such was unfounded. So I walked back from it using the "no speaky" excuse. Sorry. That's the kind of mental conditioning 10 years of Wikipedia "discussion" gives you.'
Apparently it also may bring you to subtly threaten sanctions in every other post.. and assume people are praising Nazis with Bible quotes. I didn't really reference any damn Bible quote! What's the first "Option" supposed to be? Verse "26a" xD? Never read the thing! Americans and their Bible obsession.. I blame Protestantism. -- Director (talk) 13:38, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose per prior RfC outcome, only 2 months old.
    Re arguments that the current size is too small (not that that needs to be rehashed here), the current size properly subordinates what is essentially a decorative graphic element to the box title. If this principle is violated elsewhere, I suggest proposals for change there, not here. If those proposals fail, that's ok with me per WP:OSE. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:10, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Withdrawn, the issue is obviously deemed too early to bring up again. I hope to revisit the matter at a later date. I think we're being too formal about a silly template illustration, and that the current state of affairs is just plainly.. not good, from a representational and functional perspective. But I do respect consensus - like I said at the start, sorry for bringing this up so soon. -- Director (talk) 09:55, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Microscopic image

At the topic of the talk can we have a TLDR account of why there is a microscopic image as the icon, for those of us who cannot be bothered to wade through pages and pages of back and forward? Claíomh Solais (talk) 22:36, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Because that was the WP:consensus result of the RfC about what the icon should be, and how big it should be. Wikipedia runs by consensus, so that was the decision. Someone recently tried to re-open the subject, and soon withdrew their suggestion because most editors felt it was too soon to re-examine the question. If you want to re-open it, that's your privilege, but the result is almost certain to be the same, that it's too soon to have another RfC. If you change the size of the image again on your own, you will be editing against consensus, which is more than likely to get you sanctioned by an admin. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:00, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
The current controlling RfC is here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:06, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Classic "design by committee", possibly with a bit of virtue signalling into the mix. If he were alive today, H-dog would point to this template as a prime argument for his Führerprinzip :D. -- Director (talk) 10:24, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

@Director: You need to stop making "jokes" that are not only not funny, but are vaguely insulting of other editors. You've gotten in trouble because of your attitude before, I would think you would not want to do so again. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:12, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
I would suggest letting this dead horse rot for a while and to stop beating it until some time has passed and then Director you can raise the issue again, if need be. It is too soon for another RfC at this time and consensus was reached. Kierzek (talk) 20:40, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
@Kierzek: Of course, I agree.. even more for the fact that this is a template used on numerous articles. That's why I withdrew the RfC, after all. I was voicing my agreement with Claíomh Solais's sentiment.
@Beyond My Ken: If you have a problem with my conduct, I'm sure you know the proper venue. This is not it (not even for "warnings"). If you choose to interpret my light-hearted comment as an "insult", condescending "reprimands" from on high - accompanied by politely-worded threats - may not be the most productive way to respond... I am very well familiar with project policy, and don't believe I require your assistance in conducting myself in accordance with it. -- Director (talk) 12:50, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
No threat (from "on high"?, I'm a rank-and-file editor, just like you), just advice which you're free to ignore. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:56, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
I know you're "rank-and-file", it makes the "advice" appear to me all the more presumptive (given the metaphorical "height" from which you dispense counsel).. not that it matters much either way, since were you an admin you'd ofc be WP:INVOLVED.
I advise you in turn to keep future such warnings and/or advice confined to my talkpage, or to take any perceived violations of project policy straight to the appropriate noticeboard. This is not the place to discuss user conduct, yours or mine. -- Director (talk) 04:07, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
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