Talk:Will Bouma

Better Local Government Act

Although it's currently a redirect, this is a very notable piece of legislation and I'd say it's encyclopedically relevant that the Conservatives all voted to negate the constitution. Simonm223 (talk) 17:46, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

It is not necessary to call individual attention to this in the standalone BLP of every individual Conservative MPP in addition to the coverage that we already have about it, whether that's in the election article or as a standalone article of its own, in the more appropriate and relevant contexts. I hated Bill 5 and Bill 33 with a blinding white rage too, but Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopedia, not a platform for anybody's personal opinions about whether it was a good or bad thing — so it is not necessary for every individual Conservative MPP to have it brought up in their own standalone biographies. Ford and Caroline Mulroney are the only two MPPs whose articles genuinely warrant content about the Better Local Government Act as things stand right now — the grounds for mentioning it in any other MPP's article aren't "it's possible to verify how he voted", but "his support of the legislation was important for some reason, such as that he drafted the legislation in the first place or made an important and newsworthy comment to the media about it". And no, not every piece of legislation always needs its own standalone article about it either, particularly when there's already an article about the election in which it can be contextualized — at this point, the grounds for a standalone article about the Act itself would be if the content expands to overwhelm the election article, not any sort of "it automatically has to have a standalone article because it exists" rule. Bearcat (talk) 18:47, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

I disagree. This is an exceptional circumstance and I think it bears noting as being encyclopedically relevant to an otherwise non-notable back-bencher that he supported the nullification of free expression rights of Ontario citizens. Simonm223 (talk) 19:22, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

There's nothing exceptional about a government backbencher voting to support government legislation. Given that it wasn't a free vote, caucus discipline essentially required him to support the legislation unless he was so strongly against it that he's willing to cross the floor to another party over it. And again, I didn't like the legislation either — but "supprted the nullification of free expression rights" is a loaded statement of opinion, not a WP:NPOV summary of the legislation that belongs in a Wikipedia article. Bearcat (talk) 19:26, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

That is a statement of fact. The notwithstanding clause is specifically a nullification of rights, and in this instance will be used to nullify free expression rights. It's precisely, factually, what he did. Or are you suggesting reality is in violation of WP:NPOV with regard to Tory back benchers? Simonm223 (talk) 19:31, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

It is not our role to express an editorial opinion over whether use of the notwithstanding clause is morally justifiable or not — legally, the province did have the right to use it, so it's not Wikipedia's job to have or express any opinions of our own about whether doing so was morally right or wrong. Our role here is to be strictly objective, not to have editorial opinions. If you want Will Bouma to be crucified in the public sphere for voting for it, go get yourself a Blogspot — I was opposed to the legislation too, but Wikipedia is not the venue for my personal opinions about it either. Bearcat (talk) 19:36, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm strongly with Bearcat on this one, this is pretty clear WP:COATRACKING and WP:SYNTH. The two sources in use don't mention this one backbencher at all. Writing up an article about the BLGA wouldn't be out of the question, but noting how every OPC MPP voted on it is not relevant (MPPs are expected to toe the party line) and the POV that it's a "nullification of rights" is just that: POV. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:39, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm also not impressed with the "condemned for his bias against natives" bit, sourced as it is to a column clearly identified as opinion. I did not find these statements repeated in any kind of reliable source; the only source I found discussing Bouma's interaction with indigenous peoples at all is this one, which is kind of glowing. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:48, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi; I used the two rows times article (a local native newspaper) in regards to the "bias against natives" part because that was the original source and was the first hand interview. The story was subsequently referenced in a Toronto Star article written by Shree Paradkar. "Bias" was admittedly conjecture on my part, but I do think it is clearly there in the source article and given the scope of natives making up such a large part of Bouma's constituency it felt relevant and not a leap. I wasn't attempting any character assassination (not that anyone said that). I felt referencing the original first hand source interview was a better route to go than the opinion piece in the Star about the prime source interview. As the story was carried over to the country's largest newspaper it felt relevant to include.

My personal opinion, for what it's worth, is the constitutional crisis caused by the PC's threatened use of the Notwithstanding clause as much as needed, and in the case of the better local government act IS a major news story and thus has historical value in having it recorded as part of the record of the sitting MPP's, especially those that voted in favour of it. I tried to be careful to not say that Bouma acted alone or made any personal comments, only that the party unanimously voted to use this... I was there for the midnight legislature session and if I wanted to get dickish about it I would have said that Bouman spent the first hour and half until the speaker kicked us all out watching youtube videos on his phone (which he and many other PC's did) instead of paying attention to you know... Democracy and the rights he's sworn to uphold, lol. Again, irrelevant but I do think that the constitutional crisis caused over this matter will wind up being top five news stories in Canada for 2018 and thus should be referenced... The other 32 bills he's voted on as much as they have caused discord would be overkill at this time, but this one I think should be included, and it is referenced as part of the Toronto municipal elections and under the article 33 of the charter articles.

Anyway; I'm the novice here so I'll happily defer to the more experienced group at large, but did want to give some feedback as to why I attempted to include them. Thanks everyone for caring and the work you all put into wikipedia. Fsmythe (talk) 00:34, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Ah; minor post script; I can't verify if the original Bill 5 that kicked this off was a free vote, but Ford did say that PC MPP's would be free to vote as they saw fit on Bill 31 which included the Notwithstanding clause, thus I do think that how even backbenchers voted on such an important invocation of that clause is relevant to each MPP. Should the article grow to numerous sub headings would it warrant a full section.. probably not, but I do think in this instance it is worth recording. I would also suggest that if ultimately limiting this matter to the key players Steve Clark (who introduced Bill 31) and Speaker of the House Ted Arnott (who ruled against a challenge that Bills 5 and 31 were the same because bill 31 had article 33 of the charter attached to it) would also be relevant to have comments about this matter included in their bios alongside Ford and Mulroney Fsmythe (talk) 00:41, 21 September 2018 (UTC)