Jump to content

Talk:Yasuke/Archive 8

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 5Archive 6Archive 7Archive 8Archive 9

RfC on Yasuke Samurai Status

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was a trainwreck. It is clear that the RfC question was much too vague, there appearing at least as many interpretations of the question as the number of editors participating. Furthermore, reading this was an absolute pain due to the novellas the regular editors of this article could not stop themselves from hurlling back and forth, leading to the whole discussion totalling 1.4 tomats.

Out of respect for the time of the few innocent editors involved here, I shall anyways try to tease out some results from this discussion.

  1. There exists a consensus to refer to Yasuke as a samurai without qualification. Even several of those !voting yes specified that they supported this.
  2. There exists a consensus against presenting Yasuke's samurai status as the object of debate. No scholarly debate was shown to exist, leading most participants to oppose presenting one, and again, several of those !voting yes did not address this question or agreed with those !voting no. Concerns were raised that the sources presenting Yasuke's status as disputed are so vague about it as to make it impossible to include while complying with NPOV and avoiding weasel words.
  3. There exists a consensus against presenting Yasuke's status as doubtful citing questions about the manuscript's reliability, as this at the present moment would be original research.

The following topics were addressed by some editors during the discussion. Due to the aforementioned problems with the RfC, no consensus was achieved on them.

  1. There exists no consensus on presenting the questions about the manuscript's reliability without drawing conclusions about Yasuke.
  2. There exists no consensus on the extent that nuances in the meaning of samurai status during Yasuke's lifetime versus during later periods should be discussed in the article.
  3. There exists no consensus on the inclusion of the following sentence, or similar, in the lead section of the article. Historians believe this was the equivalent to "the bestowing of warrior or 'samurai' rank" during this period.

Discussion on these topics should continue in a focused manner. Editors are reminded to formulate themselves concisely, and that WP:BLUDGEONING is considered disruptive editing.

-- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 18:22, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Should the article represent Yasuke's samurai status as debated? Brocade River Poems 02:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Should the article represent Yasuke's samurai status as debated?
Yes, there are sufficient sources to demonstrate doubt. No, there are not sufficient sources to demonstrate doubt.
New information has been found and published since the previous RfC, including Thomas Lockley's encyclopedia Britannica article, which demonstrates no clear academic consensus exists on the subject. Brocade River Poems 02:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Survey

  • Yes, Lockley himself has stated there is debate as to whether Yasuke truly became a samurai:

In this era, the boundaries between samurai and other classes were unclear, and there is debate as to whether Yasuke truly became a "samurai," but it is believed that, at least for his lifetime, he was undoubtedly appointed as a vassal of Nobunaga.

See Talk:Yasuke/Archive 4#Lockley's latest work for the Japanese quote and source.
At the time of the finding of this quote there was debate as to the possibility of the debate referring to laymen, with historians actually being in agreement that Yasuke was a samurai. However, Yūichi Goza has since doubted that Yasuke can be certainly referred to as a samurai (although he does not say that he isn't a Samurai):

The only basis for the theory that Yasuke was raised to the rank of samurai is the Sonkeikaku Bunko edition of "The Chronicles of Nobunaga," and we should be cautious in concluding that Yasuke was a "black samurai." (emphasis added)

See Talk:Yasuke/Archive 4#New Japanese source(s) for more discussion of this source.
Edit: Daimon watanabe also says thre are too few sources:

So, was Yasuke a samurai? It is difficult to judge from this information alone. It is questionable whether giving Yasuke a private home, a sword worn at the waist, and a stipend can be used to define him as a samurai.

Based on the little information we have about Yasuke, it seems that Nobunaga took him with him when he went out and enjoyed watching people's surprise, so he seems to have been something like a servant. Nobunaga loved new things and this probably piqued his curiosity.

(see Talk:Yasuke#Watanabe Daimon's article in Yahoo news)
We have one of the main proponent of Ysauke being a samurai saying that there is debate, and two historians saying that we should be cautious in saying that Yasuke was a samurai or that we don't have enough information. These two statements should be enough to change the article to at the very least mention directly that according to some historians there is not enough evidence to definitively state that Yasuke was a samurai. Considering how few historians have published any research on Yasuke, and the fact that most historians have not used the term 'samurai,' the lede should be changed to reflect this uncertainty.
This addresses the main deciding point from the previous RfC:

Rather than furnishing a source that argues or purports to argue that Yasuke was not a samurai, the opposition has maintained that they do not need to prove a negative. However, by NPOV as editors of Wikipedia all an editors job to do is to represent what is written in the Reliable Sources. Since there have been no reliable sources furnished which contest the status of Yasuke as a samurai, it would be a violation of NPOV to depict it as contested.

Since the sources above were not discussed at the time of the RfC (one was not known and the other not yet published), that RfC documents outdated consensus and should be revised in light of new information.
Edit: In terms of the actual language of the article, I agree with Relm that "...though this status is in dispute" is not necessary, at least given the current sources, although that can change and we should mention in the closing of the RfC that if a substantial number of new reliable sources are found that dispute the current form of the article that a new RfC would not be needed to reflect that. The wording used in the current state could be something like "Some historians, such as Yuichi Goza, argue that there is insufficient evidence to conclusively state that Yasuke was a samurai, though they do not categorically reject this possibility either."
Edit 2: to be clear, we don't necessarily need to put this disagreement in the lede. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 03:27, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
  • No. Since the conclusion of the previous RfC[1] (which was recent, I might add) there has been essentially no published reliable sourcing that claims that Yasuke was not a samurai.
All of the above reliable sources refer to him as a samurai. There isn't a single RS that says he wasn't.
Lockley's Britannica article also says "Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians to be the first recorded 'samurai' of foreign birth" while explicitly choosing not to attribute any disagreements to reliable sources.
It would be a violation of WP:NPOV to depict something as contested when it is the majority view in reliable sources.
Since the conclusion of the most recent RfC there has been some new opinions offered, mainly:
  • Yu Hirayama (says that Yasuke was a samurai)
  • Yuichi Goza (does not have an opinion in either direction and concedes that he may have been)
  • Mihoko Oka (says that Yasuke was a samurai)
Yu Hirayama was self-published, but his professional opinion does qualify as a RS per WP:EXPERTSPS. Yuichi Goza's opinion was published in an interview on a website that may not be reliable (Together with its English-language paper Japan Forward, the Sankei Shimbun has been described as having a far-right or right-wing political stance. It has previously published books denying the atrocities committed by the Imperial Japanese Army in World War II. [2]), and Mihoko Oka's opinion is a combination of self-published and published. Notably, Goza never claims that Yasuke wasn't a samurai. He just says he wasn't the type of samurai mythologized in pop culture that was in a bunch of battles and such. Which is something we already knew and wasn't in dispute. Yuichi Goza says "If Nobunaga did make Yasuke a Samurai, it was in the same way that sumo wrestlers were conferred samurai status even though they weren't actually expected to go fight in war." which is him conceding that he may have been.
As such, even among new sources there isn't a single one that claims that Yasuke was not a samurai. The newer sources are not very high quality, and there is not enough of them to depict this as disputed even if they all contended with the claim that he is a samurai, which they do not. If we do include them though the total becomes:
Claims that Yasuke was a samurai
Says it is possible, but not in the way depicted in video games
  • Yuichi Goza
Claims that Yasuke was not a samurai
  • (None)
Per WP:NPOV:

Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view. Views held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as the flat Earth). Giving undue weight to the view of a significant minority or including that of a tiny minority might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject.

WP:FALSEBALANCE is quite relevant here.

While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view, fringe theory, or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity. There are many such beliefs in the world, some popular and some little-known: claims that the Earth is flat, that the Knights Templar possessed the Holy Grail, that the Apollo Moon landings were a hoax, and similar ones. Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or plausible but unaccepted theories should not be legitimized

Symphony Regalia (talk) 03:37, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment. I think as long as the origin of dispute is clearly identified, then it is sufficient. I think currently there is a lack of clarity on whether Lockley was referring to 'some people (historians)' or just 'some people (general populace)' in the Britannica article. I think any dispute should center around the authenticity of the manuscript since this is the only identifiable dispute brought forward by Kaneko and Goza, with Yu and Lockley both affirming that if the manuscript is authentic then Yasuke was some form of a 'samurai' by some unclear definition of the term.
e.g. instead of "...though this status is in dispute." I think it is currently more reflective of the criticisms levied to say that "Historians such as Yu and Lockley have used the Sonkeikaku Bunko version of the Nobunaga Diary to suggest Yasuke met the definition of Samurai for x y and z reasons, though some historians (Goza and Kaneko) have urged caution in regards to accepting the authenticity of the manuscript passage for x y and z reasons."
I think the former would just spiral into more arguments, while the latter is helpful for readers and reflects the current academic discussion that is ongoing. Relm (talk) 06:49, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Long thread of replies moved to the Discussion section.
Yes.
See my other posts for more in-depth reasoning; I've gone back & forth a few times, but I keep seeing (what I interpret as) misleading or tendentious arguments on one side, and no such things on the other.
(E.g.: "We cannot interpret the reliability of evidence ourselves, gotta go by the sources. But this one source, he might be right-wing, uh-oh! And this other one, it's using weasel words, so let's interpret it as unusable." Or: "We can't know what exactly this guy meant, only report exactly what he said, and he was just implied but didn't say outright that Yasuke was not a samurai. This other source says some people dispute Yasuke's samurai status? Hmm, probably means 'some [Internet troll] people', I bet..." Or: "Look at alllll these sources that support the 'yes-he-was' side. ...Some of them are not actually usable, of course, but they pad out the list a bit, so..." Etc, etc .)
Looking at the state-of-play, beyond meta-reasoning about what it means to use arguments like those, it seems fairly clear to me that—while on balance Yasuke probably was a "samurai"—enough legitimate doubt exists amongst experts, either about the claim itself or its original source, to include at least a line or so to that effect in the article.
Cheers, Himaldrmann (talk) 12:06, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
  • No because Yasuke's status as a samurai is not debated outside of this talk page, Reddit, YouTube and the like. We had an RfC on the same issue less than three months ago, and the consensus was that it would be a violation of NPOV to depict [Yasuke's status as a samurai] as contested because there have been no reliable sources furnished which contest [it]. The same is true today - nothing has changed substantially, including the boundless enthusiasm some editors have for debating this topic, even without any RS to support their POV (but note this tweet by a Japanese subject-matter expert: "it's certain that he held the status of a "samurai"). I propose a WP:SNOWBALL closure and a one-year moratorium on the topic, because it has been disruptive for too long. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:24, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
Long thread of replies moved to the Discussion section.
  • No. In order for us to portray it as debated, we would need evidence of a debate in reliable sources. But we don't have that. In fact, we don't have even one single RS that asserts or even suggests that Yasuke was not a samurai. Loki (talk) 19:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
    >we don't have even one single RS that asserts or even suggests that Yasuke was not a samurai
    I don't think the intention of the RfC is to write in the article that anyone says Yasuke was not a samurai. Would you mind reading my comment here and then expand more on your position? J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 20:47, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
    Your comment says that your source doesn't mention Yasuke at all. So I don't know why you think it's relevant. Loki (talk) 00:06, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
    Which comment are you referring to? Perhaps I linked the wrong comment? It seems to be working for me. (starts at "Based on some of the discussion here") J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 02:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
  • No - per UNDUE. There isn't a debate about his status as a samurai. I've read through all the 24,000+ words spilt so far in this RfC, and no compelling argument has been presented to substantiate the unfounded claim of "debated", so therefore we can not definitevely state his status is debated. Yu Hirayama, a historian at the Japan University of Health Sciences who specializes in the Sengoku period, said that Yasuke’s samurai status was not in question. "There are very few historical documents about him, but there’s no doubt that he was a 'samurai' who served Nobunaga". Isaidnoway (talk) 23:34, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
  • No. There's overwhelming academic sourcing calling him a Samurai; and still no serious academic sources dissenting from it. Per WP:ACADEMICBIAS, we don't say "but some people online disagree" when discussing things that academic sources broadly treat as historical fact. Also, I agree that we should have a broad moratorium on any discussions related to whether he's a samurai or not, lasting until at least a few months after Assassin's Creed Shadows has been released; this dispute has consumed entirely too much time and energy and has mostly gone nowhere. --Aquillion (talk) 03:05, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
    Do you mean "moratorium"? Loki (talk) 06:51, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Yes. I will mostly copy the text I had written below in the comments section since it is now relevant due to a recent edit that removed this information while an open RfC is underway. The word "controversial" is a strong word and I think makes out the situation to be a bigger deal than it really is. There is absolutely weight to add the following sentence to the lede after mentioning the sword, stipend, etc...: Historians believe this was the equivalent to "the bestowing of warrior or 'samurai' rank" during this period. (with the reference to Lockley Britannica). This sentence does not reject the idea that he is a samurai. Also, it was previously in the lede several times before being removed by Symphony Regalia here and Aquillion here.
Several historians say Yasuke was a samurai, including the perspective that he was a samurai because of the murky definition of the term during this period and the various tasks assigned to him and the "stipend." Given that Yasuke's status is one of the main things that makes him notable, the aforementioned sentence should be in the lede, because it is a part of his status. It is not WP:FALSEBALANCE to have this sentence in the lede, as the mere presence of this sentence does not contradict those historian's viewpoints and instead supports them. And it is not WP:UNDUE for the lede because the status of Yasuke is one of the main things that make his notable, and this sentence elucidates the notability in an informative, extremely brief fashion apropos of the lede. It is not accessory information, rather it is essential to his status. Various historians use those details to conclude that Yasuke was a samurai. Without the aforementioned sentence present, the article has those details floating in the lede without much purpose. Why are they even there? They seem like minor details that should not be in an article's lede. Obviously, the reason the details are there are to indicate Yasuke is considered a samurai, but readers who aren't involved in this article's edit war are unaware are not going to understand this obvious indication. Lastly, this sentence is critical for giving weight to the more measured persepctives of other historians who don't just say "Yasuke was straight-up a samurai, no questions asked", and who instead say he can be "considered" a samurai, or whatever complex wording they choose to use. This sentence is multi-functional, does a lot of heavy lifty lifting for various persepctives in an extremely brief and fair manner, and should be in the lede.
A concern of mine is that because BrocadeRiverPoems' question at the opening of this RfC (which used the word "controversial" which has strong connotations) may get struck down by some editors, then the outcome of this RfC will be used to heedlessly strike down other similar, but not identical, discussions in the future. Which would be inappropriate. I'm already seeing people warp the outcome of the previous RfC (which did not have "overwhelming" consensus) into shutting down many, many edits concerning Yasuke's status while this current RfC is open. Green Caffeine (talk) 18:09, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Long thread of replies moved to the Discussion section.
  • No - The only dispute is WP:FRINGE. Yes, the dispute exists, but it is not taken seriously by experts, so neither should we take it seriously and give it false or WP:UNDUE WP:WEIGHT. I note there's a lot of badgering and hounding in this RFC... I feel it may have gotten to the point of WP:SEALIONing. Please be careful. Fieari (talk) 05:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Yes. I have my own preferences of how the article should discuss the issue, but in order to be productive I think the article can continue to refer to him as a samurai. However, there should be a short section on how samurai status in the 16th century was not set in stone and refer to those helpful sources that indicate the issue is up for debate, etc. John Smith's (talk) 08:02, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
  • No - Per others citing WP:FRINGE. It seems that these arguments are just running in circles, and up to this point no one can show any source that disclaims the possibility that Yasuke was a samurai, while numerous sources explicitly state that he was. It is telling that people voting have spent considerable time debating the merits of various blog posts and syndicated content on Yahoo News (obviously a big heavy-hitter in history journalism), when it appears that numerous past attempts have found that calling Yasuke a samurai in the article was not made in error. Considering that now there are apparently external message boards targeting this talk page, I think we should consider definitively resolving this soon. Barbarbarty (talk) 00:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
  • No - I'm not quite sure why this is even being brought up again so soon since the previous RFC. Other than Lockley there are just so many other academic sources and publications that even mentioning this dispute would be, as others have mentioned, WP:FALSEBALANCE. While there are sources that are unsure, there appears to be NOT A SINGLE ACADEMIC SOURCE that even has any reliable claim of Yasuke not holding a Samurai or Samurai-adjacent status. Until something along those lines is published and considered reliable, I don't believe there is any merit in creating these RFCs, other than to spread WP:FRINGE theories. We've already come to a similar conclusion three months ago; these are a waste of editors' time. MetropolitanIC (💬|📝) 03:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Replies to Relm's comment

The following thread was originally positioned as a reply to Relm's comment in the Survey section. It has been moved here due to its length.

This seems to be different from the intention of this RfC, so I want to make sure these are handled separately. Attributing opinions concerning a hypothetical about a particular passage is entirely different from depicting Yasuke's samurai status as disputed. Even the people who presented the hypothetical are not making the argument that Yasuke was not a samurai (Goza concedes he may have been), so you would run into WP:OR and WP:SYNTH issues as well.
And neither of them have definitely said that they believe that passage is or isn't authentic. It is probably acceptable to mention it somewhere down in the article body, but I don't think that was the intention of this RfC. In terms of Yasuke's samurai status, Wikipedia's job is to abide by reliable sources, and per the reliable sources it is overwhemingly clear that Yasuke being considered samurai is the overwhelming majority view in them. In the recent RfC on this it was made apparent that not a single source argues that Yasuke was not a samurai, and this is still the case now. As such, it would fall under WP:FALSEBALANCE to depict it as disputed. Depicting a topic as disputed is not the same as attributing an inconclusive opinion about when a particular passage was added, which is probably fine to do so with appropriate weight somewhere (though, it could also be suited for the Shinchō Kōki article). It cannot be used draw conclusions about other things by editors though (otherwise it becomes WP:OR), because they themselves are not disputing it, they themselves are not even sure, and because the experts above have not updated their assessment of Yasuke's samurai. Not all reliable sources that represent Yasuke as a samurai draw their conclusions that from passage in isolation, and even for those that do they might outright disagree. As such, if and only if the plethora of reliable sources update their assessment of Yasuke's samurai status, would said hypothetical become relevant to Yasuke's status. Symphony Regalia (talk) 00:33, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
(please excuse typos or misplaced sentences, if they occur... this is why I shouldn't try to do this on my smartphone, dammit—)
That doesn't quite seem right to me. If a bunch of tertiary or secondary sources rely on the same document, and then a reliable source i.e. an expert e.g. a Japanese historian calls that document into question or suggests it's debatable, it seems reasonable to mention something to this effect—especially if other evidence is very thin on the ground, and especially especially if more than one expert suggests caution.
"Only if the majority of sources explicitly argue that he wasn't" is too strong a standard. That would be a reason to make a definitive statement in the other direction, but this is RfC just suggesting something to the effect that "it's not for sure", no?
(See bullet-pointed bit below on this, also.)
Re: Reliability of Sources, Pt. I (academic & prim./sec./tert.):
I think user Brocade River Poems makes a good point that there is only one—evidently—academic source that makes the claim, and based on the very document about which at least two Japanese historians (right?) have expressed some level of doubt.
It appears the majority of the "pro-samurai" sources adduced (about which, see below) rely upon either no sources; this work (by Lopez-Vera); and/or the document (Nobunaga narrative IIRC) in question.
This is not some overwhelming consensus that it should take a mountain of opposing consensus to overturn, much less "overturn" only to the point of inserting some qualifying clause!
IIRC, you challenged this point by saying "there's no rule about sources of sources needing to be distinct"—but I dunno, man... WP:RAP, right? I don't know enough to know if there is a rule about this, but it is easy to construct absurd scenarios if we refuse to consider B.R.P.'s reasoning!
E.g., imagine:
  • A hundred different news & media outlets put out articles about how new research shows that Alexandre Dumas (père) was actually 100% white, based upon a monograph by, apparently, a little-known academic.
  • Some two or three French literary historians protest that the news organizations got hoaxed by a fake document: the academic is a charlatan.
  • An editor tries to insert a clause to this effect in the lede of the Wiki article about it.
  • User Rymphony Segalia says this is Not Allowed and is WP:FALSEBALANCE and so forth—because, why, a hundred sources say it, and there's no rule about their sources!
I feel like there must be some way to challenge "Segalia", in that situation! Similarly, although the situation here is not as clear-cut—no charlatans—there must be some consideration of the strength of evidence, such that one cannot count a hundred articles as "100x reliably sourced" if it all goes back to just one or two documents.
Re: Reliability of Sources, Pt. II (the list prev. posted):
The following was pointed out by Eiríkr Útlendi—among others—on the previous RfC, and I don't see that it's been reflected in claims made on this page:
>""CNN, Smithsonian, Radio France, and Times sources do not appear to be usable -- they either lack sources themselves (Radio France), or appear to simply be repeating Lockley."
User Tanukisann is evidently Japanese, and claims that very few Japanese historians consider Yasuke a samurai. He may be mistaken, I suppose, but it's worth considering in tandem with the "no English sources seem to doubt that he was" point, for context if nothing else.
Too, that casts some light on the question of whether sources which are silent on the matter weigh on the "pro-samurai" side, as some have argued. Considering secondary sources: it may be that Tanukisann is correct & it isn't mentioned because no one thinks it even needs arguing against; considering primary sources: we would expect that they would note something as exceptional as "this foreigner is a samurai", and the default assumption is that any one individual (especially a foreigner) is not a samurai—the former would suggest silence is damning, and the latter that it is at least neutral.
(Additionally, user R.stst adduced a purported primary source on the previous RfC, which might be worth considering by those who know Japanese.)
Finally, some more-pointed criticism, but meant without malice; please skip if this is an emotional topic—I don't mean to be an ass.
-------------
Well, as SmallMender points out: you've presented that list with CNN & Radio France etc. many times, but must be aware that it is heavily contested as to WP:RS status; forgive me if I've missed it, but I've not seen where you/anyone really addressed this. (Edit: Wait! I believe this is the same point that I already argue, above—with the "100 sources" hypothetical—so you have responded to it, if I'm not mistaken; obviously, I don't agree with the response, heh... but I was wrong to say it was unaddressed. My mistake!)
I also see that you forbid interpretation of what some statement by e.g. Goza means—but in the same breath interpret "some people" to mean "laypeople"... which seems a bit like a double standard. I'm here taking no position on which interpretation is correct, just sayin': surely one cannot have it both ways...
This would have likely made me feel like "probably the Yes-add-'debated'-clause side is right" from the off, had I seen it initially—you know, thinking like "why would someone have to pad the source list & use double standards if they were correct?" or whatever.
Tinynanorobots has made a similar observation, I see, so I don't think it's just me. But I do not mean this as an attack—and perhaps you will school me on why it's a totally wrong interpretation!—just offering it in case you weren't aware how it might come off...
(...but I recognize that "someone who's arguing with you" is not generally going to be a source of "take-able advice", heh, so pardon if it just made you mad.)
Cheers, all (& pardon for the length!),
Himaldrmann (talk) 11:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Since this is getting lengthy, and for the benefit of those who may be looking for an executive summary of the current state of sourcing on Yasuke's samurai status: at the conclusion of the last RfC[3] on this topic it was noted that there is a plethora of reliable sourcing that refers to Yasuke as a samurai.
It was also made apparent that not a single source argues that Yasuke was not a samurai, and this is still the case now. If anything the current state of sourcing is even stronger in that direction than before:
Claims that Yasuke was a samurai
Says it is possible, but not in the way depicted in video games
  • Yuichi Goza
Claims that Yasuke was not a samurai
  • (None)
As such, it would be a blatant NPOV violation to depict the majority view in RS as contested and I really do not see any rationale in doing so. We must be very careful about WP:FALSEBALANCE here.
That doesn't quite seem right to me. If a bunch of tertiary or secondary sources rely on the same document i.e. an expert e.g. a Japanese historian calls that document into question
This is a misrepresentation. As mentioned:
1. Speculation on when exactly the passage was added was entertained, but neither of them actually presented a conclusion in either direction. Entertaining an inconclusive hypothetical is not the same as making an argument that something is not authentic. Neither of them have conclusively made that argument (that it is not authentic) so attributing intention to them would be an WP:OR violation. Per WP:OR Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. On Wikipedia, original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources
2. There is an additional layer of WP:OR here by jumping from said hypothetical to the conclusion that Yasuke's samurai status can be represented as contested, which is not an argument either of them made either, and even if they did make that argument it would still be a minority view because the majority of experts are saying that Yasuke is a samurai. If and only if the plethora of experts update their assessment of Yasuke's samurai status, would said hypothetical become relevant to Yasuke's status.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, this is essentially double-layered WP:OR as well as WP:SYNTH to push a minority POV that is at complete odds with essentially all reliable sourcing on Yasuke, to create a textbook WP:FALSEBALANCE.
I think user Brocade River Poems makes a good point that there is only one—evidently—academic source that makes the claim, and based on the very document about which at least two Japanese historians (right?) have expressed some level of doubt.
I mean no offense by this, but whether a historian is Japanese or not makes no difference. This focus on ethnicity (WP:NATIONALISM) can be indicative of bias.
That said, it should be noted that Yasuke being a samurai is the majority view among Japanese historians as well.
Yu Hirayama and Mihoko Oka unequivocally refer to Yasuke as a samurai. Yuichi Goza, while inconclusive, still concedes that he may have been.
The point about there being only one academic source is also incorrect. For academic sourcing that refers to Yasuke as a samurai there is:
  • Atkins (A History of Popular Culture in Japan: From the Seventeenth Century to the Present (2nd ed.). Bloomsbury Academic. p. 72. ISBN 978-1-350-19592-9.)
  • Lopez-Vera (Toyotomi Hideyoshi y los europeos: portugueses y castellanos en el Japón samurái [Toyotomi Hideyoshi and the Europeans: Portuguese and Castilians in Samurai Japan] ISBN 978-84-9168-759-7)
  • Lockley (信長と弥助 本能寺を生き延びた黒人侍. Ohta Publishing. ISBN 978-4-7783-1556-6)
  • Yu Hirayama (self-published)
  • Mihoko Oka (both self-published and published)
  • Several academic reviews of the above
Of the academic sourcing that presents an argument that Yasuke was not a samurai, there is none (which leads to the next point).
E.g., imagine: A hundred different news & media outlets put out articles about how new research shows that Alexandre Dumas (père) was actually 100% white
It is the job of Wikipedia to follow the sources, and in fact even further than that one can say it is an obligation. Wikipedia policy is very clear on this: Wikipedia's content is determined by previously published information rather than by the personal beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it.
What this means in practice is that if reliable sources overwhelmingly say that Tom Cruise is orange, as a neutral encylopedia that is what Wikipedia would represent. Wikipedia editors are not WP:TRUTHFINDERS.
As it concerns history it is not the job of Wikipedia editors to arbitrarily interpret primary sources either. If a hundred reliable sources are saying something, that is what Wikipedia must represent as the majority view. And this is so important to the functioning of Wikipedia that this policy in particular (NPOV) has the provision that it cannot be overturned simply because a group of editors thinks an article would be better off without it.

This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.

Some two or three French literary historians protest that the news organizations got hoaxed by a fake document: the academic is a charlatan. An editor tries to insert a clause to this effect in the lede of the Wiki article about it. User Rymphony Segalia says this is Not Allowed and is WP:FALSEBALANCE and so forth—because, why, a hundred sources say it, and there's no rule about their sources!
If we have 98 reliable sources saying A, and 2 reliable sources saying B, then A is the majority view and it would be a violation of WP:NPOV to depict the majority view as contested. This is fundamental Wikipedia policy. I am glad you mentioned this though, because this is what I was getting at by mentioning that this seems to be different from the intention of this RfC (and thus should be handled separately).
This RfC does not appear to be about whether a minority view can be included somewhere in the article with appropriate weight, but rather it is about whether the majority view can be depicted as contested — that is to say, not as the majority view. These are fundamentally different things.
  • In regards to the former (I believe this is what Relm was referring to) I don't think that is a big deal.
  • In regards to the later, in other words this RfC, I cannot find any policy to support it and it in fact would contradict core Wikipedia policy in egregious ways given that there is still not a single RS that argues that Yasuke was not a samurai.
Too, that casts some light on the question of whether sources which are silent on the matter weigh on the "pro-samurai" side, as some have argued. Considering secondary sources: it may be that Tanukisann is correct & it isn't mentioned because no one thinks it even needs arguing against; considering primary sources: we would expect that they would note something as exceptional as "this foreigner is a samurai",
The idea that "silent" sources can be considered to be against (or "for") the position that Yasuke is a samurai, and I no mean offense, is preposterous and at complete odds with the most core parts of fundamental Wikipedia policy.
Per WP:V

Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. On Wikipedia, original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists.[a] This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources. To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article and directly support[b] the material being presented. The prohibition against original research means that all material added to articles must be verifiable in a reliable, published source, even if not already verified via an inline citation. The verifiability policy says that an inline citation to a reliable source must be provided for all quotations, and for anything challenged or likely to be challenged—but a source must exist even for material that is never challenged.

It is not the role of editors, nor Wikipedia, to arbitrarily assume the unsaid.
User Tanukisann is evidently Japanese, and claims that very few Japanese historians
This is not relevant, and is veering into WP:NATIONALISM again (and verily so some of Tanukisann's statements are very problematic - You are the one who is imposing the history created by white people, and you are the one who discriminates against yellow people. You are the one insulting Japan's history[4]; this is definitely not language that belongs in a RfC discussion). Mostly importantly though his claim is demonstrably incorrect.
Apologies for the length. Symphony Regalia (talk) 10:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
Well. I'm not convinced my silent sources thing isn't at least a little relevant, or that "what do Japanese historians say about this Japanese thing" is necessarily nationalism...
...but the rest convinces me pretty good, heh, especially the bit about the distinction between including some note somewhere in the article vs putting "it's hotly contested!" in the lede. I've changed my vote—thanks for your comprehensive response(s)!
Himaldrmann (talk) 13:03, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
Looking at your claims briefly.
  • Atkins (A History of Popular Culture in Japan: From the Seventeenth Century to the Present (2nd ed.). Bloomsbury Academic. p. 72. ISBN 978-1-350-19592-9) specifically says Nobunaga gave him a sword signifying bushi status. Yasuke served as Nobunaga’s retainer and conversation partner for the last year of the warlord’s life, defending Azuchi castle from the traitorous Akechi forces in 1582, where Nobunaga committed ritual suicide (seppuku).24 Although there are no known portraits of the “African samurai,", with African samurai in quotations and the source author definitively saying that Yasuke was given a sword signifying "bushi status". Interestingly, though, is that the source Atkins lists for this claim is Ōta Gyūichi, The Chronicle of Lord Nobunaga, trans. J. S. A. Elisonas and J. P. Lamers (Leiden: Brill, 2011), 385–6; letters of April 15 and November 5, 1581, Fróis Lúis, Cartas que os padres e irmãos da Companhia de Jesus escreverão dos reynos de Japao & China aos da mesma Companhia da India & Europa, des do anno de 1549 atè o de 1580, etc. (Segunda parte das cartas de Japão, do anno 1581–1589), vol. 2 (Evora: Manoel de Lyra, 1598), 3v–4, 65v.
The lamers translation of The Chronicle of Lord Nobunaga doesn't mention Yasuke being given a sword at all, is worth noting. However, Atkins doesn't actually say that Yasuke was made a samurai.
  • Lockley, Thomas (February 2017). 信長と弥助 本能寺を生き延びた黒人侍. Translated by Yoshiko Fuji. Does not appear to be used at all in the article in any capacity. Moreover, Lockley 2017 was determined to be the same as the dismissed Lockley 2019 he teamed up with Girard in 2017, whose new tips, ideas and techniques which continuously strengthened and took the book in new, exciting and often unforeseen directions. It appears these two books are in fact the same book, the latter having a popular history spin from Girard Talk:Yasuke/Archive_1#Lockley_2016,_Lockley_2017,_and_Lockley_2019?
  • Yu Hirayama (self-published). Not academically published, see my point of "single academic source". A self-published tweet by a historian who says if the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript is accurate than Yasuke is a samurai is not an academic source.
  • Mihoko Oka (both self-published and published). If Oka has a published source detailing Yasuke being a samurai, it hasn't been presented to my knowledge nor is it used in the article.
  • Several academic reviews of the above. Is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a source which can be verified. Simply declaring "there's several academic reviews of the above" is not tantmount to providing sources.
Which brings us right back to what I said. There is only a single academic source which definitively declares that Yasuke was a samurai, the Lopez-Vera. Brocade River Poems 23:26, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
Atkins (A History of Popular Culture in Japan: From the Seventeenth Century to the Present (2nd ed.).
Atkins refers to him as a samurai and says that he obtained "bushi status".
Lockley, Thomas (February 2017). 信長と弥助 本能寺を生き延びた黒人侍. Translated by Yoshiko Fuji. Does not appear to be used at all in the article in any capacity. Moreover, Lockley 2017 was determined to be the same as the dismissed Lockley 2019
Whether it is currently cited or not isn't relevant to the fact that it is an academic source that refers to Yasuke as a samurai. Also, Lockley was never dismissed. The amount of works where Lockley argues that Yasuke was a samurai include:
  • 信長と弥助 本能寺を生き延びた黒人侍. Ohta Publishing. ISBN 978-4-7783-1556-6 (peer-reviewed)
  • An African Samurai in Japan. Yasuke Medieval World Culture and Conflict, 2022年05月, 査読無し, 招待有り (peer-reviewed)
  • 信長の黒人「さむらい」弥助 ロックリ― トーマス つなぐ世界史, 2023年06月, 査読有り, 招待有り (peer-reviewed)
There have also been several academic talks:
  • African Samurai: True Story of a Legendary Black Warrior in Feudal Japan ロックリー・トーマス George Washington University, 2021年02月, 招待有り
  • Yasuke: An African Warrior in Japan ロックリー・トーマス The Smithsonian Institution, AfricAsia: Overlooked Histories of Exchange, 2020年09月, 招待有り
  • YASUKE: AN AFRICAN WARRIOR IN JAPAN WITH PROF. THOMAS LOCKLEY ロックリー・トーマス Aga Khan Museum, Toronto, Canada, 2020年02月, 通常論文
Yu Hirayama (self-published). Not academically published, see my point of "single academic source". A self-published tweet by a historian who says if the
Yu Hirayama's professional opinion itself is a reliable source per WP:EXPERTSPS. It is as follows:

It seems like there's a lot of talk about Yasuke, a black man who served Oda Nobunaga. There are very few historical documents about him, but there's no doubt that he was a samurai who served Nobunaga. Regardless of one's social status, if one's master promoted one to the rank of "samurai," one could become one in medieval (warring states) society.

Mihoko Oka (both self-published and published). If Oka has a published source detailing Yasuke being a samurai, it hasn't been presented to my knowledge nor is it used in the article.
Mihoko Oka has self-published that Yasuke was a samurai:

It should be a common perception in the study of Japanese history that the definition of “samurai” in the Warring States period is ambiguous. On that basis, if he “fought to the last with his sword” along with his Lord, I would say he was a “samurai”. I would like to say that he was a rarity, just as he was, without having to over-adapt it. A historian's soliloquy.

And professionally backs the idea as well through つながる世界２.
Lopez-Vera
Also directly refers to Yasuke as a samurai.
Several academic reviews of the above. Is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a source which can be verified. Simply declaring "there's several academic reviews of the above" is not tantmount to providing sources
Even critics of Lockley (Purdy) refer to Yasuke as a samurai in their own voice.
Which brings us right back to
It indeed does. You are mistaken. There is a plethora of academic sourcing that refers to Yasuke as a samurai. Symphony Regalia (talk) 04:58, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
My understanding is that Goza and Kaneko find the manuscript reliable on balance. However, I don’t read Japanese and I am relying on translations. This YouTube video is supposedly Goza talking about it https://www.youtube.com/live/t30qOpV_Ltg?t=2584s This blog post also seems to be by Goza: https://agora-web.jp/archives/240721081916.html Furthermore, it isn’t the only evidence used for the claim of Yasuke being a samurai, other scholars have pointed to other evidence.
However, I am all for adding nuance to the description of Yasuke, and explaining why historians think what they do. I would also like to point out that the article on William Adams (samurai) doesn’t use the word samurai, except in the title. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:49, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Replies to Gitz's !vote

The following thread was originally positioned as a reply to Gitz's !vote in the Survey section. It has been moved here due to its length.

How broad is this one year moratorium? The last RfC was used rather broadly to veto several changes that really didn’t contradict the consensus. A lot of the subject-matter experts have made comments that provide interesting nuance to the Yasuke´s status as a samurai. Cryns has even said that Yasuke may not be in the strictest sense a samurai. I think academics have given support to the idea that Bushi made be a better term to use etc. So while no academic has said that Yasuke was not a samurai, some have voiced uncertainty and others have said that the status doesn’t mean what people think. Tinynanorobots (talk) 06:26, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
The broadest possible moratorium. Who is "Cryns"? I didn't find any mentions to Cryns on this talk page. And who are the academics that support the idea that bushi may be a better term? Note that at Yasuke's time, during the Azuchi–Momoyama period, the word "samurai" referred to the "lowest-ranking bushi (see Samurai for sources), so that a warrior of elite stature in pre-seventeenth-century Japan would have been insulted to be called a "samurai" (see Wert [5]). As far as I know, to this day no expert has ever denied that Yasuke can be called a samurai. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:15, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Considering how broadly the last RfC was used, then it suggests that you wish to freeze the whole article and all other articles related to samurai for a year, even though there is reason to expect new works will be published on Yasuke before then.
[[Frederik Cryns]] His opinion is in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b3SGQO_Ij4 Some of the people mentioned in the video are just YouTubers who know a lot, but Steven Noriji is a researcher as well as Anthony.
If you look at the samurai talk page you will see that I pointed out that a few experts disagree with Wert, and I can´t establish who is right and if there is a majority view.
A good source for what scholars think is this google group:
https://groups.google.com/g/pmjs/c/mrXyZacOqdY
This is all scholars who study Japan talking to each other, so that means what they are saying, one can’t assume every scholar knows. Here are some relevant quotes:
"Personally, I do not agree even with using the term samurai to describe bushi in this period. Anyone familiar with Fujiki Hisashi, Takagi Shōsaku and, more recently, Fujii Jōji’s works will see how difficult it is to pinpoint the meaning of this and other correlated terms for the Oda-Toyotomi period. However, considering all the things that were given to Yasuke when he was given to Nobunaga (a house, a katana etc) he was certainly not carrying Nobunaga’s zōri around. ... What I am saying is that even calling a Japanese person a samurai in this period is highly risky, especially when dealing with low-ranking soldiers." Rômulo Ehalt
"Incredibly few historical figures whom we know as samurai or bushi, even the really famous ones, were directly labeled as such in the primary sources. This is not really all that surprising since "samurai" wasn't a formal court rank or title. At least as far as I have seen, when the term was used more often than not it was used as a general label for certain groups of people rather than to describe a specific person..." Paul Liu
"I got an inquiry from a stranger some months ago about whether Yasuke was a samurai. I replied that, on balance, I would count him as one, while cautioning my correspondent that the category is not always clear cut." David Howell
Saying that one
can
call Yasuke a samurai is different than saying that he is one. It is important to keep in mind that the Yasuke is a bushi argument is different from the Yasuke is an ashigaru argument or the Yasuke was a low ranking servant argument, or the we don´t know argument, even though they all get grouped together.
Tinynanorobots (talk) 07:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
Sorry for the late reply - I've just noticed this comment. Frederik Cryns is not the subject of a WP article, but he is a subject-matter expert [6]. What has he written about Yasuke? I couldn't find any references.
As for the YouTube video, I am not going to watch a 34 minute video by independent researcher Antony Cummins [7]. I doubt that the author of "How to be a Modern Samurai: 10 Steps To Finding Your Power & Achieving Success" qualifies as a subject-matter expert.
Finally, I looked at the Google group you linked to. Obviously it is not a reliable source... but I came across an email from someone who signs himself as "Dan Sherer", which could be this Dan Sherer [8] - a subject-matter expert. He says First off I want to say, purely based on the Japanese sources the answer to the question of whether Yasuke was a samurai is that by any reasonable definition Yasuke was.
Anyway, this is irrelevant. We should use reliable sources. Many people debate Yasuke's status as a samurai, but no reliable source does. For the (few) historians who have written on the subject in recent years, it is clear that he was a samurai, and the point is not disputed. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
I have Cryns' book In the Service of the Shogun, the one mentioned in the video, and he does not mention Yasuke at all. The Google group was discussed somewhat in archive 5. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 16:45, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
The Google group is actually quite interesting. David Howell, Professor of Japanese History at Harvard University [9], writes: I got an inquiry from a stranger some months ago about whether Yasuke was a samurai. I replied that, on balance, I would count him as one, while cautioning my correspondent that the category is not always clear cut. Before getting the inquiry I had not even heard of Lockley’s book. And I had no idea about all the controversies. Paula R. Curtis, another historian of medieval Japan [10], explains the "Yasuke affair" from the perspective of an insider - definitely worth reading. Dan Sherer (a historian of Pre-Modern Japan, with a focus on the Sengoku period) says that Yasuke was a samurai by any reasonable definition because he is made a vassal of a military family, given a stipend and a sword (さや巻之のし付) and a house and carries Nobunaga's (military) equipment. So while we don't have Gyuichi giving us a specific title, the suggestion is that he is being treated as a member of the samurai class, such as it was in the late 16th century. This tracks with Ietada Nikki (the other Japanese language source that describes him) and with the Jesuit source. The views of Japanese historians Oka Mihoko and Hirayama Yū, who come out on twitter in support of Yasuke's status as a samurai, are mentioned and linked by Paul Liu [11][12].
To sum up: Yasuke's status as a samurai is not disputed by historians, not only in reliable sources, but even in Google groups!
(Truth be told, there's also one "dissenter". Legal historian Rômulo Ehalt [13] writes I do not agree even with using the term samurai to describe bushi in this period and explains: even calling a Japanese person a samurai in this period is highly risky. With regard to Yasuke, he says that there are a lot of assumptions here taken from very scarce historical materials, and this includes all the attempts to answer whether Yasuke was a samurai or not.) Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:27, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Lopez Vera is also in that thread, as mentioned in archive 5.
>You said "purely based on the Japanese sources the answer to the question of whether Yasuke was a samurai is that by any reasonable definition Yasuke was". To this, 1) there are also European sources we should consider, I did read them in their original language, and they point to the opposite direction 2) there is also Ōta Gyūichi's chronicle, the version kept in the Sonkeikaku library, that also seems to say he was a samurai, in the 1581's standards. Regarding Lockley's book, I think we agree, and he kind of played a trick on us, since all these angry racist kids on the Internet are using his book to defend their poor arguments, they throw it at me all the time, like "oh, I see, you're just another Lockley", etc. Anyway, I think your idea of a collection of sources on Yasuke is a great idea.
As noted then, he seems to not agree that all primary sources imply that Yasuke was a samurai. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 02:59, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
Cummins has also written other books. He is most well known for his Ninja manuals. Historical documents that his translation team translates. Some books are self-published, but others are published by reputable publishers. His book Old Japan mentions Yasuke, but I don´t think that Cummins has researched Yasuke with any depth. I think that you would find the video interesting.
Cryn didn’t write about Yasuke in his book, he wrote about it in his email to Cummins. In the video, Cummins starts out by pointing out that when people ask if Yasuke is a samurai, they really want to know if he is a fighter, and not if he had the right lineage. He also discusses the difference between bushi and samurai and the difference between bushi and ashigaru. Basically, he says that in earlier periods the differences were bigger, but in the Sengoku Period, but differences had shrunk so that they were hard to tell apart. The difference between bushi and ashigaru is possibly that the ashigaru had loaner weapons. Cryn mentions that he is reading Ietada's diary, and that it uses the same word to describe the stipends given to other samurai. He adds that it is possible that Yasuke wasn´t a samurai in the strict legal sense, because he didn’t have imperial lineage or a court rank, but that high ranking bushi were sometimes called samurai. Cryn then suggest that he would consider Yasuke a Kinju, or lord´s attendant. A Kinju could be a page, samurai or bushi. The implication is that Cryn considers Yasuke at least a bushi. Most people mean bushi when they say samurai, so I don’t think we need to make the distinction.
I don’t think that we should cite the google group or the youtube video in the article, but I think we can use them and common sense to inform ourselves. Academics are not relying on one source to come to the conclusion that Yasuke was a samurai. I get the impression that most researchers would jump to the conclusion that a retainer means samurai. The problem with strict interpretation of Yasuke´s status as a samurai, is that it doesn’t allow any qualification.
Also, regarding experts, it is good to know their speciality, or more specifically, have they studied the issue. More weight should be given to a historian who has written about samurai status in the Sengoku period, than a historian who has mainly written about historic rice yields. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:47, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
The tweet you linked is from Hirayama Yu who later says, 私は、史料をもとに、自分の見解を述べただけ。 I was merely expressing my opinion based on historical documents here in response to someone saying that he was declaring Yasuke was a samurai. The previous RfC stipulated no source explicitly stated that Yasuke was not a samurai. Accurately reflecting sources which say there is a dispute is not tantamount to declaring Yasuke is not a samurai and thus does not require a source to explicitly say "Yasuke is not a samurai". There is Yuichi Goza's interview, where he says that he believes in reality Yasuke was simply a bodyguard and an entertainer, and there is Thomas Lockley's Britannica article which notably says the claim that Yasuke is a samurai is disputed by some people. The argument boils down to "There is one academic reliable source that says Yasuke is a samurai, so we should authoritatively say he was a samurai". The majority of tertiary sources relied on Lockley's book, which was deemed unreliable by consensus. Beyond that, we have Lockley's Britannica article, which says the status was disputed, and a number of sources who do not definitively say that Yasuke was a samurai, as well as a Japanese historian in an interview saying he doesn't believe Yasuke was a samurai. Choosing to ignore Yuichi Goza and the fact that the Britannica statement of dispute when the article uses the Britannica article isn't really adhering to WP:NPOV.
Also, your proposed moratorium is borderline WP:STATUSQUOSTONEWALL. Brocade River Poems 01:13, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
Well, Thomas Lockley's Britannica article says that the claim that Yasuke is a samurai is disputed by some people: probably the same people who dispute it on this talk page, on Reddit and on YouTube; soon we'll be able to have a section on this kind of dispute/disruption, as there are sources [14][15]. However, Lockley also says that Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians to be the first recorded “samurai” of foreign birth, and historians are what matter for the purposes of an encyclopedic article. As for Goza, he is an assistant professor who gave an interview to a right-wing newspaper (Sankei Shimbun). In that interview (and in a blog post) he did not dispute Yasuke's status as a samurai, that is, he did not said that Yasuke was not a samurai. He said that "we should be cautious" in concluding that he was, thus conceding that he may have been; being a lord's "bodyguard" in medieval Japan is compatible with samurai status. Basically, there are no new sources since the last RfC, and the few new ones do not support the existence of a scholarly controversy about Yasuke. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 07:58, 9 September 2024 (UTC) Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:05, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
"As for Goza, he is an assistant professor who gave an interview to a right-wing newspaper (Sankei Shimbun)."
This bugged me when I saw it said before, and seeing repeated word-for-word again bugs me even more.
Like, kinda poisoning the well a bit there, aintcha? No one has made an argument, as far as I can find, that the newspaper's political orientation means anything—even about the paper itself, in terms of factors relevant to this debate; certainly not anything about Goza.
Were I a less charitable man, I might think you've swung so far to one pole of the political spectrum that you've actually outright forgotten that there exist people to whom the descriptor "right wing" does not automatically mean "disregard & cancel all involved"...
(But—luckily—I think only the best of my fellow editors, and so I choose to view this merely as evidence of such steadfast commitment to the "no interpreting" principle¹ that you wished to leave it to the reader to decide if a man choosing to speak politely to a conservative newspaper—like some sort of goose-stepping, hate-filled maniac—is a datum they wish to use in informing their analysis, or if they're too biased to see how Goza is wrong about everything always now. 🫡)
¹: except when it's just REALLY obvious, like Britannica clearly thinking it worthwhile to note that random commenters online dispute it, in their scholarly compendium of expert opinion; that one's a "gimme". but other times no.
(...haha, just joshin' with you a bit, amigo! I'm not actually triggered! ...well, not very much—)
It seems each side chooses to concentrate on different elements of the debate:
• Yes side: "There is significant scholarly doubt about the single piece of primary evidence for this claim, so the apparent consensus on this issue is really just a few experts saying 'he was', a few experts saying 'I'm not so sure', and a proliferation of left-wing² media repeating the claims of the former. This would be—if in any less heated arena—normally a fairly clear case of a thing being disputed i.e. 'his status as samurai is by no means certain.' And, too, the Britannica article outright states that there is dispute on the matter."
• No side: "It doesn't matter if it appears to be the case that the original claim came from an unusually well-crafted piece of character background for a Japanese D&D game, or if it is found inscribed in flaming letters 100 feet high on Mt. Sinai: regardless, we cannot interpret sources—that is against the rules about synthesis & OR—and the sources say 'he was a samurai.' Meanwhile, no RS says outright he wasn't. And we can interpret the Britannica source to mean probably '[non-experts only dispute] this.'"
(You might notice that I, at least, perceive a contradiction or two in the "no" side...)
² (hey, if y'all can be throwin' poison around, I'd like to make sure everyone gets a taste—fair's fair—)
Cheers,
Himaldrmann (talk) 11:20, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Respectfully in regards to Sankei Shinbun, I will make that argument then.
Sankei Shinbun is a known nationalist publication. Throughout the RSN discussion over Lockley, many Japanese sources were cited uncritically, including some which were clearly nationalist in origin. I do not recall if it was Gitz or someone else who pointed a few of them out, but as an example one was employed to criticize Lockley and then in the next breath say 'if we don't get a handle on this it'll turn out like the comfort women issue'. Other sources made clear their objection to Yasuke being a Samurai entirely off of his race. This establishes a need to vet Japanese sources on the controversy, and why some who were apart of those discussions may feel vigilant towards known nationalist sources.
Sankei Shinbun is not a reliable source for Japanese History (WW2 revisionism, war crime denial, comfort women revisionism, nationalist bend on coverage, etc) in any stretch of the imagination. It is not listed on the list of sources, but I can't imagine it should be treated any different than similar publications that are on the list such as WP:NATIONALREVIEW. If it is included it should be with direct attribution to the historian making the claim in any case.
As for the characterization of the argument, I think it is more apt to say the dispute is over how much weight should be given to questioning the primary source's legitimacy. The consensus shown amongst historians - including many who are skeptical about the source - is that if the text is genuine, then Yasuke constitutes a 'samurai' by the loose definition that was employed during the Sengoku Jidai period for a variety of reasons. Those who are skeptical about the source seem to do so on the basis that any manuscript change is worthy of skepticism.
Any change to the article to reflect disagreement is thus less about disputing the claim of Yasuke constituting a Samurai, but rather the authenticity of the manuscript that claim comes from. This may sound like splitting hairs but when it comes to implementing such a change the difference is quite stark. See my other comments in this topic about how I view such changes should be handled. Relm (talk) 12:35, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
>"Any change to the article to reflect disagreement is thus less about disputing the claim of Yasuke constituting a Samurai, but rather the authenticity of the manuscript that claim comes from. This may sound like splitting hairs but when it comes to implementing such a change the difference is quite stark. See my other comments in this topic about how I view such changes should be handled."<
I liked your formulation as to the phrasing to use & would be fine with it, absolutely.
Cheers,
Himaldrmann (talk) 05:47, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Wow, you responded to a single line of text stating that Goza is an assistant professor and Sankei Shimbun is a right-wing newspaper with nearly 500 words of self-congratulatory mockery! Was it worth it?
The interview with Goza is a poor quality source because interviews as secondary sources are no different from self-published material. Sankei Shimbun's political leanings don't automatically disqualify it as a source (biased sources can be reliable) but they're not irrelevant either. Yasuke is at the centre of a culture war waged by right-wing netizens (neto uyo) who are outraged by the idea that a Black man could have been a samurai. That's likely why a nationalist, right-wing newspaper like Sankei Shimbun would publish an interview on what is essentially an academic yet minor topic. This is the same newspaper that in 2015 notoriously published a series of articles whitewashing the Nanjing Massacre. In the interview, Yūichi Goza says that Yasuke may have been a bodyguard and an entertainer, but concedes that he may have been a samurai. This interview is clearly not sufficient to include Yasuke's samurai status as "debated" (debated by whom?), as this RfC proposes. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:27, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Yahoo just published an article making the same arguments as Goza: [16]
>また、『信長公記』の伝本の中に、「弥助が私宅と鞘巻（太刀）を与えられ、時には道具持ちをした」と記すものがあり、もし、これらの情報が正しければ、弥助はサムライとして遇されていたことになる。
>結局のところ、史料の絶対的な不足から、弥助がサムライであったか否か断定することはできない。
MTL:
>In addition, one extant copy of "Nobunaga Koki" states that "Yasuke was given a private home and a scabbard (long sword), and sometimes acted as a tool carrier." If this information is correct, Yasuke would have been treated as a samurai.
>In the end, due to the absolute lack of historical materials, it is impossible to determine whether Yasuke was a samurai or not.
(@Relmcheatham as this is related to your post in this subthread as well also @BrocadeRiverPoems as this is related to some of the points you suggested we might add relating to Shinchō Kōki IIRC) J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 00:40, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Noting that in this case Yahoo is a news aggregator. The original source is 歴史人 (Rekishijin; "History Person/People"?), ja.wiki article; which is owned/affliated with Asahi Broadcasting Corporation. The original article is here. Rekishijin also has a few previous articles on Yasuke, which can be found by searching that site for "弥助". Rotary Engine talk 01:44, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Didn't catch that, thanks. According to WP:RSP, Yahoo syndicated content is not necessarily reliable. I have no idea if 歴史人 or Asahi is reliable. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 02:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
With Yahoo aggregated content, reliability depends on the originating source; as it does with with any other aggregator (e.g. MSN). A resonant example might be the articles from the Daily Mail which are syndicated in reliable news media - they don't become reliable by having been syndicated.
If I had to put forward an initial, rough, opinion on this source, I would say that: Shimazaki appears to be a subject matter expert on Japanese history; Rekishijin appears to be a reliable publication; and ABC appears to be a reliable publication group.
And that this is certainly no less reliable a source than tweets and Google groups - the converse being more true. Rotary Engine talk 02:38, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
edit: moved to Talk:Yasuke#Watanabe_Daimon's_article_in_Yahoo_newsJ2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 00:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
The author is listed as 島崎晋 (Shimazaki Susumu), which is the historical writer; ja.Wiki article. Rotary Engine talk 01:50, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
I do think there is some cause to put Shimazaki under some scrutiny for whether he counts as a subject matter expert. I'm aware of him through my studies of the Three Kingdoms period because his works are some of the most popular representations of it in Japanese. It is thus not a shock to see that his academic works are on Chinese History and religion, while he also writes pop history and religion aimed at a younger audience on a variety of basic topics. He is most certainly a Historian, but I am skeptical to the claim that he is a subject matter expert on Japanese military history, Sengoku Jidai, or any form of Japanese history. The following are his only listed works on Japan:
"Easy to Read Kojiki" Kosaido Publishing , September 2003. ISBN 4331509966
"Easy to read Tale of the Heike" Kosaido Publishing, July 2004. ISBN 4331510565
"Easy to Understand 'Kojiki'" Shinjinbutsu Oraisha , September 2009. ISBN 4404037325
"Japan's Ten Great Battles: The Strategies of Great Generals that Changed History," Seishun Publishing Co., Ltd., August 2010. ISBN 4413042840
"Japanese History Explained Through Money (SB Shinsho)" SB Creative , May 2018. ISBN 4797396148
"The Kojiki is so interesting you won't be able to sleep" PHP Institute, March 2020, ISBN 4569846823 Relm (talk) 13:18, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
His stance is stronger than Goza's (who I would describe as purely inconclusive).
He directly concedes that Yasuke is a samurai if the information is correct and does not make an argument that he was not (また、『信長公記』の伝本の中に、「弥助が私宅と鞘巻（太刀）を与えられ、時には道具持ちをした」と記すものがあり、もし、これらの情報が正しければ、弥助はサムライとして遇されていたことになる). Goza concedes that Yasuke may have been a samurai and does not make an argument that he was not, but qualifies it a bit more.
As for 歴史人, it is described as an entertainment magazine which would put it in the pop history category. Symphony Regalia (talk) 06:47, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
>"Wow, you responded to a single line of text stating that Goza is an assistant professor and Sankei Shimbun is a right-wing newspaper with nearly 500 words of self-congratulatory mockery! Was it worth it?"<
No, didn't you read? I said only an uncharitable man would think those things!
I'm afraid this is not even the only major blunder I've noticed: you accidentally a word in the very first sentence, which was almost certainly intended to read "...nearly 500 words of hilarious self-congratulatory mockery". (No need to apologize, though; I knew what you meant. :)
(...look, I admitted I was a tiny bit triggered--)
More seriously, though:
>"This is the same newspaper that in 2015 notoriously published a series of articles whitewashing the Nanjing Massacre."<
...okay, I didn't know it was that right-wing. I understand, then, why you included the qualifier.
Thinking about prior arguments used here, against evaluating sources / claims within sources, it seems possible there's some dissonance over the role of editor judgment... depending on whether we're discussing an unsympathetic-to-"Yes"-side instance, or the reverse:
  • ". . . if you conclude that a[n RS] is unreliable regarding a specific article's content, that conclusion must be based on other, more reliable secondary sources. . ." / ". . . [e]valuating reliability has nothing to do with the claims within sources. . . " / ". . . it is not the place for editors to determine what is true and not true. . ." (emphases added)
E.g.: to determine if "claim is based on a contested document" is a factor in its evaluation, or whether "this source is a puff piece by CNN Travel that contains known errors" might affect how much weight we give it -- then we cannot use our judgment or make a simple inference... but to cast a side-eye toward Goza's statements, or decide that the Britannica article probably means "some [non-experts] dispute" -- then we can use our judgment & don't need to find a secondary source saying exactly that "Goza can't be trusted; he's motivated by nationalist fervor!" (or whatever).
I'm aware that it's not impossible to square all of the above (& that you, Gitz, did not yourself commit to the latter quotes) -- so please understand, I'm not: making an argument against anyone in particular (you are all mis hermanos de sangre, totalmente) / saying that there's a hard-&-fast double standard in the above (very possible some criteria apply to X & Y, but not Z, for A-B-C reasons) / saying "you [Gitz] are contradicting yourself here, therefore" (& indeed, you're not!).
Only mean to gesture at an idea / suggest alertness re: different standards for convenient vs. inconvenient sources/arguments.
Cheers,
Himaldrmann (talk) 05:43, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
I think your point would be easier to understand, if it is explicit. It seems that you are implying something. I am guessing that you are saying that Goza is biased, but despite this bias still concludes that Yasuke is a samurai. If you want to make that case, you don’t need to rely on guilt by association. Goza criticizes foreigners for not making the protagonist in a Japanese game Japanese and mentions diplomatic incidents. I am not sure which land the Japanese government should be mad at in this case, France or Britain. This is a political position and one that is directly relevant to Yasuke.
I don’t think Goza´s bias in this case is important, because he mostly agrees with other historians. He thinks the relevant text is mostly reliable and that Yasuke was treated as a samurai and had the formal status of a samurai and was a bodyguard. He also thinks that Yasuke might have been in line for a fief. He just doesn’t think that Yasuke played a major role on the battlefield. Goza´s opinion that is most different from others, is his "entertainer" thesis, which may be based on a mistranslation. Tinynanorobots (talk) 11:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Yes, but my argument is not based on guilt by association, it's rather "look, not even the Sankei Shimbun managed to find an expert willing to commit to the no-samurai thesis". Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:41, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
That's actually a good point—why did you let me assume bad faith & go off on an unhinged rant like that, then, huh?!¹
...but see, this is what I don't quite understand!
What you've done here is make a reasonable inference from what we know, even though it's not, like, explicitly stated in other sources. Is this not the same as, e.g., reasoning thusly:
  • The Times, Smithsonian, CNN, etc. sources often pointed to in this thread—the collection of news media sources, you know—mostly either list no references, or use Lockley.
  • Repeating a claim doesn't tell us anything about its merit.
  • Hence, we may infer that 100 of these pieces quoting e.g. Lockley ought not count as 100x more weight on the one side of the scale.
Or:
  • The single published academic source² (Lopez-Vera) that references Yasuke's samurai status bases it upon a single recension of a single document.
  • That text is available in thirteen different actual manuscripts. Only one has the Yasuke claim. Some experts have expressed doubt about this portion of the manuscript being genuine.
  • Hence, from this and the above, we may infer that apparent overwhelming consensus on this topic is in fact on much shakier ground than merely citing every organization that did a puff piece on Yasuke might suggest.
Are these not very similar things to "if that paper could have gotten a hotter take from any historian in Japan, it would've", or to "Lockley's E.B. article's note that 'some people dispute [the claim]' seems to mean 'randos', else he'd have written 'some historians'" (...Himaldr said, still monomaniacally fixated on the minor point–)...?³
Sure, you're not making the argument to discard the source based on that, or anything, but it's at least being thrown into the evidence pile, as it were; and it appears to me that similar reasoning on the "other side" is not allowed to be.
...thrown into the pile. Er. You know what I mean.
I'm bowing out, after this; but all jokes aside, you seem reasonable & not as axe-grindy as some—so, genuinely: am I going seriously wrong somewhere above, then...?
I certainly think it would be a mistake to make it appear as if it's hotly debated—it seems there's almost no doubt Yasuke was what anyone today would call a samurai—but it seems to me a single line somewhere isn't out of order...?
Just to ensure the reader gets the impression that "it's slightly less certain than 'Octavian was the first Roman Emperor'", say...?
Anyway: as said, that's it for me, but I'll return to read (& may change my vote one last time, if you or anyone else shows me why I'm dumb & wrong here).
Cheers, and may the god of my people watch over you all.⁴   o7
 
(we all know I'll probably be back but ssh it's a touching moment ok)
 
fütnöten
¹: (in case it's not evident, I'm kiddin')
²: (Another, Atkins, has been adduced, but there seems to be dispute over content: he calls Yasuke "the 'African Samurai'", in "so-called" quotes.)
³: (Some may shout "WP:OR!", but from what I've been reading on the history RS page—& the RS context page, & RS page—it is actually expected that editors do this kind of minor but extremely useful reasoning.
⁴: ("Tripping Jaguar". We keep making offerings of teonanácatl in hopes he doesn't sober up & start demanding hearts and stuff again.)
Himaldrmann (talk) 16:38, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Repeating a claim doesn't tell us anything about its merit.
Editors are not WP:TRUTHFINDERS. It is not the job of Wikipedia editors to evaluate the merit of claims (it does seem you feel there is an inconsistency, so I will address that below). The job of Wikipedia is simply to present what is in reliable sources. And that is overwhemingly that Yasuke was a samurai. If we deviate from this we are then violating WP:NPOV.
I get the impression that you feel editors are being strict about this, but editors are being strict about this because policy is strict about this. Per WP:OR

On Wikipedia, original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources.

Wikipedia's content is determined by previously published information rather than by the personal beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it.

No source has actually stated the conclusion Yasuke was not a samurai, and there is a large amount that have, so it would be a textbook WP:FALSEBALANCE and WP:NPOV violation to depict it as disputed.
This is being stated in very strong terms because it is crucial to the functioning of Wikipedia to the point that WP:NPOV was given special provision that it can't just be sidelined because editors want to read between the lines or think an article would be better off without it: This policy ... cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.
It seems you believe there are some inconsistencies, namely:
1. That editors are debating the meaning of "some people", which is a manner of interpretation that should be forbidden per the above
Editors are not inferring what he meant by "some people". Inferring the meaning would be to conclusively state or imply that he meant "horde of angry video gamers" and then put that into the text. No one has made that argument. Some of just saying that he intentionally chose not to attribute it, and that it lacks weight as a unique statement.
2. That a lot of tertiary sources reference the same secondary material; in short these sources are just "repeating" a thing
This is feature of the weight provisions of WP:NPOV, not a bug. I would go even further and say that this concept (weight) is fundamental to how Wikipedia functions to the point that it would be non-functional without it. Wikipedia wants articles with sources that have tertiary coverage (WP:PSTS), and more importantly it wants editors to respect the weight given to secondary sources by tertiary sources.
If editors play arbiter and attempt to "balance out" tertiary coverage it then becomes a WP:NPOV violation. It is a seemingly good intention that would quickly lead to an unreliable encyclopedia. In terms of Yasuke this is not even really relevant because there are no secondary sources that state the conclusion he was not a samurai, and there are multiple secondary sources stating he is, but it is still worth noting.
3. That Sankei Shinbum is being treated unfairly for being right-wing
I think this has already been addressed, but I concur that it is not because of guilt by association. Rather, it is because that paper in particular has been linked to outright changing or denying portions of Japan's history such as the complete denial of war crimes, and the promotion of nationalist false history.
And as mentioned, even they couldn't find someone willing to make the argument that he was not a samurai. Symphony Regalia (talk) 23:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Replies to Green Caffeine's !vote

The following thread was originally positioned as a reply to Green Caffeine's !vote in the Survey section. It has been moved here due to its length.

>A concern of mine is that because BrocadeRiverPoems' question at the opening of this RfC (which used the word "controversial" which has strong connotations)
Where is the word "controversial" used in the opening of the RfC? I can't seem to find it. Was it changed in a later edit? Or do you mean "debated?" I agree "debated" left on its own is not so clear, which is why I wrote a comment here trying to explain what I think it means based on previous discussions. (The above link is meant to go to the text "Based on some of the discussion here", in case it is not working.) J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 18:16, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
You are right that it doesn't use the word "controversial." I'm sorry. I'll respond to the rest of your reply when I have more time in a bit. Thanks. Green Caffeine (talk) 19:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay in my response. What I am trying to say is that sources might use more measured language rather than directly asserting that Yasuke was a samurai no questions asked. In other words, tip-toeing around the idea that Yasuke was a samurai, or that he was a vassal that simply fulfilled the role of what could be considered a samurai. It's a significant difference in perspective, and not splitting hairs. If there are sources which directly call Yasuke a samurai, then that perspective can be included in the wiki article. Likewise, if there are sources which use measured language, such as the language that Thornton employs (Yasuke "had privileges that are markers of a samurai"), then that perspective must also be included. Editors are getting hung on the word "debated" which makes it sounds like we should be looking for sources that are about scholarly arguments asserting that one perspective is incorrect. There are multiple perspectives in play, and they probably aren't going to call out one another as incorrect. I hope my response is helpful. To be clear, Yes I support what this RfC is asking to be included, in the context of these paragraphs I have written. Green Caffeine (talk) 05:34, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

General discussion

  • Two questions. 1) As a tertiary source, why should Britannica's more general overview matter in comparison to the academic sources we already have? 2) Where in the Britannica does it state as such? There appears to be conversation up above about it referring to Yasuke being made a vassal. But that doesn't say anything one way or another on the samurai question. So you can't use it to prove a negative. In short, what exactly do we have that's new references on the question from after the last RfC, outside of quotes from Japanese media interviews? Which are minor sources in comparison to actual published scholarship, even if the person being interviewed is a historian. SilverserenC 02:38, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    Britannica states Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians to be the first recorded “samurai” of foreign birth, although this has been disputed by some people in its lead, which clearly indicates that someone disputes it. It also states the definition of samurai was ambiguous, but historians think, which presently cannot be represented in the article as the prior RfC declares that the usage of samurai is to be authoritative in Wikivoice. The phrasing "historians think" is not a definitive conclusion.
    As for Japanese media interviews, per reliable source guidelines, Yuichi Goza as a Subject Expert Matter shouldn't just be ignored. But, even if we ignore Yuichi Goza, the primary evidence of Yasuke's status as a Samurai is derived from the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript. Hiraku Kaneko's book, which is presently cited in the article, contains a statement by Kaneko that it cannot be discounted that the information about Yasuke was added to the manuscript after the fact during the transcription process, and it is also notable that the information about Yasuke is not included in any of the other versions of the Nobunaga Koki, which, again, cannot be represented due to the prior RfC.
    The actual published scholarship amounts to a book by Lopez-Vera saying that Yasuke was a samurai. While a good quality source from an Academic Press, Lopez-Vera cites to the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript for the information about Yasuke, the same information which Hiraku Kaneko maintains in his book might have been added in the transcription process. Lockley's Britannica article says that the status of samurai has been disputed by some people, Yuichi Goza, a Japanese historian, has interviewed in the media and expressed doubt, and Hiraku Kaneko has expressed doubt in his book over the validity of the passage that is the very foundation of the claim.
    It just seems appropriate to the enyclopedia that this should be represented.Brocade River Poems 03:11, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    What's interesting is that none of the references you noted are actually ones who dispute the statement. They just state things like "it cannot be discounted" in terms of additional possibilities, but the authors themselves don't actually directly state in their position that they dispute it. Even Goza just points out the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript without taking a position directly. So, who are the ones actually "disputing" it that we would be referring to? Because it's none of those you mentioned. This instead sounds like general scientific jargon of "well, it could also be this", but without anyone actually advocating for those alternative possibilities. SilverserenC 03:23, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    >Even Goza just points out the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript without taking a position directly.
    Goza specifically stated that 'we should be cautious in concluding that Yasuke was a "black samurai."' How do you take that statement? J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 03:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    Him not actually taking a position on it. He's not saying that Yasuke wasn't a samurai, just that how the sources are used should be done cautiously. But Goza himself isn't staking the stance that Yasuke wasn't one. Hedging a stance is definitively not disputing it. SilverserenC 03:34, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    I think the question is, should we as wikipedia also hedge it. There is evidence that the majority opinion among scholars is that the definition of samurai in the relevant period was vague, and therefore it isn´t worth arguing about if an individual like Yasuke was a samurai. Some scholars lean towards using bushi instead of samurai. Vera even says in his book that bushi is the proper term, but that he will use them interchangeably.
    This lists the views of several scholars on Yasuke, the term samurai, and Lockley´s book. https://groups.google.com/g/pmjs/c/mrXyZacOqdY?pli=1 I don´t see any of them claiming that Yasuke being a samurai as an indisputable fact. Tinynanorobots (talk) 14:06, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    This basically ends up with the same questional adage brought up in the previous RfC repeatedly. Even with the new sources you're discussing, is there literally a single one taking a definitive stance stating that Yasuke wasn't a samurai? If no, then we're literally in the exact same position as the last time this was discussed. If it is so disputed that Yasuke was/wasn't a samurai, then why isn't there a single academic-related source that is arguing directly that he wasn't one? Goza saying he wasn't what pop culture envisions as a samurai and that the technical samurai class system wasn't invented until later (something we're all very aware of and is already pointed out by many other sources) isn't an actual dispute against the many sources saying Yasuke was a samurai and a lord's vassal during the Sengoku era. SilverserenC 03:44, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    >He's not saying that Yasuke wasn't a samurai
    >is there literally a single one taking a definitive stance stating that Yasuke wasn't a samurai
    >why isn't there a single academic-related source that is arguing directly that he wasn't one?
    This RfC is not whether we should state that Yasuke was not a samurai. It is whether to "represent Yasuke's samurai status as debated." Stating unambiguously that Yasuke was a samurai is contested by the above sources, without any of them saying that Yasuke was definitively not a samurai. To give an example, imagine 1/2 of historians said the moon landing happened, and another half said there is not enough evidence to determine if the moon landing happened. That event would then be contested, and the lede should not read "the moon landing is an event that took place in [...]" without mentioning that half of the historians disagreed that such a statement be made unambiguously. Perhaps the RfC should be worded more carefully, although based on the literal meaning of the proposition in the RfC and previous discussions on this talk page I think this meaning was clear.
    >Goza saying he wasn't what pop culture envisions as a samurai and that the technical samurai class system wasn't invented until later
    Where does Goza say this in reference to the "we should be cautious" statement? This seems like synth. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 04:00, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    But Goza himself isn't staking the stance that Yasuke wasn't one, actually, he does. In his interview he says that he doesn't believe Yasuke was the legendary samurai that Westerners make him out to be and that it is his belief that Yasuke was a bodyguard and entertainer to Nobunaga. Regardless, though, the problem with the current RfC is that the foundational basis for Yasuke being called a samurai by other scholars has been called into question. The RfC ruling that says Yasuke should be represented as a samurai authoritatively in Wikivoice is being used presently to bludgeon any attempt to represent that the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript's authenticity has been questioned, to stop any attempt from removing redundancy from the article lead, and as justification for not representing a source for what it actually says (in the case of the Lockley Brittanica). Moreover, that none of the references you noted are actually ones who dispute the statement. I don't need to, the source itself vis-a-vis Lockley's Britannica article states in the lead that it is contended. There is no onus on me to hunt down and verify every individual whom the Encyclopedia Britannica might be referring to in this instance, as Wikipeida's job is only to represent what the Reliable Sources say. The Encyclopedia Britannica by Lockley has been deemed reliable. Just as the argument has been made that a source must definitively state Yasuke was not a samurai, I propose, then, that it should be undertaken to find a source that definitively states that it is not disputed, because the Enyclopedia Britannica definitively states that it is. Otherwise, this is WP:Cherrypicking to use the Britannica to support the statement that Yasuke is a samurai while ignoring that the Britannica says it is disputed.
    All of the high quality academic sources (that is to say, the single book by Lopez-Vera) that represent Yasuke as a Samurai draw their conclusion from the Sonkeikaku Bunko version of the Nobunaga Koki, based on a passage that two Japanese historians, one being Hiraku Kaneko (in the same book which is used to quote the Sonkeikaku Bunko passage in the very article) have called into question the authenticity of the passage.
    Which, again, we presently cannot even mention that Hiraku Kaneko expressed doubts about the authenticity of the passage regarding Yasuke through a strict interpretation of the RfC. Brocade River Poems 04:04, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    1. Not all reliable sources that represent Yasuke as a samurai draw their conclusions that from passage in isolation.
    2. The passage is not disputed. Rather, a hypothetical has been entertained, but no historian has definitely declared there is anything wrong with the passage, or even presented an actual concrete argument stating as much.
    3. This is a fallacy, as it does not follow that Yasuke was not a samurai regardless. Some experts may have already considered that hypothetical. Though to avoid speculation the only way for this matter in Wikipedia terms would be if experts updated their assessments of Yasuke's samurai status, which they have not.

    as Wikipeida's job is only to represent what the Reliable Sources say

    And the Reliable Sources in totality, even when factoring in new ones, are such that it is very clear that Yasuke being a samurai is the majority view in reliable sources.
    It would be a violation of WP:NPOV to depict something as contested when it is the majority view in reliable sources.
    It is also worth noting that the RfC did not decide Wikipedia's longstanding WP:NPOV policy on this. I imagine that such policy was added precisely for situations like these.
    WP:FALSEBALANCE is quite relevant here. Symphony Regalia (talk) 04:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    If the question is, what is the majority view among experts, then we should count experts, not articles. Let us look at your sources:
    • The Smithsonian: this cites a couple of experts: Prof Okuyama doesn’t say that Yasuke is a samurai, and doesn’t appear to be a historian. Doan has studied samurai, but isn’t quoted saying samurai. Then of course there is Lockley.
    • Time: Lockely
    • BBC: This describes Laurence Winkler as a historian, whereas his website describes him as a "physician, traveler, and natural philosopher" He did write a book, Samurai Road though. Serge Bile is a journalist and author, and wrote a book about Yasuke. Not a specialist on Samurai or Japan though. Also Lockley is cited.
    • Britannica: Lockley
    • CNN: Lockley
    • Vera's academic work: Vera
    • Lockley's academic work: Lockley
    • Atkin's academic work Atkin
    Total count: So that is 3-5 experts, depending on your standards for who qualifies as an expert. It is also important to note, that the article can’t say that something is academic consensus without a source that says explicitly that it is a consensus. I don’t think majority opinion is determined by counting sources. There isn’t a yearly poll of the opinions of experts on academic questions. Yasuke is more notable as a pop culture figure than as a historical one and there isn´t much scholarship on him. There is also consensus on what a samurai is. It seems to be acceptable among expert to call a lot of people samurai, even if it isn’t sure if they were considered samurai at the time. Especially, because in English Bushi and perhaps other Japanese words are translated as samurai. Tinynanorobots (talk) 13:44, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    Wikipedia policy goes by reliable sources, not individual people. Many sources often represent dozens of people through fact checking apparatuses, editorial department, and so on. There has never been a "one person one source" requirement. Symphony Regalia (talk) 02:57, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    I think it rather funny that you bring up WP:FALSEBALANCE when you cannot even reliably demonstrate that Yasuke being a samurai is commonly accepted mainstream scholarship. There are a plethora of sources which do not refer to Yasuke as a samurai, and a single academic book by Lopez-Vera and a handful of tertiary sources that do say Yasuke is a samurai. Even allowing for the argument that the sources don't explicitly say Yasuke wasn't a samurai, you are still left with a single academic source that says unequivocally that he obtained the status of samurai as Lopez-Vera does. You are making it out to be that there is an overwhelming amount of scholarship that says Yasuke is a samurai, so much so that representing any doubt to the fact expressed by the sources is apparently undue weight when that absolutely isn't even remotely close to being the case.
    a hypothetical has been entertained, but no historian has definitely declared there is anything wrong with the passage, or even presented an actual concrete argument stating as much.
    Yes, they have. Kaneko and Goza have both stated that it cannot be stated unequivocally that the statement about Yasuke wasn't added during the transcription process and that the passage only exists in the Sonkeikaku Bunko version of the manuscript. If there are 13 manuscripts of a Primary Sources, and only 1 of the manuscripts of the Primary source contains a pasage of information, and the historians studying the passage say they cannot guarantee it is authentic, that is a red flag and it should be represented in the article. Lopez-Vera, the only academically published book involved in saying Yasuke is a samurai, explicitly points to the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript and the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript alone. It is not unreasonable or undue in Wikipedia policies to represent that the authenticity of the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript has been called into question. Brocade River Poems 22:06, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    You are attempting to pivot from Reliable Sources, the standard that Wikipedia uses, because it is clear that the Reliable Sources do not support your POV. The job of Wikipedia is only to represent what reliable sources say. WP:FALSEBALANCE is very relevant here.
    At the time of the last RfC we had:
    • The Smithsonian
    • Time
    • BBC
    • Britannica
    • CNN
    • Vera's academic work
    • Lockley's academic work
    • Atkin's academic work
    • Several academic reviews of the above
    All of the above reliable sources refer to him as a samurai. There isn't a single RS that says he wasn't.
    This is still the case now, and in fact
    As of now:
    Claims that Yasuke was a samurai
    • The Smithsonian
    • Time
    • BBC
    • Britannica
    • CNN
    • Vera's academic work
    • Lockley's academic work
    • Atkin's academic work
    • Several academic reviews of the above
    • Yu Hirayama
    • Mihoko Oka
    Says it is possible, but not in the way depicted in video games
    • Yuichi Goza
    Claims that Yasuke was not a samurai
    • (None)
    There is still not a single RS making the argument that Yasuke was not a samurai.

    Kaneko and Goza have both stated that it cannot be stated unequivocally that the statement about Yasuke wasn't added during the transcription process

    In other words, they are not making the argument that it was added. They are simply entertaining a hypothetical. While it can be cited in itself, it is unclear language that cannot be used to draw arbitrary conclusions about other things by editors (otherwise you are engaging in WP:OR), because they themselves are not disputing it, and because the experts above have not updated their assessment of Yasuke's samurai. As mentioned, not all reliable sources that represent Yasuke as a samurai draw their conclusions that from passage in isolation, and even for those that do they might outright disagree. If and only if the experts do update their assessment of Yasuke's samurai status, does said hypothetical become relevant to Yasuke's status.
    Wikipedia OR policy is very clear about this.

    This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources.

    Symphony Regalia (talk) 01:10, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    Symphony, in every discussion you are bringing the same list of sources, while it has been already discussed at great length (including again this RfC) why The Smithsonian, CNN and Time, for instance, are problematic. May I ask why? This is really not conductive to having a productive discussion. SmallMender (talk) 07:20, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    At Wikipedia we follow sources, not original research or editor's views.
    Reliable sources do not become problematic just because editors do not like the conclusions in them, and/or because they contradict the outcomes of WP:OR. I see nothing in the previous RfC to indicate that those sources are "problematic", nor has such consensus been in any other discussion. Symphony Regalia (talk) 11:19, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    It is not about liking or not liking conclusions in specific sources, but about deciding if a source is reliable or not. If despite being pointed out numerous times (both in this RfC, in the previous RfC and in separate discussions about sources to the Yasuke article) why the sources I mentioned are not reliable, you refuse to acknowledge that, there is no further discussion to be had.
    I already put my vote in this RfC and will refrain from engaging with you any further. SmallMender (talk) 14:04, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    Contradicting WP:OR is not a valid reason to dismiss a reliable source, and this has been pointed out to you on multiple occasions. Symphony Regalia (talk) 10:56, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
    You seem to be using "reliable source" in a way that is not in line with Wikipedia's policies. Publishers like CNN, Time, etc. are "generally reliable," not reliable period. From WP:RSP:

    There is consensus that news broadcast or published by CNN is generally reliable

    These are not blank checks to repeat anything stated by individual articles from a generally reliable publisher:

    Context matters tremendously when determining the reliability of sources, and their appropriate use on Wikipedia. Sources which are generally unreliable may still be useful in some situations. [...] Conversely, some otherwise high-quality sources may not be reliable for highly technical subjects that fall well outside their normal areas of expertise, and even very high-quality sources may occasionally make errors, or retract pieces they have published in their entirety

    We can and should use original research in determining if a source is reliable. That is, for example, what the reliable sources noticeboard does. There is no secondary source that Wikipedia uses to determine the reliability of sources in many (perhaps even most) cases. Examples of original research in determining if a source is reliable is looking at the staff page of the outlet to see the qualifications of the journalists writing there and looking at the editorial policy of the outlet and the parent company if relevant. Sometimes a source is only considered reliable in certain years until the writing started to go downhill for various reasons, or a website may have started out as a blog but later became reliable, such as AnandTech. Additionally, consideration of a specific article trumps the general reliability of the outlet that published the article. The specific relevant factors here are the fact that this is a "technical subject" and that the given sources have "made errors."
    For example, the CNN article states as a matter of fact that

    Oda believed Yasuke to be either a guardian demon or “Daikokuten,” a god of prosperity usually represented by black statues in temples [...] In an era racked by political espionage, merciless assassinations and ninja attacks, Yasuke was seen as an asset. Nobunaga soon made him a samurai – even providing him with his own servant, house and stipend, according to Jesuit records.

    This passage is full of errors: "guardian demon," "even providing him with his own servant." As far as I know, none of these claims are mentioned anywhere in primary sources and are complete speculation, yet are presented as fact. The "Daikokuten" quote seems to be an even further embellishment of this line from African Samurai.

    Black was the color—if one believed in such things, which Nobunaga did not—of gods and demons. Not men. Nobunaga had seen such a “god,” Daikokuten, before in the Kiyomizu Temple, a short walk away. And, the protective guardian demons at the gates of most temples were often dark skinned: black or deep burgundy. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 18:08, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

    Publishers like CNN, Time, etc. are "generally reliable,"
    "Generally reliable" is actually the highest standard there is. Either way, editor WP:OR cannot be used to strike reliable sources.
    We can and should use original research in determining if a source is reliable
    This is a fundamental misunderstanding of source evaluation. Evaluating reliability has nothing to do with the claims within sources. As it does concern the claims within sources, if editors want to say that a claim in a source is wrong, you will need other RS and experts stating as much. Weight also factors in, but weight in either direction does not imply that something is correct or incorrect.
    This passage is full of errors: "guardian demon," "even providing him with his own servant." As far as I know, none of these claims are mentioned anywhere in primary sources and are complete speculation
    Again, these are not errors. This is analysis, and that is allowed. More than just allowed, this manner of analysis is actually what we rely on secondary sources for (their analysis of primary source material, and the conclusions they draw from it). WP:PSTS makes very clear:

    All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.

    It is not the place for editors to determine what is true and not true, otherwise you are elevating Wikipedia to the role of the arbiter of the truth. Reliability evaluation instead focuses on material factors such as conflicts of interest (financial, political), evaluating how many people are involved in a review/editorial capacity, etc. CNN, Time, etc are very reliable in that capaciy and that does not change just because some editors disagree with content. Symphony Regalia (talk) 23:23, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
    Lockley uses the term "some people", choosing to not refer to them as historians. He makes clear that among experts there is a clear consensus that Yasuke was a samurai.

    "Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians to be the first recorded 'samurai' of foreign birth".

    This is Lockley stating that he does not believe there is a debate among the people who matter for Wikipedia's V and NPOV purposes (experts).
    "Some people" is unattributed, and could very well refer to the internet fringe angry over a video game. The only thing we know is that it is not historians. It's also worth noting that this comment amounts to tertiary opinion on the behalf of Lockley, which isn't enough to say that something is contested (Wikipedia policy usage is very different from plain English). To determine if it is actually contested by Wikipedia's standards one should look at current reliable sources, and when doing so it is abundantly clear that Yasuke being a samurai is the majority view in them, which has not changed. Symphony Regalia (talk) 04:05, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    This is Lockley stating that he does not believe there is a debate among the people who matter Is WP:OR, you cannot testify to the decision or mental thought processes of why an author used what wording. Stating commonly held by Japanese historians speaks only to Japanese historians, meanwhile, Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians to be the first recorded “samurai” of foreign birth, although this has been disputed by some people the notation that it has been disputed by some people is attached to the statement about historians, not separated from it, and does not speak in any particular way to the expert nature of the people. It is an ambiguous statement which cannot be determined to definitively say "Lockley says they're not experts". Perhaps some people refers to historians who are not Japanese. Without a heavy dose of WP:OR by way of any analysis...that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources you cannot speak to the nature of the individuals who are disputing it. Brocade River Poems 04:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    I can state that Lockley explicitly choose to use the term "some people" for disagreements, choosing to not refer to them as historians, while explicitly attributing "Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians to be the first recorded 'samurai' of foreign birth" to historians, because that's what he did. Symphony Regalia (talk) 04:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    It sounds like a double standard on your part. If I try to analyse what sources are saying, then you accuse me of WP:OR and say that we can’t question them. I am inclined to believe that Lockley means non experts, but we can’t rule out other meanings. It is ambiguous. If it is people whose opinions don’t matter, then why does Lockley include it? It could also be unintentional. Often topics are just described as disputed, without qualifying who. In fact, Lockley said so in his Peer reviewed article (he should have cited a source, so if anyone has access to the article it would be a good place to check.) Tinynanorobots (talk) 11:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    It is not a double standard. Lockley is the one who choose to not attribute "some people". It could refer to the reactionary internet fringe angry that Yasuke is being featured in a video game, it indeed could also refer to some other group. Symphony Regalia (talk) 03:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    Yeah, "some people say" is classic MOS:WEASEL - it presents the appearance of support for statements but can deny the reader the opportunity to assess the source of the viewpoint. And since Lockley didn't identify or give attribution to who these "people" are, we have no way to assess the source of the POV that it is "disputed". And this - you cannot speak to the nature of the individuals who are disputing it - makes the point that these "people" are not identified or given attribution, so it's just plain WEASEL. In other words, we can't give any WEIGHT to these "people" and their POV about it being "disputed", because we don't even know who the hell they are. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:24, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    The Wikipedia Manual of Style doesn’t apply to sources. A lot of the sources that are used for this article would not be considered very good, by wikipedia policy. I think the question here, is can we put in the article that Lockley says that it is disputed. I am not sure that we should put it in, but we can, because that is what Lockley said. Tinynanorobots (talk) 12:00, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    Mr. Goza does not say that he was a samurai, only that if the story that Yasuke gave him a sword, etc. is true, it can be assumed that he was a samurai.
    Lockley uses expressions such as generally believed but does not specify who is generally thinking. Japanese people and Japanese history experts generally do not think so.
    It's simple. I don't know even if I look it up because I don't have the materials. No one is investigating.
    Who was arguing about Yasuke?
    I think if you're saying that Lockley is "debatable," you can write it that way. No one in Japan actually discusses this, and only non-Japanese people believe that he is a samurai.
    So, while someone who wants to write it as samurai might write it as such on the English version of Wikipedia, it would never be written that way on the Japanese version.
    There is a debate about whether Yaske was a samurai in the Japanese version as well, but I think it will probably be written as ``We don't know whether Yaske was a bushi or a samurai because there are no documents.
    The Encyclopedia Britannica says that he was given servants, so some people want to write about that.
    That's understandable, but is it reliable information?
    Can you verify the source of information? What did you use as a reference?
    If the content reported by many media outlets such as Britannica, CNN, TIME, etc. is based on Rockley's claims rather than having been verified by multiple experts, then they are not reliable sources of information. , its contents belong to Rockley.
    Very little has been written about Yasuke.
    There are very few primary sources.
    The Shinchō Kōki（信長公記） is a sort of heroic tale about Oda Nobunaga, and strictly speaking is a secondary source.
    Britannica and Wikipedia are tertiary sources.
    Why is something written in tertiary sources that is not written in secondary sources? Tanukisann (talk) 14:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    I would like to add one thing.
    In the Japanese version of Wikipedia, I wrote that there is a debate as to whether Yasuke is a samurai or not.
    Those who claim that Yasuke was a samurai say that there are the following reasons.
    "Those who believe Yasuke was a samurai have plenty of evidence, including Britannica, TIME, CNN, the BBC, Lockley's paper, and many others. Those who do not believe he was a samurai do not provide evidence."
    I don't know why, but there's a similar text a little higher up.
    They get rejected, and then a little while later, they try to make the same claim again, and they keep repeating the process.
    It's strange, isn't it? Tanukisann (talk) 15:17, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    I am guessing there is a language problem causing some unclarity. However, there are Japanese people who talk about this, specifically Japanese historians. A large part of the argument that Yasuke is a samurai is that few people were called samurai back then. It was usually used to refer to a group. Also, the meaning of samurai and possibly bushi are vague. A lot of famous figures are called samurai without evidence. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:13, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    No, we can not say in the article that Lockley says that it is disputed, because he did not say that in the Britannica source, he said "some people", which makes it weasel. If we are going to say in the article that his status as a samurai is debated, then we have to give attribution to who is making the opposing argument against his status as a samurai. And then we must decide if we should give WEIGHT to that opposing argument, based on the prominence of that viewpoint in published reliable sources. If it's a minority viewpoint, then UNDUE needs to be considered as well, in contrast to what the majority viewpoint is. WP:FALSEBALANCE says unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:17, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    In his peer review article, he says disputed. We can quote Lockley. Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:40, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    Lockley does not attribute them to anyone, so it's still weasal. Also, quoting a single tertiary opinion is not the same as a topic being disputed in terms of Wikipedia policy. Symphony Regalia (talk) 03:33, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    Wikipedia Manual of Style doesn't apply to what the sources say. If the Reliable Source represents that something is disputed, there is no less reason to take it at face value than there is to take a source at face value for any other claim it makes.
    Numerous academic books will contain some variation of the phrase "but others disagree" without delving into who the others are, it is an acknowledgement that a theory or argument being made is not a universally accepted one. I have become involved in another dispute on Wikipedia over the origins of Neith, whether Egyptian or Libyan, and all of the sources that discuss Neith as Libyan do not identify the originator of the theory nor the opponents of the theory but tend instead to say something along the lines of "some historians believe that Neith is of Libyan origin, but other Egyptologists note there is no concrete evidence". Neither the originator of the theory nor the opponents are identified by name and, yet, the dispute very much exists. The Brittanica article states that Yasuke as a samurai is commonly believed by Japanese historians, and yet, it doesn't list specific Japanese historians that believe this and nor has anyone presented any academic publication in Japanese that definitively says that Japanese historians say this, but it has been deemed acceptable for use in the article to support Yasuke's status as a samurai. Since the Encyclopedia article says it is disputed, we cannot just cherrypick the supporting evidence and ignore the statement that it is disputed.
    Per WP:NPOV, Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them. The aim is to inform, not influence. Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information and not to promote one particular point of view over another.
    Other editors have mentioned that guidelines also state Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view but, frankly, what majority view? There is one academically published secondary source that the article uses and a handful of tertiary sources, several of which are based on a book thats reliability is dubious (Thomas Lockley's book), and an Enyclopedia Article by Thomas Lockley which self-admits that the claim is disputed. We have a Japanese historian in an interview who has disagreed with claim as well as Hiraku Kaneko's doubt that the passage in the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript, on which Lopez-Vera basis his statement of Yasuke being a Samurai, is authentic. It's hardly a minority view worth exclusion when two Japanese historians have expressed doubt about the authenticity of the foundational text used by the Spanish historian to make the assertion, one of whom, Hiraku Kaneko, is an expert in the time period employed by the highly esteemed University of Tokyo Historiographical Institute. The man who in quite many senses of the word wrote the book on Oda Nobunaga expressed doubts all the way back in 2009 when his book was published that the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript was completely authentic. It is a minority view which is worth inclusion because it allows the readers of the encyclopedia to draw their own conclusions.
    Also, the top of the page which contains MOS:WEASEL states: The guideline does not apply to quotations, which should be faithfully reproduced from the original sources
    Likewise, the guidelines found in the helpful essay WP:PRESERVEBIAS There is no policy that dictates that we cannot document, use, and include "non-neutral" sources, opinions, or facts in an article body or its lead. In fact, we must do this. A lack of such content may be an indication that editors have exercised whitewashing and censorship. It is a serious violation of NPOV to use censorship and whitewashing to remove any non-neutral opinions, facts, biases, or sources. Our job is to document "the sum total of human knowledge," and editors must not leave or create holes in our coverage.
    While it is true that Editors must be honest and guard against consciously or unconsciously framing material in a manner that misrepresents its original meaning or presents it with a slant or point of view not found in the source. Such misrepresentation may occur by painting a rosier picture, using sophistry, manipulation, or logical fallacies, appealing to emotion, or using propaganda techniques, spin, or weasel words.
    That applies to writing the encyclopedia, not the content of the sources. See WP:ACCORDINGTO which says Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. As I said, Lockley's Brittanica Article has already been deemed reliable. The Yasuke article on the Encyclopedia Brittanica is a tertiary source,
    Reliable tertiary sources can help provide broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources and may help evaluate due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other
    Per Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_truth#"If it's written in a book, it must be true!"
    The best way to describe a dispute is to work with a tertiary source that already describes the dispute and cite it as a reference. Tertiary sources may also help to confirm that there is a legitimate dispute to begin with, and not just a fringe theory against a universally accepted idea. Brocade River Poems 21:51, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    >Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view but, frankly, what majority view?
    Another point worth mentioning here is that "majority view" is less relevant when the sample size is so small. From WP:NPOV:
    >If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
    There are no reference texts involved in this dispute as there is very little research done on it, which itself is another reason not to state one viewpoint as fact over another. It makes sense to speak of a majority view when there are multiple in depth sources about a topic. Citing passing mentions from Vera and Atkins who do not explain their view at all should not be considered the same majority view as, for example, the majority view about the causes of major wars which have been studied in depth by thousands of scholars. A 3 vs 1 majority is not the same as a 100 vs 3 majority. In any case, a 1/4 minority view is still rather large and should easily qualify as a significant minority. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 22:34, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    "Reference texts" in this context means reliable sources that support the majority view. For Yasuke, there are many of them (roughly 13 in favor, 0 against, 1 inconclusive though this inconclusive one was published in a source that may be unreliable (Sankei - Together with its English-language paper Japan Forward, the Sankei Shimbun has been described as having a far-right or right-wing political stance")).
    Lastly, Wikipedia's NPOV makes no reference to "sample size" which would be rather arbitrary, and in any case not relevant here as the number of sources on this topic is quite large. Symphony Regalia (talk) 02:52, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    Isaidnoway makes a good point in that it is indeed weasal language. Just because it can be directly attributed does not mean it is not.
    If the Reliable Source represents that something is disputed, there is no less reason to take it at face value than there is to take a source at face value for any other claim it makes.
    Saying that someone says something is disputed, by some unattributed other, is not the same thing as something being disputed in terms of Wikipedia policy. If something is disputed in terms of Wikipedia policy, it means there is no clear majority view which in this case is false.
    By looking at reliable sources it is abundantly clear that Yasuke being a samurai is the majority view. In fact, there is not a single RS that argues that he is not.
    Since the Encyclopedia article says it is disputed, we cannot just cherrypick the supporting evidence and ignore the statement that it is disputed.
    At best, you can attribute it solely to Lockley, which is not the same as suggesting that there is a debate among RS over Yasuke's samurai status.
    It is also worth noting that this is a misunderstanding of fundamental Wikipedia policy. Per WP:RSCONTEXT and WP:VNOT not every line in every article has to be included.
    Other editors have mentioned that guidelines also state Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view but, frankly, what majority view?
    As mentioned above:
    • The Smithsonian
    • Time
    • BBC
    • Britannica
    • CNN
    • Vera's academic work
    • Lockley's academic work
    • Atkin's academic work
    • Several academic reviews of the above
    • Yu Hirayama
    • Mihoko Oka
    All make the claim that Yasuke is a samurai. In the 2 or 3 years since the Netflix series there is not a single reliable source that makes the argument that he was not.
    It's hardly a minority view worth exclusion when two Japanese historians have expressed doubt about the authenticity of the foundational
    1. Entertaining a hypothetical is not the same as making an argument that something is not authentic. Neither of them have actually made that argument so you are now attributing intention to them which is a WP:OR violation.
    2. You are engaging in further WP:OR by trying to jump from said hypothetical to the conclusion that Yasuke's samurai status can be represented as contested, which is not an argument either of them made either, and even if they did make that argument it would still be a minority view because the majority of experts are saying that Yasuke is a samurai. If and only if the plethora of experts update their assessment of Yasuke's samurai status, would said hypothetical become relevant to Yasuke's status.
    This is essentially double-layered WP:OR as well as WP:SYNTH to push a minority POV that is at complete odds with essentially all reliable sourcing on Yasuke, to create a textbook WP:FALSEBALANCE.
    Per WP:OR Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. On Wikipedia, original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists.[a] This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources
    Wikipedia policy is very clear on the above.
    Likewise, the guidelines found in the helpful essay WP:PRESERVEBIAS There is no policy that dictates that we cannot document, use, and include "non-neutral" sources, opinions, or facts in an article body or its lead. In fact, we must do this. A lack of such content may be an indication that editors have exercised whitewashing and censorship. It is a serious violation of NPOV to use censorship and whitewashing to remove any non-neutral opinions, facts, biases, or sources. Our job is to document "the sum total of human knowledge," and editors must not leave or create holes in our coverage.
    This is an essay and it definitely cannot override Wikipedia NPOV policy. Not only can an essay not override Wikipedia guidelines or policy, but even other policy cannot override Wikipedia NPOV policy (This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus). Per WP:NPOV:

    Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view. Views held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as the flat Earth). Giving undue weight to the view of a significant minority or including that of a tiny minority might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject. This rule applies not only to article text but to images, wikilinks, external links, categories, templates, and all other material as well.

    The best way to describe a dispute is to work with a tertiary source that already describes the dispute and cite it as a reference. Tertiary sources may also help to confirm that there is a legitimate dispute to begin with, and not just a fringe theory against a universally accepted idea.
    This is an essay, not Wikipedia policy, so I will directly refer you to WP:V which is very clear on how prominence and dispute status is determined.

    Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources.[c] Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views.

    Symphony Regalia (talk) 02:41, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    Regarding the Yasuke article, I think we have to ignore Wikipedia's article writing standards to some extent.
    Wikipedia specifically lists multiple media sources as reliable sources of information.
    These are reliable sources of general news and information.
    Even if there is incorrect information, since multiple media outlets report on a single event, it is possible to check which information is reliable and which is false information.
    The situation is different for yasuke.
    There are only a limited number of reliable primary sources. These include the Ietada Diary（松平家定日記） and documents from the Society of Jesus.
    There is no doubt that there was a man named Yasuke, that he was black, and that he was favored by Oda Nobunaga and became his subordinate.
    All Japanese historical commentators agree on this, as does the Japanese version of Wikipedia.
    There are also limited secondary sources. This includes several manuscripts of Shinchō Kōki（信長公記）.
    This is a biography about Oda Nobunaga that was created during the Edo period. The author also wrote biographies of great figures such as Toyotomi Hideyoshi and military records of Tokugawa Ieyasu. One of them. Since he was one of Nobunaga's subordinates, if it is an original document, it can be treated as a primary source.
    However, it has been lost, and now the only copies left are those that were later copied by someone other than the author, and the contents are slightly different, so it is possible that some information was added later.
    Yasuke appears in multiple manuscripts, and only one of them contains information such as Nobunaga giving him a house.
    Even if you look at all the primary and secondary materials, there is no material that specifically describes what position he held.
    For example, just because a man served in the English King's army and fought wearing arms and armor, it does not mean that he or she was given the title of knight.
    If I were to write an accurate introduction about this man, I would simply say that he was a man who served in the English King's army.
    Even if someone were to write a fictional novel about that man and he was promoted and received a knighthood, I would not say anything. It's because it's a creation.
    There is also nothing wrong with creating a hypothesis that he was knighted. You are free to think.
    Lockley Thomas wrote academic books rather than fictional novels.
    He argued that the content was not a hypothesis, but a fact.
    Yasuke is so little known that I did not realize that there were studies and papers about such a person. There were almost no objections. Even if someone had noticed, would he have been able to object? Even though there are no materials.
    In this way, the imaginary figure of Yasuke created by Rockley became the correct history of Japan in the West.
    The image of Yasuke known in the West today is largely a figment of Lockley's imagination.
    Just because the media reports on Lockley's imaginary creation, can we really trust it?
    The other day, an Amazon drama in which the British king was black, gay, and in a wheelchair was criticized.
    Let's say that this story was created a dozen years ago without anyone knowing about it, and that it spread throughout Asia and the black community without Westerners knowing about it, and became famous worldwide.
    Even when people in the West say, It's not a historical fact, they say, Look, there are lots of news stories and articles from Asia and Africa. You guys just didn't know. You're in the minority. How would you respond?
    Netflix clearly states that the content is fiction. There are limits to what they can tolerate, but Japanese people are generally tolerant when it comes to fiction. Rather, they enjoy it themselves.
    That's why no one complains.The Amazon drama went too far, so I got scolded.
    This is exactly the situation Japanese people are in.
    A story is made up without our knowledge and spread, and when we realize it, it's like we're being forced to follow it with the words, "You just didn't know. We are the majority in the world, so you have to go along with it."
    Although they may not want to admit it, Wikipedians are among those forcing their own fabricated history on the world.
    To be clear, a new trend is emerging in Japan due to the issue of France's Assassin Create and the Yasuke issue caused by Lockley Thomas.
    "This is the true nature of white people. White people believe that they are righteous people. White people compromise and recognize black people as human beings. And they think that yellow people are racially worthless. Therefore, white people also think that Japan They cannot distinguish between China and Thailand, and they falsify Japanese history without permission."
    They believe that white people have created history for them, the yellow race, and are forcing them to accept it.
    I've gotten off topic, so let's get back to it.
    Wikipedia requires people to create articles based on information. At the same time, although not so much as censorship, it is necessary to at least check whether the information is correct.
    If the result of that confirmation is that there is no correct information, that it does not exist in the media or in books, then you should mention that.
    I propose to write it like this.
    A. There are no documents that clearly depict whether Yasuke was a samurai or not.
    B. The Sengoku period was a period of flux, and the position of the samurai was also in flux. Definitions differ among experts, and there are no clear standards. Some people, such as Rockley Thomas, say ``Yasuke was definitely a samurai, while others, like Yuichi Kureza, say ``It is impossible to say that Yasuke was definitely a samurai. There is no unified opinion. do not have. Tanukisann (talk) 12:08, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    Symphony Regalia, do you understand?
    You are the one who is imposing the history created by white people, and you are the one who discriminates against yellow people.
    You are the one insulting Japan's history.
    I do not believe that everyone here is like him, but I am astonished at the number of people who have entered information about Yasuke that is not in the documents and who refuse to correct it, claiming that what they have entered is not incorrect, citing a history that they have created of their own accord. Tanukisann (talk) 12:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    You are pushing a minority viewpoint that runs against the experts Hirayama Yu and Oka Mihoko. Your long rant about Netflix is unrelated to your minority viewpoint. NotBartEhrman (talk) 12:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    I think @Tanukisann's point is rather that it is not a minority viewpoint in Japan, and that most of the sources cited by the "pro-samurai" side here appear to be proliferated from a single contested document.
    A user above makes the claim that there is only a single academic source that supports the "he was a samurai" position—Lopez-Vera's—and as far as I can see this has not been challenged. (However, my dam' 📱 is not displaying anything right, so I may be mistaken.)
    Hirayama Yu did not say Yasuke was a samurai, as far as I know—where is this coming from? The only thing I have seen Hirayama say is that Yasuke was a samurai in all but name.
    Oka Mihoko was very critical of Lockley's work and only said "'samurai' was vaguely-defined at the time, so it could be fair to call [Yasuke] a samurai" (emphasis mine).
    Yuichi Goza and Hiraku Kaneko have both expressed doubts—one about the claim, the other about the source of the lines in the manuscript the claim is based upon, if I'm not mistaken, though I may be about Kaneko.
    So... that is not at all a minority viewpoint: 1 for (LV), 1 "could be fair" (OM), 1 (YG) or 2 (depending on how we categorize Kaneko) uncertain/in doubt, 2 against (HY & Yuichi Kureza)—that is, of those available to the English-speaking editor; possibly, if we are to believe Tanukisann & another Japanese user (R.stst I think?), in Japan the minority view is that the question is even in doubt at all (on the side of "not a samurai"). Himaldrmann (talk) 13:19, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    It's totally sensible to be critical of Lockey's work, especially with the many inexcusable differences between the Japanese and English versions of his book. Regardless, Tanukisann is manufacturing a Japanese position that does not exist, and putting words into the mouths of Japanese historians. The consensus among subject experts is that it's fair to put Yasuke on the level of a samurai; Hirayama did not write against that. NotBartEhrman (talk) 14:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    It has been pointed out that I am speaking for what many Japanese experts are not saying. I'm not denying it because it's not wrong.
    I would like to take this opportunity to clearly state what Japanese experts think, although no one has said so. There is a hint in what Mr. Oka and Mr. Goza said.
    "I don't know about Yasuke because I don't have the materials, so there's no way to investigate. Please don't let that interfere with my work. And don't involve me. I don't want to be part of a suspicious person like Thomas Lockley. not"
    I don't know if it's out of kindness or just to show off, but I'm thankful that there are experts out there who will speak up without me asking. Tanukisann (talk) 17:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    Such an analysis will be useful in the future, when Wikipedia accepts mind-reading as a reliable source of information... in the meantime, here is a translation of Hirayama's comment NotBartEhrman (talk) 18:41, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    True, I may have misinterpreted the statement of Hirayama—I was given the translation "in all but name", but Tanukisann provides rather the opposite translation below ("in name only"). I'll keep my mouth shut unless & until I find something more substantive!
    Cheers,
    Himaldrmann (talk) 17:55, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    Let me answer that question.
    Neither Mr. Hirayama nor Mr. Oka has stated that Yasuke is a samurai. They only use their own criteria to the extent that "it would be no problem to call Yasuke a samurai."
    Neither of them accepts Thomas Lockley's claims, but they simply leave them alone, knowing that amateurs are free to present their own theories.
    ----
    It would be too long to cover everything about Hirayama, so I will only touch on a small part of it.
    First of all, he does not acknowledge Thomas Lockley's claims at all.
    He's not a historian, and his books are crappy books. That's why when I saw them at the bookstore, I looked at the contents and didn't buy them. I was right.
    https://x.com/HIRAYAMAYUUKAIN/status/1829045749398794645
    He asks people overseas to tell them their definition of the strongest samurai in their opinion.
    https://x.com/HIRAYAMAYUUKAIN/status/1829719809074086118
    People from other countries point out that the definition of samurai is incorrect.
    “It seems to be misunderstood, as it is based on the image of local knights and military officers.”
    https://x.com/HIRAYAMAYUUKAIN/status/1828994698146414598
    He argues that in Japan, the status of samurai has become more vague as time has progressed.
    https://x.com/HIRAYAMAYUUKAIN/status/1829166117912498682
    Hirayama decided to create his own definition of a samurai.
    To tell you the truth, at first I said, Yasuke is a samurai because he was given a house and a sword.There is also an example of Hideyoshi.
    In response to this, many people criticized him, saying, "How can you be so definitive when there is no definition of a samurai?" He had been blocking people he didn't like, but it became too much of a bother, so he seemed to think, "If there is no definition, I'll just make one."
    As a result of his own definition, he seems to have come to the conclusion that Yasuke cannot be recognized as a samurai（武士）, but that they can be recognized as the lowest rank of samurai（侍） in name only.
    https://x.com/HIRAYAMAYUUKAIN/status/1828998721578631584
    https://x.com/HIRAYAMAYUUKAIN/status/1829005623687778320
    https://x.com/HIRAYAMAYUUKAIN/status/1814356500326035650
    He points out that there may be problems with Mr. Kaneko's claims.
    “Did Gyuichi Ota have access to the Ietada Diary?”
    Even among experts, there is a lack of sufficient research, so it can be seen that opinions vary widely.
    https://x.com/HIRAYAMAYUUKAIN/status/1828695863126114536
    ----
    As for Oka Mihoko, I haven't been able to follow all of her arguments, so I don't know if the content will be what you want.
    Once she has said what she wanted to say, she says "That's it" and ends her activities. But then a few days later, she thinks of something else to say, so she starts speaking again, and ends it again. She keeps repeating this cycle.
    I wonder if this account was really created by her? It would be troubling if it was an impersonation.
    Her story is much longer than Mr. Hirayama's, so I will only highlight the important parts.
    She does not acknowledge Thomas Lockley's claims at all.
    "In today's history studies, even if an amateur makes a bizarre remark about a minor phenomenon in Japanese history, it is considered part of historical practice, and when a professional criticizes it, he or she is called uncouth or bullying the weak."
    https://x.com/mei_gang30266/status/1813579715657204141
    I do not agree with Mr. Lockley's reasoning regarding Yasuke after the Honnoji Incident.The book contains the result of a compromise between both parties.
    https://x.com/mei_gang30266/status/1813130354854928663
    "In academic tradition, it is considered vulgar to dismiss or ignore the value of a research effort because you disagree with the theory."
    https://x.com/mei_gang30266/status/1813132392900731072
    "I consider Lockley's books, both in Japanese and English, to be historical reading material and not academic research."
    https://x.com/mei_gang30266/status/1815156183478735215
    She didn't create a definition for samurai. She decided to answer using only circumstantial evidence and her own intuition.
    It is generally recognized in Japanese history research that the definition of samurai during the Sengoku period is vague.
    If I fought with my master to the end with a sword, I think I can call myself a samurai.
    "There's no need to dramatize it too much. I want to say that he was as he was and was a rare person."
    https://x.com/mei_gang30266/status/1814272582222557241 Tanukisann (talk) 17:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    Thanks for this extensive overview! It's very handy to have someone who actually speaks Japanese, heh.
    Himaldrmann (talk) 17:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
    I speak Japanese as well, and Tanukisann is incorrect with this.
    Not only does Yu Hirayama say that Yasuke is a samurai, but he says so very bluntly[17].

    It seems like there's a lot of talk about Yasuke, a black man who served Oda Nobunaga. There are very few historical documents about him, but there's no doubt that he was a samurai who served Nobunaga. Regardless of one's social status, if one's master promoted one to the rank of "samurai," one could become one in medieval (warring states) society.

    Symphony Regalia (talk) 11:00, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
    Thank you for this (& your other responses)—it appears I was incorrect! I'm removing my vote, since I evidently don't know enough to be sure of even getting my quotes right, heh.
    Cheers,
    Himaldrmann (talk) 12:56, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
    Oh my goodness.
    I looked it up and you're right.
    I guess I'm tired. I'm going to rest for a while. Tanukisann (talk) 17:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
    I think this discussion is about what the secondary sources are saying, not about NPOV, or even WEIGHT. By making it about NPOV, you aren’t leaving room open for discussion. I think that if you focus on Consensus building and trying to convince people based on their concerns, then you have a chance of being successful. By repeatedly listing the arguments that others have told you they find unconvincing, you come across as not listening. WP:LISTEN Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    Your argument doesn't make any sense to me, on the one hand you are saying, there is a book thats reliability is dubious (Thomas Lockley's book), and on the other hand you are saying that there is an an Enyclopedia Article by Thomas Lockley which self-admits that the claim is disputed, so according to your logic, we are to believe that Lockley's statement that "the claim is disputed" is reliable and DUE for inclusion?? Seems like to me if you are arguing Lockley's reliability as "dubious", then that logic should apply equally to both the book and the encyclopedia article. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:37, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
    I believe for context it is important to note that Lockley has a pop history book in addition to peer reviewed publishing on the subject which appear in other article collections. The Encyclopedia Britannica entry was originally done by a writer who wrote the original version of the article off of Lockley's pop history book uncritically taking it at face value. After the dumpster fire related to AC Shadows and the finger pointing at Lockley by many online, Britannica launched an editorial commission to redo the page in a much higher quality process whereby an editor who is a scholar a relevant field reviews a new version of the article written by a scholar on the topic (in this case they presumably chose Lockley as the primary person writing specifically on Yasuke). Encyclopedic articles should be used with caution, and Britannica taken on a case by case issue, but on this specific issue it is clearly a source worth citing. Relm (talk) 12:09, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
    A book that has ``arguments that are debated is ``Tsunagu Japanese History.
    It's a peer-reviewed paper, so I think it's safe to trust it to some extent.
    Mihoko Oka is assisted by Mr. Lockley in her work, and Ms. Oka's husband reviews Lockley's new book.They are people with vested interests, but I'm sure they will do their best to check it out.
    Britannica says that a panel of experts conducted a fact check, but the person who wrote the content was Lockley Thomas himself, who started the problem.
    Although his book bills itself as a nonfiction academic work, he admits that it actually contains fiction. Media interviews include things that even Japanese experts have never heard of.
    I think you should be careful when handling it.
    It would be fine if the content was similar to the content created for Japanese in ``Tsunagu Japanese History, but if an article is written with content similar to the content of ``African Samurai, it is dangerous to trust it. Tanukisann (talk) 17:46, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
    Your argument doesn't make any sense to me, on the one hand you are saying, there is a book thats reliability is dubious (Thomas Lockley's book), and on the other hand you are saying that there is an an Enyclopedia Article by Thomas Lockley which self-admits that the claim is disputed, so according to your logic, we are to believe that Lockley's statement that "the claim is disputed" is reliable and DUE for inclusion??
    If you mean me, then the answer is no. The Lockley book was determined by consensus to be generally unreliable because it did not undergo any factchecking process, apparently, and engaged in speculative narration and was reviewed unfavorably by an academic reviewer and was a work of popular history. However, the same consensus said that Lockley as a whole isn't unreliable and that his more academic work can be considered reliable. Since the Encyclopedia Britannica has been deemed reliable by others because it is factchecked by the Encyclopedia Britannica editorial board, we shouldn't cherrypick what the encyclopedia says if we're going to use it as a source. Using the encyclopedia article to support the statement that Yasuke is a samurai, but ignore the part of the article that says Yasuke's status as a samurai is disputed isn't WP:NPOV.
    If editors do not want to note that the Lockley Britannica article says the claim is disputed, then the Britannica article shouldn't be used at all imho. Brocade River Poems 05:27, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    The issue is that it is unclear where the dispute is from to just state it is disputed and that Lockley contrasts it to an assertion thatL: "Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians to be the first recorded “samurai” of foreign birth, although this has been disputed by some people."
    There is no way to identify who 'some people' refers to here. If one can point to criticism of the claim from other scholars has been done then those should be attributed. If one argues that this 'some people' must refer to 'some historians' due to the earlier part in the sentence, then it should only be presented here in that same context of stating that the common view of Japanese Historians is that Yasuke was a "samurai".
    I agree that the source shouldn't be cherry picked, I would just prefer that the actual dispute be identified (see my other reply here for more detail on how that might look). Relm (talk) 08:34, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    I caught a cold today So I guess I haven't been feeling well lately. Let's leave that aside.
    I think everyone is free to think that Yasuke is a samurai.
    I think everyone is free to think that Yasuke is not a samurai.
    It hasn't been decided yet, so it doesn't matter which one.
    However, if you state clearly in the wikipedia article that Yasuke is or is not a samurai, you are fixing something that has not been determined yet.
    That's why I think it's best to say, "I don't know." I think it would be a good idea to let each person who reads the article decide whether Yasuke is a samurai or not.
    Mihoko Oka's words listed above.
    "In today's history studies, even if an amateur makes a bizarre remark about a minor phenomenon in Japanese history, it is considered part of historical practice, and when a professional criticizes it, he or she is called uncouth or bullying the weak."
    It is academic etiquette to not explicitly deny something that an amateur has come up with, even if you have something to think about.
    Not everyone who doesn't voice opposing opinions is necessarily positive. If you don't understand that there are people who don't voice opposing opinions but are still negative, you won't understand this statement. This isn't just something that can be said about academia, but about Japanese people as a whole.
    與那覇潤
    https://note.com/yonahajun/n/n0074a95cf5b0
    Mr. Goza Yuichi's contribution provides a clear explanation of "how much can be said about Yasuke" based on the remaining historical documents.
    It seems that there are an increasing number of historians on Twitter who are stepping forward without being asked, and who are in fact damaging the reputation of empirical historiography.
    （Although their names are not mentioned, they are Hirayama Yu and Oka Mihoko.）
    The issue is that Thomas Lockley, an associate professor at Nihon University from the UK, introduced Yasuke to the world under the name "African Samurai", so the important thing is "the image that comes to mind when Westerners hear the word 'Samurai'". Well, usually it's a military commander like the one played by Ken Watanabe in the movie "The Last Samurai" (2003).
    No one is going to hear about how a samurai is defined in a Japanese historical society, where 99% of the members are Japanese.
    People overseas are asking, "Did Yasuke's true identity match the global standard image of a samurai?" but they're not looking for a super-domestic answer like, "In research on samurai in medieval Japanese history..."
    The trend of political correctness has been going on in the West for a long time, and there is a high demand for stories that encourage marginalized minorities.They have been sought after as material for politically correct entertainment. However, the material is gradually running out, and if you were to make a story about, for example, "black soldiers who fought bravely in America's foreign wars," there is a risk that it would no longer be politically correct for a different reason.
    From a Westerner's point of view, moving the setting to the Far East in the distant past and saying "There were black people in Samurai too!" is the best material for being politically correct without any aftereffects. However, as a result, if an image of their own country's past is circulated that is completely different from reality, it will be a bit of a problem for Japanese people.
    渡邊大門
    https://news.livedoor.com/article/detail/27073006/
    Daimon Watanabe spoke about Japan's slavery system in a video titled "Thinking about not only Yasuke and black slaves, but also Japanese slaves" on his YouTube channel. Watanabe began by asserting that "it is probably a mistake to say that there were many black slaves in Japan because there are no records" in response to the topic of black slaves, which has been increasingly covered in online news.
    "If we were to bring them from Africa through Europe to Japan, the food costs, shipping costs, and the risk of getting sick would be high, making it unviable as a commercial transaction."
    Watanabe also mentioned Yasuke, a black samurai who is said to have served Nobunaga, saying, "There are few primary historical documents, so we don't know if Yasuke was a samurai or not," and expressed the view that Nobunaga was "a person who liked new things," so he may have found Yasuke interesting and kept him by his side.
    In concluding the video, Watanabe reiterated that "it is a mistake to say that there were many black slaves in Japan because there is no historical evidence to back this up," and concluded by saying, "Whether Yasuke was a samurai is a topic for future study." Tanukisann (talk) 12:48, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    But come to think of it, we may not have been debating whether or not Yasuke, as Thomas Lockley puts it, was a samurai.If a space is created, discussion can take place and there is room for discussion.
    Is there anyone out there other than Thomas Lockley who keeps insisting and researching that Yasuke was a samurai?
    No one did any research at all because there was no material, so when the book was published there were very few people who opposed it. It was only after the uproar grew that experts began to voice their opinions.
    Now that someone has appeared to discuss the matter, there is finally room for debate. Tanukisann (talk) 13:49, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    Thank you for contributing. The links to tweets are especially helpful as I am not on twitter. I get the impression that your English isn’t perfect. I don’t mean this as a criticism, but it may lead to some misunderstanding. If you are using translation software some meaning can be lost.
    It seems that most academics, in both Japan and the West believe that it is okay to call Yasuke a samurai, although there are those who wouldn’t call anyone in the Sengoku period a samurai. This is a difference in term preference. Similarly, some are less confident that he is a samurai. This is made difficult because historians are unsure what a samurai is, but also translate multiple Japanese words to samurai. Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    Frankly, There is no way to identify who 'some people' refers to here. If one can point to criticism of the claim from other scholars has been done then those should be attributed, there is no need to identify who 'some people' are. The entry for inclusion in Wikipedia isn't that the source must identify what its sources are, or that the source must state unequivocally who is making the dispute. If the source says it is disputed, why should we take at face-value that the source supports the statement that Yasuke is a samurai but ignore the source's face-value acknowledgement of dispute? Choosing not to acknowledge that the source says the claim is disputed just because the source author uses weasel words (both in his declaration that it is "commonly believed" by Japanese historians despite the fact that there is next to no publications in Japanese asserting this claim until recent statements by historians online that say more or less "if the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript is accurate, Yasuke would be a samurai", noting that it is conditional on the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript's being accurate) doesn't mean we should ignore the disputed statement if we're using its statement of support. The fact of the matter is that the article acknowledges that the claim is disputed, and if we're going to use the Encyclopedia Britannica we cannot well just cherrypick which weasel worded declaration is acceptable to use and exclude the other. We are only supposed to represent what the sources themself say.
    Which, again. Far better to not use the encyclopedia article at all if we're going to dismiss the claim that it is disputed for using "weasel words", because it also uses weasel words to describe the support of the claim. By the by, I agree with your statement above re: Kaneko and Goza and representing the claim. The purpose of this RfC was not to say definitively "Yasuke was not a samurai", the point of the RfC was to change the consensus from "Yasuke was definitively a samurai" so that editors will stop reverting every attempt to improve the article while citing the prior RfC.
    • Lopez-Vera uses the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript to support Yasuke being a samurai.
    • Hirayama Yu has said if the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript's description is accurate, Yasuke is a samurai.
    • Lockley on Britannica has said that the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript is the evidence to support this claim.
    • Hiraku Kaneko's book expresses that the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript could potentially be inauthentic.
    • Yuichi Goza's interview has expressed that the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript could potentially be inauthentic.
    The majority of the tertiary sources listed such as CNN, The Smithsonian, etc. rely on Lockley as their source, and Lockley is relying on the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript. We cannot say definitively in the article "Yasuke is a samurai, because this document says he was given a sword, a stipend, and a house" without attribution or acknowledging that some historians believe that the document could be inauthentic. For instance, the article uses Britannica to support According to historians, this was the equivalent of "the bestowing of warrior or 'samurai' rank" during this period in the lead, or in a prior dif, to definitively declare that Yasuke is a samurai because he was given x, y, and z. This content should probably be moved to the body of the article and criticism and discussion about the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript placed alongside it because in the section of the Britannica article being cited, Lockley is specifically saying that the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript is where the claim that Yasuke was a samurai originates in the very next sentence. However, any attempt to remove any mention of samurai-ness from the lead has resulted in a reversion citing the prior-RfC. Brocade River Poems 22:26, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    "However, any attempt to remove any mention of samurai-ness from the lead has resulted in a reversion citing the prior-RfC"
    I think the problem is less to do with the prior RfC as with WP:DISRUPTIVE editing. I don’t think it is normal that we have to have an RfC to decide everything, or that we have this many reverts, especially with little discussion. I think it might take a few edits to get to a version of the article that incorporates the source criticism well, but if there are always reverts after the first change, then there is no progress. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:00, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
    This is my view on the Encyclopedia Britannica article:
    Due to his favor with Nobunaga and presence at his side in at least one battle, Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians to be the first recorded “samurai” of foreign birth, although this has been disputed by some people.
    And then further down in the article, Lockley documents where the claim that Yasuke was a samurai originates from.

    In an unpublished but extant document from about this time, Ōta states that Nobunaga made Yasuke a vassal, giving him a house, servants, a sword, and a stipend. During this period, the definition of samurai was ambiguous, but historians think that this would contemporaneously have been seen as the bestowing of warrior or “samurai” rank. This is where the claim that Yasuke was a samurai originates.

    What I don't see is where Lockley documents in the article where the claim - "disputed by some people" - originates from. Seems like to me if there is any cherry-picking going on here, it's from those editors who want to include those four words - "disputed by some people". I don't believe we should be trying to dress those four words up as if something meaningful has been said, when in fact only a vague and ambiguous claim has been asserted. I'm not seeing any compelling argument at to why we should give any WEIGHT to a vague and ambiguous claim that consists of four words. Isaidnoway (talk) 13:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    I didn't intend to collect any convenient opinions.
    As far as I know, I think the document that contains it is page 32 of ``つなぐ世界史 2.
    Don't get me wrong, this is not a textbook. This is a collection of papers contributed by various people.
    This is a peer-reviewed document. Mihoko Oka, one of the reviewers, said that Thomas Lockley is an amateur, so even if he writes strange things, he has never denied the content. She considers Lockley's paper not a research document but a historical novel. However, she says that it was created through mutual compromise, such as changing parts of Yasuke's actions that were unacceptable after the Honnoji Incident.
    When Oka joined the editing team, it had already been decided that Rockley would contribute.
    https://x.com/mei_gang30266/status/1813130354854928663
    https://x.com/mei_gang30266/status/1813132392900731072
    https://x.com/mei_gang30266/status/1813134117393023214
    https://x.com/mei_gang30266/status/1813714544474399183
    https://x.com/mei_gang30266/status/1815153396032397726
    https://x.com/mei_gang30266/status/1815156183478735215
    In this era, the boundaries between samurai and other classes were unclear, and there is debate as to whether Yasuke truly became a "samurai," but at least in his case, it is believed that he was undoubtedly appointed as a vassal of Nobunaga.
    この時代、武士とそれ以外の身分の垣根は曖昧であり、本当に弥助が「サムライ」となったのかについては議論があるものの、少なくともその身一代においては、彼は間違いなく信長の家臣に取り立てられたと考えられている。
    https://www.shimizushoin.co.jp/books/view/763
    https://researchmap.jp/7000004775/published_papers/45900467
    https://x.com/BonpoB/status/1830930503014457375
    https://x.com/2ALlPuM_/status/1817545987487158730
    I think this is the source of Britannica, but I don't know where the content of this paper came from.
    My personal opinion is that this is Thomas Lockley's personal opinion.I think it's best to ask him where the source is. Tanukisann (talk) 15:12, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    I want you to listen to me calmly and not get angry, but this is a Japanese story that happened more than a month ago.
    In his books and interviews aimed at Japanese readers, Thomas Lockley often prefaces his statements by saying that there are objections or that they are hypothetical.In his books and media interviews for foreign countries, he states most of his statements in a definitive manner.
    You looked at Britannica and wondered where the information about the controversy came from, right? This has never happened before in English articles. Yasuke is a legendary samurai and a hero. After Nobunaga committed seppuku, Yasuke was the one who decapitated him, and Yasuke was the one who hid it and protected him. Rockley says.
    Even in the Japanese version, various stories are told, such as the episode in which Yasuke was the one who protected Nobunaga's neck. Even Japanese history experts have never heard of them. But it's not as bad as the English version.
    When the Japanese noticed the situation, they thought:
    What's this?
    Editors of the Japanese Wikipedia began to look into edit histories and media timestamps, and discovered that the source of the information being circulated overseas was likely Thomas Lockley, who had probably written books and papers, edited Wikipedia and Britannica himself, and perhaps promoted his own ideas through propaganda.
    Sometimes his unpublished papers were cited as sources.
    I don't know if the content is true, but he even introduces himself.
    http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?oldid=680634911
    Thomas Lockley creates the information himself and publishes it on Wikipedia and Britannica, the media uses these as sources of information for their coverage, other media, Wikipedia, Britannica etc. use these media as sources of information to develop, and the media then uses these as a basis for their coverage.
    Um, how much more should I write?
    There are arguments and editing battles on Wikipedia. Right here, right now.
    This is the road we have been on for over a month now.
    I wonder if Britannica will be the next battlefield? The editor of the current final version is Thomas Lockley, right?
    How much of what is written can we trust? As we all know, the literature on Yasuke only takes up a few pages of notebooks. Lockley stuffed it with a ton of fabricated stories and published it as a 380-page academic book written in the form of a non-fiction novel, and everyone, readers and the media, believes it.
    There are people here who believe it right now, aren't there? Tanukisann (talk) 16:27, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    Ah, look. It says this. What should we do about this?
    Jul 16, 2024　Article replaced with expert commission.
    The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica
    Thomas Lockley
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Yasuke/additional-info Tanukisann (talk) 16:41, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    The main source is from つなぐ世界史 2, where he also mentions that there is argument, as stated elsewhere.

    In this era, the boundaries between samurai and other classes were unclear, and there is debate as to whether Yasuke truly became a "samurai," but at least in his case, it is believed that he was undoubtedly appointed as a vassal of Nobunaga.

    I repeat this even though it was already mentioned by Tanukisann because it should be noted that he is not simply saying here that there is debate, but also that all we know for certain is that he was a vassal. That is according to Lockley himself. So he himself is giving credence to the debate by saying all we know for certain is that he was appointed as a vassal. Combined with Goza saying that we should be cautious in saying Yasuke was a samurai, this seem like enough to show that Yasuke's true status is not fully clear, and that should be reflected in the article. Of the three most detailed articles dealing with Yasuke's status as samurai, all three of them mention this point. (ie. つなぐ世界史 2, Goza, Britannica) It should also be noted that つなぐ世界史 2 is the only peer reviewed work involved here. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 16:52, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    I think we can put that in the article. It is a peer reviewed article. I think it is important though to remember that Goza said that Yasuke was treated like a samurai, and that the gist of what he says is that Yasuke might not have been expected to fight on a battlefield. I think we should also try and figure out what Hirayama Yu means when he says that Yasuke was probably a "low samurai" but also not a "middle servant" I think that reflects the scholarly consensus of Yasuke. He was a retainer of high enough rank to have a sword etc and be in Nobunaga´s presence. Tinynanorobots (talk) 15:45, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
    I agree with you on the phrase being vague, however:
    If you read the Weasel words policy, you will see that it doesn’t apply to sources, and certain phrases aren’t always weasel words. They are more words to look out for.
    I don’t understand your lipstick on a pig metaphor. You probably didn’t intend it so, but it could come off as a veiled insult. More importantly, I don’t see how it applies to the situation. I think most people reading the article without any external context would assume experts dispute the claim that Yasuke was a samurai. I don’t think the amount of words matters either. If the phrase was shorted just to "is disputed," then the meaning would be clearer.
    A big problem with the sentence is that it is difficult to find any expert that disputes it, this supports interpreting the phrase to refer to laymen. A further problem is that Lockley made a similar claim in his peer reviewed article. Theoretically, he should have cited that claim. Since those that have read his article haven’t pointed to that source, I assume that Lockley didn’t cite that claim. This fits with my understanding of Lockley as a not very good historian, and so I think both instances are mistakes.
    It is also important to know that Regalia Symphony has said on this very page: "Evaluating reliability has nothing to do with the claims within sources. Sources can and will disagree, and it is not the place for editors to determine what is true and not true, otherwise you are elevating Wikipedia to the role of the arbiter of the truth. Reliability evaluation instead focuses on material factors"
    So, according to Regalia, I shouldn’t use my knowledge to interpret sources deemed reliable. This is, I think, where the idea of cherry picking or double standards comes from. I disagree with Regalia´s interpretation of wikipedia policy, so I oppose describing the status as disputed. Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:00, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    I am unsure precisely how many times it must be stated that MOS:WEASEL does not pertain to the contents of the source, but only for writing Wikipedia. We cannot exclude a source for using weasel words. Yes, Lockley states where the claim originates, he does not provide any evidence at all to support that it is commonly believed among Japanese historians.
    Saying that Lockley's article is good enough to accept the vague claim Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians without naming any evidence to support this outside of noting the document where the claim originates, but that the article saying some people dispute this claim is too MOS:WEASEL to be represented is, quite literally, cherrypicking. You're using WP:SYNTH to connect Commonly held by Japanese historians to a passage that says This is where the claim that Yasuke was a samurai originates.
    Stating the origin for the claim that Yasuke is a samurai does not make saying Commonly held by Japanese historians less weasel-worded.
    And again, with extra emphasis
    The guideline does not apply to quotations, which should be faithfully reproduced from the original sources (seeWikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotations). Brocade River Poems 22:35, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    Weasel language within sources is still relevant when it comes to evaluating the weight of unattributed hearsay. If a source is referencing another source when editors need to know what the source is in order to evaluate weight.
    It could be attributed directly to Lockley as a unique opinion with appropriate weight (that is to say, not much), but as it stands a weasel reference to an unattributed "some people" isn't very useful for building an encyclopedia and it doesn't really add to the article. And it certainly can't be used to depict Yasuke's samurai status as contested because as a unique opinion, it would violate NPOV, and also because there is still not a single RS arguing that he was not one. Symphony Regalia (talk) 04:33, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
    I think the issue here is not weasel words, but the lack of collaboration. If we knew who was debating and what they were debating, then it wouldn’t be weasel words and there would be no problem with it. You are right that it would have to be attributed. Tinynanorobots (talk) 08:08, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
    Hey! Isn't this the same thing I was saying earlier—that we have to use our judgement, sometimes, instead of just slavishly counting up "well RSes are saying it, so..."—in my "100 news outlets say Alexander Dumas was pure Swede but all based on a single shaky document & therefore it's clearly sometimes necessary to evaluate sources" hypothetical?
    Himaldrmann (talk) 23:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
    In this case no, because Lockley is unique in his opinion (and thus it lacks weight to begin with even with attribution). It is unattributed hearsay, but if 100 sources were referencing the same unattributed hearsay then that would be different. Symphony Regalia (talk) 22:52, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
    I am unsure precisely how many times it must be stated that MOS:WEASEL does not pertain to the contents of the source, but only for writing Wikipedia. We write Wikipedia based on what the contents of sources say, and if the source uses weasel language like "some people", then yes, best practice according to MOS is to exclude that weasel crap. Isaidnoway (talk) 21:48, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
    Consider that the issue with weasel language is that it is "aimed at creating an impression that something specific and meaningful has been said, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated" and that it amounts to "vague attribution, where a statement is dressed with authority, yet has no substantial basis." This should not be a concern in the case of Lockley as he is not advocating for the opinion that he is mentioning when he says 'there is debate as to whether Yasuke truly became a "samurai"' (using the other quote as an example). That is, there is no reason to suspect that Lockley intends to "dress with authority" or "create an impression" of the idea that there is debate as to whether Yasuke truly became a samurai, as if anything he would have the opposite motivation being a proponent of the claim that he says there is debate about. In terms of our actual potential mention of this debate in the article, we can cite Goza directly, so there would be no issue in terms of MOS:WEASEL as well. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 22:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
    That seems sort of like a reason to do the exact opposite ("we write Wiki content as the sources say it" → "the sources use these words" → ..."therefore we shouldn't use those words"...?).
    Regardless, though, if you want to go by the book, rules-as-written—well, the rules say MOS:WEASEL doesn't apply in this case. If you want to go with case-by-case, what-seems-reasonable, rules-are-just-guidelines—well, I think you'd have to argue it beyond citing MOS:WEASEL, right?
    or something I dunno I'm depressed don't mind me
    Himaldrmann (talk) 22:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
    I am aware of the problems with Lockley´s work, but the Britannica article is still the best we have. In the last RfC it was said that some sources could be reliable for some things and unreliable for others. This contradicts the idea that we have to accept everything a "reliable source" claims. We have to weigh claims in a source against other sources, secondary, tertiary and primary. Yes, even primary, as long as it isn’t OR, can be used. Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:15, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
    I remember saying this a long time ago, but I've been using translation sites for a long time. I was taught everyday English conversation when I was a student, but since I haven't used it for a while, I've forgotten it. Before posting, I convert from Japanese to English, and then from English to Japanese to confirm that the content has not changed significantly, but it is difficult to match 100%. I apologize if it's hard to read.
    It is true that Mihoko Oka reviewed a paper by Thomas Lockley. She doesn't deny its contents. The reason is that the author, Lockley, is an amateur, not because he agrees with the content.
    In other words, there are two types of peer review in Japanese history.
    The first is to check whether the content is actually correct and whether there are any academic problems. This is probably what most people are thinking of.
    The second is to acknowledge that there are people who make such claims as experts about the hypotheses and ideas that a person has made. It doesn't matter whether they are right or wrong. As a result of research, they may or may not be accepted.
    The review of Lockley's paper is definitely the second one.
    I am not completely refusing to cite Britannica's content on Wikipedia. However, you will have to do this with great care.
    The reason is simple. The content written in Britannica is a mixture of reliable content written in documents and content based on Lockley's hypotheses and imagination.
    A while ago, there was a discussion that ``Britannica states that among the things given to Yasuke there was a servant, but this is not in the document and may be Lockley's personal idea. did. Ultimately, it was concluded that this was attributed to Lockley.
    Yes, this is it. Before adopting Britannica's content on Wikipedia, you should check each one.
    Finally, I would like to answer from a Japanese perspective why there are no experts who deny the opinion that Yasuke was a samurai.
    The reason is simple: we don't know.
    There is a possibility that Yasuke was a samurai. It's also possible that he isn't a samurai. I don't know the right answer. There are too few materials to make a judgment.
    In such cases, Japanese people say, ``I don't know, and hold their attitude. They rarely express their opinions clearly. In this state, although I don't deny it, I don't agree with it either. It is a mistake to think that just because there is no negative opinion, that everyone is in favor of it.
    A few experts, such as Lockley and Hirakawa, believe that Yasuke was a samurai, but most other experts have reserved their position or are silent, citing a lack of evidence to be too limited to make a judgment.
    If I were to write about the current situation, I think it would be like this. Tanukisann (talk) 13:20, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Some observations from an outsider: It seems like the reason for doubt is a) the paucity of records, and b) the ambiguity of the meaning of “samurai” at the time, more than a genuine mistrust of the idea that he was a samurai? Correct me if I am wrong; I’m just trying to get a reasonable picture of the debate. Further, (to those who prefer to signpost doubt on the veracity of the term) it still seems like “samurai” is a reasonable shorthand and can be used safely through most of the article, and even the lead, without needing to be signposted? And yet (addressed to those who are certain of the term), it seems irresponsible to ignore the comments in the Lockley Brittanica article. Could we not make some mention at some point in the article, addressing Lockley’s statements, with WP:INTEXT attributions? — HTGS (talk) 23:43, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
    I agree with your reasons for doubt. I believe some editors also doubt some of the sources, or at least interpret the experts as doubting the sources. I am sceptical of this, because the translations I have read seem to be typical source criticism that points out potential problems with the source, but doesn’t come to a definite conclusion.
    I think the term samurai can be used, but where and how often is an open question. The previous RfC has been cited in a way that inhibits discussion about how exactly Yasuke is depicted as a samurai. There is literature that suggests bushi is the more proper term in general, but then uses samurai. So that isn’t clear either. There needs to be discussion about it, but if the last RfC froze the status of Yasuke to simply samurai, that can’t happen. Tinynanorobots (talk) 08:25, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
    The previous RfC was done excellently in my opinion. The main issue is that people who are convinced he isn't one, because they just know, or because they read it as a part of a culture war over a video game[18], are pushing a POV at complete odds with essentially all reliable sourcing on Yasuke. The Yasuke article saw an absurd amount of vandalism when said video game trailer came out and if anything I think general sanctions (not unlike Gamergate sanctions) (context) would be potentially appropriate to prevent continued disruption. Symphony Regalia (talk) 02:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
    >The main issue is that people who are convinced he isn't one, because they just know, or because they read it as a part of a culture war over a video game
    I was originally drawn to this subject when I saw the African Samurai discussion on RSN after opening some unrelated discussions there. I read through a lot of that discussion and saw that there was an academic text published by Lockley that had not yet been viewed but had been purchased and was on it's way. 5 days later when an editor responded to one of my discussions I had opened[19] I then took another look at the Lockley thread and saw that the work had been posted here, and that it's contents contained the line quoted above (which I had also read in a separate link also posted there, and which I had only read this second time visiting the thread). [20] I did not come here to fight a war over Assassin's Creed, a game which I have never played (any of the series). Obviously I was aware of the controversy but I didn't care about it until I read that thread as described above. Please do not make up reasons that other editors have a different position than you and read WP:GF. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 02:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
    Similarly to J2UDY, I am not convinced he isn't one. Continued assertions that editors are acting based on personal opinion, or acting in bad faith, are not a substitute for engaging with those editors' points; and are preventative of formation of a policy based consensus. Rotary Engine talk 12:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
    I created the RfC because the previous RfC is being used as a justification to revert many good faith attempts to edit the article and would doubtless be used to remove any mention of the fact that the Sonkeikaku Bunko manuscript passage is stated by some sources to be potentially inauthentic. It is vaguely absurd that we cite Kaneko's book for the passage without so much as mentioning that Kaneko raises the possibility that the passage in question was added in the 1700s. It is not a suggestion of whether the term "samurai" can be used, but it is a matter of not being allowed to define how samurai is being used or to note that the entire foundation of the claim is from a potentially inauthentic passage that was added during transcription. Brocade River Poems 01:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
    Speculation on when something was added, is just that, speculation. Kaneko does not actually present a conclusion, and even if one were presented it would be a minority view. Such a thing can not be used to push a POV at complete odds with essentially all reliable sourcing on Yasuke to create a WP:FALSEBALANCE. In terms of topic it would also probably be more appropriate for the Shinchō_Kōki article. Symphony Regalia (talk) 02:31, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
    Yeah I'm just going to say for the record here since you keep bringing up WP:FALSEBALANCE and mentioning that Kaneko is speculating, to the point that you bolded "speculative history" in your dissent, that a historian speculating something is not equivalent to speculative history. Speculative history, as it is linked in that article, goes to a very specific type of pseudoscience that attempts to distort or misrepresent the historical record, often by employing methods resembling those used in scholarly historical research. Hiraku Kaneko is a highly regarded historian and accusing him of producing speculative history is borderline libelous. Speculative history is stuff like the lost cause, holocaust denial, etc. Brocade River Poems 22:46, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment on the RfC. Honestly, this thing is a mess. Between the general inability of participants of being succint and getting to the point or stopping themselves from replying to everything and everyone they disagree with, resulting in a massive amount of WP:BLUDGEONING, the lack of structure (which is something the previous RfC was already criticized for) where basically almost no one !voted due to not defining proper subsections, either soon enough or participants refusing to abide by them, resulting in massive amount of "discussion" happening everywhere at once and a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality permeating every part of this talk page, I'm not surprised almost no one who wasn't already involved joined this RfC.
If I hadn't been myself involved on this talkpage, I'd be of a mind to close this RfC and simply tell people to do it again, properly this time and I don't envy whoever will actually have to waddle through this swamp in an attempt to extract a consensus out of this absolute mess. Yvan Part (talk) 01:05, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
In regards to the lack of structure, I used a template provided by Wikipedia that was described as For a question that has a "yes" or "no" answer, and people known to support each of the sides, then this side-by-side approach can offer a balanced view. This format is good for writing a neutral question on a contentious or complex issue by presenting both sides. Other editors chose not to adhere to it. At this juncture I wash my hands of this madness and move on to saner pastures. Brocade River Poems 01:40, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
I don’t think I’ve ever seen that format used properly; but that wasn’t for you to know beforehand. It’s a shame how much mud back and forth there is, because everyone does seem to be discussing in good faith, they just insist on doing so in such a protracted form that it is beyond me to find the important points among the piles of prose. Even the table which should be a concise summary of the pros and contras is hard to read—the right hand side even includes the same list of sources twice for some reason, while linking them in neither list... — HTGS (talk) 04:59, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
Maybe closing it is probably the best solutiion if everyone agree. I think that the other RfC set a bad example for this one. The consensus that came out of the last one wasn’t based so much on the question asked, but on the comments. That combined with the broad implementation of it, I realize now, made me feel like I had to comment to prevent a consensus that would make editing even more difficult.
Considering the reason given for this RfC is the last RfC being used to justify reverts, it seems like the problem is a lack of consensus building and compromise. If the last RfC seems to have made things worse, then I don’t think a new one will solve it, unless editors are open to compromise. Tinynanorobots (talk) 08:03, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
  •  Comment: Been observing this RfC for a bit and here's my honest thoughts. This is not to assert that Yasuke's status is controversial, but there is absolutely weight to add the following sentence to the lede after mentioning the sword, stipend, etc...: Historians believe this was the equivalent to "the bestowing of warrior or 'samurai' rank" during this period. (with the reference to Lockley Britannica). This sentence does not reject the idea that he is a samurai. Also, it was previously in the lede before being removed by Symphony Regalia here: diff
Several historians say Yasuke was a samurai, including the perspective that he was a samurai because of the murky definition of the term during this period and the various tasks assigned to him and the fuchi ("stipend", often assumed to be a monetary stipend). Given that Yasuke's status is one of the main things that makes him notable, the aforementioned sentence should be in the lede, because it is a part of his status. It is not WP:FALSEBALANCE to have this sentence in the lede, as the mere presence of this sentence does not contradict those historian's viewpoints. And it is not WP:UNDUE for the lede because the status of Yasuke is one of the main things that make his notable, and this sentence elucidates the notability in an informative, extremely brief fashion apropos of the lede. It is not accessory information, rather it is essential to his status. Historians use those details to give evidence that Yasuke was a samurai, so the aforementioned sentence should be present to indicate that. Otherwise the article just has those details floating in the lede without much purpose.
A concern of mine is that because BrocadeRiverPoems' question at the opening of this RfC may get struck down by some editors, then the outcome of this RfC will be used to herdlessly strike down other similar, but not identical, discussions in the future. Which would be inappropriate. Green Caffeine (talk) 14:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
edit: sorry, I'm on mobile and got confused perusing older versions of the article when typing out my response on my phone. Looks like the sentence I've mentioned is present already. Sorry to spread misinformation. Overall, I support the intent of this rfc. It's just a matter of wordsmithing and dialing in the phraseology. Green Caffeine (talk) 16:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
I concede that my wording is probably not optimal, but the intention of the RfC was to stop the stonewalling which had been occurring as many good-faith attempts to improve the article were being dismissed out of hand and reverterd as violating the previous RfC. Brocade River Poems 22:27, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment. Based on some of the discussion here, it seems that the question "Should the article represent Yasuke's samurai status as debated?" might be interpreted differently by different editors. To my understanding, this question is not asking if we should say that some historians believe that Yasuke is not a Samurai. For the purposes of this question, expressing uncertainty is also considered debating his status. (For example, that Yasuke's true status cannot be determined, or that there is not enough information.) This is more clear if you read the comment by Brocade River Poems in the relevant talk page archive where this new RfC mainly originates from:

it feels prudent to include that a Japanese historian who is an expert on Sengoku Japan has stated that they believe Yasuke is a samurai, just as it is also prudent to include Goza's statement that the only evidence that supports this statement is the Sonkeikaku Bunko version and that we should use caution. That gives a source that is in support of, and a support which has expressed caution. Those two sources together demonstrate that there is a contention or debate among Japanese academics as to whether Yasuke was or was not a samurai in terms which are clear and not speculative (emphasis added)

This same idea is repeated again later on that page. I can see that it may be difficult to understand the intention of this RfC if you have not read the relevant recent talk page discussions. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 20:30, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I would like to leave the information I know in case the discussion starts again.
First of all, someone has collected materials written about Yasuke, so I would like to share them.
https://sleepcratic-republic.hatenablog.com/entry/2024/07/30/225016
There are multiple versions of "Shinchō Kōki," but they are still secondary sources that compile information about Oda Nobunaga. At that time, each copy was copied by hand using paper and a brush, so each copy had a slightly different content. Therefore, research is conducted by combining multiple versions, or other sources, rather than just one.
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/expert/articles/9c15bcbfd4bdd1e22e5d672e83cedf1b247b58e1
Only 尊経閣文庫 states that Yasuke was given a private residence and other assets. This book has been passed down in the Maeda family, but the original was lost and the only one that remains is a copy. This version includes not only Yasuke's story but also other descriptions not found in other manuscripts. It is thought that either various stories were added when this copy was made, or that it is the oldest remaining document that contains content that was omitted in other versions. It's not publicly available, so the only way to find out what it's about is to get another book that contains it. We use Mr. Kaneko's books.
Even experts have not come to a conclusion as to whether the additions were made when the book was transcribed, or whether it is the oldest content remaining.
池田 Ikeda
https://ousar.lib.okayama-u.ac.jp/ikedake/komonjo/ja
町田 Machida
https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1920322/1/60
What is in the wiki source is the content of a book published in the Meiji era based on this Machida.
http://ja.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%BF%A1%E9%95%B7%E5%85%AC%E8%A8%98
It's true that Yasuke served Nobunaga. So, Japanese history experts do not deny the possibility that Yasuke was a samurai. However, many experts do not say that he was a samurai. The reason is that no matter what material you look at, it is not clearly written that he was a samurai. Therefore, most Japanese history specialists are of one of two opinions. Except for silence.
  • Yasuke is a samurai. The reasons for this thinking vary from person to person.
  • It is unclear whether Yasuke was a samurai or not, as there is too little documentation.
They are experts and don't want to spread false information. You may be wondering why there is no opinion that Yasuke is not a samurai. It's true that Nobunaga hired Yasuke, so there's always the possibility that he was a samurai. It's also possible that he's not a samurai. Even experts can't say for sure, so how can we, amateurs, be able to say for sure?
It is only on this one point of disagreement that the debate can be said to be taking place.
In the Encyclopedia Britannica, yasuke is clearly written as samurai. This is because the author is Thomas Lockley, who clearly claims that Yasuke is a samurai. I don't know the composition of Britannica's expert committee, but if there are few or no Japanese members, it is possible that they are influenced by Rockley. If it had been a different author, they might have written that they were not sure whether Yasuke was a samurai or not. Tanukisann (talk) 16:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
The ethnic makeup of the editorial commission by Britannica is not relevant to it's quality as a source. Only the academic makeup (fields of research) matter. I am growing increasingly concerned about your focus on race and ethnicity given your previous statements such as:
and:
This sort of language does not belong on Wikipedia. Relm (talk) 13:23, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
First of all, I admit that my critical tone was harsh. There is no excuse for that.
I am not particularly focusing on race and ethnicity. It is true that criticism of critical attitudes towards white people has arisen within Japan, starting with the historical fabrication perpetrated by Thomas Lockley. The person I spoke harshly to did not insist on academic grounds, but instead made a forceful demand that we accept something that has already been adopted by many media outlets, so this was a measure in response to that. I do not think that everyone here is like that. If it's someone you're having a normal conversation with, you'll respond accordingly.
Symphony Regalia also listed a lot of media in the Japanese version, trying to force the editing to acknowledge that Yasuke is a samurai because so many of Lockley's claims have been adopted.
I was getting annoyed with Symphony Regalia.
He was recently banned indefinitely for attempting to use multiple accounts to forcefully edit the Japanese version.
http://ja.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:%E6%8A%95%E7%A8%BF%E3%83%96%E3%83%AD%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E4%BE%9D%E9%A0%BC/Symphony_Regalia%E3%81%BB%E3%81%8B
I won't be annoyed anymore, and if you all would just write decent articles based on reference material, I wouldn't come here anymore.
There are a lot of Japanese people who are knowledgeable about the Sengoku period. I think many people first became interested in it through games and other things, but those who become interested will go on to read various documents. Therefore, if you write something strange, it will be noticed right away. This time, it took me a while to notice because Yasuke was so little known and his behavior and speech differed in Japanese and English.
Well, I wish you all the best in your future Wikipedian endeavors. Tanukisann (talk) 18:03, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
I have never used multiple accounts. Of the socks I've seen on Japanese wikipedia, they are mostly newly created accounts by nettouyo from 2ch pushing the fringe theory that Yasuke was not a samurai.
They are motivated not by reliable sources, which are very clear in regards to Yasuke being a samurai, but racial views and xenophobia. Not coincidentally the same racial views you have demonstrated here multiple times. Symphony Regalia (talk) 23:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Final Comment. I just want to give a brief history to contextualize what brought this RfC about to begin with. I made an edit adding Hirayama Yu's Tweet Special:Diff/1237845246, Special:Diff/1237845246 that edit was reverted, I reverted back Special:Diff/1237846490, they reverted Special:Diff/1237849580, and I reverted Special:Diff/1237850766. I then self-reverted Special:Diff/1237852447 per discussion. The discussion in question began here Special:Diff/1237851174. After some discussion, I posted Special:Diff/1237866505 as another user had said it wouldn't be NPOV to include Hirayama's SPS without including Goza, where I said the exact nature of what the article should represent should probably be decided by a new RfC taking into account the information that has come forth since the previous RfC, another editor agrees Special:Diff/1237866505, and the editor who I was engaged in a dispute with agreed Special:Diff/1237869060, third editor suggests waiting a month for the RfC Special:Diff/1237877171. This occurred July 31st. On September 2nd, I created this RfC. WP:DR#RfCs RfCs can be used when there is a content-related dispute, or simply to get input from other editors before making a change. I self-reverted my edit on the understanding that the person who I was in a dispute with at the time had agreed to an RfC, and then it was suggested that the RfC should be put off, so it was put off. I was following through on what was discussed from my dispute in July. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 13:31, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Refactoring?

If there are no objections, I could try to adjust the layout of this RfC in line with WP:REFACTOR. Many editors have noted that the RfC is chaotic and hard to follow. Obviously without removing any comments or !votes, I could move them and add bulleted lists and headings (e.g., "Comment", "Replies to XY's !vote", etc.) to make the RfC more structured and increase readability. I would follow the example of this long and controversial RfC. Do you think it's worth a try? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 20:46, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking the same. I think it may be better to put the comments in a collapsible table (see Help:Collapsing) instead of moving them. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 20:52, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
This may be a bit harsh if the comments are on topic. But if they are confined to the "Discussion" section of the RfC, with appropriate headings and anchors, the end result might be clear enough for other editors to join the RfC without being overwhelmed by excessive comments. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 20:56, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
...but perhaps you're right. Also collapse boxes could achieve a good result. I have no strong preference on this. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 21:05, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
I've refactored the RfC in my sandbox. Please check it here. I ran it through Gemini, which confirmed that no comments were removed, so it should be fine. If there are no objections, I plan to move it to this page and replace the old, messy version, with the new one. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:13, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Looks good except the two polls in "General discussion" should be in "Survey." Not sure about the crossed out poll. Also I would change "I have moved it here due to its length. XXX" to "It has been moved here due to its length." J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 17:36, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
You're right. I didn't realise there were !votes in the table (yours and Symphony Regalia's) - I thought it was some sort of source analysis. I've removed all !votes from the table, except for User:BrocadeRiverPoems's !vote. She struck it through here. I've also changed that sentence in the way you suggested. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 19:01, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Valignano describes"

Is Valignano the source for this? I though Valignano didn’t write about Yasuke? It is also interesting that the pronoun 'he' is not referring to neither of the two men mentioned in this sentence. Tinynanorobots (talk) 12:14, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Lockley in Britannica says the primary source is Ōta Gyūichi, and also Tsujiuchi [21] mentions Gyūichi's Shinchō Kōki. Perhaps we could replace the sources currently cited (both in Japanese: BuzzFeedJapan and Fujita) with Lockley and Tsujiuchi? Per WP:NONENG, "English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones". I'm now going to fix the "he" issue you noticed. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:44, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
Lockley also mentions Jesuit sources, but that usually means Luís Fróis and Father Lourenço, not Valignano. The Japanese HuffPost says pretty much what the wikiarticle says, but it is formatted differently than other quotes and possible refers to multiple persons and not just Yasuke.
Britannica does mention the scrubbing so it would support the section if the attribution to Valignano was removed. I don’t know if the other sources mention it. I will look at what other Japanese sources can be swapped out. Tinynanorobots (talk) 14:24, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
Britannica does mention the scrubbing. Actually it does: "Nobunaga could not trust the color of his skin and had his retainers scrub him". [22] Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:31, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
Isn't that what Tinyanorobots said? Did you miss that both of you said 'does' rather than 'does not' Nil Einne (talk) 22:09, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
Yep! I should get more sleep... Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:15, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
"Valignano describes" was included with this massive edit by Aroohcore. Since it contains at least one mistake ("Valignano describes") Aroohcore and editors interested in Yasuke should check it carefully to see if there are any more. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:36, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
Valignano, despite apparently being a great epistoler, doesn't really mention Yasuke. He mentions being given cafres; sending two to a church in Lisbon, and keeping one, presumably Yasuke, to himself. The published, contemporaneous Jesuit letters mention Nobunaga having Yasuke strip to his waist, but do not mention washing or scrubbing. Neither does Tsujiuchi: When Nobunaga saw him, he ordered the kokudo (black fellow) to take off his clothes suspecting that his black skin color was painted.. There is, however, a later (post-1744 at least) secondary source which does, apparently, include this aspect: キリスト教に関する導入書、すなわち日本宣教の始まりとその上長たちについての書　1549年8月15日から1744年8月31日まで. I've not yet found a copy, so cannot confirm the contents.
In the meantime, Tsujiuchi fails to verify the specificity of the content. Rotary Engine talk 13:09, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
The massive edit by @Aroohcore I mentioned also added that Yasuke's confirmed period of stay in Japan was very short - about three years, from 17 August 1579 to 21 June 1582 and cited excite.co.jp as the source. If I'm not mistaken, the author is anonymous ("Japaaan") and it's a WP:SPS we shouldn't rely on; besides, it doesn't support the "17 August" date. Lockley says that "Yasuke first enters the historical record in 1581". So I'm going to remove the dubious information and replace it with The earliest known record of Yasuke dates back to 1581 (or something similar) sourced with Lockley. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:52, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
I have just noticed that the article also contains In 1579, Yasuke arrived in Japan in the service of the Italian Jesuit missionary Alessandro Valignano. This is contradicted by Lockley's "The earliest known record of Yasuke dates back to 1581". Two sources are cited: Leupp, which doesn't support the content, and "Crasset 1925, p. 384 (number of frames 207)", which I can't verify. Could someone please check? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:00, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
It's possible that both "Yasuke arrived in 1579" and "the earliest known record dates back to 1581" are correct.
Jean Crasset has Alessandro Valignano arriving in Japan in 1579 to relieve Cabral as the Jesuit Visitor in Japan; on Frame 202 of the Japanese document. The characters for the year are 千五百七十九年. The same is on page 420 of Crasset's original French here, which may be easier than the Japanese. It is commonly assumed that Yasuke was with him; and sources to that effect should not be difficult to find.
The event mentioned on Frame 207 is Yasuke's meeting with Nobunaga, which occurred in 1581. The corresponding section in the French original is on page 430. That section describes "a Moor valet brought from India".
The first known mention of an (unnamed, presumed) Yasuke in the Jesuit letters is in Luis Frois letter written 14 April 1581. The writing of this letter predates the Japanese records - Ota Gyuichi's Shincho Koki and Ietada's Diary - so unless there is something earlier, Lockley's date for the "earliest known record" appears correct. Rotary Engine talk 15:04, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that both information could be true, but (if I'm not mistaken) we lack a source for the first one: we know that he was in Valignano's service, but we don't know if he came to Japan with Valignano in 1579 or if he joined him later. We would need a source for that, wouldn't we? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:06, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
Concur that we should not, ourselves, take Valignano's arrival in 1579 (Crasset F202/p420) and his having "a Moor valet which he brought from India" (Crasset F207/p430) and synthesise that to "Yasuke arrived in Japan in 1579". If that is to be included, we should find a source which directly supports it. Rotary Engine talk 20:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

He came with portuguese people

He didn't come with Italians he came with Portuguese and one of the guys was Italian 2001:818:E924:D000:2DA2:4B14:59AF:E0BC (talk) 07:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. Do you have a reliable source to confirm that? Commander Keane (talk) 08:37, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
I removed "Italian" from the lead. I believe they came on a Portuguese ship, but am not sure. It is more important that Yasuke came with the Jesuits, than the nationality of the ship. I believe most of the Jesuits were Portuguese, but not all. Usually, when the Portuguese are referred to in this context, it means merchants. Thank you. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:44, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Talk:Yasuke/Archive_8&oldid=1256370065"