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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PFHLai (talk) 02:13, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

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Arne Pedersen

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  • Reviewed: not a self-nom
  • Comment: I found this today and it should have been nominated two days ago, but I hope that's okey

Created by Badmotorfinger (talk). Nominated by Mentoz86 (talk) at 17:26, 28 November 2013 (UTC).

  • I accept this 7-day nomination. No QPQ needed. Article has sufficient character length, but 3 out of 4 sources were published after his death (2 are obituaries). Do you have any other refs that show his notability during his lifetime? Is this a possibility? Yoninah (talk) 10:54, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your review. It's hard to find online quality-sources about footballers that played during that era, and the detailed obituaries are handy when creating articles about former players. The link you found, is actually about an exhibition about Arne Pedersen's life and footballing career at the local museum in Fredrikstad (Maybe I should go visit it). With 40 caps for Norway, Pedersen does pass WP:NFOOTY, but I'll have a look if I can find some more coverage. Mentoz86 (talk) 11:24, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm not going to hold up this nomination, as he does meet the notability guidelines, and it is a solid "start" article. Please feel free to add more refs as you find them, Mentoz86. Foreign-language hook ref verified. Good to go. Yoninah (talk) 23:27, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
  • "Most-winning" is a very vague term that is not defined in the article either, I would like a clearer statement of the meaning, at least in the article. Gatoclass (talk) 13:02, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Under the circumstances, this shouldn't be promoted until Gatoclass's issue is addressed. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:41, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't know if I've got it right, but he is the most-winning player because of his 6 league-titles and 3 cup-titles. The hook could be changed to "that Arne Pedersen won six league-titles and three cup-titles with Fredrikstad, which makes him the most-winning player at the club?" though I like it short. Mentoz86 (talk) 20:31, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
  • BTW the dictionary term is "winningest". Yoninah (talk) 20:39, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I can't see anything like "most winning" or "winningest" in the translated source - I suggest a new hook be proposed. Gatoclass (talk) 14:18, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

The lead of this source, which is used as a citation for the claim, states in the lead that (in Norwegian) "Fredrikstads mestvinnende spiller gjennom tidene er død, 82 år gammel." which translated into English means "Fredrikstad's most-winning player through all times is dead at the age of 82". Though I have proposed an ALT2 below, which leaves out the "most-winning" part. Mentoz86 (talk) 14:56, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
  • ALT2 ... that Norwegian footballer Arne Pedersen won six league-titles and three cup-titles while playing for Fredrikstad?
Is it acceptable to state that an individual player won team trophies? It doesn't sound quite right to me. Gatoclass (talk) 12:04, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Here are a couple of suggestions for ALT hooks to address recently raised issues; they both start the same, but the last clause is different, with the first going with the most winning idea, and the second offering a new fact from the article (and sourced at the end of its sentence):
  • ALT3: ... that Norwegian footballer Arne Pedersen was on winning Fredrikstad squads for six league titles and three cup titles, more than any other player in the team's history?
  • ALT4: ... that Norwegian footballer Arne Pedersen was on winning Fredrikstad squads for six league titles and three cup titles, and in his final match scored the winning goal for the 1966 cup title?
Hope these work; if the word "squads" is not right, please feel free to replace with an appropriate synonym. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:16, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Neither of these hooks can be confirmed from the source for reasons I can't be bothered explaining. I note that Google translate of the source describes him as Fredrikstad's "most successful" rather than "most-winning" so if that was changed in the article we could try a hook like:
  • ALT5: ... that Arne Pedersen was the most successful player in Fredrikstad FK history, playing in six of the club's league and three of its cup titles? Gatoclass (talk) 07:33, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Note however that the source says he won these titles for "rodbuksense" not Fredrikstad, which is apparently a nickname for the club, but that would probably have to be sourced in the article as well. Gatoclass (talk) 07:33, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your input, both of you. You are correct, Gatoclass, "Rødbuksene" is a nickname for Fredrikstad FK, but should I source that in the article about Arne Pedersen? I do however believe that it is acceptable to state that an individual player wins team trophies, but as English is not my native language I'll ask User:Struway2 about it, an editor who have good knowledge of football, DYK and the English language. "Most successful" is probably a better phrase than "most-winning", I hate when Google translate does a better translation than me, but I'd prefer if we leave out the second part of the sentance in the ALT5, so that the readers would have to click into the article to find out what makes him the most successful player:
  • Comment on English usage in context of football, as requested, with the disclaimer that I'm a native speaker of British English... I much prefer "most successful" to any variations on most-winning. I've never seen "winningest" used other than by US publications in relation to US sports, and I don't think "most winning" works in either dialect. So if "most successful" is an acceptable translation of the Norwegian word, I'd go with that.

    You can and do say that a player won a team title or competition, but you'd say just cups, or "Norwegian Cups", or "domestic cups", rather than "cup titles": see e.g. [1], [2], [3]. I think it's clear from the context that "rødbuksene" refers to Frederikstad FK and is being used for a bit of variety in the prose of the source. If this were my review, I'd support changing the wording in the article from "most winning" to "most successful", and go with ALT6 or, if reviewers feel they need the detail, something like the below ALT7 (a variation on ALT5). Hope this helps, cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:24, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

  • ALT7: ... that Arne Pedersen, the most successful player in Fredrikstad FK history, won six league titles and three cups with the club?
Thank you for your input Struway, it's much appreciated. "Most successful" is an acceptable translation of the Norwegian word, so I've changed it in the article. I now hope that either ALT6 or ALT7 can be accepted. Mentoz86 (talk) 19:21, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
  • As Mentoz has confirmed the Norwegian translation of "most successful player", and all other criteria are in place per my review above, it's time to move this hook to the main page. I prefer ALT6 because it's short and catchy, but I leave it to the administrator to decide between ALTs 6 and 7. Foreign-language hook ref AGF. Hook cited inline. Good to go. Yoninah (talk) 23:34, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
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