Talk:Winston Churchill as a writer

Winston Churchill as a writer is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured list on February 17, 2025.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 12, 2016	Featured list candidate	Promoted

Bibliographies Low‑importance

	Books portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bibliographies, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bibliographies on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BibliographiesWikipedia:WikiProject BibliographiesTemplate:WikiProject BibliographiesBibliographies
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Books

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Books. To participate in the project, please visit its page, where you can join the project and discuss matters related to book articles. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the relevant guideline for the type of work.BooksWikipedia:WikiProject BooksTemplate:WikiProject BooksBook

Novels Low‑importance

	Novels portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Novels, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to novels, novellas, novelettes and short stories on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the general Project discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions.NovelsWikipedia:WikiProject NovelsTemplate:WikiProject Novelsnovel
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Lists Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Moved, 17 October 2024, to Winston Churchill as a writer, see discussion.
Withdrawn, 23 November 2024, to Writing career of Winston Churchill, see discussion.

Archives

Archive 1

This page has archives. Sections older than 21 days may be automatically archived by when more than 5 sections are present.

Are There Men on the Moon?

I wrote a short article on an interesting Churchill essay which received considerable media attention in 2017 titled Are There Men on the Moon? Would it be appropriate to add it here and if so where? Thanks! WatkynBassett (talk) 19:36, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Try merging it. Catlover1519 (talk) 21:43, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I Approve Merging. Catlover1519 (talk) 23:48, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the merge proposal, given that there is distinct academic discussion of Are There Men on the Moon?. Klbrain (talk) 11:05, 22 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose as well. The essay is discussed in-depth by many independent and reliable sources. WatkynBassett (talk) 20:52, 22 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 17 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus to move per WP:NATURAL along with Winston Churchill as painter to Winston Churchill as a painter per WP:CONSISTENT. (closed by non-admin page mover) Raladic (talk) 19:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Winston Churchill as writer → Winston Churchill as a writer – "Winston Churchill as writer" is confusing and makes no sense. It would make more sense to be titled "Winston Churchill as a writer". 92.9.187.249 (talk) 19:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC) 92.9.187.249 (talk) 19:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - as with Winston Churchill as painter, it is fine as it is. KJP1 (talk) 04:47, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Current title makes no grammatical sense. estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:21, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. "as a writer" is a more WP:NATURAL way of stating the list's subject. Although I couldn't find any other articles with a similar titling format aside from Winston Churchill as painter, the proposed spelling is grammatically correct and probably more likely for readers to search up. Also, saying that it is "fine as-is" isn't a policy based argument. Fathoms Below (talk) 12:39, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom, current doesn't make sense. Although both this and Winston Churchill as painter should be consistent with each other and moved together as there are simultaneous RMs by the IP but they weren't combined. Dank Jae 17:27, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Comments have carried on after closing at Talk:Winston Churchill as a painter § Requested move 17 October 2024, which had less support than this RM. Ham II (talk) 06:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 November 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) ~~ Jessintime (talk) 16:29, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– The indefinite article is unnecessary and unhelpful. Article titles should prioritise conciseness and clarity while remaining natural and grammatically correct. The previous titles were already succinctly communicating the subject matter without additional linguistic clutter.

The phrase "as writer" or "as painter" is not ungrammatical but rather reflective of a common stylistic choice that is clear and idiomatic in its own right. Similar constructions are frequently used in literature and academia: for instance, David Cannadine's Churchill: The Statesman As Artist. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 22:24, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak oppose: Maybe it's a stylistic choice, but it's one I am not familiar with. To me, the proposed titles seem ungrammatical. Perhaps it's a WP:ENGVAR matter. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These are titles, not prose. It's the very same reason the United States article isn't named The United States. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 22:49, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"United States" is the name of a place. The current article titles are descriptions, not proper nouns, and therefore should be held to the same grammatical rules as prose. estar8806 (talk) ★ 03:02, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Titles, by their very nature, are not beholden to the full grammatical conventions of sentence structure. Adding the indefinite article introduces unnecessary length and reduces the titles' readability without offering any substantive improvement in comprehension. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 16:52, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously? We had this discussion less than a month ago. Is there nothing else at all you can find to do with your time? It's not surprising we have such a problem with incivility when some editors are such obvious so-and-sos. DuncanHill (talk) 23:31, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't even notice how recent the previous RMs were. I suggest a speedy procedural close and to wait a year or so before revisiting the decision. If something about the previous RMs was improper, the way to appeal them is WP:MR, not WP:RM. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:34, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There haven't been enough RMs here to justify a moratorium. Nor was there any actual consensus to move the page in the prior request, so if this RM is indeed closed procedurally, I'll take the previous move to MR. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 16:59, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There was one oppose and three supports, plus the nom. You say that isn't consensus, the closer says it is. DuncanHill (talk) 17:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's hardly a consensus, and the RM ought to have been relisted. The arguments in favour were extremely weak. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sez you. So take it to WP:MR. DuncanHill (talk) 17:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, seriously, so assume good faith please. I wasn't involved in the prior discussion. You could just as easily direct your question of Is there nothing else at all you can find to do with your time? to the IP who introduced this move in the first place. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 16:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The IP wasn't revisiting something decided very recently. DuncanHill (talk) 17:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose - agree with Duncan Hill's above question: seriously? The present title is far more WP:NATURAL than the proposed/former titles. The proposed/former titles aren't substantially more concise to justify sacrificing naturalness. The example cited by the nom is a proper noun as the title of a work: the current titles are descriptive titles and not proper "names" per se. Also support a speedy procedural close per BarrelProof. estar8806 (talk) ★ 03:01, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, seriously. The indefinite article in these titles is redundant and counterproductive, cluttering the title without adding value. Article titles are not casual conversational statements. NATURAL encourages titles that reflect how topics are commonly referred to in reliable sources. Phrases like Winston Churchill as writer or Winston Churchill as painter are more idiomatic and consistent with established usage in similar contexts, including academic and literary references. Cannadine demonstrates that this structure is perfectly natural and widely understood. Adding the indefinite article does not make the titles more "natural", it simply makes them longer and unnecessarily verbose. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

close nothing has changed in the last month—blindlynx 21:11, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 23 November 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: withdrawn. (non-admin closure) ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 23:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– WP:TITLECON, far more common formulation per similar titles. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 18:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OPPOSE Now it's just getting silly and disruptive. DuncanHill (talk) 19:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's absolutely nothing "silly and disruptive" about it. It's an infinitely more logical title format. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This was just discussed a short while ago. The current title is already WP:CONCISE. Theparties (talk) 19:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These are new titles that were not discussed at all. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - have we really no better contributions to make than this? KJP1 (talk) 21:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - again I agree with @DuncanHill. This second proposal being made just 24 hours after the first was closed screams WP:GAMENAME to me. In any case, the proposed titles could be misleading as most similar titles that the nom mentioned are about a subject's principal career(s) (eg. Business career of Donald Trump, US Senate career of Joe Biden. At the very least, Churchill's painting was only a hobby. His writing could be considered a "career", but I think it's best this two titles remain WP:CONSISTENT with each other. The current titles are more also WP:CONCISE. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merge proposal

I propose merging Winston Churchill as a writer into Winston Churchill. Catlover1519 (talk) 21:36, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose: this is a featured list with so much content that it cannot be merged in the Churchill article. WatkynBassett (talk) 20:54, 22 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]