Talk:Z flag

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The Z flag at Pearl Harbor

The question of exactly which flag or flags were flown prior to the Battle of Pearl Harbor is vexing me.

On the one had, we have very many sources saying the Z flag was flown. However, the ones I see are mostly popular histories or address the question in passing. I don't know if these sources are really researching the matter or just passing on what they read elsewhere and assume to be true. I suspect the latter.

Because John Toland, a respected historian (but a popular historian rather than a scholar) has a very specific story about the Z flag only going up for a brief time and then being taken down.

But Mitsuo Fuchida, who was there, says the Z flag was too. But then, you know... eyewitnesses, wishful thinking, remembering how you think it ought to have been... we all know about that.

And then the article in the Japanese Wikipedia specifically says the D and G flags were used instead of the Z flag, as by 1941 the D and G flags meant what the Z flag had meant in 1905 -- I think (I can't read Japanese and rely here on Google Translate). But there's no ref given. But it is the Japanese Wikipedia and you think they'd know. I have one English ref to this effect, here, but its a very poor ref with no named author and so on.

It may be that the D and G flags replaced the Z in Toland's story. But Toland says "flag" singular. He then goes on to say, much later, that the Z flag was flown at Midway and Leyte. And he's the only source I have for that. (It seems odd that, according to Toland, the Z flag was not flown at Pearl Harbor but was flown at Midway and Leyte. But that's what he says.)

Any assistance in clearing this up would be welcome. Herostratus (talk) 14:03, 25 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a source for you, but FWIW, I'd consider both Toland & Fuchida unreliable (tho they might meet WP standards, IDK...). They've both been caught in mistakes or falsehoods. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 17:38, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps is a case like with USS Missouri (BB-63), where people told tall tales about the flag the battleship flew on 2 September, and there was the presence of admiral Perry's flag on the ship which was not so much flown as it was displayed. TomStar81 (Talk) 20:25, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I find It odd, that its use at Tsushima and Pearl Harbour are mentioned, but not the origin of both of these uses, Nelson's prearranged message at the battle of Trafalgar "Britain expects that every men will do his duty" signalled with the same flag at the start of the battle, thi final signal given from HMS Victory during the action. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.164.253.186 (talk) 17:49, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]