Talk:Whitewell

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Map

I don't know how to change the map of the Lancashire council area. Whitewell is not where the red dot is. It is further over, on the river!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.90.165 (talk) 22:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

History

It would probably be worth adding that in the poll tax of 1377 Whitewell is not listed as a township but Radholme was. Hence Radholme Laund was then considered the name of this township.. And Radholme Laund does still exist, see OS maps, but is now only a farmhouse with 3 large barns, about 1km SSW of Whitewell. Should I add words to that effect Kildwyke (talk) 16:00, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source for your claim? I'm not sure that Whitewell was ever the name of this township. As I just made a little clearer, Whitewell is in the civil parish of Bowland Forest Low and I believe the CP was created from a township of the same name in the 19th century. Radholme Laund was originally a deer park, see: Browsholme Hall. I suppose that it may have given its name to a township that was later replaced, but without a source to explain what happened, who's to say that Whitewell was in it? --Trappedinburnley (talk) 19:08, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. All I have is the Poll tax list. And I can't extrapolate history from that can I ? It guess its conjecture. The Poll Tax Register of Staincliffe and Ewcross (http://www.davidkidd.net/Kidd_Name/Poll_Tax_of_Staincliffe_and_Ewcross_1379.pdf ) lists 25 taxpayers (married men and single women) in Radholme. Its very interesting: William Colthyrst paid 2 shillings in taxes; Richard Talbot paid 12 pence; Thomas Page a fletcher paid 6d; the rest paid 4d each --Ah I see now I have already started researching my own page on Radholme, but taking your comments into consideration, I see I have a tough job to make one ! Kildwyke (talk) 21:08, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure we need a Radholme article just yet, but existing articles in this area could certainly benefit from some expansion. I've been having a bit of look around and have a few more thoughts. As this article mentions, Radholme was listed in Domesday. Pastscape has a brief entry in which it is classified as a medieval deserted settlement. User:Manorial has mentioned it to me in the past (see:[1]), so he might know more. It seems that the supposed motte at Hall hill (marked on my map as Seed Hill plantation) may be relevant. Aerial photos of the area show an interesting feature approx 500m east of that location. I'm not sure, but don't think that the areas in poll tax register are townships (as in the subdivisions of ancient parishes), possibly names of settlements. Also, the unrefenced Staincliffe Wapentake article, mentions Browseholme as a parish, but it also includes the parish of Whalley was part of it which certainly isn't correct.--Trappedinburnley (talk) 11:32, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for you help. Re Browsholme, I have drawn maps of historic Craven and in my studies found a map "Parishes as they were before 1882" at genuki that labels what we now call Whitewell as "Browseholme (extra parochial)"; the adjascent is labelled "Whalley (Lancs)". On that map the name Whitewell is used for a smaller detached parish up between Slaidburn and Gt Mitton. However on two other maps I found this detached area is left unlabelled - a mystery indeed! Detatched areas are not unique for Gisburn has a similar. Also "extra parochial" is not unique for Sawley is one. One reason this map is still confusing is that it outlines Dioscese parishes on a county map. Discocese maps and county maps differ in many other areas too. In fact they differ even more in 2013 than they did then. I think this is at present too confusing for a web page, but I'm thankful to sort it out better because I share ancestry with the family named Brand' listed in the Poll Tax of Radholme. Their Overlord took every last one of them to Ulster in the 17th century to farm his new lands in Fermanagh and Im trying to determine who that Lord was, I suspect it was George Monck, 1st Duke of Albemarle since he was 1st Lord of Bowland 1661-1670 and Lord Lieutenant of Ireland 1660–1662. Kildwyke (talk)

While the parish map takes a little getting used too, the outlines of present day civil parishes can be recognised in some places. I believe the detached area you mention is in fact Harrop, I've also run into it before (See:User_talk:Manorial#HARROP). I'm fairly confident that initially all the forests would have been extra parochial (not part of a parish) and ecclesiastically linked to the chapel at the castle they belonged to. At some point (I assume as feudalism wained), they where merged into neighbouring parishes with the exception of a few small areas. I don't know much about Sawley. I had forgotten that a small part of Whalley parish crossed the border into Yorkshire here. The interesting point it raises with Bowland is while it seems Bowland Forest High became linked to Slaidburn parish. Bowland Forest Low (minus it seems, Browseholme) along with Bowland-with-Leagram (the part of forest historicaly in Lancashire) became a detached part of Whalley. Just imagine if Monck had taken your ancestors to Carolina :) --Trappedinburnley (talk) 16:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PS Skipton castle's website has a copy of Whitaker's History of the Deanery of Craven.

PPS Whitewell would be in the area marked Whalley, not Browseholme.

My DNA branch of ancestors split off before Monck and only travelled as far as Settle.

I've found that the Whitewell Parish records started in 1861. Before that it was a chapel of ease called "Whitewell St Michael Chapelry in the Parish of Whalley" and their records cover 1713 to 1854 https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Whalley,_Lancashire The parish of Whalley includes nearly 40 churches and chapels.

Harrop and Whitewell

At genuki the name Whitewell is also used for a smaller detached parish up between Slaidburn and Gt Mitton. However on two other maps I found this detached area is left unlabelled - a mystery indeed! (talk)

I believe the detached area you mention is in fact Harrop, I've also run into it before (See:User_talk:Manorial#HARROP). I'm fairly confident that initially all the forests would have been extra parochial (not part of a parish) and ecclesiastically linked to the chapel at the castle they belonged to. At some point (I assume as feudalism wained), they where merged into neighbouring parishes with the exception of a few small areas. (talk) 16:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I will tell Genuki to correct their map under discussion. (talk)

Wait a minute I have now found another map that considers Harrop as part of Whitewell despite the areas being disjointed. If you search for Harrop on http://maps.familysearch.org it takes you to Whitewell and gives a map showing Harrop as a disjointed part of Whitewell parish. It says “Other places in the parish [of Whitewell] include: Harrop, Bowland Forest Low, and Harrop Fold.”

The old OS map they show there shows Harrop Fold as a hamlet. Also a few houses around Harrop Hall. Also is marked Harrop Lodge and Cockleth House The current OS map shows the same names but less buildings. And Google maps shows Harrop Fold now containing only Higher Harrop Farm. And Harrop Hall also looks like a farm. Kildwyke (talk) 14:09, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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