Talk:Zombie Land Saga/Archive 1

Archive 1

Lily Hoshikawa's gender

Lily was born as a boy named Masao, and he liked to pretend as a girl. His cause of death was mental shock upon growing facial hair. Upon resurrection as a zombie, Masao changed his name to Lily, and is now a girl. Lily was male, and is now female. Simple as that. Sk8erPrince (talk) 06:16, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Lily was a child actress who was put under a massive amount of stress from both being overworked and suffering from gender dysphoria; starting male puberty caused her a great amount of distress, and her finding the the facial hair was what brought everything to a head, and thus the stress of it all killed her outright. She was born with a male body, but she lived as a girl, went by a feminine stage name, and did not want to become a man so intensely that it triggered her death. As a zombie, she even rejected her old masculine name. Therefore, by definition, Lily is a transgender girl. Muraenabeta (talk) 15:02, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

That just sounds like a boy that hates being a boy. Don't know why you're all so persistent in defining Lily as transgender when it's not confirmed by the author. Wikipedia doesn't include anything that has no verifiability. Besides, it's already been noted that Lily was a boy before being resurrected as a zombie girl. That's more than enough. Sk8erPrince (talk) 16:36, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Saying it's "Not confirmed by the author" just means you cant read, friend. It's confirmed by the author because it's in the actual content of the show. WP:V even specifically lists "the work itself" as a reliable source for information regarding the work, in case you're confused on that point. Abzol 22:06, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Why are you so persistent in defining Lily as a cross dressing male when it's not confirmed by the author either? Not sure if it counts as a source - but the English Official page for Zombieland Saga posted this about Lily after the episode being discussed aired. https://twitter.com/SagaZombieLand/status/1066043317274652672 I will admit that its not very concrete compared to a statement from the author however and I understand if you think its a bit of a reach. I also have mentioned multiple times that Lily referred to Masao as an "Old Name". A name she no longer uses because she now identifies as female - transgender. You can argue that this is a POV - but that argument also applies to what you are saying about her being a cross dresser. Unless if you show a source from a creator of Zombieland Saga that implies that she is in fact a cross dresser - then you're just as guilty of pushing your POV as everyone else on this page is. A possible compromise would be just to remove all mentions of her being a cross dresser from the page - but no mention of her being transgender either - at least until there is concrete information to prove either side.

GreenteaKitkat2000 (talk) 16:59, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Removed all mentions of transgender and crossdressing per request. This sounds reasonable enough. Sk8erPrince (talk) 17:18, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2018

Please change "Born as a boy named Masao Go, Lily was a prodigious crossdressing child actor before he died from mental shock upon growing facial hair. Later on, Lily was resurrected as a female zombie by Kotaro. Lily has no qualms about her new lifestyle as a zombie, seeing it as a way to continue being a child forever." to something along the lines of "Assigned male at birth with the name Masao Go, Lily was a prodigious transgender child actor before she died from mental shock upon growing facial hair. Later on, Lily was resurrected as a zombie by Kotaro. Lily has no qualms about her new lifestyle as a zombie, seeing it as a way to continue being a child forever." The newest episode pretty clearly showed her as being transgender. With her referring to Masao Go as an "Old Name" as a real transgender person might with their dead name. She also corrects people whenever they refer to her as "Masao" and also says "Lily will always be Lily" - showing that she identifies as female. Sources for this is episode 8 of Zombie land Saga GreenteaKitkat2000 (talk) 12:30, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Declined: Transgender does not apply to zombies. Furthermore, the current revision perfectly sums up Lily's past life as a boy - Lily, as Masao, was clearly and evidently a crossdresser, because she was a he. Please do not post similar requests. Additionally, no reliable source cites Lily as a transgender, so trying to integrate that element into the article forcefully is WP:OR. It would be a violation of policy. Sk8erPrince (talk) 13:50, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

You can push your POV as much as you want, but at the end of the day, it's still WP:OR, so don't even bother. Sk8erPrince (talk) 14:39, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2018

Change "Lily was a prodigious crossdressing child actor before he died from mental shock" to "Lily was a prodigious child actor before she died from mental shock" That wannabe cat (talk) 14:46, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Declined: Lily was a crossdresser before she was resurrected as a female zombie. No matter how many edit requests you make, I'll keep declining them because you have failed to state a valid rationale as to why I should accept your request. Sk8erPrince (talk) 15:56, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Calling Lily a crossdresser when she was alive is just as much of a viewer interpretation as referring to her as trans. The latter has considerably more to support it, however. Additionally, the argument that "transgenderism doesn't apply to zombies" is errant nonsense. Why not? The zombies in this show are clearly just as sentient as when they were living human beings. Calling one interpretation WP:OR but not the other reeks of editor bias. --77.161.126.44 (talk) 16:00, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

A male that pretends to be female is a crossdresser; that's a fact, not WP:OR. That's exactly what Lily did when she was a he. Transgenderism, however, is an entirely different concept that requires reliable sources to support it. You should look up Wikipedia policies before you start accusing other editors of "editorial bias". Sk8erPrince (talk) 16:13, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Give it a rest and accept the fact that if you don't have any reliable sources, your edit requests will not be approved. Sk8erPrince (talk) 16:13, 24 November 2018 (UTC)}}

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2018

The following is slightly incorrect about the cause of Lily's death and worded with bias: "Born as a boy named Masao Go, Lily was a prodigious crossdressing child actor before he died from mental shock upon growing facial hair. Later on, Lily was resurrected as a female zombie by Kotaro." Suggested change to more neutral language and correction to cause of death: "Born Masao Go and going by the stage name of Lily Hoshikawa, Lily was a prodigious child actor who died of overwork. Not desiring to go through puberty, her death was triggered by the shock of discovering that she was starting to grow facial hair." Muraenabeta (talk) 16:39, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Declined: So did Lily die from overworking or mental shock? You listed two causes of death. That's contradictory. And why are you so insistent in getting rid of any mention that Lily was a boy? She was a boy, and that's a fact. I fail to see how this is a better revision than the current one. Sk8erPrince (talk) 16:46, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

That is not a fact; see MOS:GENDERID. Going by your use of “transgenderism” above, I do not believe you understand this topic enough to be handling this with the finality that you are. Bobtheadventurer (talk) 22:19, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. See GLAAD's definition "This is not a term commonly used by transgender people. This is a term used by anti-transgender activists to dehumanize transgender people and reduce who they are to "a condition." Instances of this term, as well as denialism of Lily being transgender throughout this talk page perpetuate derogatory assumptions and only exist in bad faith. NickPenrhyn (talk) 22:54, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

It is more neutral. Some regard Lily as a boy, some regard Lily as a girl, and some fall somewhere in-between; there being two sides, Wikipedia should not favor one or the other, as dictated by policy. As for how the facial hair discovery and the overwork death add together, the former is what triggered the event of her dying, while the latter is what allowed it to be fatal. I will suggest two alternatives, as I erroneously suggested an edit that was biased by using the feminine pronoun. First: "Born Masao Go and going by the stage name of Lily Hoshikawa, Lily was a prodigious child actor who died of overwork. The death was triggered when Lily, not desiring to go through puberty, discovered the growth of a new facial hair." Second: "Born Masao Go and going by the stage name of Lily Hoshikawa, Lily was a prodigious child actor who died of overwork." Muraenabeta (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Done. I trimmed the revision a bit, and removed all mentions of transgender and crossdressing. Sk8erPrince (talk) 17:16, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Probably the best choice of action for now since dressing up as woman or even prentendimg to be one does not necesssrly make a person transsexual since we don’t have any direct confirmation that the character felt that their gender identity was different than their assigned sex. What we would need to use that term is either an explicit confirmation from the work or the people in charge of the show.--67.68.28.220 (talk) 19:12, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

News org referring to Lily as trans in case the spoken dialog wasn't enough. Not referring to Lily as trans is willful denial of the the facts, according to the company's official english Twitter NickPenrhyn (talk) 22:06, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

She was also show with Transgender pride colors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.117.192.62 (talk) 22:50, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Comment: Tagging User:Juhachi for input; I've seen how he handled a similar mess with Wandering Son (a work that revolves almost entirely on individuals with gender dysphoria) before, so he might be more suited to talk about this. I'd much rather not deal with all this POV pushing if y'all can't differentiate what is WP:OR and what is a reliable source. Sk8erPrince (talk) 06:24, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Sk8erPrince, I would seek to remind you that declining successive edit requests has a chilling effect on new user's access to external review, and while there is some dispute over the existence of a explicit reliable source, it is disruptive to roadblock discussion in this manner. All plot summaries are implicitly referenced to the work itself, to some extent rely on editors ability to gain reasonable insight from that work. Several users have expressed concerns that trans-erasure is occurring, which is a concern recognised by our Manual of Style and they have provided both a primary source (though implicit) and a secondary source (though perhaps on the lower end of reliability). This in turn with the general necessity for plot summaries to require some interpretation creates a argument worth community discussion. TheDragonFire (talk) 13:09, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough, but I'm signing out of this discussion entirely. Juhachi (whom I've tagged above) is probably more suited to discuss in this topic than me. Sk8erPrince (talk) 13:13, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Unless there's actual proof from the staff of the anime, a journalism source claiming a character is X label is just headcanon and should be removed from the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.154.95 (talk) 15:10, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

I did a check of Japanese sources and I could not find any Japanese source outright use the term "transgender" for Lily. This article calls her an otokonoko (which is something entirely different) as does the Japanese Wikipedia. lullabying (talk) 17:29, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

That is due to values dissonance from writers who don't know the difference between a crossdresser and a transgender woman. It seems that even in Japan, Lily's gender identity is a matter of debate since the Japanese Wikipedia article is locked.173.186.194.22 (talk) 17:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Lily is recently described as a boy by the producers in a magazine feature in Animage. So, which statement should we go by? lullabying (talk) 22:28, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

That is troubling in a way. How about not a statement that caters to transphobes.173.187.86.60 (talk) 16:43, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

So basically you guys don't care at all when official sources label something the way it's supposed to be, because it goes against the headcanon that you made yourself. If the producers says it's a boy, it's a boy, that's all there is to it. Wether it caters to "transphobes" doesn't matter because it wasn't a trans issue in the first place, you inserted it in yourselves. It's a wiki page of the show anyway, there's no reason to put the information that Lily's a boy in anyway since that reveal happens much later in the show. 176.170.231.50 (talk) 14:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I got no qualms whatsowever in keeping Lily's pronouns as feminine; that's the way it is on the japanese wikipedia page. However the addition of transgender stuff is sourced from absolutely nowhere except sensational tabloids and made-up fan theories. Producers & magazines market him as Otokonoko (classic way of refering to crossdressing boys). For the sake of not spoiling, it's fine if everything refering to Lily is female; it's why i don't aim to change it to masculine pronouns or anything in the first place. Bridget-chan (talk) 14:23, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Bridget-chan, Lily is a transgender girl. Lily showed a case of gender dysphoria when she reacted badly to having facial hair and her father deadnamed her. You're just being a jerk. 71.31.232.233 (talk) 17:13, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

This scene is too ambiguous to be considered proof of anything. The context behind it lays in both overwork and aging. Lily never had any issues with his gender and neither did his dad, however he liked the way his dad was amazed at female stars on TV and wanted to reflect that himself. It's further expanded on with the episode with Light, where the problem of aging is even more on focus. I couldn't care any less if you think i'm a jerk, i'm not responsible for whatever ideas people form in their heads, i only care about official, cemented stuff. There hasn't been any mentions of the character being transgender (or even crossdressing, for that matter, even though i'm more of the opinion he is a crossdresser) - hence why i propose we just keep it to female pronouns and don't expend further. The Zombiesaga wikia did this mistake and it just went off-the-wall with sightings with zero source and complete headcanon crap. I'm proposing a compromise here, if i wanted to be a jerk i'd just switch everything to "him" and refer to him as a crossdresser. But there is no proof of that last thing either so the best middle ground is to trim it to the root of it - the way the character is presented as, nothing more, nothing less. Bridget-chan (talk) 17:23, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry that I used the word jerk to describe you. I should've used the word bigot. Here's official articles about Lily's gender identity. I'm done with you and traps are not real. It's just a transphobic term. She's not pretending to be a girl; she is a girl. Lily is Lily. Take your garbage elsewhere.71.31.232.233 (talk) 21:40, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

"official articles" > "dailydot", "animenewsnetwork" - please tell me it's a joke because at the very least i can tell you that it's unfunny and not just call you stupid. Those are not sources, those are tabloids. I don't give a damn about your position on traps, they have nothing to do with trans people. Don't insert yourselves into this and then whine when you get called out. And the irony of saying "take your garbage elsewhere" at the same time as spitting 4 american tabloids as "source" for a japanese show is just hilarious. Hey guess what, have a real source that says he's a boy - - oh what's that? a tabloid? oh wait how about that - . TLDR - none of these (including, and especially yours) are official sources of any kind. I'm being awfully considerate already by trying to find a compromise instead of going balls-to-walls "it's a boy deal with it"; a courtesy that i don't see being returned by a weirdo with tunnel vision like you. Call me a bigot, i don't give a damn, i stick by what the material says, not western politics. - Small edit, actually, the second link isn't just a tabloid, it's a straight-up interview with the producers of the series who constantly refer to Lily as Masao and make a big point to the fact that he is a boy - (they do keep using Lily and female pronouns for the rest of the time, as expected, because it's his identity as a zombie idol.) Bridget-chan (talk) 00:10, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

References

Protected edit request on 26 November 2018

Remove {{pp-semi}} and add {{pp-dispute}}

Thank you! Breawycker (talk to me!) 01:16, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

 Done I went ahead and changed this since the protection was lowered back to semi-protection. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 10:25, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Potential GA

I'd like to reveal that I'm interested in nominating Zombie Land Saga as a WP:Good article, but due to the renewal of the show, I'll hold that off until that season ends. ミラP 02:02, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

It is in dire need of more reception and production information before a nomination, something to keep in mind.--Alexandra IDV^talk 03:12, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

@Alexandra IDV: Thanks. I need to search news media for both of them, English and Japanese included. ミラP 20:33, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Fancruft

Do we really need fancruft about the actor/actress personal lives?14:21, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 20 May 2021

In the hatnote, change "for 2009 film" to "for the 2009 film" because this is grammatically correct. Link20XX (talk) 14:37, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 20 May 2021

Change

| episodes        = 6

to

| episodes        = 7

Change

{{Episode list
| EpisodeNumber       = 7
| Title               = Mai Mai Revolution SAGA
| TranslitTitle       = Mai Mai Reboryūshon SAGA
| NativeTitle         = マイマイレボリューション SAGA
| NativeTitleLangCode = ja
| DirectedBy          = 
| WrittenBy           = 
| OriginalAirDate     = {{Start date|2021|5|20}}
| ShortSummary        = 
}}
}}

to

{{Episode list
| EpisodeNumber       = 7
| Title               = Maimai Revolution SAGA
| TranslitTitle       = Maimai Reboryūshon SAGA
| NativeTitle         = マイマイレボリューション SAGA
| NativeTitleLangCode = ja
| DirectedBy          = Yasutomo Okamoto
| WrittenBy           = Shigeru Murakoshi
| OriginalAirDate     = {{Start date|2021|5|20}}
| ShortSummary        = 
}}
{{Episode list
| EpisodeNumber       = 8
| Title               = The Saga Incident, Part One
| TranslitTitle       = Saga Jihen Sono Ichi
| NativeTitle         = 佐賀事変 其ノ壱
| NativeTitleLangCode = ja
| DirectedBy          = 
| WrittenBy           = 
| OriginalAirDate     = {{Start date|2021|5|27}}
| ShortSummary        = 
}}
}}

2A04:CEC0:10AE:54D9:163C:D33D:90D2:9A62 (talk) 16:03, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Page is unprotected now, so I added it. Link20XX (talk) 15:56, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 20 May 2021

Summary of episode 7 of Zombie Land Saga Revenge under #Episodes (word count: 197):

Maimai Yuzuriha, a high school student and fan of Franchouchou, seemingly dies when she accidentally wanders into the men's public bathhouse and slips on a bar of soap dropped by Kotaro. When she awakens after Kotaro brings her to the mansion to be resurrected, she is revealed to have simply been unconscious, and discovers the girls' undead status. Unfazed by her discovery and determined to emulate their success as idols, Maimai convinces Kotaro to let her join Franchouchou so she can help keep their secret. The group quickly grows to accept Maimai despite her inexperience, and eventually agree to her suggestion of performing at her school's [[Cultural festival (Japan)|cultural festival]], where they plan to officially unveil her as their eighth member. During the preparations, Maimai learns about Sakura's life from when she was alive and realizes that everyone in Franchouchou sees the group as a second chance at life due to their untimely deaths. Concluding that she does not belong in Franchouchou, Maimai announces her graduation from the group immediately after her first performance with them so she can live her own life to the fullest. Meanwhile, Okoba has determined the identities of everyone in Franchouchou except for Yugiri.

User:SubZeroSilver (talk) 18:57, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Page is unprotected now, so I added it. Link20XX (talk) 15:57, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Suggesting a split of the episodes to a new article.

As of now, the episode list is becoming too large as we continue to progress further with each new episode of Revenge. While I think the summaries are good enough to warrant staying, I suggest splitting in the article with Zombie Land Saga focusing on a short premise, character, production, and reception, and List of Zombie Land Saga episodes focusing on the episodes themselves. -- PanchamBro (talk • contributions) 19:45, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 20 May 2021 (2)

Restore sourced content: http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Zombie_Land_Saga&diff=prev&oldid=1022584357 Suzukaze-c (talk) 21:19, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) This is what the edit war was over. Edit requests are only for non-controversial things. For that, please discuss on the talk page above. Link20XX (talk) 22:34, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I would like to request banning Bridget-chan. She does not understand the difference between a cross dresser, drag artist and transgender identity. She thinks Lily being a zombie is a drag persona. How Lily acts as a zombie is how Lily acts as a human. She is not a cross dresser or drag artist; she is a transgender girl. She also thinks being transgender is a western concept. 71.31.232.233 (talk) 02:10, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

She also doesn’t understand what a tabloid means.71.31.232.233 (talk) 02:11, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Seems like Anon doesn't understand what a source is supposed to be. Opinion pieces from westerners dont constitute valuable sources. I don't care how mad it makes you but it's how things are. I'm a crossdresser myself, i know very well the distinctions between those things - not that it matters because i'm not asking for Lily to be refered as such anyway, only that the bare minimum (the way the character is presented initially) stays. And i'm not gonna be so bold (and whiny) as to request a ban on Anon, they can screech all they want. However don't put words into my mouth - Transgenders arent a western concept, however, forcing it on things that arent that is a western (bad) habit, yes. I won't complain if you give reliable sources. Headcanons and opinion pieces from tabloids (yes, they are tabloids) arent that. Best course of actions would be to just get rid of the specifics and just address Lily in the simplest and non-specific terms possible like the other idols. Bridget-chan (talk) 02:50, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

To editor Bridget-chan: The way I see it, the article should absolutely address the fact that she is seen as transgender by third parties based on details within the show itself, provided there is proper sourcing involved. When the article focuses on these sources, that's when she should be addressed as transgender. When the article focuses on the context of the series itself, it should stick to the bare-bones facts presented within the show: that includes Lily being born as Masao Go, and that the growth of facial hair was a contributing factor to her death, while still referring to her as a girl. So long as the first-party and third-party sources take separate approaches to portraying her identity, the article should as well. This is why I propose the sources that were originally used in the "Characters" section be put to use in the "Reception" section with a new subsection on the topic. User:SubZeroSilver (talk) 13:03, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

To editor SubZeroSilver: I guess in "Reception" it would be alright; just not character & episode descriptions, since it's still a matter of debate as far as official material is concerned. It just leads to unnecessary tug-of-war with bias on both sides; being neutral about it would be best. Maybe including some of the contradicting approaches in that section would also help appease both sides (i'm refering to both the LGBT articles and the Producers side) - in short, making an emphasis on the fact that it's really up in the air as far as knowing what exactly is the general consensus on the character, rather than appointing one or the other as fact. Bridget-chan (talk) 13:12, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

To editor Bridget-chan: For the contradictions you speak of on the producers' side, it would need to be a specific mentioned within the source and not a case of synthesis. So long as it's kept to that, I think an agreement can be worked out. User:SubZeroSilver (talk) 13:20, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

To editor SubZeroSilver: As far as the producers and the japanese magazines goes, it's pretty blunt - (probably "disrespectfully" blunt for people that stand on the LGBT interpretation of Lily) so i don't know if it should be taken as such or if it should be sugarcoated a tad. In the links i provided, in the interview mostly, the producers kind of speak of Lily in the same manner they'd do with classical trap characters (not completely accurate but it's something along "Lily's a genius child actress with a surprising real name, who managed to appear on golden time of all channels in her lifetime" - the second article straight up majoritarily refers to Lily as Masao during the entire thing. I guess what can be concluded by that is that there's a difference of interpretation between what is marketed/presented and what is interpreted by the audience (or at least a big chunk of it). I'm not sure how to formulate it in a coherent manner to avoid the cases on the synthesis article though. Maybe someone more experienced at this than me can find a good way of putting it. Bridget-chan (talk) 13:41, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)  Not done: Not an admin, but this clearly looks like something that is not a non-controversial edit, which is the only thing edit requests are for. Link20XX (talk) 16:00, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 20 May 2021 (3)

Requesting Maimai Yuzuriha added to the "Related to Franchouchou" character section of the page:

'''Maimai Yuzuria''' (ユズリハ マイマイ, ''Yuzuriha Maimai'')
Voiced by: [[Kana Hanazawa]] (Japanese)<ref>[https://twitter.com/hanazawa_staff/status/1395408988108324865?s=19 Kana Hanazawa on Twitter.] Retrieved May 21, 2021.</ref>
A high school girl and avid fan of Franchouchou that Kotaro thought he had accidentally killed in a public bath. Though she turned out to be alive, she was still recruited to Franchouchou as "Zombie 7", after learning that the rest of the group were actually undead. She has no problems with the fact that her bandmates were zombies, but announced her graduation towards the end of her debut after learning about Sakura's past, believing that she did not yet deserve to be a member of the group. She promised to keep their identities a secret and continue supporting the band.

VampireKilla (talk) 23:06, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@VampireKilla: :Page is unprotected now, so if you want to add it, go ahead. Link20XX (talk) 15:58, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

"was a boy"

I made a change to the phrasing of the episode 8 plot summary[1], which was then reverted without explanation.[2]

I think it's best to avoid saying Lily "was a boy", for a couple reasons:

1. This kind of phrase is often considered dated or offensive in English. The GLAAD Media Reference Guide, for example, says the phrase "born a man" is best avoided.

2. At least according to this blog post, "Despite her male-coded name, she still presented entirely as a girl with her father’s approval."

WanderingWanda🐮👑 (talk) 18:37, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Lily

Why does Lily’s character section not mention she’s transgender? It also handwaves her death as being just due to “occupational stress,” which is blatantly obviously not the only reason to anyone who has watched the show or read the episode synopsis. We already mention it in page categories and for the synopsis of the episode in which it is revealed, why has there been this roundabout game about saying it? Paragon Deku (talk) 20:17, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

@Paragon Deku: It's all above. Suzukaze-c (talk) 21:45, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Most of the hubbub was 3 years ago with a brief dispute a few months ago. I don’t consider this a compelling reason to end discussion. Paragon Deku (talk) 22:22, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

The page mentioned it until the dispute instigated by an editor above got it removed. Suzukaze-c (talk) 23:56, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

So what we have is a non-consensus caused by the rage of a WP:NOTHERE single purpose account? Paragon Deku (talk) 02:13, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

you could say that, ye 🙃 Suzukaze-c (talk) 23:50, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I added it back in because it’s blatantly canon information corroborated in quite literally several sources, if the single purpose account who edit warred here a few months ago ever posts the creator saying otherwise (a claim I assume they pulled out of their ass) I guess we can remove it. Paragon Deku (talk) 19:35, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

EDIT - I didn't pull it out of my ass, here are the links - Interview , [promo material for Revenge]. Unless there's a literal statement on the producers end, let's keep it neutral to avoid slapfighting Bridget-chan (talk) 13:09, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

No, Lily's trans. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 15:48, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

That's not a source. Reverted. Bridget-chan (talk) 19:45, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

The Japanese episode (Season 1, Episode 8) had Lily refer to Masao as, and I quote, "リリイが捨てた名前". 捨てた名前, or "Suteta Namae," means "abandoned name." Funimation's dub rendered it as "That's what my name used to be." They probably didn't use "deadname" because it be a little on the nose in this context (them being zombies and all). I watched that bit on Crunchyroll just a bit ago. Replayed it a few times too. Something to consider.Crboyer (talk) 05:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

And no, I am not pulling anything out of thin air in this instance.Crboyer (talk) 05:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Reception section needs fleshing out

The reception section here is more detailed than the average such section on most anime articles, but most glaringly absent are any details of the anime's critical reception in reliable sources. When I can I'm going to try to get around to expanding it.

I'd also note that the section on the meme being displayed in UK parliament, while it is a notable event and did become a viral clip on both English and Japanese social media, I don't know that it's suited for the reception section of this page? It doesn't illustrate anything about the anime itself, and there's no context given for its cultural impact or even a connection to a growth in interest for the series or anything like that. If such sources can be found then it could be kept there but as of now I'd say it might be worth considering moving that detail to another article or perhaps creating another subsection of the page. As it stands there's basically no significant connection drawn in reliable sources without risking a violation of WP:SYNTH. I'll try to look into that and if I find any sources worth peeping I'll list them here. ostensibly singular userpage (inquire within) 17:43, 4 September 2022 (UTC)